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View Full Version : Alternatives when you can't carry?


baddarryl
February 1, 2012, 07:48 PM
What have you guys found are the best non lethal alternatives to carry when unable to CC due to regulations and what not? Thanks.

ProShooter
February 1, 2012, 08:34 PM
sabre pepper spray

SHNOMIDO
February 1, 2012, 08:46 PM
Here in IL ive gotten in the habit of holding my car key in my fist.

I should get a rape whistle.

with the attitude turned off- you'd probably be best served with a high quality pepper spray.

Martial arts is good too. Wish i could say i practiced, maybe someday. I cant afford it right now.

Dwight55
February 1, 2012, 08:59 PM
I have a little insignificant looking "Old Timer" 3 blade pocket knife.

The 2 1/2 in blade on it can be practically razor sharp, . . . and has a super sharp point.

More than once it has been opened, palmed, and I go on about my business. It is unfortunately only an "up close an in your face" weapon, . . . but I always figured that a sharp knife was a better defense than any vocabulary if it really got down to the knitty gritty.

I'll also open it, . . . drop it point first into my shirt pocket, . . . and it is handy at that point.

An old WW2 sailor from Oakland, Ca. taught me about it.

May God bless,
Dwight

Don H
February 1, 2012, 09:12 PM
Cane.

dev_null
February 1, 2012, 09:57 PM
Not non-lethal, but even without a CCW you can often carry a knife up to 5" (depending on state/local laws).

Jeremiah/Az
February 1, 2012, 10:24 PM
A good bright tactical, I hate that overused word, flashlite will blind a person temporarily, possibly giving you a chance to get away. I tried mine in broad daylite & I saw big spots for 10 minutes!:eek:

BlackFeather
February 1, 2012, 10:32 PM
If I am unable to carry a dedicated weapon, I usually don't bother with anything else. I have a bandanna, I know how to use it like a fighting chain. It's not perfect, and I'd likely never use it. I have a lot of Martial Arts/Combatives training so I don't feel uncomfortable.

icedog88
February 2, 2012, 06:20 AM
Hide Away Knife. Great quality and several different carry options. This company makes great stuff.

chewie146
February 2, 2012, 09:47 AM
Knife, awareness...just a change of weapon.

Don H
February 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
"non lethal alternatives"? I think just about anything that could serve as a weapon would likely be lethal under the correct (even if rare) circumstances. "Less lethal" would probably be a more accurate term.

brickeyee
February 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
A number of the newer ball point pens are extremely sharp.

aarondhgraham
February 2, 2012, 04:21 PM
It only has a 1.25" blade,,,
But it's very sharp.

It's on my key chain and it comes to hand very readily,,,
If someone were to physically assault me,,,
I'm hoping to get one good swipe,,,
Preferably in the femoral area,,,
Or wherever big veins will be.

Any time I am walking towards my car,,,
it doesn't matter day or night,,,
That knife is in my hand,,,
It's my key chain fob.

In February following 911,,,
I had to fly to Boston.

I was not happy about getting on a plane at that time,,,
Especially as I knew they wouldn't allow me to have my "weapons".

So I wore Levi's with the heaviest trophy buckle I owned,,,
The belt is a weapon most people don't consider,,,
But as a short flail it's quite effective.

Most people will laugh at the thought,,,
But I will take on just about any box knife wielder,,,
If I have 18 or so inches of leather with a big buckle on the end of it.

My Black Belt has turned gray from 30+ years of disuse,,,
But I do recall the effective belt/sash techniques Mr. Chan taught us.

I may be old and getting fatter by the minute,,,
But I am never ever totally unarmed. ;)

Just wait until I start to use a cane. :eek:

Aarond

.

Kevin Rohrer
February 2, 2012, 05:14 PM
I keep a very low profile and am at Condition Bright Yellow. ;)

irish52084
February 3, 2012, 01:06 AM
If possible, I carry a knife. If that's a no go, then it's just me and my terrible fighting skills. Years of training and I'm still a bad boxer and a worse wrestler. Oh well, I fight dirty, so maybe that will help.:p

TheNocturnus
February 3, 2012, 02:19 AM
Luckily, I live in Missouri and have lenient gun laws. I have only been carrying since April 2011 and don't see myself giving it up. I learned very effective self defense techniques from a former Navy seal. I learned S.C.A.R.S. if any of you are familiar with it, than you know how effective it can be.

Unfortunately, a disc in my lower back has degenerated and herniated so bad that I can no longer work or go a day without excruciating pain. So hand to hand combat is really no longer an option for me.

Don P
February 3, 2012, 07:39 AM
What have you guys found are the best non lethal alternatives to carry when unable to CC due to regulations and what not? Thanks

The places I go that I can't carry are well protected by LE. ( Court house,LE sub station,) other than that I carry. Can't even get a 1" blade pocket knife through security so there or no options in that situation

markj
February 3, 2012, 03:31 PM
I once stuck a guy with a pencil, he was wanting to re arrange my face....

In public, I take a dog on a leash :) But really, most folks see my smile and they smile too. :)

A good walking stick does the trick, a shelaylee is in order as I do have one and yes it is kelly green with little knobby items upon it that will leave a mark on whatever encounters it....

egor20
February 3, 2012, 10:18 PM
Broke my leg a few years back doing dumb stuff and my wife got me one of these:

http://www.coldsteel-uk.com/store/irish-blackthorn-walking-stick-91pbs.jpg

Cold Steel Shillelagh




Still have the limp, and also the cane.

PADefenseTrainer
February 5, 2012, 03:09 PM
I typically carry a Leatherman Wave which I can expose a blade with one hand. Or I can use it as a kubaton if I keep i closed.

Also I fell in love with the Zebra F-701 Stainless Steel Ballpoint Pen I found at Staples a few years back. I carry it everywhere I go.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31aHbbEJ-AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

But it's hard to find lately.

By the way, just because it's not a gun does not mean it is "non lethal"

bk688
February 5, 2012, 08:42 PM
While I'd love to say Martial Arts is you best choice (helps keep you healthy too) Unfortunatly this is not true for most.

Why? Because most people attend a 1 1/2 hour class 2 times a week. Thats 3 hours a week. Lets think about this a bit.

The average highschol wrestler practices for 2 hours a day 5 days a week. I'd go so far as to say that 17 year old senior would kick the snot out of your karate/Jujitsu/etc. There is just not enough time to become proficient in martial arts unless you make a lifestile out of it.

I can vouch that karate does not beat wresteling, Got into a friendly bet with a guy at a party (I was 18 and 140 lbs he was 23 and 180ish). He had dozens karate trophies aroung his place (hed been doing karate since he was a kid). He kicked the crap out of me standing up, but the second I got him on the groung it was game over. That was out of somone who was extreamly proficient at karate.

Peperspray, tazer/pocket knife are generally the second best choices.

But the best by far: SITUATIONAL AWARNESS!!! See them coming, get out of the way!

JimPage
February 5, 2012, 08:50 PM
I guess I had the best of both worlds. I wrestled varsity in college and took Judo while in USAF. Of course, those were my younger days. Now, at 75, I depend heavily on weapons, as well a large dose of treachery, guile, and dirty tricks. :D

BlackFeather
February 5, 2012, 11:47 PM
bk688, while I don't want to start an argument, you prove you are only half right. Like you said, it was a friendly bet, and thus he wasn't determined to outright break something or punch you in the throat. You are indeed right that many who practice arts that are solely upright lack skill on the ground. I myself am one of those but that has simply been availability to train.

From a personal standpoint, knowing both is important. More importantly knowing to defend on both the ground and standing and getting away safely. For me, ground fighting defeats the purpose. You are purposely staying in contact with your opponent and while on the ground you are more susceptible to attacks from other people. As well, I'd rather not be in a position where my opponent can slam my head into anything more solid. Mats aren't on every floor. Just my opinions. :D

Yes, martial arts take a long time to gain ranks or be proficient, but in reality that's only a mindset issue. Learning to punch, block, and kick are the basics, you need only these. Knees and elbows are the same. In ground fighting you learn the different positions and basic locks. Once you know them it's only practice that makes them work. Just like shooting, you may know how to do it, but it's practice that makes you good. On the other side of things, Modern Combatives are a more "no-nonsense" choice based solely on defense and made to be taught in a timely manner.

Skans
February 8, 2012, 08:34 AM
Staying fit and knowing how to fight......dirty.......real dirty.

(Credit to Irish for saying this first.)

irish52084
February 8, 2012, 08:56 PM
The mental willingness to keep fighting and not give up is also an important tool, probably as much as martial skill. It doesn't take any skill to hit the groin, throat, eyes etc... It takes a willingness to harm, hurt, maim or kill your your attacker. To me, that's were fighting "dirty" comes into play.

It comes up in jiu-jitsu all the time, can you pull of the movements necessary when someone is attacking you. It's a lot tougher to submit or control someone when they are throwing punches with hostile intent. That's why it's best 90% of the time to keep yourself on your feet and control the fight from there if possible. Once your on the ground all sorts of bad things can happen, especially if more than one threats are present.

flintshooter
February 8, 2012, 10:51 PM
I might carry my tomahawk. Makes a very serious statement.;)

BlackFeather
February 8, 2012, 10:58 PM
What kind? Any training with it?

silentargus
February 8, 2012, 11:20 PM
Pepper spray is my pick. Depending on state/local laws you may face restrictions on that, too; in NJ, for example, canisters with more than about 3 seconds' worth of spray time are about as legal as bazookas... so you'd pretty much be carrying the pepper spray equivalent of a single derringer. :rolleyes:

Make sure to get a can with a stream nozzle, though. You'll have to buy a few and practice aiming with them (~$10 a pop for the little ones), but they have more range and are much less susceptible to little problems like a change in the breeze turning your own weapon against you. Ergonomics are another consideration... some local laws might prohibit the 'scary weapon' looking things like Kimber's Pepper Blasters, or other canisters/sprayers that may or may not be easier to use.

A good, solid multitool also makes a superb fist-filler (most of them don't have quick-opening knives), but everyone should have one of those anyhow. Not having a multitool is like leaving home without your pants on. Mine is a Leatherman Sideclip- the predecessor of what is now being called the Wave (same basic set of tools, but no polymer inserts or locking tabs. Instead of those it had a pocket clip and in/cm marks so it could be used as a ruler when opened flat).

With multitools, though, you run the risk of turning into that guy/gal who everyone always asks for help doing silly little things they could have done themselves if they had the smarts to carry their own. You've been warned. :p

Whatever alternative(s) you settle on, try to find the least 'scary looking' ones you can. Chances are if you're in a place that won't let you CCW (college campus, crappy state, NYC, etc...) they'll bust your chops about anything that even remotely looks like it could be used as a weapon.

TheGoldenState
February 8, 2012, 11:22 PM
Honestly people should know how to fight, or at least throw a proper punch, and know how to shoot (and stuff) a takedown.

It is the most primal form of self-defense, and it is as important as any method, much moreso than a vast majority of others, imo.

Steviewonder1
February 8, 2012, 11:37 PM
Fox Labs stream Pepper spray and a very nice spring assisted opening stainless steel pocket knife. When carrying, it is a G-19 with Cor-Bon DPX.

flintshooter
February 9, 2012, 08:42 AM
Blackfeather, a reproduction hex head throwing hawk. 15 years at the rendezvous games and split cards and leaves pretty regular. I do not really carry it for protection, just adding my thoughts but, I would think it is something that would make a goon think twice.

Skans
February 9, 2012, 09:24 AM
Once your on the ground all sorts of bad things can happen, especially if more than one threats are present.

There are times I like taking it to the ground, especially if someone is an equally good or better fighter than I am and has reach on me - I'm taking them down....and then I'll use whatever my opponent presents to me first. My preference is using chokes and smothering, if possible. Some folks prefer arm bars, groin attacks, taking out joints if possible.

BlackFeather
February 9, 2012, 03:17 PM
Blackfeather, a reproduction hex head throwing hawk. 15 years at the rendezvous games and split cards and leaves pretty regular. I do not really carry it for protection, just adding my thoughts but, I would think it is something that would make a goon think twice.

Nice, and impressive skill. I don't throw tomahawks, usually. I throw knives for the most part, still don't think I could be hitting cards. Then again I'm a bit out of practice lately. I prefer to fight with hawks, just my preference.

irish52084
February 9, 2012, 09:41 PM
Taking it t the ground is all fine and dandy with a singular opponent, but not usually a good idea with multiple opponents or if the opponents friends are near.

MoBart
February 9, 2012, 11:08 PM
My buddy once told me.his gramp used to take a length of pipe and.roll a newsnpaper around it, and it looked like a paper. Nobody reads a paper anymore but the point is, anything can be a weapon, or any weapon can be disquiesed (sp?). I always carry a pocket clip kne hand or assisted opening pocket knife. Not much more then a last dirch holly crap type weapon but usefull as hell for a million other things. Im a Marine and the most usefuk part of the MCMAP was the improvised weapons classes, what ever is at hand, can fill your hand. Be aware of your surroundings, what and who are n them, and how they can he used or manipulated to hinder and attack and effect an escape. Or, in rural southe1 english, drop ya a big ol' rock on that ****heads foot and run like hell, lol. The flashlight mentioned before is a geeat idea to, blind an assailent and if worst gets to worst, it can be an effective mpact weapon. Most have some form of ridges deaigned as an impact device. Remember, self defense means stopping and or deterring a threat, and the legal afterwords crap will demand reasonable action on your part at all times. On the other hand, at the end.of every day, Id take judgment by 12 then transportantion by 6

Gbro
February 9, 2012, 11:34 PM
This is a handy to have close item where a firearm isn't allowed or not old enough to have a carry permit.
This will shoot a heavy stream up to 20 ft. and very little chance in it coming back at you.
And this isn't my idea! ;)

Willie Sutton
February 11, 2012, 01:13 AM
Another fine product from our friends at Kimber:

http://store.kimberamerica.com/Products/tabid/67/CategoryID/21/Default.aspx


FAR better than any spray.
Likely better than any .380 for an instant stop.

Choice of guards in many finer penal establishments.


There's a more professional firearm-looking version that it the real professional choice, but these work great. Two shots, pyrotechnically projected, no chance of spraying yourself, and very accurate. More like a pistol than an aerosol.



Willie

.

farmerboy
February 12, 2012, 11:23 AM
dont go if you dont have to

Glenn E. Meyer
February 12, 2012, 11:44 AM
Wasp spray is not a good solution. It is a neurotoxin and dangerous. In some locales it is specifically illegal to use in any manner than intended. If you try to use it in a nonlethal situation and it does grievous harm - you won't look good.

Deliberately carrying it for a weapon would be frowned upon.

Search on the topic for references.

CaptainObvious
February 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
Remember folks that if you get yourself into a fight of any kind and especially if you use a weapon of any kind there will be consequences. The police might just come and arrest everyone then let the Prosecutor figure out the next steps. The jurisdiction I am in they run all serious assaults through a grand jury to determine the "next steps". Therefore, you want to avoid trouble. For example, I went to a movie theatre last night and when I pulled in there were some young characters who looked a bit thuggish (for a lack of a better word). So I drove right out the exit of the parking lot and found another movie theatre where I felt more comfortable. I know I can defend myself against these characters, but why would I want to try? I would rather just find another place to watch my movie.

So with that disclaimer stated I would say Fox Labs pepper spray is the best. If that doesnt distract someone then Im not sure what will. All of the departments here use it and its well known among many. If you do use it, then prepare to be scrutinized by the local authorities. You want to avoid using it...IMHO.

Clane
February 12, 2012, 04:11 PM
I'd say Good self defense Techniques are irreplaceable, a good pocket knife with a locking blade ( I carry a leatherman MUT) , But something that is very inconspicuous is the UZI tactical Pen 2 or the UZI tactical defender Pen.

hagar
February 12, 2012, 09:51 PM
Kimber Life-act, knife, green laser. I will go no place in the US again where I cannot carry, but I just visited South Africa in December after a 12 year absence. Sadly, one cannot take handguns there anymore. My mo was to carry Kimber in front right pocket, knife in left, and laser in rear right. I think a laser in the eye would discourage most muggers if you have something to back that up with. Thankfully I had a great time in SA with no incidents.

Erikbal
February 15, 2012, 01:38 PM
It's too bad pepper spray is illegal in NYS. A bunch of nonsense if you ask me, or else I'd be carrying that too and I'd have one more defense to use before having to shoot, or like this topic is about, when I can't carry..

riggins_83
February 15, 2012, 10:56 PM
Benchmade Griptilian.... :)

Webleymkv
February 16, 2012, 10:33 PM
While certainly not "non-lethal", I still carry my Kershaw Tanto Blur in many places and situations that I cannot carry a firearm. Also, while it's a bit bulky to carry on your person, a 4 D-Cell Maglite makes a fearsome weapon in the right hands.

KWalk313000
February 16, 2012, 11:57 PM
Kershaw Leek
I have a taser for nonlethal carry I forget the brand I dont carry it too often.
also a k-bar fixed blade and baseball bat in my truck

ltc444
February 17, 2012, 12:18 AM
My canes, Use two because of blown knees.
Note: The American Tae Kwando Association has a course in their use.

Mental attitude: Age and treachery will beat youth and skill any time.

Don't talk when confronted assess the situation then attack. Maim your first opponent then focus on the next. Generally, most members of a pack are followers, if the Alphas go down the betas will leave.

G.Gordon Liddy's discussions in his book Will expound this basic philosphy.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 18, 2012, 10:33 AM
I don't think OC is illegal in NYS but there are rules:

The New York State Self-Defense Spray Law - Penal Law 265.20
Requires special labeling and control of sales. In order to purchase this product the law states:

• You must be over the age of 18.
• You must have no history of felony convictions or assaults.
• Product must be purchased from an authorized dealer, pharmacy or gun dealer.
• You must complete a form with your name, address, birth date and signature.

If this isn't current, please correct me.

bikerbill
February 18, 2012, 04:12 PM
Even when I'm armed, I always have a knife with me ... make sure you know the laws in your area about the legal length of blade you can carry ... great tools and an excellent port in a non-gun storm ...

If my wife is with me, she always carries a Kimber two-shot pepper spray gizmo in her purse ...

FairWarning
February 25, 2012, 08:52 PM
Honestly people should know how to fight, or at least throw a proper punch, and know how to shoot (and stuff) a takedown.

It is the most primal form of self-defense, and it is as important as any method, much moreso than a vast majority of others, imo.

Absolutely. I think many gun lovers tend to neglect this. It's not enough to have read about those things or to have done them in the past, you need practice (not once every 5 years) so that your body is used to them. If you didn't get real fighting experience at some point in your youth or later on, at the very least you should make working out with a heavy bag part of your workout routine. You'd be surprised how much your wrists are challenged by pounding the heavy bag even if you lift weights all the time. Not the same as rapid impacts against something that doesn't want to move. You need to have your body programmed to naturally throw punches and KEEP throwing them (no 10 punches then rest routine, simulate a real boxing round).

I often wear so called "combat" gloves that contain steel shot in a padded area above the knuckles. They look very much like normal black leather gloves, but you'd definitely have more impact with every hit. Might be enough to turn the tide in your favor. Police style tactical gloves with protruding hard knuckles are not stealthy at all, although they could give the same kind of advantage.

Also, someone said it earlier----the mind, via treachery, is a weapon. :D

FairWarning
February 25, 2012, 08:56 PM
Remember folks that if you get yourself into a fight of any kind and especially if you use a weapon of any kind there will be consequences. The police might just come and arrest everyone then let the Prosecutor figure out the next steps. The jurisdiction I am in they run all serious assaults through a grand jury to determine the "next steps". Therefore, you want to avoid trouble. For example, I went to a movie theatre last night and when I pulled in there were some young characters who looked a bit thuggish (for a lack of a better word). So I drove right out the exit of the parking lot and found another movie theatre where I felt more comfortable. I know I can defend myself against these characters, but why would I want to try? I would rather just find another place to watch my movie.

Great example of the mind as a defensive weapon. The best way to win is...not having to fight. Street thugs have nothing to lose anyway...but most law abiding citizens have much to lose.

Derekc294
February 25, 2012, 08:59 PM
My best line of defense is my eyes and ears. Being aware of my surroundings. Also carry a small Gerber :)