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bk688
January 26, 2012, 02:36 PM
My local state park only allows squirrel hunting with a shot gun, hence relegating my 22lr to the range.

Then I thought, "Ya know, thats a good excuse to buy a new gun!" I like multi-purpose tools, so I looked into a .410 (the Circuit Judge to be exact). I figured I could use slugs on deer too. Then I found out that you cant use .410 on deer in Illinois. That doesn't necessarily exclude the Circuit Judge because I've heard SEVERAL times that there planning on changing the law to allow for pistol caliber cartridges (which they're defining as a rimmed, strait walled cartridge) used in rifles for deer hunting.

With this, I thought I had a few good questions:

1. How has everyone's experience with .410 on squirrels been?

2. (the more important one) Whats the logic (just speculate a bit) behind not allowing a .410 on deer? A 1/4 oz (109 grain) slug traveling 1900 fps cant be too far behind a 123 grain 7.62x39 traveling 2300 fps and from what I've read, using 7.62x39 and even .223 is fairly common in states that allow rifle hunting.

derekb
January 26, 2012, 03:16 PM
2. (the more important one) Whats the logic (just speculate a bit) behind not allowing a .410 on deer?

I don't know that it's fair to assume any logic at all went into that choice. Hunting regulations don't always make much sense.

PawPaw
January 26, 2012, 06:01 PM
My wife has a pump .410 shotgun that her Daddy bought for her when she was a pre-teen. She hunts squirrels with it and shoots hand-thrown skeet with it during our annual family skeet shoot. She's also got a 4" Model 28, but that's another topic altogether.

My lady has shot bushels of squirrels with that .410 shotgun, over the course of several decades. Use #6 lead shot and don't try to shoot them out of the tops of tall pine trees. The pattern gets a little sparse outside of 30 yards or so. Otherwise, it works just fine

jrothWA
January 26, 2012, 08:46 PM
3/4 of a ounce. You be somewhat limited in range for squirrels unless you get
close.

BUT the .410 will also, chamber hte .45 LC round, is that a option??

.410 doesn't meet minimum energy levels to humaely take a deer. that why some states invoke these minimums.

20 ga., is better as you can get slug barrels to handle deer.

Good luck deciding.

Cowboy_mo
January 26, 2012, 09:32 PM
I have quit using my .410 for squirrels for several reasons. First, it is very difficult to find any ammo around here except #4 shot which provides very few pellets for a pattern and the darn things are expensive.

MO used to prohibit the use of .410 slugs for deer hunting but that changed 2-3 years ago. Fortunately, MO has allowed the use of centerfire rifles (.243 and up) forever so I never really cared about slug hunting.:D

If I have to shotgun hunt for the squirrels (certain conservation areas and when the trees are full of green leaves) I use the 20 guage.

hogdogs
January 26, 2012, 09:54 PM
BUT the .410 will also, chamber hte .45 LC round, is that a option??
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
NEGATIVE A .45 Colt may May fit in the chamber but to fire it in a gun not designated for their use is a KABOOM waitin' to happen...

Some .45 Colt chambers handle a .410 of either length...

Brent

SRE
January 26, 2012, 09:55 PM
My old Iver Johnson .410 and myself have taken plenty of squirrels. You do have to get closer to them obviously. For me it makes for a more interesting hunt. #6 shot to #4 is what I use.

A trick that is proficient in squirrel hunting: When a squirrel is on the base of a tree (from the ground up to where the tree starts to branch out) and sees you it will usually run slightly up the tree but more so go to the back, it go 180 degrees around to the other side. If you have a stick or rock near, throw is past the tree around to the back where the squirrel is. Almost all the time, it will come back around to your side so you can take a shot. This tip has helped me, especially when hunting with a .410 bore as you can get closer in between the time from when the squirrel goes to the back of the tree to when you throw your object and it comes back to your side.

Good luck, safe hunting.

KenL
January 26, 2012, 10:07 PM
I used a .410 for squirrels a lot when I was a kid. Got lots of them,, bunnies and a couple of ruffed grouse and pheasants too. H&R single shot. It was fun. I used 3" shells, 7 1/2 shot, and got relatively close.

Maybe that's something for me to try again. I haven't fired that gun in years.

Keg
January 26, 2012, 10:46 PM
My cousin told me..when he was younger..he shot 2 different deer with a 410 slug....Both ran off and were not recovered....

bk688
January 26, 2012, 11:02 PM
jrothWA

DON'T PUT A .45 LC IN A .410 CHAMBER!!!!!!! Check out the Rossi/Taurus Circuit Judge which is specifically chambered for both. Check it out on Cheaperthandirt.com under the shotgun tap. Its a revolving shotgun.



As far as a .410 having enough energy to drop a deer, thats more about shot placement than anything isn't it? I have a co-worker who's father gets varmint tags for deer (Lucky SOB can shoot them with whatever he wants because its technically not hunting) and has dropped a few deer with a .410. He said the were about 25 yards away, but it dropped them just like a 12 gauge. The experience is limited though because he usually uses a .30-06. Again, because it's not hunting, he's not bound by the whole "no rifle/caliber restriction" hunting laws.
========And yes, he did run that by the conservation officer.===========

bqglock
January 26, 2012, 11:25 PM
A .45 Colt may May fit in the chamber but to fire it in a gun not designated for their use is a KABOOM waitin' to happen...


go to the rossi website http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=15

the circut judge is a viable option for the 45 colt

also check out

http://www.gunsandammo.com/video/colt-circuit-judge/

natman
January 27, 2012, 05:14 AM
A 45 Colt in a 410 chamber is not safe, as has been mentioned. Also, the OP said:

My local state park only allows squirrel hunting with a shot gun

I don't think the game warden would be amused to find you shooting a bullet into the air, even if technically it was fired from a shotgun.

There is a big difference between a 410 slug and a 7.62x39 bullet. A 123 grain 30 caliber bullet is somewhat light for its caliber. A 109 grain 410 slug is ridiculously light for its caliber. It has a very low sectional density, a function of weight for diameter, and won't penetrate very well. Couple that with the poor accuracy of a projectile fired from a smoothbore with no sights and you have a recipe for wounding.

hogdogs
January 27, 2012, 09:10 AM
The taurus is a .45 colt revolver able to fire a .410 shotshell...
It is not a .410 pistol firing the .45 colt...

Brent

hogdogs
January 27, 2012, 09:13 AM
The taurus is not a smoothbore... it doughnuts shot patterns. As for slugs, most said they were dismal...

THe taurus is a gun that does a few more things than a standard design but it does nothing as well as a single ammo firing weapon...

Brent

Art Eatman
January 27, 2012, 10:01 AM
I've looked at a Circuit Judge. A look was enough. I don't even want to hold one of those silly things, much less own one. One of those deals, "I'd sure hate to be seen in public with that."

A .410 shotgun is probably the most practical squirrel gun a person can use. Light weight, low noise, negligible recoil...

rickyrick
January 27, 2012, 11:48 AM
If it shot 45 colt decently, I would be interested, if not, it would be useless.

Irish B
January 27, 2012, 02:45 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378673&highlight=410+deer

msnden
January 27, 2012, 05:32 PM
The 410 is great for squirrels, But the 410 is NOT a shotgun, 410 is the bore if the 410 were a shotgun its gauge would be a 65 gauge (or therebouts)

Art Eatman
January 27, 2012, 06:09 PM
I figure a smoothbore tube meant for shooting shot is a shotgun.

I also note that picking fly poop out of pepper is not a remunerative career.

SHNOMIDO
January 27, 2012, 06:17 PM
I dunno... I got a couple .410's and theyre all shotguns.

Also, im not a hunter, but I'm under the impression they make, and you can use, buckshot in .410 for deer.

There's like 4 00 buckshot in the shell, and you just get 4 hits instead of 14ish.

But like i said, i dont know much of anything about hunting. Anyone confirm/deny/comment? Whats the viability of .410 buckshot on deer?

derekb
January 27, 2012, 08:25 PM
The 410 is great for squirrels, But the 410 is NOT a shotgun, 410 is the bore if the 410 were a shotgun its gauge would be a 65 gauge (or therebouts)

Rather, the .410 is not a gauge, it's a bore. Shotguns can be chambered in .410 bore.

msnden
January 27, 2012, 09:15 PM
Rather, the .410 is not a gauge, it's a bore. Shotguns can be chambered in .410 bore


They certainly can, & a .410 bore would make about a 67 gauge

Sport45
January 27, 2012, 09:30 PM
I have a .410 and it would be great for squirrel and other little critters like that. But I wouln't suggest buying one. The cost of ammo is way too much for what you get.

Buy a 12ga or 20ga instead. They are cheaper to shoot and a heckuva lot more versatile.

bamaranger
January 28, 2012, 02:35 AM
Don't know abut squirrels, but my Dad and I killed a ton of rabbits with the .410. Load was 3" shell and 7-1/2 shot. Always.

Biggest problem I see w/ .410, or rather its application, is use of shot size too large. Even a load of #6 shot is pretty sparse from a .410.

I found a small supply of the short 2-3/4 shell loaded with #8, and suspect that will be a good load as well, but have not hunted it.

natman
January 28, 2012, 04:33 AM
The 410 is great for squirrels, But the 410 is NOT a shotgun, 410 is the bore if the 410 were a shotgun its gauge would be a 65 gauge (or therebouts)

The 410 is most certainly a shotgun, even though it does not use the usual gauge designation. That's not what determines a shotgun, it's more important that it's a smoothbore.

Todd1700
January 28, 2012, 05:47 AM
A 410 would be fine for squirrel and if that's what I already had I'd use it for that. As a weapon for deer I wouldn't go that route. And I speak as someone who killed my first deer as a child with a 410. A doe, but I shot her at a whopping 20 yards and she still ran a helluva ways. It's just pretty weak for deer.

Also as others have said already many stores carry a very limited selection of 410 shells if they have any at all. And they are pricey little suckers in stores around here too. Yeah you can order a box online but I personally hate ordering things online where the shipping costs as much or more than the thing you are ordering.

I'd get at least a 20 gauge. Some manufacturer (mossberg maybe) actually sells a combo model shotgun that comes with a smoothbore barrel and a rifled barrel for slugs.

msnden
January 28, 2012, 08:59 AM
The 410 is most certainly a shotgun, even though it does not use the usual gauge designation. That's not what determines a shotgun, it's more important that it's a smoothbore




I am not sure if it is the smoothbore what determines if it is a shotgun or not. I have shot guns with both rifled & smooth barrels, I have rifles that shoot "shot"
(bird shot). Shotguns as a rule are designated buy there gauger, 12, 20,16, 28, etc, the 410 is described by its bore. as are other rifles 30/06, .308. .270 etc.
You may well be correct!, But I think the .410 is an anomaly in the gun world and the owner can call it whatever they choose. (I know what I would call it & it would not be either) msn

natman
January 29, 2012, 11:15 AM
I'll go so far as to agree that the 410 name does not match the usual convention for shotgun names.

However, trying to argue that a 410 is not a shotgun is too silly for words. Other than the name, please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge.

Art Eatman
January 29, 2012, 11:36 AM
"...please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge."

"There ain't ary." :D

I saw a 9mm shotgun in the Roy Acuff collection on display at Opryland. European-made. I'm not quite sure as to an appropriate use...

natman
January 29, 2012, 02:42 PM
"...please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge."

"There ain't ary."

Precisely.

I saw a 9mm shotgun in the Roy Acuff collection on display at Opryland. European-made. I'm not quite sure as to an appropriate use...

Garden guns, for shooting rabbits, starlings and similar pests at very short range. I've seen 9mm rimfire bolt action smoothbores from Winchester (made long ago) and Anschutz (made recently). Fiocchi still makes ammo (http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&newcategorydimensionid=10156) in shot sizes from 6 to 9.

I once almost bought a Bernadelli 9mm semiauto shotgun, but the deal fell through.

msnden
January 29, 2012, 02:51 PM
I'll go so far as to agree that the 410 name does not match the usual convention for shotgun names.

However, trying to argue that a 410 is not a shotgun is too silly for words. Other than the name, please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge

You are absolutely right! I stand corrected, msn

fast-eddie
February 1, 2012, 12:22 AM
If I were in your shoes it would a perfect excuse to get one of these sweeties.

http://www.cabelas.com/pump-lever-action-marlin-model-1895-lever-action-410-shotgun-3.shtml

I bet clays would be pretty fun with a lever gun.

Gunplummer
February 1, 2012, 07:36 AM
I live in Pennsylvania and for a long time a .410 was not classified as a shotgun. They are now legal in shotgun (Special Regulations) areas, but were not for years because they are measured as a caliber. Many people thought that the .410 was not legal in the whole state but that is not true. I guess if a revolver and .45 caliber muzzle loader is good enough, a .410 would be O.K. for deer, although I have never used one on a deer. To listen to some people, a 12 gauge smooth bore is no longer adequate. Think about this: If a 20 gauge has a rifled bore, is it still a shotgun? I have seen Ithaca boys rifles with .22 smooth bore barrels for rat shot. What are they called?
We are drifting here. I used a .410 for years with #5 shot for squirrels. I had to special order a case to get #5 shot from Federal. Less pellets when you skin them. You can carry a whole box around with you, but they are really not cheaper than 12 gauge shells.

Sport45
February 1, 2012, 09:00 AM
I live in Pennsylvania and for a long time a .410 was not classified as a shotgun.

Was it not a shotgun, or not a legal firearm for hunting?

Gunplummer
February 1, 2012, 09:19 AM
Not a shotgun. Only legal in rifle areas until the law changed about 3 years ago.

Keg
February 1, 2012, 06:31 PM
I looked at the Pennsylvania gun laws since 2006...I could not find anything saying a 410 was not a shotgun or could not be used.....Anyone have any proof?

SHR970
February 1, 2012, 06:39 PM
If pennsylvania had that law on the books, it certainly did not agree with BATFE's definition. IF you cut one down under 18" w/o a O.D.D. registration you get into a heap O'trouble. Rifles you can go down to 16" before that kicks in. I think I'll go with the .fed definition.

You don't have to agree with me but if you roll the dice you take your chances.

Now I would believe that the state had a minumum power floor codified that the 410 didn't meet.

Gunplummer
February 2, 2012, 09:29 AM
Legal for deer in a rifle area, not legal for deer in a shotgun only area. State law, what more do you need? When Pa. started special regulations areas (Shotgun only) that was the law. It may have been more than 3 years since it changed, time flies. I had no idea they made baiting deer illegal again in Spec Regs areas. I really don't keep up on the book and don't bait anyway. The .410 law change may go back more than 3 years. The original debate was "When is a .410 not considered a shotgun?". There you have it. The Pennsylvania State Game Commission did not consider it a shotgun. Other states do have a power limit on shotguns, but in Pa. it was legal in a rifle area as far back as I can remember.

Sport45
February 2, 2012, 09:58 AM
I get it.

Shotguns are legal for hunting in shotgun areas.

.410's are not legal for hunting in shotgun areas.

Therefore; .410's are not shotguns.

:)

bk688
February 2, 2012, 10:39 AM
So I took my uncles old single shot .410 to the range this past week. It held about 4 inches at 50 yards with slugs (winchester super-x). I can only assume that with a rifled bore (which the circuit judge has) it would be more accurate, although that still puts it in the vitals of a deer at that distance.

At 25 yards with #6 it made a nice pattern although there was a good point above about the judge donuting the pattern. I wonder what effect this might have while squirrel hunting.

I may end up buying a single shot .410, Although fast-eddie's lever-action was a nice temptation. A single shot would be a good thing to give to the kid for her first squirrel hunt (5 more years). Still may buy the circuit judge, especially if they do end up making pistol caliber cartridges legal in rifles in Illinois. Plus, Art Eatman, I kinda like that silly look it has.

Buzzcook
February 2, 2012, 01:28 PM
Gauge and bore are synonymous. While it may be more usual to use gauge for shotguns and bore for rifles, they both mean the same thing, the number of pellets of the muzzle size needed to make a pound.

SHR970
February 2, 2012, 09:09 PM
Gunplummer wrote: Legal for deer in a rifle area, not legal for deer in a shotgun only area. State law, what more do you need? When Pa. started special regulations areas (Shotgun only) that was the law.

That is not the same as saying a 410 is not a shotgun. It is saying that a 410 is not legal to use in a shotgun only area for deer. I would be willing to bet where the game laws concerning hunting birds were concerned, the 410 was legal where shot size or method of take was regulated.

State law can not call a 410 a rifle while the fed. calls it a shotgun. You don't have to believe me but you can consult an attorney that is knowledgeable in federal regulations if you wish to confirm. What the state can do is say you can't use it for a specific application. Much like many states banning any and all .22 or under calibers for deer hunting.

Here in Cali. the law for deer hunting with a shotgun specifies the use of 00Buck, 000Buck, or slug. The game laws also specify that no gauge larger than 10 may be used. I have the following options with common factory ammo:
10Ga. 00, 000, slug
12Ga. 00, 000, slug
16Ga. slug
20Ga. slug
28Ga. S.O.L.
410 Bore 00, 000, slug.

Yes, if I want to I can hunt Mule Deer with a 410. Doesn't make it right but I can do it.

Gunplummer
February 2, 2012, 10:23 PM
There you have it. ".410 bore and slug" I strongly suspect that a .50 cal. smooth bore musket would have been illegal also. The designation "bore" was enough to make it illegal at the time. Enough nonsense, they changed the law anyway.

sc928porsche
February 4, 2012, 02:04 AM
Small shot does not travel far. You may have a total of 3/4 of an ounce of shot, but the individual shot of 7 1/2 does not carry very far. The .410 is quite effective on squirrels and rabbits. It is also effective on game birds although using the .410 for them is quite challenging.

rickyrick
February 4, 2012, 06:43 PM
When 410 shot bounces of of a piece of plywood, it really stings the lips.

chewie146
February 10, 2012, 10:14 AM
I always used a 12 gauge on squirrels unless all I had with me was my .22 pistol. Use a smaller shot, and you'll do fine. The circuit judge is an interesting gun, but really a toy. If you got really close, it would probably work. From what I've read, the smaller the shot size, the more prone to the doughnut pattern they are. 12 gauge and 20 gauge are much cheaper for the small game loads, and the slugs pack much more punch for deer. If you do decide on the circuit judge or judge pistol, be forewarned that in NM, shotgun is only a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder (for the purposes of hunting.) That means I cannot use my pistol gripped shotgun under state law for hunting squirrels. At least, that's how I interpret the law. You'd have to do a lot of product testing with that gun to see what shells pattern acceptably and at what range.