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View Full Version : When attacked by multiple assailants: MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF ONE OF THEM


Rachen
January 20, 2012, 12:36 PM
WARNING: Offensive content.
Man attacked behind a school by 7 assailants. Beaten and robbed.
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3D5HZQ7l2xYqA

When faced with multiple assailants, even if you have a CCW, trying to take on all of them is just foolish and may even end up deadly for you if someone manages to get hold of your weapon, knife or gun.

Instead, you grab the one that is closest to you and make a nice, shining example out of him.

I don't think his friends will continue to show that much alacrity in attacking you when they witness their accomplice being put in a bear hug, then ventilated at point blank range, or had some KaBar surgery performed on his intestines.

Yelling like a banshee or a crazed soldier of the 1st Liousiana Infantry during the 1st Battle of Manassas, while you are sending that assailant to the grave helps too. Psyops, nice and easy.

khegglie
January 20, 2012, 03:31 PM
That might work; or not.

jimbob86
January 20, 2012, 03:41 PM
That might work; or not.

Even if it does not scare the rest off, you'll only have 6 left to deal with!

If it doesn't work, and they beat you to death, then at least you tried. The ultimate sin is not trying.

khegglie
January 20, 2012, 03:48 PM
quote:
"Even if it does not scare the rest off, you'll only have 6 left to deal with!

If it doesn't work, and they beat you to death, then at least you tried. The ultimate sin is not trying. "

That's the real fact JimBob, I agree! I am fighting and not counting on the rest of the tribe to run just because one got neutralized. Gangs are not like the good old 50's and 60's versions any more.:(

mooney1el
January 20, 2012, 05:31 PM
I was taught, one round in each of the assailants, then return to the "leader" and empty the mag. Switch mags and neutralize the threat, splitting the available ammo among those still threatening.

TheNocturnus
January 20, 2012, 05:52 PM
I agree, take out the closest one and then move on to the next if you can. Just pulling a weapon will at least put some fear into them. Although, watching one of their cohorts get blasted could work in the opposite way you want it too, they might get an avenger attitude going.

Either way, just fight for your life and hope you survive.

Sponge14
January 20, 2012, 06:17 PM
There's a few questions I have in this issue. Assuming it was in a State in which you are actually allowed to defend yourself, would it be legal to use lethal force against a gang of unarmed assailants? My gut says yes, but I still wonder in this messed up world we live in...

I would almost wager my house on the guess that if this person were to have pulled a gun, that the attackers would have left the scene as quick as possible. They were a group of teenagers, and I don't know many teens that would have taken a bullet to beat up someone else. If it came down to one of them having more testicular fortitude than the rest, putting him down would have certainly caused the rest to flee.

Also, I am at work and therefor have no audio, but it appears that he was pleading with them to stop. I have to say, that had I been unarmed and in the same situation, knowing I am probably going to get hurt no matter what, that I would have thrown the beating of a lifetime to as many of those thugs as I could.

Steviewonder1
January 20, 2012, 06:24 PM
A gang of 2 or more is a Disparity of Force. My take on this is you shoot the loudest mouth first to the ground and then the others as fast as possible. Even unarmed they can kill you, stomp you into the ground and worse. If I have enough distance I am out of here. If not I will go thru 46 rounds of Ranger T as fast as I can.

Lee McNelly
January 20, 2012, 06:25 PM
ask him if he wants head turned a gord and to tell u whos 2nd or next

Buzzcook
January 20, 2012, 06:38 PM
move and keep moving.
In the time you took to grab one guy and make an "example" of him you could have shot several targets.
While you are wrestling with the "example" guy he is also wrestling with you. I also expect his co-ilk are not just waiting their turn.

One of the reasons to carry a gun is so you don't have to wrestle.

JerryM
January 20, 2012, 06:48 PM
Sounds like a foolish attempt to me. I do see such in some movies, but do not know of anyone who can really take on a gang or multiple attackers and prevail. Maybe Bruce Lee??

While you were making an example of one, what would the others be doing?

Jerry

MLeake
January 20, 2012, 07:09 PM
JerryM, if they had guns, probably shooting at you, and possibly hitting you and/or the one you grabbed.

If they had knives, possibly slicing and stabbing at you, and possibly hitting you and/or the one you grabbed.

If they had no weapons, probably punching, kicking, and grabbing at you, and... you get the idea.

In martial arts training, we call this "randori," or multiple-attacker drill. Depending on the skill level of the monkey in the middle, the attackers may be constrained to simple punches, or punches and kicks, or grabs, or combinations of the above. Sometimes the attackers are given "shinai," the split rattan swords used in kendo.

One learns a few things very quickly.

1) Do not stay in the middle. It is a bad, bad place to be.
2) Try to get them in each other's way, by aggressively moving to the outside of the group.
3) Stick with simple attacks and counters; focus on not getting grabbed or hit, primarily by moving.
4) Tying up for any amount of time with any one of them tends to get you hit in the head with annoying frequency.
5) Depending on level of contact, simple could also be reasonably brutal. Iriminage techniques tend to work very well, as do certain weight-dropping techniques.
6) Attempts to control one, to use as a shield or a projectile against the others, can work - but if they don't work on first try, don't continue that attempt, get to the outside. Another opportunity may present, or it may not, but if you aren't getting damaged, who cares?
7) Hesitation = getting hit. If they are armed, hesitation = getting hit by very bad things.

You might be surprised, though, how likely the group is to injure or strike each other in such a scenario.

Of course, if you aren't both good and lucky, they are also likely to injure or strike you.

Willie Lowman
January 20, 2012, 07:41 PM
Listen, Captain America, the good guy doesn't always win.

Sometimes the best you can do is loose as slowly as possible.

The fact of the mater is, facing 7 people at once, even a submachinegun may not be enough.

Have fun with this new and exciting "how a middle aged Rambo defeats more than a half dozen imaginary foes" thread.


All you can do is train for the worst and fight like you mean it.

------------

This puts me in mind of one of the points I posted in another thread.

Bring a friend. Have him bring his rifle.

Dwight55
January 20, 2012, 07:44 PM
In a situation where there is clear disparity of force, . . . and I perceive a threat to my health/life/safety, . . . the nearest one is going to get shot, . . . then, there, no announcements, just Bang.

Then we go to mother's house rules for dinner, . . . nobody gets seconds until everyone is served once, . . . unless they decline the offer.

A hasty retreat would consititute a decline, . . . continuing as a threat will get seconds or thirds, . . . until the perceived threat is gone.

I may wind up in the morgue, . . . but one or more of them will at least have surgery, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

MLeake
January 20, 2012, 08:38 PM
Disparity of force would be a justification for use of the firearm.

Using movement to get out of the middle of the swarm, while you draw and fire, is still a good idea. Staying in the middle is a good way to get flanked and attacked from behind, and gives each bad guy a clear line of fire.

shurshot
January 20, 2012, 08:48 PM
When a fight breaks out, all bets are off. Nothing is a sure thing. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes .......the bear eats you.

MLeake
January 20, 2012, 08:55 PM
True.

Lest anybody get the wrong idea, I'm not suggesting that fighting multiple attackers is preferred, or likely to be wonderfully successful.

I'm just saying that certain concepts are probably going to be crucial. Not allowing simultaneous, multiple openings to multiple people is right at the top of those concepts.

Some of the things I mentioned earlier were focused on more open space. If there is cover, or potential obstacles one can put between oneself and the gang, those should certainly be exploited, if one must fight.

As always, detecting and avoiding the problem in the first place is best. It's just that we can't always manage that.

By the way, Willie Lowman, who were you referring to as "Captain America?"

hangglider
January 20, 2012, 09:38 PM
I live in a area that is frequented by all kinds of gang activity--so this "multiple bogey" stuff is of special interest to me. So far everything I've done has been simple avoidance--I just pray I'm never purposefully sought out at home--it's likely going to be a bloody mess one way or the other when that happens. My neighbor's house was vandalized a couple of days ago and today my place was hit--just kids hurling rocks and bricks but damaging nonetheless. The good news is that as more of the neighborhood gets victimized--the more "recruits" I'm enlisting in our "mutual house-watch gang." Once we get enough people who care involved and networked, I think we can really turn the corner on gang activity and violence in our area.

m&p45acp10+1
January 20, 2012, 10:35 PM
I was attacked by 4 assailants with knives when I was in highschool. I was on my way home from doing a roofing job. I had a roofing hammer. At first it looked like they had guns due to the way the closest one was holding his knife, and it was dark in the middle of BFE.

I fought them off, and they fled, I wound up with 17 stab wounds. One of those wounds if it had been just a quarter inch deeper it would have collapsed my lung. I gave more than I got, though try walking over half a mile with 17 bleeding wounds. I did not know I was stabbed at first, till I looked at my shirt and saw the blood.

armoredman
January 20, 2012, 11:22 PM
ask him if he wants head turned a gord and to tell u whos 2nd or next:eek:

Your friends might get me in a rush, but not before I turn your head into a canoe!:)

Losing situation no matter what, try to lose by the least margin possible.:( I will certainly try to avoid the whole situation if I can. Begging and pleading does NOT help - seen guys get whooped on the yard, and begging and pleading just seems to gets them more frenzied.

BlackFeather
January 21, 2012, 12:03 AM
The concepts Mleake posted are exactly my thoughts, having done similar training. Yes, it focuses mainly on unarmed assailants, and shinai are easier to brush off than sticks or knives, but some of the tactics stay the same. Graduating to firearms you must definitely find cover, and fighting back without enough distance is likely going to lead you to being shot yourself, unless you're lucky enough to get a gun out and firing before one of them shoots you or grabs your weapon arm.

In the end, turn the snow red. How red is determined by those assaulting you. But these aren't like most animals, shooting/cutting/stabbing/bludgeoning the leader isn't any more or less effective than whoever happens to be the closest. Though, I've talked my way out of group beatings more often than I have ever had to use violence, so don't take my word for it... ;)

ltc444
January 21, 2012, 12:22 AM
G. Gordon Lidy discussed this issue. I believe he covered it in his book WILL. When he was held in the DC Jail. General Population he was confronted with multiple threats. He focused on a single individual. Before the thugs could attack he Went on the offensive, disabled the first attacker, started for a second and the covey scattered.

If you are swarmed there is not a lot you can do. If the attackers want to intimidate and work up to the attack then you have a chance.

Identify the leader, Move obliquely so as to limit the number of attackers facing you, start the ball by taking out the leader and go from there.

Survival is based on your will to survive, lack of hesitation and your tools.

shootniron
January 21, 2012, 12:23 AM
Well, the great Musashi believed that one man is the same as ten thousand...in this situation, we would be satisifed with one being the equal of seven...:D

You can have the best training and be a great strategist, but if you cannot work your strategy into the situation at hand...you are SOL. The value of training and strategy are only relevant if you can make it work at the time you need it. Seven determined attackers leave 99.99% of people in deep doo-doo because most of the folks that have the training/strategy skills have very little experience in real life, full speed, dynamic encounters where they are required to apply thier skills to the situation at hand.

If you can work your way to the gun, it is your best/only hope...if you cannot talk your way out of it.

TexasJustice7
January 21, 2012, 01:22 AM
Looks to me like the Chinese kid was in one of them kill zones, a school where he was not allowed to have a weapon for self defense. If he had, he would probably have been expelled and/or prosecuted for having one in spite of the protected gangs that roam around in such zones. This is the same situation one has in a shopping center with No Gun signs. I don't go there.
Let such places go bankrupt from losing business. :eek:

HALL,AUSTIN
January 21, 2012, 01:23 AM
I was attacked by 3 kids last year at school. I hit one while they were in the pushing/talking smack stage, cutting his forehead, then moved on to wannabe gangster number 2... But didnt see number 3 behind me until I was on the ground after a nice punch to the back of the head. I learned 3 things. 1. Keep your head on a swivel. 2. Stay on your feet, at all costs. A kick to the face is no fun. 3. Land the first shot/fight dirty. There are no rules in a fight. I say this to say that 7 people is pack your shtuff up and go time. Dont be a hero unless a loved one is on the line. I will be called a whimp or wharltever before taking on 7 people. Im no John Wayne and dont claim to be. The only way I like my odds there is from 50 yards, in an alley, with 3 15round mags in something sturdy... Even then I dont want to play for keeps. No sir, not me.

egor20
January 21, 2012, 01:45 AM
HALL,AUSTIN
There are no rules in a fight

egor20
IMHO a "fair" is a place to look at horses, sheep and goats, eat cotton candy and ride the ferris wheel. A fight is a bit different.I prefer fairs myself.

They're s No Fair Fights.

tepin
January 21, 2012, 07:39 AM
You have to carefully plan your shots in a disparity of force case because when there is only one left standing, disparity of force no longer exists and it's hand-to-hand.

manta49
January 21, 2012, 07:59 AM
The idea of having a handgun or any sort of firearm is stopping someone at a distance or you might as well have a knife. So getting close enough to someone that you can grab one to make an example of him to deter his accomplices is a really bad idea . Rule 1 if possible keep a distance between you and your assailant's.

icedog88
January 21, 2012, 09:18 AM
Not me. I'm gonna let em swarm me, then jump on me. Then I'm gonna stand up fast like Arnold does in all his movies and throw em off:rolleyes:.

Double Naught Spy
January 21, 2012, 09:24 AM
Instead, you grab the one that is closest to you and make a nice, shining example out of him.

I don't think his friends will continue to show that much alacrity in attacking you when they witness their accomplice being put in a bear hug, then ventilated at point blank range, or had some KaBar surgery performed on his intestines.

Why would I want to first dramatically increase the danger to me by putting myself in closer proximity to a bad guy who can then beat me, stab me, or possibly disarm me, things he could not do when he was further away? If he has a gun, he is more likely to be able to shoot me with less skill required to be successful than if he was further away. You don't need to aim contact shots.

How do I hold him in a bear hug and still manage to draw and fire my gun? Bear hugs require both arms.

If you do manage to shoot the guy while keeping him wrapped up, it would be point blank range or actually inside of point black range. However, anyone you shoot a robbery distances will be at point blank range or less.

khegglie
January 21, 2012, 09:54 AM
^^^ All of the above pretty much negates the origional idea that taking on #1 thug first will generally solve the issue.
M.Leake and the guys who were engaged talked of proactive continuede engaging and moving = a fight; not make the punks scurry with a single series of punch/kick elbows to One loudmouth.

Rachen
January 21, 2012, 11:29 AM
You all have great points here, and I admit in my original post, I forgot to include the first, and even more important tactic than fighting: While you are fighting, you should be occupied with trying to get away from the danger area ASAP

Yes, being in the middle of a pack of feral hominids is perhaps the worst place to be, especially if they have weapons too. Silver screen badasses want you to believe that the hero can whip down a whole army of assailants, but the screen of real life is anything but silver.

But if you take down an assailant while you are running, you will place some distance between you and the rest, and the rest, perhaps the weaker stomached ones, will give up first.

Imagine the gang in the video chasing the guy at the end. Now imagine the victim choosing this time to produce a knife and neautralize the attacker that is gaining up on him. Attacker will fall, and the rest, catching up to the body, will see their dead or dying friend, will probably be struck by a momentary shock...the "This can't be happening to us" attitude.

THose who choose to continue the pursuit, the victim is still running, and is more than capable of neutralizing another threat if it comes too close to him.

REMEMBER: the elephant and the tiger. The tiger does not bring down an elephant by standing ground and biting, he would be trampled in less than a heartbeat. The tiger is always on the move, striking where he sees is vulnerable.

MrDontPlay
January 21, 2012, 11:45 AM
If multiple people treatin you it justifies deadly force IMO. I would produce atleast 1 gun, offer them a chance to change their mind (not a must, I'd just rather not kill someone if I dont have to) and if they do not immediately change their mind they will be shot. One major problem I can see in this situation is your likely to leave someone to talk against you in court, it's unlikely that you can quickly kill 3-5 people with a hand gun, especially with a 380 or a 5 shot revolver.

BlackFeather
January 21, 2012, 12:01 PM
I would produce atleast 1 gun, offer them a chance to change their mind (not a must, I'd just rather not kill someone if I dont have to) and if they do not immediately change their mind they will be shot.

Assuming you have the chance to do so, of course. Like most animals, humans don't like their prey to know what's about to happen.

Frank Ettin
January 21, 2012, 12:35 PM
Can't think of any guaranteed way to deal with multiple attackers. As usual, it all depends on exactly what's happening and how. It will also depend on what skills and abilities you've brought to the situation -- and how good your judgement and luck is. And let's not forget the utility of avoidance and escape.

But in the meantime, I don't think that In the end, turn the snow red.is very helpful. And One major problem I can see in this situation is your likely to leave someone to talk against you in court,leaving no witnesses needs to be off the table.

So this seems to have gone as far as it needs to.