PDA

View Full Version : Top ten list for surviving a gunfight


R1145
January 17, 2012, 03:14 PM
I apologize in advance for pulling out a horse that has been beaten to death, but I did a search, and could not easily find the information I was looking for.

My agency is doing some training in the next few months. Talk is cheap, but I want to contribute a list of tips to distribute, to stimulate discussion and perhaps serve as a basis for future training.

I am not looking for a rehash of the usual humorous "[your name here]'s Rules of Combat", nor specifics on gun or ammo choices (which are constrained by department policy).

While clearly I am looking at this from the perspective of a LEO, I think much of this information has broad usefulness.

My main talent is overstating the obvious, it seems, but I appreciate any additions and commentary.

After brainstorming last night, my Top Ten list has 27 entries so far:

1. Get to cover;

2. Deploy your long gun;

3. If feasible, wait for backup before contact;

4. Establish fire superiority;

5. Distance is your friend;

6. Run away;

7. Stop the bleeding;

8. Move laterally;

9. Maneuver on the enemy's flank;

10. Watch their hands;

11. Be slow quickly: Find the front sight, and pull the trigger.

12. The radio will not save your life;

13. Get out of the car before the bad guy does;

14. On a contact, make a habit of being in a position of tactical advantage;

15. At night, use light to conceal you and blind the suspect;

16. At night, move after shooting;

17. Avoid crossfire situations;

18. Be conscious of other officers' positions, and stay out of their line of fire;

19. Maintain your equipment and wear your vest;

20. Keep back away from your cover;

21. Slice the pie;

22. If you go a little slower, you're a lot quieter;

23. Try to see people before they see you;

24. Shoot low, skip bullets;

25. Stay away from walls;

26. Get out of the kill zone;

27. Conspicuously identify yourself to backup officers, especially when plainclothes.

m&p45acp10+1
January 17, 2012, 03:22 PM
I was always taught that rule number one is: Don't get killed./Avoid getting hit. All else after that is secondary.

R1145
January 17, 2012, 03:27 PM
While sound advice, I'm looking for practical tips regarding technique.

C0untZer0
January 17, 2012, 03:28 PM
Don't most large police agencies now mandate the wearing of body armor?

I thought there was something where departments had to mandate it or lose federal funding.

For a police officer I would think body armor would figure into surviving a gun fight...

hangglider
January 17, 2012, 03:59 PM
Is this a recipe for all scenarios/situations? Doesn't look like a close combat formula to me--but then I don't know much about anything.

Willie Lowman
January 17, 2012, 04:31 PM
If there is going to be a gunfight

1: Be somewhere else

2: Have a gun. A gun that works and you know how to use.

3: A rifle is better than a pistol

4: Bring a friend, have him bring his rifle.

5: Know the difference between cover and concealment

6: Stay behind cover as much as possible.

7: First guy to die, looses.

jager.30-06
January 17, 2012, 04:44 PM
4: Bring a friend, have him bring his rifle.



lmao

nate45
January 17, 2012, 04:59 PM
If there is going to be a gunfight

1: Be somewhere else

2: Have a gun. A gun that works and you know how to use.

3: A rifle is better than a pistol

4: Bring a friend, have him bring his rifle.

5: Know the difference between cover and concealment

6: Stay behind cover as much as possible.

7: First guy to die, looses.

I'm going to say for Police and civilians alike NOT getting in a gunfight should always be Rule#1.

If you are the Police and someone has the temerity to fire upon you...don't just call one, or two freinds, call everyone. 11-98 Code 3

Steviewonder1
January 17, 2012, 05:00 PM
Look at getting some training in a Gun Fighting School. There are many out there and some may travel to your area. However since you live in California your choices may be to travel to a school. I know there is one in Nevada and more than one in Arizona. There is also a list of schools in this section of Tactics and Training.

Deaf Smith
January 17, 2012, 06:06 PM
1. See it coming and if you can avoid it, do so, if you can't avoid get the advantage and shoot first.

2. Only good hits count so speed is fine, accuracy is final (per Bill Jordan.)

3. Always cheat, always win (as per Clint Smith's rule.)

4. If you can't hit with the first shots when will you have time to hit with the rest of them?

Deaf

NYPD13
January 17, 2012, 06:28 PM
Lets not forget, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! Skills unused are lost.

R1145
January 18, 2012, 11:00 AM
Don't most large police agencies now mandate the wearing of body armor?

In our agency, it is recommended but optional, which is reasonable given the variety of tasks performed. Patrol officers almost universally wear theirs.

1. See it coming and if you can avoid it, do so, if you can't avoid get the advantage and shoot first.

2. Only good hits count so speed is fine, accuracy is final (per Bill Jordan.)

3. Always cheat, always win (as per Clint Smith's rule.)


We're the good guys. We can't cheat. We (hopefully) stay within policy, shoot straight and tell the truth. Also, we generally have to be reactive and wait until the facts would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe a crime has been committed.

I like #2, though, but I think that's kind of what I was getting at with my #11: Be slow quickly: Find the front sight, and pull the trigger.

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! Skills unused are lost.

Again, sound advice, but more strategy than tactic, I think.

Is this a recipe for all scenarios/situations? Doesn't look like a close combat formula to me--but then I don't know much about anything.

I'm not sure what a "close combat formula" is. Every situation has a unique set of circumstances and many possible outcomes. I'm trying to put together a list of helpful hints to enhance the chance of survival when an officer is involved in a use of lethal force.

Look at getting some training in a Gun Fighting School.

More sound advice, but the officers are undergoing training. I'm just putting together a list, basically of discussion points. I fully realize, though, talk is cheap...

MikeRussell
January 18, 2012, 11:13 AM
3. Always cheat, always win (as per Clint Smith's rule.)

I like my variation better...

A fair fight is one that I win.

MikeRussell
January 18, 2012, 11:18 AM
I like #2, though, but I think that's kind of what I was getting at with my #11: Be slow quickly: Find the front sight, and pull the trigger.

Modify your #11:

SQUEEZE the trigger. A pull is associated with a jerk. A jerk causes a miss, or worse an unintended hit (innocent bystander).

Also with the practice, they need to learn how to call their shots (lots of info about that from various successful IPSC/USPSA shooters).

ltc444
January 18, 2012, 02:51 PM
Move obliquely. In an unpredictable manner. An oblique move gives two elements to deal with when moving. Jerkly random moves prevent precise aiming.

One of my instructors, Silver Star winner, had the ability to move across the battle field with out getting hit.

He never moved in a predictiable manner, never broke cover for more than 1 second and his moves were allways at a diagonal.

If memory serves, it takes a trained infantryman 1.5 seconds to acquire, aim and hit a target. This is the reason for the 1 second exposure.

Finally, a definition of trees vs bushes. Per a Special Forces Captain when asked how many types of trees existed. "There are two types of trees. Biguns and littleuns. Biguns you can hide behind and they will stop a bullet. Littleuns you can hide behind but they won't stop a bullet.

Cover is the same.

oneounceload
January 18, 2012, 03:02 PM
If there is going to be a gunfight

1: Be somewhere else

ALL that is necessary, everything else is video game speak

Patriot86
January 18, 2012, 03:20 PM
Looks like a good list



5. Distance is your friend
Not if the BG has a rifle or .44/357 mag and all you got is a 380


16. At night, move after shooting
I would say use common sense there, moving out of cover and exposing yourself even at night can be deadly (to you)

Dwight55
January 18, 2012, 04:03 PM
4: Bring a friend, have him bring his rifle.


I'm partial to these:

1.Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns.
2.If you can, make friends with those on the crew served weapons. Bring them as well. Borrow money from them, it gives them an added incentive to protect you.
3.Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
4.Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
5.If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
6.Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
7.The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

May God bless,
Dwight

ProShooter
January 18, 2012, 05:54 PM
1) Be smarter than your gun
2) Cover is better than concealment, concealement is better than nothing at all.
3) If you love the guy enough to shoot him once, shoot him twice.
4) Don't train for the "normal". Getting shot at is not normal.
5) Carry every day.
6) Make your gun go to work.
7) When the bad guy is ready to take a shot, don't still be where he last saw you.
8) Get off the X. X marks the spot, and if you stand on the X, X will mark the spot where the police find your body in the morning.
9) Make every shot count.

farmerboy
January 18, 2012, 06:21 PM
Agree with post 13, Leo or not!

Archie
January 18, 2012, 06:54 PM
1. Maybe "Look ahead".

Which is short for: Pay attention to terrain. See slightly open doors, broken windows, cars parked in the wrong place, an absence of people where there ought to be people and so forth.

Look for the signs of an impending attack. Avoid the trap.

2. Learn to shoot.

Which is short for: Work with your sidearm and ammunition until you know exactly how far it will shoot accurately, and how much hold over you need at that range. Practice the draw until you can do it without thinking, other than the signal to do so. Practice until releasing the retention device, getting a proper grip on the firearm, withdrawing the firearm without getting your finger on the trigger and such without thought.

Because your brain needs to looking and evaluation what is going on. Who needs shooting, who needs shooting first, who needs to NOT be shot. Have they seen me? Can I back out and get backup without sacrificing the victim in all this?

3. Maintain equipment.

Right? Gun is clean and lubed as needed; ammo is fresh; radio battery is charged; underwear is clean. All this needs be attended prior to jumping out of car and charging into action.

Nothing wrong with your list.

guitars and guns
January 18, 2012, 07:00 PM
underwear is clean.

lmfao!!!

maybe won't stay clean though. :eek:

R1145
January 18, 2012, 07:48 PM
Thanks, Archie. Underwear status aside, there should definitely be something on the list about situational awareness.

Most of the points made by other posters are already represented on the list somehow.

Quote:
16. At night, move after shooting
I would say use common sense there, moving out of cover and exposing yourself even at night can be deadly (to you)
Today 03:02 PM

Exactly. These aren't meant as being applicable in all situations. The point is, be aware that at night, people tend to return fire at muzzle flashes.

Move obliquely. In an unpredictable manner. An oblique move gives two elements to deal with when moving. Jerkly random moves prevent precise aiming...it takes a trained infantryman 1.5 seconds to acquire, aim and hit a target...

That's a good point.

Cover v. concealment is covered in our training.

SQUEEZE the trigger. A pull is associated with a jerk. A jerk causes a miss, or worse an unintended hit (innocent bystander).

Also with the practice, they need to learn how to call their shots (lots of info about that from various successful IPSC/USPSA shooters).

Good point on the terminology. I need to look into shot calling.

TXAZ
January 18, 2012, 07:52 PM
1) Situational Awareness

wayneinFL
January 18, 2012, 08:15 PM
14. On a contact, make a habit of being in a position of tactical advantage;

That's good, but a little vague. Maybe you could expound upon that with some specifics.

For example, I've noticed that nowadays traffic cops tend to stand behind your window when they pull you over.

Hank15
January 18, 2012, 10:09 PM
5: Know the difference between cover and concealment

+300

People in sports such as airsoft or paintball forget that sometimes, resulting in their "death" for the round/match.

In real combat situations you don't get respawns...

NYC Drew
January 19, 2012, 01:26 AM
A radio can absolutely save your life. If you suffer potentially lethal wounds, another unit or a ambulance crew can make the difference between how great a guy you were, versus how awesome you are.

One of the oft overlooked criteria for winning a gunfight is previous training and conditioning that would allow you to function under (assumed) high stress levels.

hangglider
January 19, 2012, 02:54 AM
@NYC Drew:
Are there bands LEO or EMTs use available to "regular folk" to call for help without cell phone usage? I know some frequencies can be monitored but not transmitted on. I have an FCC ham license and there is an "autopatch" that we can use to phone through in case of emergency and local phone service is not available.

Nnobby45
January 19, 2012, 04:16 AM
In some ways, being in a dangerous, exciting situation, is like hopping across a stream on rocks. Once you start, you don't stop and good luck if you have all the steps planned out in advance.

I'm for a plan, and using good tactics. I also know what happens to plans once the battle starts.

Basic skills may serve you well, and you'd better have them.

Once things start to happen, your mind is trying to survive, and not very efficient at suddenly coming up with an ingenious plan to help you shoot accurately and suddenly find skills you don't have.

Robert Boatman points that out in his book, "Living With Glocks" and states it more elequently.

BlackFeather
January 19, 2012, 04:59 AM
Well, I may not be any where near as trained or proficient as others, but I have a couple suggestions.

Increasing reaction times. This can be practiced, while knowing your draw routine and being able to do it without error is something, learning to react quickly to the proper stimulus is important. I.E. Furtive movement.

Finding cover/concealment is great, but keeping an "eye" on your target is just as important. Knowing whether they are advancing, flanking, or retreating is vital.

Understand your opponents goals. Are they shooting defensively, offensively, or violently. To explain this, the defensive shooter wishes to leave, get away. The Offensive shooter has the intention to continue the fight, but still doesn't wish to die. The violent shooter doesn't care for themselves or you. I would change tactics based on the situation. This may already be covered but it sticks out in my mind.

Never use the same cover, position, timing, or tactic more than twice. By timing I mean waiting for them to stop firing before firing, and never doing that in the same place more than twice. An old teaching says just because it works the first two times, doesn't mean it will work a third.

Know the pros and cons of everything yo have to work with. The cons are more important. In other words, know how to defeat yourself to win against them. Not knowing your policies, defensive action is for me and most to be the objective, not seeking out and killing.

Your list seemed to be perfect as is, my mentions may just be a bit esoteric, but they are my thoughts.

MarkDozier
January 19, 2012, 05:42 AM
Hangglider - the bands you refer to are reserved for the specific use. However if the band will save your 6 the you can bet I will step on it. When saving my 6 there is only it helps or it does not help.

Pull the trigger is as correct , a nice steady pull straight back, as squeeze, as in squeeze it straight back. But 10 bucks says unless you are very well trained, your average patrol/detective is yanking the trigger in a fire fight.

The radio will not save your life;
I have to disagree. In any fight involving more than one friendly comm's are key to saving my life. As well as getting lifesaving help if i take a major hit.

Crossfire - I like crossfire if we are doing it. If you assume avoiding crossfire means avoid the bad guys CF then yes avoid it.

BGutzman
January 19, 2012, 12:00 PM
I dont pretend to be a LEO or have any LEO training whatsoever but I have lots and lots of military training and no I dont mean weekend warrior...

Here are my thoughts on your list.... Please note I am NOT in any way trying to be critical of your list. Hopefully maybe I can provide at least one new thing to think about and if not at least I tried to be helpful.
1. Get to cover;

2. Deploy your long gun;

3. If feasible, wait for backup before contact;

4. Establish fire superiority;

5. Distance is your friend;

6. Run away;

7. Stop the bleeding;

8. Move laterally;

9. Maneuver on the enemy's flank;

10. Watch their hands;


1. Situational awareness - The car behind you may run over you before you can get to cover... Also the driver may not be your biggest threat just the one your attention is on.

2. Have a mental plan to get to cover and try to think as your potential adversary might.

3. Get to cover or in the absence of cover in a very short time then present yourself as a reduced size target... Turn sideways or kneel or whatever you can do to present as little target area as possible while staying mobile enough to get to the better cover. I can’t count how many videos I see officers retreating in a full stance without crouching or they are facing full chest forward.

4. Unnecessary movement can result in unnecessary exposure.... A long gun for certain is great but its not so great if your going to get shot while you move to get it..... Your mental plan should have prepared you to execute or not execute this step.

5. If possible get the long gun..

6. Wait for backup while surveying potential attacks - will the BG shoot through the back window? Are they bucket seats that make turning toward you hard or are they bench seats that arent much of a problem??? Are they still seatbelted?

7. Understand the tactical situation - the BG(s) may decide its better to take you out and attack... Your car in that case may be more effective than the long gun, if you can set off the BGs air bags with a minor collosion (I have no idea if this is legal idea so ask a lawyer but it may have a place) it may provide the distraction and the tool needed to allow you the extra moment to deploy the long gun in the face of multiple opponents and employ the force as necessary while trying to wait for the backup.

8. Fire superiority may be your friend but accuracy and shock are your the point of your spear and your armor. Nothing takes the wind out of people like seeing the most agressive BG taken out.... The shock will probably be in part your volume of fire but keep in mind rounds that leave big spider tracks in windows will have a mental effect if the engagement becomes something longer than a few seconds.

9. Distance is your friend but dont expose yourself needlessly to get distance..... Your mental pre-plan should have given you some idea of if this will be practical... and like everything else it all depends on the actions of the BG(s)..

Willie Lowman
January 19, 2012, 12:32 PM
I can’t count how many videos I see officers retreating in a full stance without crouching or they are facing full chest forward.

Most body armor does not have panels under the arms/on the sides. If you are shot in the front you may well have ribs broken from a impact on a armored vest or have a bullet go through an important organ like a lung. If you are shot through the side you have turned body armor away from where it could do the most good and placed both lungs, as well as several other organs in a line for a bullet to pass through.

MikeRussell
January 19, 2012, 05:20 PM
However, facing "chest to" presents a larger target & increases your visibility which increases your chances of getting shot. It'd be better to get get side panels and present a smaller target when you do have to break concealment/cover to fire. I understand the red tape & pain it'd be to try to get new equipment, but better that pain than go "chest to" and catch a round.

jeepman4804
January 19, 2012, 07:08 PM
The problem with getting side panels in a LEO situation is that our armor is concealed under our uniform using a different style carrier and therefore it's not as simple as just buying side panels. It also severely restricts range of motion. Our jobs are a little different than someone in a war zone. More often than not we are hands on or using less lethal options do that range of motion is quite a big deal. Getting hit in the armor is not our main concern. It's usually that one lucky hit to the throat, head, or major artery in a leg that kills someone wearing body armor. Crouching or turning sideways will not reduce that target profile.

Catfishman
January 19, 2012, 11:40 PM
I like these:

Watch their hands if you suspect something is up.

Aim, if you have enough time.

Put your front sight on him if you have less time.

Point shoot from your bellybutton if you have no time.

If someone completely gets the drop on you, you might want to just run and seek cover, maybe shove and run.

I agree that distance is usually your friend.

I think having a "rotation" of guns is a mistake. It hurts familiarity. Remember, you have self defense guns and you have your collection.

bds32
January 21, 2012, 08:39 AM
I've done a lot of thinking on this matter over the years as I am an LEO also. I heard something recently from colleague who has spent some time in combat over the past few years. It solidified what I already knew. He said that we need to be forcing our adversaries to react to us instead of us reacting to them. Initially, we have to react. However, after that, winning or surviving would probably entail one of two things: taking the fight to the adversary or running away as fast and as tactically as you can. Since the second option is not an option for me, I am resolved to option one. I've heard this sort of advice from other men, particularly those who have survived a combat situation. It is working the OODA loop faster than your adversary, like fighter aces. Think of it sort of as a chess match. Do you win by being defensive? No, you do it by going offensive. So, intially taking cover is sound advice. However, remaining behind the cover while the suspect advances on you and outflanks you could cause you to lose. It is not absolute and a lot of this is dependent on the environment and the availability of other cover and concealment. For example, there is a police gunfight video out there where police officers are taking pistol fire from a suspect using his own pick-up truck for cover. After intially taking cover, one of the officers charges towards the suspect using available cover. He uses the suspect's vehicle to position himself and then shoots the suspect under the truck, in the leg or ankle causing the suspect to immediately quit the fight. While this was happening, he did have a back-up covering him as he advanced.

In addition to this, I think LEO's should have two handguns on them, a primary and a back-up. Some do, some don't. It is risk many are willing to take and I have taken it in the past at times. Pistols can break, get shot, get taken away, jam up, fall out while running or struggling. That second gun has saved lives.

CDR_Glock
January 21, 2012, 10:02 AM
SPeed and accuracy win.

The other guy can't hit a moving target. Likely, neither can you.

My tips:

NEVER GET INTO A GUNFIGHT.

Never drink alcohol, if you 100% carry.

Avoid trouble before it happens.

Never be somewhere you wouldn't go at night.

Never look for trouble.

Never be somewhere you wouldn't go at night, even with a gun.

Deescalation, Distraction and deception.

Better to be active than reactive.


iPad/Tapatalk

Kevin Rohrer
January 21, 2012, 11:27 AM
1. Try to contain the problem; don't let it go mobile.
2. The four rules of weapons' safety.
3. Don't abandon cover unless you are being out-flanked.
4. Don't get tunnel-vision.
5. Don't get side-tracked from the main problem
6. Better tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Rachen
January 21, 2012, 11:33 AM
Most importantly, is keep as much cool as possible.

Adrenaline has a way of blurring your perception and even making you stagger about as if in a daze.

In order to effectively analyze the situation and be on top, you must maintain a level head and be able to think while hell is breaking loose.

JustThisGuy
January 21, 2012, 02:55 PM
This is an excellent discussion and I'm glad that it has mostly focused on the OP's original intent (LEO training).

I do think that maintaining the 4 rules of safety should be at the very top of the list. Even if I were killed in a gunfight, I would not want one of my bullets to have taken out an innocent bystander. But that's just my priority.

I've learned a lot here.

Mike1234
January 21, 2012, 05:15 PM
Run for cover? What?!? Rooster Cogburn would be ashamed. "Fill yor hands you sunuvabit..." :D

Dwight55
January 21, 2012, 05:25 PM
You are right, Mike 1234, . . . but that was Rooster Cogburn.

Chicken Cogburn said, "He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day." :D

May God bless,
Dwight

Mike1234
January 21, 2012, 05:56 PM
If you have a robe and no sword then you'd better sell your robe to buy a sword... it's better to be naked and armed than clothed and disarmed.

SlopShot
January 24, 2012, 09:54 AM
http://www.jonesfamily.us/ron-jones/marine-corps/tactics/0057-how-win-gunfight

While parts of this list are a little humerus, there is a lot of truth behind some of these items. In particular #2 and #5

rtpzwms
February 6, 2012, 09:05 AM
Bring enough ammo to FINISH the job.

Mike1234
February 6, 2012, 09:57 AM
...

old bear
February 6, 2012, 10:54 AM
Lots of good advise so far, but let me add a few. 1- Avoid a fight whenever you can. 2- If you can't avoid a fight, you pick the time and place 3- Be as careful as you can, but remember the winner will usually be the one who took the fight to his enemy. 4- The person who can keep their whits when everyone else doesn't will generally win every time.

afone1
February 6, 2012, 10:59 AM
If you have to be in a gun fight, have a gun!

If you don't have a gun...run!

Hell, run anyway!

Nanuk
February 6, 2012, 11:22 AM
My thoughts,

Stop bleeding should be first priority once cover is reached. The most preventable cause of death in combat is bleeding. Learn combat basic combat first aid and carry a blow out kit.

A basic rule I found to be true: What you get out of the car with is what you have for the fight. If you carry light or carry the wrong gear you will know it.

Do you do situational training at your department? Can you get them to offer some IDPA type stages? Most cops would think it fun and it might just stimulate some brain cells.

R1145
February 6, 2012, 02:26 PM
I was away at training, and busy at work, so am just now checking the thread again.

Many of the comments relate to what I would call "strategy" rather than "tactics" (i.e., "Don't get into a gunfight"). Sound advice, but a bit beyond the scope of what I'm trying to accomplish with the list.

The basic behavior that defines a warrior is knowing what you need to do, then going out and doing it. These tips are just something to feed the lizard brain to keep you alive long enough so you can think of a solution (I guess that defines most training).

I have modified the list somewhat:

-changed "fire superiority" to "return fire": Same concept, but toned down due to the context in which we work;

-I'm going to be more specific on "tactical advantage", but I haven't figured it out yet;

-I'm adding 3 to the list: Aim for pelvis hits if body armor is suspected; Something about situational awareness; Know the difference between cover and concealment (especially offensively).

About the "radio won't save your life", clearly one needs to communicate and report. The point is, when the situation is getting hairy, to use the old platitude, backup is minutes away when seconds count.

All of these tips are highly situational, and don't apply to every incident, but, to use another old platitude, the exception proves the rule.

I wanted to keep each tip very short, but might add some detail, and even consolidate some (like the ones relating to cover/concealment).

I don't think I am going to distribute it as a list in class, because it is not policy or doctrine (and we labor under those constraints as instructors, which is probably a good thing...). I plan to use it as discussion points before we head out to the range.

SPEMack618
February 16, 2012, 09:32 PM
Something I've been munching over as I've read this thread, and thought awhile about is the importance of getting a long arm into play.

I've read about some LE deaths in shootouts and keep coming back to the thought of
"If that poor guy could have gotten his patrol carbine or riot gun working, he might have came out alive."

Therefore, I suppose situational awareness is critical in that if you can anticipate the situation prior to shots being fired, perhaps you can achieve the critical edge and bring your long arm into play.

Nnobby45
February 16, 2012, 09:45 PM
Your 27 item list of things to remember before and during a gunfight applies to training.

Once the fight starts, you may utilize SOME of the principles relevent to your specific problem, but you won't be thinking about most of them.

jgcoastie
February 17, 2012, 11:48 AM
1. Shoot Back. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight, so make your shots count.

2. Get to cover. This helps you not get shot.

3. You will probably get shot. Keep fighting.

Keep it simple.

SPEMack618
February 17, 2012, 04:37 PM
Another thing I've been pondering on is the level of aggression displayed in the fight.

Be aggressive; win. Something that was drilled into my head repeatedly at WLC was "A bad plan executed violently now is better than a good plan later."

lincoln5
March 8, 2012, 10:08 AM
As an LEO, I agree with the other posters that make rule #1
1. Avoid a gunfight!
2. If you are not an LEO and you have to deploy combat tactics like
those being being referred to in this thread in a "blue" state, don't
worry too much, you and your attacker can finish the fight in the "yard" at the county lock-up with a large, cheering audience

gman3
March 23, 2012, 10:53 PM
I know you guys have seen this...


http://www.aphf.org/10dead.pdf

Skadoosh
March 23, 2012, 10:54 PM
I'm still not entirely sure what rule #4 in the OP even means...

war_elephant
March 23, 2012, 11:08 PM
After 28 years in Law Enforcement, and many of them as a trainer, and firearms instructor, the most important item that I have not seen on the lists, (old eyes, I could have missed it. :eek: is "a WINNING MINDSET. Determining that you are going to WIN at all costs, and go home at the end of the day is paramount. I have instilled this mindset in many of my officers before retiring. I will not let some scumbag win, I will do whatever is necessary to survive. This mindset will cause you to wear your body armor, train, study tactical scenarios, learn to shoot tactically, etc. Like I used to tell the kids in the police academy in the first couple of days, the most important tool you have is your BRAIN.
PS, this should apply to anyone who is a CCW holder with certain adjustments.

My .002

Maximus856
March 25, 2012, 02:47 PM
Keep it simple.

jgcoastie got it right IMO. When training something as 'primal' as survival, keep your training simple. If I can throw my two scents in as far as the presentation go, break it up into sections and consolidate your points. Day time/night time, casualties/no casualties, open terrain vs. close quarter and the like. Elaborate a little, then train train and train some more. Classroom time is great but when you look for 101 points, much of the useful information will be lost in translation. Don't be vague, but get the simple things established, point out whats right/wrong, and let the questions from the trainees flow. I can't tell you how many times a 'boot' got flustered over something like a simple patrol formation because insignificant points were stressed.

"Powerpoint makes us stupid"
-General James Mattis.

Also, I agree with War Elephant. The winning mindset has been around for a long time. Theres a reason for famous prewar speeches. One more thing I'd like to add that I've noticed with many LEO's, is physical conditioning. While in the military, I was never a PT stud. But looking at some LEO's, they really need to hit the gym. When you start getting shot at, everything in your body goes into overdrive. This will greatly hinder your ability to move and mentally handle a situation if not physically able to do so in normal conditions. Not being in some sort of decent shape is pretty big sign of not being in the right mindset. I realize not every agency is a SWAT team, but if you're in a position to carry a gun and be responsible for your life as well as others, I'd think this would be of some sort of priority to an agency.

Bubba in c.a.
March 26, 2012, 08:13 PM
You guys are confusing me. What's wrong with "shoot him before he shoots me"?

kcub
March 26, 2012, 08:57 PM
If they have numerical superiority, minimize the angles of fire they have.
In other words maneuver to where they are in a line with you so the rearmost cannot shoot through their own guy(s) at you and you are effectively one on one.

If you have numerical superiority maximize the angle up to 90 degrees (full crossfire). Accomplish this and they are dead unless you run out of ammo before you hit them.

Mello2u
March 27, 2012, 02:05 PM
R1145

Top ten list for surviving a gunfight

Get a copy of Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense" It is a 42 page booklet published by Paladin Press. Mine is copyrighted 1972.

Therein he explains seven principles of the Combat Mindset.
1. Alertness
2. Decisiveness
3. Aggressiveness
4. Speed
5. Coolness
6. Ruthlessness
7. Surprise

Although Cooper does not use the term Combat Mindset in this essay, he later does come to use it. This essay is not one of technique. As he states in his foreword: "But the subject of this work is more basic than technique, being a study of the guiding principles of survival in the face of unprovoked violence on the part of extra-legal, human assailants."

The Combat Mindset includes many things, but it comes down to taking immediate decisive action in counter-attack when you are attacked.

ltc444
March 27, 2012, 07:07 PM
A lot of information and good thoughts. Following is the best comment I have ever read.

Murphy's Rules of Combat
Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you.

If the enemy is in range, so are you.

Don't look conspicuous -- it draws fire.

There is always a way.

Try to look unimportant -- they may be low on ammo.

Professionals are predictable -- it's the amateurs that are dangerous.

The enemy invariably attacks on one of two occasions:
1. When you're ready for them.
2. When you're not ready for them.

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.

Radios will fail as soon as you desperately need fire support.

If you can't remember, the claymore is pointed at you.

If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush.

When you are short of everything but enemy, you're in contact.

Don't draw fire. It irritates the people around you.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Incoming fire has the right of way.

When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.

When in doubt, empty the magazine.

Tracers work both ways.

Recoiless rifles ...aren't.

Suppressive fires ...won't.

Friendly fire ...isn't.

Anything you do can get you shot -- including doing nothing.

Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Mines are equal opportunity weapons.

The easy way is always mined.

Don't ever be the first, don't ever be the last, and don't ever volunteer to do anything.

The quartermaster has only two sizes: too large and too small.

Five second fuses only last three seconds.

It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed.

The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack.

A "sucking chest wound" is nature's way of telling you to slow down.

When you have secured an area, don't forget to tell the enemy.

Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.

No OPLAN ever survives the first contact.

A Purple Heart just proves that you were smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive.

If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.

I belive this is not copyrighted material. The source is below:

http://www.s2company.com/files/readings/murphy.htm

fastbolt
March 28, 2012, 03:40 PM
How much time do you have to provide this training?

Is it going to be classroom, range or both?

Is it a weapons class? Tactics class? Strategy class? Mindset class? Proficiency assessment/update class?

Is someone from higher up going to insert something at the last minute?

Is it going to be accredited as annual training (or whatever your POST equivalent might be)? Need to a pre-test & post-test?

You know the group of people you're going to be working with, we don't. Are there any specific perceived needs that have been expressed by any of your folks recently? Any shootings? Ambushes? Injured cops from an arrest? Any incidents that have highlighted some perceived need to be addressed?

Remember that you're going to have to provide useful and easily learned info that can be absorbed by the "least common denominator". Unless you're teaching a SWAT or special enforcement unit, don't teach to that audience. The least capable (and interested) person ought to be able to leave the training area and apply things you've taught.

Here in CA we have something POST has been doing called Instructor Development. The basic class is only a week long, but it teaches many things necessary to teach adults. Differences in learning styles, etc. It also emphasizes creating student involvement when it comes to students becoming participants group teaching dynamics. Useful for classroom environments, especially since it can help you pull out useful experiences that may be found within your student audience to the benefit of all students. Increases learning effectiveness. Increases student interest.

Be prepared to take whatever list of topics you'd like to cover ... and then cut it by 70% in order to create a practical teaching environment within the time constraints you're ultimately given. ;)

Mindset. ;)

Seaman
March 28, 2012, 07:18 PM
Top ten list for surviving a gunfight

1. Always maintain cool, sweaty palms, panic, etc. ....not an option.
2. Be aware of: front, back, flanks, and assailants' weapons.
3. Shoot the heaviest caliber you can shoot accurately, meaning at least a 1" group at 7 yards.
4. Never give weapon up, never surrender, even if perp has knife to hostage's throat, even if perp has drop on you...clear the holster to 1st shot in under half a second...Bill Jordan could do this, so can you.
5. Shoot accurately: single/double for 45 ACP, doubles for 40 S&W, triples or more for smaller calibers.
6. Shoot one-handed, you need the other hand.
7. If facing a single attacker, always move to attacker's weak side.
8. If facing multiple attackers, shoot leader first, then anyone with a long gun.
9. Always move, zig-zag to/from hard cover, unpredictability is good, be a ghost.
10. Retreat is OK, just do it like Rommel.

Fight hard, good luck, and
check your 6.