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stonewall50
January 15, 2012, 09:15 AM
I recently had a friend attacked by a dog. She was put in the hospital, but she is ok now. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with such issues, and if they can make any recomendations. A firearm is probably not going to be the first answer in this particular situation because the person I would like to pass the information off to is not 21.

I have heard about pepper spray, but I would like to know more about the different types as far as dogs are concerned. Should a gel be used? Or a spray? I have recommended gel to friends for humans, but I know nothing about dogs.

Any first hand knowledge, LEO or otherwise, would be greatly appreciated.

hangglider
January 15, 2012, 09:57 AM
I'm a dog-owner and lover--and just like with firearms--owners are responsible for the behavior of their dogs. Most dog owner's in the areas I live in are simply ignorant (or don't care) of the law regarding dogs--which in most areas holds that the owner is responsible for the behavior of their dog off their property. My dogs are on leash and controlled at all times except when in a dog park or in my fenced-in back yard. I still get attacked by other dogs occasionally--but so far a firm "sit" yelled out, along with a warning growl from my Lhotse, has stopped all dogs of all sizes in their tracks. I personally would hate to hurt a dog--but a dog off leash and attacking can maim or kill a human--so I think the justified force doctrine applies--especially if children are involved. BTW--aggressive dogs kept outside the home most of the time are often used by drug dealers as early-warning and deterrent "devices." I'd say your friend has a good case to go after the dog owner if she is so inclined--at least for medical bills and possibly for a citation if the dog was off leash. I do carry when walking my dogs--and there was/is a drug dealer in the hood that had an especially large German Shepherd that was obviously trained to attack--in that case I would have drawn and shot the dog without hesitation if it attacked and was about to lunge (dogs will often rush and then stop just short--a "dare" kind of thing).

WeedWacker
January 15, 2012, 10:06 AM
A walking stick and training might be a good idea and will serve well into later years. Pepper can sometimes fail and can also blow back in your face if the wind is strong and coming from a bad direction, so caution is needed when implementing this method. A pocket knife could be a last ditch final line of defense but you would need a rather large knife and I'm not sure how laws in your area will affect that.

What sort of activities is your friend participating in when the risk of a dog attack presents itself?

Willie Lowman
January 15, 2012, 10:15 AM
I have used Saber Red spray to deter overly aggressive dogs when I am cycling.

There was a pretty good pepper spray thread on T&T a few months ago.

stonewall50
January 15, 2012, 10:25 AM
Just to answer, my friend was on a neighborhood walk. I don't know if she was in her home town or college town, but I know it was the area she lives at.

I have heard of saber red. I do know that dogs respond to pain, and that the right spray and the right attitude can change things. My friend is not a large person, so what works for a large man may not work for her.

I do know that pepper gel is not as blown about by the wind like spray is. I have personally tested some pepper gel on a windy day. There was little change in pattern at about 10 feet other than a slight sideways stream that was easily corrected.

Oh and leash laws are not as harsh as they are in other places. It isn't a suburb and a lot of people don't leash their dogs or really have any control.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 10:27 AM
For most dogs, good body language is sufficient to deter them from closing within arm's (or kick's) reach.

Really, for most of them, not showing fear, but talking in a calm, friendly but forceful tone has worked very well.

In cases where that seems unlikely to work, a good stick often gets attention. So can picking up a rock (or miming same).

Spray can work, but note wind direction.

Dog whistles could work.

A gun would not be my first choice for most dogs, but would be my first choice for a drug dealer's attack dog.

jhenry
January 15, 2012, 10:28 AM
A good OC works fine. Folks will come along and say it dosen't work all the time etc. and so forth. We should remember that guns don't stop the threat all the time either. You friend should gain some understanding of dog behavior, and take along a stick and OC. I would prefer a good sized can that gives a longer range stream.

stonewall50
January 15, 2012, 10:34 AM
For myself, a gun is usually my only defense. It is very difficult for me to try and carry pepper spray, and a large stick I would have to find. But that is because my own routine does not involve going through evil dog infested areas. The only time that happens a nice swift opening of the truck door solves the problem because I am not out of the vehicle.

But from what yall are saying a stick might help with a dog? What concerns me is that it could **** an aggressive dog off. For a small framed woman that may not help. On top of that is of course that I don't know if this woman has the ability for the skull crushing blows of someone like you or me. I have watched a grown man punch an overly aggressive dog in the head and knock it out cold for a minute or so. But this man was a beast of a man and hit him directly on the top of the head.

What kind of dog defense stick are we talking here?

jhenry
January 15, 2012, 10:48 AM
A simple walking stick. I have used one to fend off dogs with no blows at all. Simply having a stick will keep many dogs at bay. It would give time to spray the thing for instance. Another thing I have done several times is to simply stoop down and pick up a rock. If there are no rocks then pretend to pick one up, they can't tell. Most country dogs have been rocked a time or two and didn't like it. I am not saying it will work for every person every time, but I will tell you that every time I have done it the dog acted like I had a force field around me.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 10:49 AM
A Blackthorn walking stick would be a good example.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 10:50 AM
jhenry, we seem to have encountered similar dogs.

stonewall50
January 15, 2012, 10:57 AM
Alrighty guys. Thanks for those answers. A stick sounds like a great plan. I am sure the particular dog is being put down as we speak (incident happened this morning), but I would like to have an understanding for myself so I can pass it on as well.

I understand posutre and dog behavior and all of that. I am just worried about stopping the dog that isn't deterred. I myself am not afraid of dogs in the slightest, I grew up being inches from cage aggressive dogs in the animal hospital. I have even been able to use the catch poll before too.

Sparks1957
January 15, 2012, 11:02 AM
I grew up with intense contact with animals of several species, and understand them pretty well. Better than I understand people, in fact.

Almost any dog I have ever met will back off if you have a stick in your hand, if you brandish it a bit and combine it with some stern vocal commands. Same with rocks, just stooping as if you're picking one up will makes most dogs think twice.
They are often testing your resolve, and if they sense they have the upper paw, they'll proceed with the attack. In that case, hit them as hard as you can.

catnphx
January 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
A few weeks ago while hiking, my German Shepherd and I had a close encounter with two Rhodesian Ridgeback (aka African Lion) dogs ... I had to draw my weapon on them, but since I'm familiar with dogs I didn't shoot. These dogs showed attack behavior up until the last 10 yards (of their 100 yard sprint to us). In addition, we encounter coyotes (solo and packs of six) very often when we hike.

I recently started carrying Counter Assault Bear Spray as my first line of defense. I emailed the company and they told me that their spray is effective to deter dogs and coyotes from continuing their attack. I've also seen bear spray used in youtube videos on attacking dogs and it appears to work. I purchased my 8 oz can at Sportsman Warehouse for about $40.

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Counter-Assault-Pepper-Bear-Sprays/productDetail/Pepper-Sprays/prod9999000026/cat100464

http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/img/products/original/707387_1.jpg

ltc444
January 15, 2012, 12:19 PM
As a former high mileage runner, I have had many encounters with loose dogs. The only bite I recieved was a small fiese dog. He caught my heel and I had to have stitches.

The best defense I found was a golf club. A 7 iron was best for me.

It is lightweight but the head will immediately disable a pit bull if applied to the base of the skull.

PawPaw
January 15, 2012, 12:31 PM
The best defense I found was a golf club. A 7 iron was best for me.

That's thinking outside the box. I applaud the idea. Lightweight, non-threatening, very pc, but a suitable club if necessary. I would caution about using a 2-iron, cause no one can use a 2-iron.

publius
January 15, 2012, 01:08 PM
Pawpaw and I are thinking alike, I carry a cheap 3 wood(aluminum).

Grant D
January 15, 2012, 01:14 PM
Simple...electric Cattle prod works great on a dog. Cost about $50.00
Light and easy to carry when you can't use your gun.
Was walking to a friends houise down the street one night and was attacked by three dogs, one round into the ditch and they all scattered but I live in the country so can fire anywhere in the area, even from my front porch.

Kevin Rohrer
January 15, 2012, 03:03 PM
Police-issue OC works well. I have had several large, viscious dogs (including a pit bull and a Rot) turn tail when hit in the eyes with it.

Capt Charlie
January 15, 2012, 03:04 PM
This one's remained civil, but if you do a search here, there's been a bunch of previous doggy threads, most of them closed when emotions ran too high.

So we don't have to close another one, keep this civil and on topic.... please!

Dwight55
January 15, 2012, 03:58 PM
A number of years ago, had a neighbor who raised and showed Norwegian Elkhounds, . . . and did quite well at it.

She ALWAYS kept a plastic squeeze bottle in her hip pocket, . . . half water, and half ammonia.

She would spray a rag from her belt with it and throw in on any offending dog that wanted to bite, fight, or just cause trouble.

End of problem.

I don't know all the psychology or chemistry involved, . . . but it worked for her and she was a professional dog showing person (whatever you call them).

It is my choice if I would be in any situation where I would be fearful of dogs.

May God bless,
Dwight

Carne Frio
January 15, 2012, 04:38 PM
I carry bear spray and either a 44 magnum or 10mm.
I have used the bear spray 4 times in the last 4 years
on large aggressive dogs. It worked great every time.
Haven't had to shoot one in at least 6 years. Dog owners
frown on shot dogs and don't seem to mind that their
dogs get peppered, now and then.:D

manta49
January 15, 2012, 05:02 PM
Pepper spray is illegal here concealed firearms are illegal. So that leaves your boot. But i must say its not a problem i or any one i know has come up against.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 05:23 PM
Are shillelagh illegal in N. Ireland?

manta49
January 15, 2012, 05:36 PM
MLeake
Senior Member


Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 6,622 Are shillelagh illegal in N. Ireland.

Yes you are allowed a big stick. As long as you dont hit anyone with it.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 05:38 PM
So you couldn't hit a dog? Could you at least menace it, and make it think you could?

If so, that is much better than a boot. At least, the results aren't as immediately bad, if the dog bites the offending object.

manta49
January 15, 2012, 05:53 PM
Could do. The fact that i am 50 and have never being attacked by a dog its not top on my list of things to worry about. If i was concerned about getting attacked by a dog a walking stick with a heavy end on it would do the job.

PS. Had to look up shillelagh knew it was a stick of some sort.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 06:25 PM
And you being a son of Ireland, and all... begorrah...

Anyway, the OP just had a friend and neighbor attacked by a dog, so it's a more acute concern for him.

P97
January 15, 2012, 06:50 PM
A walking stick has always worked for me. There's very few dogs that haven''t been hit with a stick during their lives, and they know that a stick can hurt them. Facing them, and standing your ground can go a long way too. They can sense fear.

stonewall50
January 16, 2012, 10:30 AM
Thanks guys. My friend is sore today and doin well. She wants to learn more about the pepper spray.

I am curious if anyone knows how well an OC Gel works? The reason I say this is because it is also good for people. Gel is more of a contact type, and not really inhaled, but it is very easy to aim.

I am also going to recomend a stick. I actually do have access to cattleprods, having been on dozens of cow calls in my life. I have even been zapped a few times with them.

rebs
January 16, 2012, 01:26 PM
IMHO a large number of vicious dogs are actually afraid of people and attack in self defense regardless of what you may be doing. They feel threatened. If you react in a non threatening way with a calm firm voice most attacks can be avoided. There is also the occasional dog that has been beaten or abused and wants to bite anyone.

Hook686
January 16, 2012, 10:46 PM
... warning growl from my Lhotse, has stopped all dogs of all sizes in their tracks.

hmmmm Lhotse is a mountain. Can you show a picture of your dog ?

jimmythegeek
January 16, 2012, 11:00 PM
I was walking along when a sneaky little appetizer snuck up and nipped me. Then backed off and sat there, with what I strongly believe was a mocking, sneering expression. I ran at it, sort of a bluff charge to chase it back to its yard (where its owners were watching). Dog called my bluff, in mid-stride I changed from bluff charge to real intent, visualizing it going through the uprights. When I got a few strides away it's eyes gogged and it sprinted home.

"You should control your dog."

"That's not our dog."

I just stared a moment. It looked to you for shelter, didn't it? Didn't pursue it. It was gratifying to see canine smug turn to abject terror.

I know, I know, 'cool story, bro'

Hook686
January 16, 2012, 11:01 PM
She would spray a rag from her belt with it and throw in on any offending dog that wanted to bite, fight, or just cause trouble.




Yeah, I suspect even a dilute solution of ammonia will destroy the eyes ... I think it might hurt if it gets into the eyes.

hangglider
January 17, 2012, 03:10 AM
Lhotse is a 30 lb Tibetan Terrier--so named because the breed comes from the Himalaya; Lhotse being the third highest mountain in the world. I also have a female named Jannu. They are used by Buddhist monks as watchdogs in the Lamaseries and they will always know what's going on in and around the home. Incredible dogs with generally a benevolent loving temperament for the "home pack", but a bit of maintenance as the have extremely thick and long double coats to deal with some of the most extreme winter conditions on earth. Although the breed is fairly small to medium in size, they generally have a boxy head with very powerful jaws and long fangs and will give most dogs of any size a run for their money except the breeds that are purposefully trained as attack dogs. My attitude about that is owning an attack dog involves just as much responsibility--maybe more--as does owning firearms. Attack dogs are almost always a dead giveaway for drug dealers in the areas I live in.

Nitesites
January 17, 2012, 03:48 AM
What about those handheld air horns? Something extra loud; use it for a non-lethal first line of defense...

http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/Falcon_FC4N_Commander_4_Air_Horns.html

catnphx
January 17, 2012, 08:36 AM
Stonewall50 said: I am curious if anyone knows how well an OC Gel works? The reason I say this is because it is also good for people. Gel is more of a contact type, and not really inhaled, but it is very easy to aim.


Gel won't work well on animals because you have to be exact in your aim, which is hard to do when they are charging you. Dogs need a full nostril shot to make them get the point and a fog works best. Watch this quick video of a pitbull stop on a dime with a fog spray ... hard to do this with a gel on a charging dog.

Pit Bull Sprayed with Bear Spray (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jsgvUohhpqc)

stonewall50
January 17, 2012, 10:35 AM
Thanks cat. That was what I was thinking. OC gel works great on people because of the skin burn and all of that. It is also easy to aim and blows back less.

I just bought some muzzle to test fire and I am probably going to get her a can as a present.

12GaugeShuggoth
January 17, 2012, 04:24 PM
Sorry for the long post, but I'd just say be careful making assumptions as to what is "enough" for defense against any animals that might be hostile or rabid, whether it be dog, bear, chupacabra or whatever else is out there. I've seen a rabid dog take 00 buckshot and keep coming strong, I think of it like the superman effect some drugs can give people.

I had a rabid dog charge me once and a point blank (literally within 5-10 feet) 12 gauge 00 shot didn't seem to even get the dogs' attention. If it weren't for the fact that it could barely walk after the shot, let alone charge me, I fully believe that dog would've had me. The dog ended up being put down by a .22 through the skull, but upon examination the shotgun blast had done considerable damage to the vital area, in addition to severe damage to two of it's legs.

Not trying to be morbid with the details, but it amazed me how much that dog was able to take without going down. After the shot I took, it continued towards another person (the one with the .22) and absorbed a number of hollowpoint rounds all to the head and neck region before one finally hit the right spot and dropped it.

If I was specifically looking for a non-firearm defense to use against dogs and such, I wouldn't settle for less than the bear pepper spray. FWIW we weren't out hunting dogs or anything, that particular dog had broken in to our chicken pen and had killed over 12 of them. When we went to investigate the noises, the dog charged from inside the pen. Examining the pen after the fact it looked like the dog had chewed through the wire fencing to get in.

When we contacted animal control they told us that they had been looking for that dog for several weeks because of similar incidents and that the dog had already been shot before. Dogs in general are awesome and I love them, but rabid dogs are a completely different animal.

Superhouse 15
January 17, 2012, 07:03 PM
You should know that "Muzzle" and "Halt" and the like are much weaker than OC sprays designed for use against humans. I personally prefer the stream sprays over the fogs just for reason of wind. You can always spray an area with it, and the range is better to deter a dog that stops just short on a charge.

Right now I use MSI 10% spray in a flip top canister. I keep it in my EMS gear ar work just for dogs.

C0untZer0
January 17, 2012, 11:20 PM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/01/17/pit-bull-attack-victim-these-were-not-just-regular-dogs/

I'm a little bit dissapointed that the man's reaction is basically "we need more laws" Instead of "If I were allowed to carry I'd still have my foot".

But oh well.. some people don't get it...

What finally stopped these dogs though were bullets...

BlackFeather
January 18, 2012, 02:41 AM
A pocket knife could be a last ditch final line of defense but you would need a rather large knife and I'm not sure how laws in your area will affect that.

Three inches usually works for people, why not dogs?

I prefer a contact weapon against dogs, in my own experiences they don't give you the option to aim before they are in biting range. A simple pocket knife and some practice with opening it should be enough to stop an attack. I prefer cutting but stabbing is usually a more... lethal approach. Of course a young girl may not want to do this, may freeze up out of fear, or may not be able to put it into use. Though, that could be said of many items...

TexasJustice7
January 18, 2012, 03:37 AM
CountZero: What finally stopped these dogs though were bullets...

My brother had to stop a Pit Bull with a 45 and it still almost got him. I am diabetic myself, and a dog bite even by a small dog can result in months of wound care at a wound care clinic, and being a veteran that will be expensive for taxpayers, unless the dog owner has deep pockets and pays for all that care at a local wound care clinic. Although there is a state leash law in Texas a lot of small communities don't have a municipal one. I would hate to shoot any dog, but I will stop one that gets close enough to bite me.
I don't believe a walking stick will stop some vicious pitt bulls. I used to carry pepper spray on my keychain, till the VA restricted it. So now if I get dog bit
it will be the VA's problem or the dog owner if I have to be treated for months at a local wound care center. I no longer carry it at all, since its
difficult to take it on and off all the time. Fortunately when I have to be
admitted for wound care, the State provides respite care sending someone out 24/7 for my disabled daughter. :eek:

Rj1972
January 18, 2012, 11:34 AM
Just a reminder to check local laws on OC. Here in Texas, it's supposed to be a can under a certain size (although I think it's a little vague if I recall). Bear spray is not allowed here.

I like the horn idea too. I wonder if the cattle prods make noise like some taser guns do. I don't know about a dog but if I was walking up to someone who had something in his hand that made that electrical "I'm about to light you up" noise I'd probably stop.

And I'd tend to recommend a layering approach. The stick sounds nice because you already have it out & in your hand. The dog can see it & think twice at the start. If he continues, then it buys you some extra time before the spray. With spray only, he's got to get within X (15?) feet of you before he knows you're going to fight back (ignoring body language of course).

dyl
January 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
Sorry to hear about your friend. Dog bites happen "for a reason" but some dogs have been raised poorly so their reasoning is a tad bit off.

Brainstorming:
Here's something you could make a fun actuvity of: about OC gel-do you want to test it 1 more time, noting the spread at different ranges? You could set an upright target and do a quick burst, step back, repeat, note the distance and group size. Better yet, purchase a feasible carry package of both OC and you could run the same procedure with the friend (most importantly) pulling the trigger and you could assist with the setup and documentation. that might help get her mentally back on her feet. Documentation doesn't need to be precise (inches) but I do think the distance in feet and rough references would help (plate sized? Torso sized?). Mostly for the reason that I myself have a hard time sometimes judging distance given a number and your friend might too. Perhaps the targets could be down low, maybe add a human height target in there too while you're at it.

The two kinds might behave VERY differently but maybe not. Nothing beats testing it out for yourself. What I have heard (jaust hear say) is that usually the debate against OC gel is that some humans/inmates will wipe it off and throw it back at you. If a dog can do that, we need to rethink the plan :) regarding getting a nostril full as a requirement: I don't have any experience with gel so if you still have that bottle maybe you could see if anything fumes out or strictly stays in the goo.

I once bought a friend a small can of mace. And though it would be fun getting an old timey Flanged Mace as an expensive gag gift. Best wishes.

dyl
January 20, 2012, 10:04 AM
- inspiration for that exercise was from watching a Gabe Suarez video testing shotgun spread pattern. If you do it, I forgot to mention that drawing an outline around each group size labeled w/ the distance might make things easier. You end up with concentric circles on the target. Not sure that would work with spray unless it is colored. Nice part is that it would be easy to set up- no need for a range. Just make sure no kids down wind and wash your hands asap. And no shaking hands with strangers before you do unless you're trying to add some excitement to their life.

No pun intended in first paragraph of my previous post. Too soon.

Perhaps a nice get well present would be a bag full of things that clinked like metal bottles inside. Maybe friends and family could pitch in.

God bless.

jhenry
January 20, 2012, 11:30 AM
Jogging with a slower friend might help.

RockRiverWhisper
January 20, 2012, 11:35 AM
wasp and hornet spray, works great out to 20' and a lot cheaper than pepper spray, and legal any were.

Mike1234
January 20, 2012, 12:01 PM
I carry...

1. A sturdy walking stick... will soon replace it with a thin steel baseball practice bat.

2. A can of 4oz 18% pepper spray carried in a belt pouch.

3. A 9mm pistol.

k511
January 20, 2012, 12:18 PM
I carry an Asp baton insted of mace for non lethal force...a short story about mace....years ago the neighbors dog wondered onto our property and was met by my shepards...long story short, they got into it, i interviened, wife came out with her mace.....end result, me on the ground from backspray, dogs still going at it....brother saved the day with a shovel (no loss of life)...

Mike1234
January 20, 2012, 12:53 PM
"Ace of Mace In the Face"? :D

Sorry that happened to you though.

Lee McNelly
January 20, 2012, 01:03 PM
louiville slogger

k511
January 20, 2012, 01:13 PM
lol haha Mike

MLeake
January 20, 2012, 01:23 PM
Without wishing to start a flame war, wasp and hornet spray is a hugely bad idea.

Setting aside the probable reaction of dog owners or dog lovers, use of a POISON against a human attacker will get you in just as much trouble as would use of a gun.

Mace, OC, etc could be used as less-than-lethal alternatives across a spectrum of attackers that would include humans; wasp spray could not.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 20, 2012, 03:58 PM
http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/waspspray.asp

Mleake nailed it.

Panfisher
January 20, 2012, 09:20 PM
Not everyone is physically or mentally capable of taking on a large dog with a stick. i.e. my 18 year old daughter, loves animals, is about 100 pounds soaking wet and likes to jog, tough to jog with a walking stick. Stream type pepper spray will work on dogs, perhaps not on all dogs, but I would rather her carry something that worked on 85% of dogs than not carry anything while looking for the perfect thing. Kind of like a .22LR pistol on your person is better than a .45 back at the house.

If walking, a lightweight walking stick similar to a ski-pole or the cold steel sjambok or similar item works well, much lighter than a club sized walking stick and can used in a full swing with pretty good result. Most dogs know what sticks are and don't like to get too close. Never run, back away slowly and stand tall, use a loud forceful voice, most dogs will respond to it. I am a dog lover and have stared or backed down many dogs, and have been bit also (mostly because I ignored the little rat b$#@%^%d, instead of dealing with it), and as much as I like dogs, the life of a person who isn't attacking me or my family is worth more than the dog. As for a knife shouldn't everyone carry a mini-griptillian sized one hand opening knife anyway??

Mike1234
January 21, 2012, 07:15 AM
Some dogs don't back down. I had a run-in with three loosed pit bulls that were stalking me and darned near didn't back down even though I advanced (slowly) at them while I was yelling and loudly rattling my many bags of groceries raise high in the air. They BARELY backed down. I shot that leader pit bull in the head about a week later as it was killing another neighbor's dog. I did it because I knew that PB would eventually kill a human being... maybe a child.

manta49
January 21, 2012, 07:40 AM
Don't have to worry about pit-bulls here they are illegal to own under the dangerous dogs act. Also you have to have a dog licence for your dog, and a law is proposed that they will also have to be microchipped.

MLeake
January 21, 2012, 09:46 AM
The UK, it's like CA and NYC, but more rustic...

At least there are residents in CA and NYC who recognize and resist governmental nannyism...

manta49
January 21, 2012, 12:32 PM
You are right if you want to see a good example of the nanny state look at the UK.

MLeake
January 21, 2012, 12:38 PM
Do you have any groups akin to NRA or SAF, Manta49?

If so, do they get any traction?

Sorry for the veer...

manta49
January 21, 2012, 02:10 PM
MLeake. You have the BASC - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation but it is pretty toothless. www.basc.org.uk

garryc
January 21, 2012, 03:01 PM
Three times.

One while walking down the road after hunting with my 357 for woodchucks. Three dogs came down from a barn, the farmer was on the porch watching. I bet he thought it funny. I pulled out the 357 and loaded it. He yelled, "You better not shoot them dogs!" I yelled back, "You better call them off!" He didn't. One was a big shepherd that came at me with teeth snarled and growling. 357 took care of that, the farmer never left the porch.

The second time I was in a ditch about waist deep cutting roots with an axe. I heard the other guys yell, "Garry, look out!" I turn and see this big dog coming at me. I hit it across the back with that axe and severed its spine.

The third time was on my parents property. The guy across the street had a pit/chow mix. He would let it run loose and chase people. It had run my sick mother into the house, that almost killed her. I told him if I saw that dog on my property again I would kill it on sight. Some time later I was walking up from the creek. I had my Super Blackhawk on me. Here came this dog right at me. I shot that piece of crap, and then realized the neighbor was watching. He got cited for his loose dog after he called the sheriff.

I won't give a person that is going to attack me any quarter, why would I do it for someones viscous dog. If I perceive that I'm about to be attacked I kill it, no questions asked or hesitation taken.

hangglider
January 21, 2012, 03:07 PM
Let me get this straight--if a dog charges you you're going to blast them--regardless of whether or not the dog is simply "testing?" Many dogs are "watchdog" types--they instinctively will guard the border of a property and feint an attack without actually doing it.

MLeake
January 21, 2012, 03:17 PM
Funny... I've heard of cases where people did really bad things to people over harm to their dogs. From major destruction of property, to physical assaults....

There are times when shooting might be necessary, but it should be a last resort. The legal line is more forgiving than the line for shooting people would be, but the repercussions aren't necessarily limited to what the law might do.

Probably a good thing that farmer didn't have a deer rifle handy, or your .357 vs German Shepherd story might have had a different outcome.

Look also at the Fish case. He was eventually acquitted on appeal, but that was a case of warning shots vs dog, and look how that owner (not a stable person in the first place) reacted, and what happened.

Internet posturing often ignores what can happen in the real world.

And saying you wouldn't give a person any quarter could come back to bite you, hard, if any SD shooting were ever remotely questionable. Predisposition to execute an attacker... he said it right here, your honor.

garryc
January 21, 2012, 03:44 PM
Let me get this straight--if a dog charges you you're going to blast them--regardless of whether or not the dog is simply "testing?" Many dogs are "watchdog" types--they instinctively will guard the border of a property and feint an attack without actually doing it.

I'm not on another persons property, I'm in a public place or my families property. I'm not going too wait to see if it is "testing" me anymore than if it's a gang banger "testing" me. If it is testing me to see what I'll do, it will get the results of that test forthwith.

I got chewed up by a dog as a young kid on a public street, never again.

Nitesites
January 21, 2012, 03:55 PM
What about those dog whistles? Do they actually work?

As I type this, my dog is chewing on the toe of my sock. With my foot still in it no less...

garryc
January 21, 2012, 04:17 PM
The guy had a natural right to use that level of force, case closed, doctrines be damned.

Mike1234
January 21, 2012, 04:24 PM
I recently spoke to my next door neighbor about one of his three large dogs he lets run free. As long as they do no harm most people don't mind... this is a rural community and all the loosed dogs help keep feral hogs and coyotes away. The female has always been a bit more aggressive than the two males but for a few days she charged with bared teeth with far more intent to attack.

I told my neighbor that I don't want to harm his dog but will defend myself if I must. He agreed and understood that the female is more aggressive. He knows I carry a big stick and a 9mm and will use either if need be. I gave him a choice of stung gun or pepper spray if I need to use a little more force than waving the stick. He picked pepper spray... so I explained the possible issues with his kids touching the dog(s) should they get peppered. I said I'd tell him or his wife if they're home or leave a note on his gate if they're not.

Fortunately, his dogs have settled down to normal again. I hope they stay that way because I don't want to hurt them. Don't misunderstand me... I'll blow their brains if if I must. I just don't want to.

Capt Charlie
January 21, 2012, 04:26 PM
It's time, I guess. Just about everything constructive that can be said, has been said, and as in most of these doggy threads, emotions are beginning to run high.

It was inevitable, so let's end this while it's still more or less on a positive note.

Closed.