PDA

View Full Version : Any time, any place


LockedBreech
January 13, 2012, 07:39 PM
Hey all,

I wanted to share this. It happened last summer, but I didn't think to share it here. I like to think of it as a simple reminder: Carry a gun always, or not at all. You cannot predict trouble.

Last year, as I've mentioned before, my friend wanted to get a gun and start shooting. He wanted to spend about $400. Based on my experiences on here, I helped him pick a Stoeger Cougar 8000 F in 9mm. I then helped him learn to shoot with it, and we found an easy-to-acquire locally, easy-to-shoot defense load (124gr Federal Hydra Shok) that fed reliably. No permit was necessary, as Wyoming recently went permitless. I encouraged him to carry whenever possible. The Beretta-derived Cougar, while a bit bulky, is still concealable and I wanted him getting in the habit.

At the time I helped him, I had been carrying 2.5 years or so. I had never had even a close call. After three weeks of carrying, he did. While at home, working a late shift at his restaurant (as a manager, he closes up) the current boyfriend of one of his exes approached.

The restaurant closing at 11 PM, it was close to 12:30 AM by the time my friend got finished with closing tasks. The new boyfriend had been lying in wait. A few weeks before, irritated by his ex's constant texts, my friend had told her to leave him alone . For some reason, this irritated the boyfriend. A recent military (though no longer) member (Army, I think), he was taller and stronger than my friend, and was standing between him and his car in a dark parking lot with no one else in sight.

The boyfriend began belligerently talking to my buddy about what a fag he was, etc, and how he had to be taught to stop running his mouth. My buddy, to my immense pride, had followed my advice and was carrying. He pushed his jacket over the grip of the Cougar, staked with 15+1, and told the boyfriend "Leave me alone right now."

My friend was subjected to the usual tirade of the cowardly against a target suddenly not helpless. What a coward he was. What a weakling. Then he retreated like his rear was on fire.

I carried (and have continued to carry) for years without issue. My mom decades without issue. My friend carried for less than a month, and simply brandishing his weapon was enough to save him from a beating at the very least. In the aftermath, my friend called the police and reported the boyfriend. According to the police, the boyfriend was ordered to stay away and so far has done so. Apparently left the state. Also according to the police, my friend was 100% within his rights.

The lessons and questions and opportunities to learn here are myriad, and the thread about times you've needed your gun made me think of the main one.
1. How many times have you left your gun at home because you didn't predict trouble? My friend certainly didn't predict it leaving work.
2. Are you familiar enough with your gun to be 100% confident?
3. In a situation like this, do guns with any question as to reliability, even just to pass muster at all?
4. Have you thought about getting a friend into guns? You could save a life.

I hope this helps someone in some way. Thanks for reading.

Not that it's related to anything, but I upgrade him to the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot after that, my treat (I'm a heavy for caliber believer).

shootniron
January 13, 2012, 08:42 PM
Get ready for the opinions from The Firing Line court.

Majority
Concurring
Dissenting
Per Curiam

kinggabby
January 13, 2012, 09:14 PM
I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do. It gives up your secret identity (Conceal Carry Man ). But seriously it does give the other guy more info than what he needs. Hey this guy has a gun and his ex-girlfriend knows where he lives. Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma. Here if you show it it better be drawn and or fired. But pulling a shirt so it can be seen you are looking for fines and possible jail time. Not to mention you can loose your gun,your CCW and and no telling what else.

LockedBreech
January 13, 2012, 09:20 PM
Maybe I should have been clearer. The aggressor was at arms length, verbally threatening loudly with balled fists, lying in wait after midnight. My buddy showed the butt of a pistol with the safety on without drawing.

Friar Whently
January 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do. It gives up your secret identity (Conceal Carry Man ). But seriously it does give the other guy more info than what he needs. Hey this guy has a gun and his ex-girlfriend knows where he lives. Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma. Here if you show it it better be drawn and or fired. But pulling a shirt so it can be seen you are looking for fines and possible jail time. Not to mention you can loose your gun,your CCW and and no telling what else.

Wait...so it's cool to physically pull your gun out, but you can face legal consequences if you just pull open your jacket and show it?

Crankgrinder
January 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
i do not know what the difference is between that and telling the man that you are armed. to some people hearing one say " i have a gun" is almost more of a dare than a warning. i suppose the courts would rather you just tell the man to go ahead and get to it with his beating and then shoot him anyway instead of letting him see for sure you are indeed armed and telling him to get along possibly saving the both of you. im not saying that brandishing a gun is best for sure. but to me a dark alley+ a guy waiting+12:30 am+ threats + no witnesses= guess what! id have to say id have done the same if not pulled and pointed right then. all legalities and red tape aside whats to say he didnt have one tucked away waiting to put one in me? why take chances? at least thats how i feel about it. strong kudos to that buddy of yours glad all went well. glad no one was shot.

Willie Lowman
January 13, 2012, 09:31 PM
Look, I'm not saying your buddy did wrong BUT...

In the state of Ohio doing what he did is illegal. I am not in the mood to tear into the O.R.C. but it is made out (as clear as lawyer speak can be) that a beating by fists isn't mortal danger. Although I know a few folks that could easily kill a man with their hands should they decide to. If a weapon was shown (a bat, knife, cudgel, brass knuckles, etc) it would be a different story. Fear of rape is included in the justifications for use of deadly force (going for your concealed pistol).

That said, good for him.

BRE346
January 13, 2012, 09:31 PM
He wouldn't have had a chance to draw. Two steps backward would help a lot. Good thing it turned out the way you describe.

Were I in that fix, I don't know what I'd do. It was just too dangerous.

hangglider
January 13, 2012, 09:34 PM
Interesting case. At face value I'd think gabby is right--your friend hadn't yet been faced with the the intent and probability of deadly force or exercised the option of avoidance. Some places may treat one's vehicle as an extension of the home (somebody posted somewhere that Texas does, I think) in which case MAYBE the threat might be construed within the context of Castle doctrine thing. I don't know--but a good case example to analyze (politely).:)

LockedBreech
January 13, 2012, 09:42 PM
It was not my intention to start a legal debate. Good points are raised here, and it's very important to know the law in your state. In the relevant jurisdiction what he did was legal. I posted this thread simply to emphasize the importance of always being ready and helping teach your friends about firearms and the Second Amendment, if they are receptive.

hangglider
January 13, 2012, 09:54 PM
My feeling is that the 2nd amendment right is the most profound one that we citizens have--and carries with it tremendous responsibilities which I myself don't fully understand the extent of.

Buzzcook
January 13, 2012, 10:09 PM
Spiteful ex-girlfriend who now has a muscle head current boy friend.
Sounds like a reason to carry to me.

kraigwy
January 13, 2012, 11:23 PM
I don't think brandishing is a wise thing to do.........Just my two cents worth. It is illegal to do here in Oklahoma.

Did you notice the OPs location, He's in Wyoming, we don't have such silly laws.

There is a big difference between pulling your coat/shirt back and branishing.

LockedBreech
January 13, 2012, 11:51 PM
Kraig, this was actually at the Cheyenne Perkins if that illustrates things

kgpcr
January 13, 2012, 11:57 PM
Why did he not call 911? Why did he not go back in the store and lock the door and wait for the police? What would he have done if the guy would not have retreated? after he pulled his weapon one of several things were going to happen. One the guy retreats. two the guy keeps coming at him and he shoots him. Now he goes to jail as the guy does not have a weapon. three the guys keeps coming and kicks his ass. I think he played it all wrong

LockedBreech
January 14, 2012, 12:05 AM
Why did he not call 911? Why did he not go back in the store and lock the door and wait for the police? What would he have done if the guy would not have retreated? after he pulled his weapon one of several things were going to happen. One the guy retreats. two the guy keeps coming at him and he shoots him. Now he goes to jail as the guy does not have a weapon. three the guys keeps coming and kicks his ass. I think he played it all wrong

Please re-read my post and thread, don't skim it.

1.) He never pulled his weapon. At all. Did not break the holster. Anything that might have happened if pure speculation. Even seeing the butt made him hightail it, so I'm guessing a draw would have done the same.
2.) He was in the middle of the parking lot after locking up the store. This I might not have made clear enough.
3.) Your response when a person is two feet from you physically threatening you is to go for phone and not firearm? I doubt he'd have had time to unlock the phone if they guy had attacked.
4.) As for going into the store, same issue as the phone. You think he could have gotten to the door and unlocked it without getting overtaken by the bigger, faster, stronger guy behind him?
5.) Given too close to call 911, too far to get back in the store, how would you have handled it?

blkft1
January 14, 2012, 12:36 AM
1.On occassion but not very often.
2.Yes
3.Murphy's Law can a affect any gun.
4.Depends on the friend.


If it was me I would have NOT displayed any part of my gun and immediately backed/retreated away saying NOTHING in a attempt to avoid contact the very second the aggressive, agitated and verbally abusive Mr New-Boyfriend started his tirade. I wouldnt get anywhere near ten feet of him. In the mean time would have called the police on my cell or re-entered and lock myself in the store then called the police and have them deal with him and the Ex if possible.I'd describe in a cool/calm demeanor exactly what I did above emphasizing on my "non escalating the issue" tactic to the police when they arrive.The next day I'd file a complaint of the above sitzu to have record with the police in case there is anymore contact FROM the Ex and NBF whether by e-mail,text,cell or in person.

blkft1
January 14, 2012, 12:59 AM
"It was not my intention to start a legal debate. Good points are raised here, and it's very important to know the law in your state. In the relevant jurisdiction what he did was legal. I posted this thread simply to emphasize the importance of always being ready and helping teach your friends about firearms and the Second Amendment, if they are receptive."

I'll re-edit my response to this:
In this part of the forum we all play "Armchair Warrior" or "would've, could've, should've". Yes,,we should all be ready 100% with a reliable weapon all of the time,,,but on occassion I'm guilty of being lazy on the former but it's very rare. If I had the exact same experience that your friend had and reacted the same exact way I still would notify the police.And I woud explain in detail exactly what I did and why and then go home and review the sitzu with myself and a trustworthy good friend.Which he did.

we all have our opinions good or bad.

MLeake
January 14, 2012, 01:19 AM
blkft1, I understand a general advocacy of avoidance. OTOH, I think your opinion that it would be feasible to dial a phone, or turn, cross a parking lot, and unlock a door in such a scenario are unrealistic.

TheNocturnus
January 14, 2012, 02:30 AM
Don't mind these guys, most of them have probably never been in a scenario like that. I've faced the business end of a gun 3 times from robbers, that's why I now carry.

Your friend did the right thing. If he honestly felt that he was at risk of imminent harm, he could have drawn and shot the guy. I would have done the same thing as him, maybe more.

Mike38
January 14, 2012, 02:46 AM
…..a beating by fists isn't mortal danger.

Well, I’m not so sure about that. A guy I was an acquaintance with spent quite a few years in prison for man slaughter. He hit a guy with his fist outside of a bar. One punch to the face. The other guy fell backwards, hit his head on a street curb, cracking open his skull. He bled to death before an ambulance could arrive. So a fist can lead to mortal danger.

I’m not about to take a beating by fists if it can be prevented. If showing a weapon will stop said beating, I’m willing to take my chances against the State’s Attorney.

BTW, the guy in the original post didn’t brandish a weapon. To brandish means to take out and wave around or point. Simply showing a weapon is lesser.

kinggabby
January 14, 2012, 02:53 AM
BTW, the guy in the original post didn’t brandish a weapon. To brandish means to take out and wave around or point. Simply showing a weapon is lesser. Sorry I got that mixed up.

hangglider
January 14, 2012, 03:16 AM
Good points. If the guy is known to have military training, bigger than the friend and behaving in a physically-threatening manner, then it's seems reasonable for an average person to expect possible grave injury or even death, though I still think there's a possible missing component of seeking to avoid if that was reasonably possible. My guess is that the big tough behaving in a threatening manner "is equivalent" to revealing possession of a firearm--so it's a "draw" in terms of using reasonable threat to counter what a reasonable person would perceive as a potential lethal threat.

cloud8a
January 14, 2012, 03:19 AM
In the state of Ohio doing what he did is illegal. I am not in the mood to tear into the O.R.C. but it is made out (as clear as lawyer speak can be) that a beating by fists isn't mortal danger.

I think it has been established on easily more than a thousand occasions that fists can be lethal. As far as the law goes in each individual state concerning self defense, that is the sole responsibility of the gun carrier to know like the back of his hand. That being said, there could be a distinction made between brandishing a firearm that is still holstered and placing your hand on a holstered firearm. The former could be saying "Look, I have a gun on my hip", the latter being a ready position not necessarily intending the target to understand I am armed.
In my opinion, letting a threat know you are armed and to leave you alone under the umbrella of your known state laws that allow that, is the responsible thing to do. I am talking ideal circumstances here.
When I am unsure I look to LEO policy. I think it is a rare occurrence that even an undercover LEO has thrown his shirt open to show a threatening target he has a gun. The gun is either out and on the target or holstered and concealed.
The best bet is to question an LEO thoroughly about your local gun laws and know your state gun laws thoroughly, and knowing is half the battle :)

icedog88
January 14, 2012, 06:41 AM
Here in CT, both parties could be charged with breach of peace. I don't think showing a holstered gun quite meets the definition of brandishing but some over zealous DA might try it. The catch all here is breach of peace. You can open carry here or conceal, but if someone notices it, you can be charged under a breach. I do agree that one must always be prepared, but with extreme caution as the effects of encounters such as this can go either or any way.

dyl
January 14, 2012, 07:29 AM
Just in the nick of time. I'm glad your friend showed restraint.

I cannot comment on the legality (not qualified, I'm no law scholar!). First I'll say that worked out pretty well so I don't think anyone is unhappy with the result. My stance is that in general, concealing as long as you can gives you an upper hand. I suppose I'm thinking about if the assailant is irrational (relatively speaking) as in he or she does not value their own safety in order to be deterred. Devil's advocate: What was there keeping that boyfriend from carrying his own pistol? And seeing how verbally abusive he was I'd say his anger could potentially skew his thinking into "this man wants a gunfight? Look he started it!" as he'd been itching for some kind of confrontation. Remember - it worked out fine so no worries this time.

The thing with the bare fists: I once read a definition of "grievous bodily injury" to include not only immediate death but anything that could reasonably break bones - and the skull is just a bone too. Also there is no way to know how far an attacker may choose to go. There is no written contract saying he will stop the beating/choking after the defender falls. So since empty handed doesn't equate to non-lethal, my speculation is that it would help determine when to draw if we're given a clue about his/her intent. As in: I'm backpedalling but he's advancing.

So statistically (if we believe them) your friend shouldn't have too many more confrontations left in his lifetime right? - but he might unless you as his friend help keep him clear of the crazy women who lure in crazy men :D just half kidding.

MLeake
January 14, 2012, 09:48 AM
In a lot of jurisdictions, bare fists do not make the standard for deadly force, unless a strong argument can be made for disparity of force. EG, healthy vs disabled, adult vs child, adult vs elderly, multiple assailants, etc.

Those jurisdictions are often the ones that consider the display of a weapon to be unjustified unless the actual use of deadly force would have been warranted.

It appears WY does not fall into that category.

For the "only draw if you are going to shoot" crowd, bear in mind that over 90% of SD uses of handguns result in no shots fired - the BG ceases hostilities upon seeing the weapon. If the BG ceases to be a threat, justification for deadly force ceases, too, so be careful about getting into the "If I draw I must shoot" trap.

trex1310
January 14, 2012, 11:08 AM
Lawscholar: Sounds like to me that your friend did good. The
incident was resolved and nobody got hurt. As you know you
are going to have any number of armchair lawyers that will
chime in with their supreme Internet opinions. Btw the Stoeger
is a jewel in hiding. It's a lot of gun for a reasonable price. I
have the 8045F .45acp.

LockedBreech
January 14, 2012, 11:48 AM
Lawscholar: Sounds like to me that your friend did good. The
incident was resolved and nobody got hurt. As you know you
are going to have any number of armchair lawyers that will
chime in with their supreme Internet opinions. Btw the Stoeger
is a jewel in hiding. It's a lot of gun for a reasonable price. I
have the 8045F .45acp.

I was very happy when the Cougar came in. It's a gorgeous little gun, and I think feels better made than almost anything in the price point.

FrederickDav
January 15, 2012, 07:31 PM
Many years ago a brother of a friend [lived in Ala.] overheard someone badmouthing his wife. Being the hothead/tough guy, he approached the loudmouth with clenched fists. The loundmouth pulled a gun and killed the tough guy. It was ruled justified. The loudmouth feared for his life!
In Michigan, one has to have a reasonable fear of great bodily harm, death or rape to justifiy shooting. To say fists aren't leathal weapons is , in my opinion, wrong. In nine years of karate I've met people who could probably kill someone faster with their hands than with a firearm.
Even though I'm guilty of not carring all the time, I do believe if you have it you should carry it. It is impossible to tell when the gun will be needed or not.
There I've said my piece wether it makes a contribution to the conversation or not is up to others to decide.

arch308
January 15, 2012, 07:49 PM
I read this here once..." when seconds count the police are minutes away ". I'm not sure what he did was "legal" but it worked and no one was hurt. Personally I wouldn't have let him get that close to begin with.

MLeake
January 15, 2012, 08:02 PM
FrederickDav, in fifteen years of aikido and jujutsu I have yet to meet somebody who could reliably kill faster with bare hands than a decent shooter could kill with a firearm, but I know a lot of people who could probably have a good chance at a 20-30 second empty handed kill. I am one of those...

But the point is not whether bare hands can kill. The point is whether courts will accept that in a self-defense case.

In many places, one has to be obviously and severely outclassed. To add to that, odds are you could not argue fear of the other guy's martial prowess unless it could be proven that you knew the guy was a dangerous MA type before the attack.

Where you are can make a lot of difference, with regard to DA charging tendencies and existing case law.

wyohusker
January 16, 2012, 12:09 AM
Thanks for posting... I love Wyoming. I have been carrying for a couple of years off and on... Long story short I had to pull my CCW last summer... I carry as much as I can now. The Police told me I was very justified in my actions. I am glad that your friend is OK and I thank what he did was the correct thing to do. There was no harm in what he did... everyone went home to their own beds that night. If you ask me your friend is lucky to have you as a friend.

TexasJustice7
January 16, 2012, 03:07 AM
Mike38: I’m not about to take a beating by fists if it can be prevented. If showing a weapon will stop said beating, I’m willing to take my chances against the State’s Attorney.

In Texas the law is intentional unconcealment but being threatened and showing the gun would not have been a problem. I probably would have had my hand on the butt of my S&W 642-1 in a pocket holster and told him to stop. If he did not comply I would have drawn and fired, as I am too old to
take whoopin. But at his age he might could have outrun the guy. I couldn't so the only way I am taking a whoopin will be after the gunfight is over. :(

kinggabby
January 16, 2012, 03:15 AM
Maybe I should have been clearer. The aggressor was at arms length, verbally threatening loudly with balled fists, lying in wait after midnight. My buddy showed the butt of a pistol with the safety on without drawing. I was just rereading this and it brought to me a question. IS it really a good idea to show any part of a gun if they are within arms reach? I mean IF the guy is bigger and stronger if the guy was really there to cause harm I think he could have done it before he got the gun out of his holster. Not trying to start anything or to tick you off . But I thought it was a valid question,

HALL,AUSTIN
January 16, 2012, 03:38 AM
I believe your friend did the right thing, he didnt lose control of his temper or his firearm and he also did not get a one way trip to the greybar motel for shooting the musclehead new guy.

Lee Lapin
January 16, 2012, 11:01 AM
Do your friend another favor, and introduce him to Southnarc ( http://shivworks.com/ , and search the net for more). Two feet is physically too close to begin introducing a gun into the equation, and he needs to know how to handle that sort of close-up/contact situation better now that he's carrying. I haven't seen an integrated curriculum anywhere that's better than Southnarc's for this.

Meanwhile, the second line in my .sig would seem to apply...

BlueTrain
January 16, 2012, 11:38 AM
Why does it always have to be either/or? I realize there is great danger outside your door and sometimes, even inside, yet one's own estimation of personal risk is no one else's business. Clearly one is not in the same risk everywhere, all the time, unless you're one of those who carry in church. If so, then I've nothing else to add.

MLeake
January 16, 2012, 11:40 AM
Funny you mention that, BT, but after a string of shootings in midwestern churches, several of the ones in this area have designated marksmen in the congregation...

kinggabby
January 16, 2012, 11:43 AM
I have no problem with church carry. I did on Christmas.

trex1310
January 16, 2012, 03:48 PM
Many years ago a brother of a friend [lived in Ala.] overheard someone badmouthing his wife. Being the hothead/tough guy, he approached the loudmouth with clenched fists. The loundmouth pulled a gun and killed the tough guy. It was ruled justified. The loudmouth feared for his life!
In Michigan, one has to have a reasonable fear of great bodily harm, death or rape to justifiy shooting. To say fists aren't leathal weapons is , in my opinion, wrong. In nine years of karate I've met people who could probably kill someone faster with their hands than with a firearm.
Even though I'm guilty of not carring all the time, I do believe if you have it you should carry it. It is impossible to tell when the gun will be needed or not.
There I've said my piece wether it makes a contribution to the conversation or not is up to others to decide.

I am in no way taking sides one way or another. One thing I would like
to point out is that a large portion of Alabama counties are still rural
for the most part and everybody knows or is related to everybody else.

So, it isn't out of the realm of imagination that this guy wasn't
prosecuted. Also, if you're on your own property and fear for your life
you can legally use deadly force.

Sleuth
January 16, 2012, 06:47 PM
You asked for some alternative actions, here are some for your consideration, worth exactly what you paid for them:

Back up, loudly yelling "Stop, leave me alone! Go Away!" You would be suprised how many people may be about even at 12:30 AM.
(I have done this twice now, - worked both times.)

or,

Agree with the jerk while backing up - I really don't care if someone, or lots of someones, think I am a coward, if I can avoid shooting someone. Plus, I have seen that agreeing with someone who is trying to start a confrontation just thows them completly off - they don't know what else to say.

or.

Just turn and run as fast as you can. If he chases you, this builds a case for "fear of my life".

Thinking and acting outside of the box can create time and space for other options to appear.

I once had a well know actor ask my opinion of what to do if a guy in a bar challenged him (he travels with a bodyguard). My question to him was:
"How important is it to you that some drunk in a bar in Tucson claims he ran you out? There are LOTS of other bars."

(This is a farly common occurance for him, as he has played several "tough guy" roles. He actually was an Army Ranger between Korea & Viet Nam, but the issue is the lawsuit and noteriety that would follow a "barroom brawl."

armoredman
January 16, 2012, 07:56 PM
That depends, Sleuth, is it the Bashful Bandit or Tens?:eek::D

My movie line generator went into motion when the OP said the would be assailant began calling him cowardly and a weakling...

"Yeah, you're right, I am a weak coward. I'm also not going to get my butt kicked tonight."

Thankfully I live in Arizona, where we have a law called Defensive Display, which specifically states what he did, even up to drawing to a low ready, is 100% legal when threatened with physical force. With the legal disparity of force of size and training, using only the facts as given, it wouldn't be too hard to upgrade the threat to Deadly Physical Force.

Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

Sounds like your man played it well.

Old Wanderer
January 17, 2012, 12:12 AM
I for one think your friend did the right thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but Wyoming now allows CC however it has for a long time been legal to Open Carry.

All your friend did in essence was to switch from CC to OC. Both absolutely legal.

As you state, you never know when you might need it. I still clearly remember my stupidly when I flew down to So Cal to date some sweet young thing I met in Reno. She had told me about her possessive X-boyfriend and how afraid of him she was. I had one of those rare CA CWP, but had left my 45 at my friends house on the beach, and drove over to taker to dinner, few drinks and them probably back to his place. As soon as I pulled up in front, she came out the front door and told me she couldn't go out with me. I saw somebody peak around the corner of the building and asked her if it was her X...told her I would give him an attitude adjustment and started walking over to the home, BANG, and a shot goes by me...I took off at a run straight at him...he ran down a back alley. It took about 30 yards for the brain to engage and realize this was stupid. Me with a bad attitude and him with a gun that he had already fired at me.

I was furious, drove back to the beach grabbed my gun, a couple extra mags, and the people in the living room stopped me long enough to hear what happened, then started laughing at me, thinking he would wait for it to be a fair fight...Never went back to date the girl either, but carried a lot more.