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View Full Version : So the bandit has the drop on you, so what


kraigwy
January 5, 2012, 01:39 PM
After reading several topics on bandit with gun on you, you're armed what would you do.

I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

But it requires you to practice drawing and firing. But here is a way to tell.

Take a buddy to the range. Both of you have separate targets, or I guess you can do it with one target.

Have your buddy aim his pistol at his target. Tell him when he sees you start to draw to fire. See who gets a round off first. You'd be surprised. It helps if you get him distracted, for example, get your wallet out and drop it. Chances are he'll look down.

I've taught this in LE, it works, if you get the guy talking, you'll beat him every time. You can't talk and draw at the same time.

Before you chime in and tell me I'm full of it, go to the range and try it. If you can draw your pistol/revolver, you have the edge.

If you ever read Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER, you'll know he stresses practicing drawing and firing one shot. Not that he's against multiple shots, but that its the first shot that counts.

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this post, I'll only pay attention to those who've had tried it.

After reading about the Cousin who got carjacked, or maybe another subject I want out in my back yard, no warm up, I drew my pocket revolver out of my pocket and hit the center of a silhouette target in .43 seconds. Can't remember if it was 3 or 7 yards, but thats not the point. It was in the danger zone. I will admit I started with my hand on the gun, but I walk around most of the time with my hands in my pocket anyway.

I don't think the bandit can react that fast.

C0untZer0
January 5, 2012, 01:50 PM
I don't know...

I think if I "had the drop" on someone and they drew, I'd shoot them twice before they could bring their firearm to bear.

Chicago police officer was killed over the holidays, it's not totally clear if BGs just opened fire on him and he was before and while attempting to draw or if he began to draw and then was shot multiple times...

Of course being a police officer doesn't garauntee that you get good training either. Chicago notoriously underfunds their police in pay, equipment and training, and I'm not aware of any training of Chicago police where they train to basically outdraw someone. But still - he was a police officer and he was gun downed in a situation that sounds similar to what you are describing.

I can't say I've tried this so you can pay me no mind, but it's just my opinion.

AK103K
January 5, 2012, 01:51 PM
I think to take it one step further, force on force with airsoft guns will give you a better picture of whats more likely to happen, and actually let you practice it. You are actually trying to shoot each other, the only difference is, the guns arent "live", but you still get a ''result" to reinforce things.

tac-safe
January 5, 2012, 01:54 PM
I totally agree with what your saying...the faster you can unholster and pull the trigger the better. True, that first round counts, and chances are "Bandit" isn't traning like you. It is a perishable skill though...don't expect to lock this down and stash it in the tool box for later use. To add to this technique, try shooting from the hip. This will save you time and get rounds down range. Take it slow the first few times, it might seem uncomfortable. "Cheater's Win The Gun Battle"!

Be Safe!

BGutzman
January 5, 2012, 01:59 PM
I think part of the equation is that if the person has the gun drawn on you and already decided to not shoot or at least delay shooting it takes a moment for them to comprehend your drawing a concealed weapon...

The attacker felt they had superiority and the shock of you moving to action when they feel clearly superior takes the advantage from them to a degree...

Also you have to take in account they may have drawn on you but at that moment they have to decide in a instant if they have what it takes to pull that trigger, yet one more slight delay..

MLeake
January 5, 2012, 02:01 PM
Depending on distance, if I decided fighting was still the best course of action, I would physically attack with my weak hand, while simultaneously getting off the X and drawing.

That option would not be available if I were seat belted in a vehicle...

Mike38
January 5, 2012, 02:10 PM
Kraigwy, funny you should bring this up. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a clip on TV, I believe the show was American Handgunner but not sure. They tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done. They even tried side stepping while drawing. The guy with the gun in-hand won. I believe the guy drawing and shooting is the National Three Gun Champion, so he’s no dummy when it comes to firearms.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 5, 2012, 02:14 PM
I've seen it done in FOF classes. Given a distribution of speeds, reaction times, and all the human performance issues - it is mistaken to say:

1. You can definitely do it.
2. It can't be done.

There are techniques to enhance your chances.

Try it in FOF class.

kraigwy
January 5, 2012, 02:22 PM
Maybe some of the older guys remember when the book, The Onion Field came out there was a big change in LE training stressing NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

We started a extensive training session where as we trained a great deal on drawing against someone who has the drop on you, I admit I was surprised but I received an education.

You also have the eliment of supprise, just look at the response I'm getting, no one expects one to draw their weapon when someone has the drop on them.

The question is, Try it, practice it, the worst thing that happens is you waste a few rounds shooting at a paper target.

Like anything else, the results you get is dependent on the amount of effort and practice you do.

BlueTrain
January 5, 2012, 02:28 PM
Maybe it can be done but I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it, even with a month of practice. The biggest problem is concealment, which I am assuming here, so doing a fast draw from a pocket holster is impossible and from real concealment is next to impossible--for me. I have tried it, though not from a pocket holster (none of my guns will fit in a pocket). I am also assuming that the other man does not know I have a gun--I'm not assuming which one is the bad guy, however.

No assumption was stated, I think, in the original post about which way we are facing when we are in this hypothetical situation.

There is another factor, too. The other man has probably made up his mind that shooting me is not a problem and I don't think that way. He has the edge on that point. You might call that the killer instinct.

AK103K
January 5, 2012, 02:34 PM
Given a distribution of speeds, reaction times, and all the human performance issues - it is mistaken to say:

1. You can definitely do it.
2. It can't be done.
This pretty much sums it up.

Its all going to depend on whats going on at the moment, and whos lucky.

RedBowTies88
January 5, 2012, 02:35 PM
"Kraigwy, funny you should bring this up. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a clip on TV, I believe the show was American Handgunner but not sure. They tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done. They even tried side stepping while drawing. The guy with the gun in-hand won. I believe the guy drawing and shooting is the National Three Gun Champion, so he’s no dummy when it comes to firearms."


Tell that to bob munden :cool:


But yea for the rest of us... I must agree

booker_t
January 5, 2012, 02:46 PM
Snubnose in the jacket pocket... you don't even have to draw :) Good luck beating the time it takes for the primer to initiate!

..a clip on TV..tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done..The guy with the gun in-hand won.

The fallacy of a test like that is the aggressor knows that at some point, the would-be victim is going to draw. They are alert and waiting for it, and they aren't concerned with the adreneline of a stick-up, getting cash/jewelery/other valuables, not being seen, and making a get-away.

Dwight55
January 5, 2012, 03:03 PM
This is the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place" scenario: do you not move, hoping the bad guy will disappear, . . . or will you be shot dead with your weapon in it's holster?

From observation of other people, . . . plus knowing my own abilities, . . . I will probably be more inclined to take my chances at getting him before he can get me. I have seen very, very few people who can truly shoot a hand gun, . . . and none of them were of the bg variety.

The key, IMHO, is the timing of the act: during one of his distracted moments, . . . while he is threatening someone else, . . . ya just gotta look for the opening that gives a better percentage.

I always remember the old Marine at the Subway, . . . robbed him and herded them all toward the men's room, . . . probably to do em all away. Bg came around the door to meet a .45 slug in his face, . . . lost interest real quick. The old Marine waited his chance, . . . took it, . . . won the fight and the war.

May God bless,
Dwight

45_auto
January 5, 2012, 03:11 PM
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

A little demonstration we run the first week of every training class demonstrates how wrong you are. It's easy to duplicate if you want to verify it.

I have an officer point his weapon downrange with his finger on the trigger (weapon cocked if it's DA/SA). Hold a shot timer up next to his ear. All he has to do is shoot when he hears the beep. No target, nothing to hit, just shoot at the berm.

Fastest reaction time I've ever seen is .12 of a second. Slowest is just over 1/4 second. Never seen anyone over .30, most people are between .20 and .25.

So even a slow robber will have a reaction time around 1/3 of a second. If you can draw your concealed weapon and get off a shot in less than .30 of a second, you need to be putting Bob Munden out of business doing demos.

You'll also find that most people can easily do splits (time between shots) of .15 to .20 seconds.

That means that 1/3 of a second after you start to draw, your opponent will put his first shot into your chest, and .20 seconds later, his second shot will be in your chest.

Not to hard to demonstrate. Most smart phones can download a shot timer app. Do a few draw strokes and shots from concealment and see what your best time is. Typical times for a draw and first shot from a hip holster (no retention features, not concealed) are just over a second.

You may find the results of the test below interesting. A suspect already holding a gun in his hand and bringing it up is about equal to the reaction time of the cop already pointing a gun at him. No need to even try the experiment with the suspect's gun in the holster, it wouldn't be close.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/06/13/reaction-time-police-shooting-study/

BGutzman
January 5, 2012, 03:13 PM
in a test the Aggressor already knows the defender will draw... in real life this isnt so.... the test is not entirely valid...

Glenn E. Meyer
January 5, 2012, 03:27 PM
When I've seen it done in FOF, the draw was initiated not in a standing face off when the guy with gun was watching you and ready. It was when the guy with the gun was spouting off commands. His verbalization drew his attention and he was shot.

On the other hand, we did an exercise where we stood at arms reach and watched the opponent for a draw. Usually we could block the draw and tussle for the gun (red guns).

Or, I held the gun on the teacher - who told the class to watch this. He was obviously going to get off the X. So I 'shot' him. Did this before. Later, he ambushed me in while moving through a house. Payback!

So, it depends on the situation. The general principle unless you are the Flash is to see if attention of the gun holder is distracted by something or their own behavior.

booker_t
January 5, 2012, 03:39 PM
I have an officer point his weapon downrange with his finger on the trigger..Fastest reaction time I've ever seen is .12 of a second.

I'd love to see the times put up by an NHL hockey goalie, Top Fuel/Formula 1 driver, professional welterweight boxer, or a legit fighter pilot.

Alaska444
January 5, 2012, 03:43 PM
My CCW instructer in Idaho pocket carries a .357 scandium lightweight. His approach is to act like a wimp saying don't shoot, don't shoot, let me get my wallet and then bring the snubbie up into the belly and shoot. He is a professional with combat experience and a private security/protection expert. That was his approach.

For me, I don't think I would attempt to draw while drawn upon unless there is evidence that they are taking you somewhere to do you in. Open public typical mugging, give the wallet, be a good witness. Too many stories in real life of off duty cops deploying their weapon in crowded areas and a bystander is shot and killed, not necessarily by the cop, but there is likely in many situations more people at risk than you alone.

If I was going to draw, I would throw my wallet in a clumsy manner not making it look deliberate as a distraction. If the creep already has a gun in your face, you may have already missed your chance of self protection.

BlackFeather
January 5, 2012, 04:00 PM
Well, I know it's not gun related, but if their gun or wrist is within my reach I can grab and press it across them while drawing a knife and "sticking it in" quite fast. I've never had the luxury of a timer but we used an airsoft gun and I haven't been shot yet. At a further distance, I know I'm screwed, please no flaming.

I have also done this pistol versus pistol from outside the waistband behind a jacket. Got shot every time. I'd also like to point out it was a fake "reaching for the wallet" situation. Even when the person didn't know what I was going to do, I was shot. There was no adrenaline/increased heart rate involved, may be my fault there.

I feel numbers can be irrelevant in these situations, I don't care how fast I move as long as it's fast enough to accomplish what I need. I do understand for training purposes it's a great tool, just keep in mind that those numbers aren't the same every time.

45_auto
January 5, 2012, 04:01 PM
I'd love to see the times put up by an NHL hockey goalie, Top Fuel/Formula 1 driver, professional welterweight boxer, or a legit fighter pilot.

I don't know any, but if you do, have them try this reaction time website:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

Their results seem to agree with mine, the very fastest may approach .10 of a second. The test results are here:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

UtopiaTexasG19
January 5, 2012, 04:13 PM
Someone has to be honest about their abilities even with a lot of practice. In my case I'd have let the BG smoke a cigarette while I drew. My reaction time would not be very good against someone younger. For me heightened awareness is my best defense. To be truthful, once "most" folks had a gun drawn on me I'd be in a really bad spot.

brickeyee
January 5, 2012, 04:21 PM
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

Maybe in fantasy land.

An already nervous criminal with a finger on the trigger has you beat.

You are not going to make any large movements before that finger can move.

Many years ago I used to help demonstrate for police training.

The students dressed in riot gear for protection, and then tried to get the drop on me pointing a gun with wax bullets and only primers at them (simunition was way in the future).

It took very few attempts for them to quickly learn it was not going to work (and I was pretty far from any type of fast guy then).

It did take more with a supposedly 'trained' fighter.
He was second after I popped his classmate twice.

He never got a foot more than a few inches off the floor, or a hand more than halfway to me.

Keep in mind there is not a lot of a penalty for firing early.

Alaska444
January 5, 2012, 04:27 PM
Yikes, forget about outdrawing anyone on my part. My best was 223. Not going to state my average or worst, but I will leave the fast draw to the young kids. I guess I am just a slow old fart. Better to be aware before something happens than to try and outdraw someone with the a gun to my head.

Willie Lowman
January 5, 2012, 04:38 PM
I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this post, I'll only pay attention to those who've had tried it.

I'll get back to you on that...

Brian Pfleuger
January 5, 2012, 04:47 PM
I've never done the test described in the OP but I have done a test with air soft guns just as described, where one actor must draw and shoot before the other pulls the trigger.

Distractions and whatnot are one thing but if the BG is standing there alert and ready to react, most people are screwed. Capital SCREWED.

From my typical concealment, I can draw and point shoot in about 1.5 seconds. Maybe close to 1.0 on a really good day. I'm not a trained assassin but neither are 95% of CCWers.

Besides that, until I carry a phaser, there's a lot more to worry about than whether I can pull the trigger FIRST. FIRST better be "only" or I'm in trouble anyway.

JerryM
January 5, 2012, 04:51 PM
Bill Jordan and Jelly Bryce could draw and fire faster than the reaction time of most folks. I cannot.
It is one thing to do with a holster not concealed and another when the handgun is concealed. I personally am going to have to see it before I will believe that it can be done from a covered gun.

But suppose you could draw faster than the BG reaction time. Your shot may not stop him from shooting you.

Unless one firmly believes that the BG is going to shoot you anyway, I think it is very foolish to try to draw and beat him and not get shot. For what? A few or a hundred dollars???

Jerry

TeamSinglestack
January 5, 2012, 05:31 PM
I don't think the bandit can react that fast.

There's a big difference between "can" react and "will" react.

Average human reaction time is around .25ish, with some folks faster, some slower. You're not going to beat that from concealment against an individual willing to pull the trigger. Been there, done that with sims.

However, when it comes down to it, we probably won't have to, as fights are nothing more than a test of will. Lack of will on the criminals part can lead to hesitation, and I am of the opinion that most, but certainly not all, armed criminals want to get away with their crime without having a murder rap to deal with, so there will more than likely be some hesitation on their part. You see it all the time in crime videos.

Criminal lack of will that creates hesitation, combined with deception or distraction (such as you mention) and masking some of the draw stroke, can all buy you more time and enable you to get off a shot, but there's no guarantee. There never is.

IMO, since there is NO guarantee that you won't be shot and killed despite being compliant, you might as well fight as if your life depended on it, because it probably does.

Do what you think is best.

wayneinFL
January 5, 2012, 10:15 PM
It's pointless arguing over who's going to get a shot off first. Good guy's a 1/4 second faster, bad guy's a 1/4 second faster, who cares? It's not a phaser, the other guy's not going to just disappear into thin air. Unless one of you hits the CNS, (unlikely) there's no reason both of you can't still shoot. You can be half a second faster, drill him through the heart, and he can still kill you.

With cover, the right mindset, a distracted BG, luck, etc., your chances would increase. Someone who believes in managing risk would try to determine how that balances against the risk of compliance. Others would fight back on principle, refusing to let the crook have control of the situation. I can understand either point of view.

Catfishman
January 6, 2012, 12:21 AM
But suppose you could draw faster than the BG reaction time. Your shot may not stop him from shooting you.
I can't believe it took 27 posts for someone to mention this. We don't shoot death-rays.
If someone has a gun pointed at me I'm probably not going to draw.

briandg
January 6, 2012, 01:06 AM
this totally depends on the two people in the standoff. I'm a bad guy. I got a gun in your belly. I say don't move. suddenly you move. since I'm not some punk hood rat that borrowed his momma's pocket pistol, I'm former military and all that, I'm probably going to shoot and kill eddy noodlehead who never trained a moment, but read that he's faster than an armed hood.

If I go armed, some hood rat points a gun at me, tells me not to move, I see that his firearm isn't really aimed at me, hammer is down, he doesn't look as if he's ready to do the job, I'm going to wait for a good moment, then snap my gun out and put as many rounds in him as I can.

a punk is a punk is a punk. good guy or bad guy, the one who dies is almost certain to be the one who has no training, no matter who had the drop on who.

BillCA
January 6, 2012, 02:15 AM
The Force Science Institute in Minnesota has already run tests regarding this subject. The result was that it's not terribly hard to beat an officer's drawn gun.

They concluded that it was easily possible to draw and fire (from a tucked-in-the-waistband position) a handgun in about 0.34 seconds and as fast as 0.20 seconds, IIRC the stats. Typical reaction time for people is about 0.50-0.75 seconds.

Causes for the delay in response to the suspect's movements, they believe, include the need to confirm justification to fire in their decision making, disbelief that the subject would attempt to resist at gunpoint and, of course, deciding if they should fire at all.

I would never want to bet my life that my speed at drawing would be faster than someone's ability to react. But the comment that it's best to act when the aggressor is talking is sound advice since they have to shift gears mentally from speaking to processing the visual input.

This all gets back to interrupting someone's OODA loop. If you can introduce one or more unexpected variables into the situation it complicates the person's response time. For instance, dropping your wallet at the person's feet instead of handing it over presents a multiple decision for them - pick it up, leave it, make you do it or shoot you. While they're initially processing what to do (or initiating "the wrong choice") you act while they're distracted.

One Big Caveat:
Most of us have a natural inhibition against using deadly force. Many people are ingrained with the idea of "fair play" and/or "doing all the right things" and may have trouble suppressing those concepts in order to act swiftly and without hesitation.

But not so for someone who is a violent killer. Especially one who thinks he has nothing to lose by murdering you. He may lack any kind of social or legal inhibitions against killing or maiming people. In this case, his reaction time is likely to be much faster. His only decision tree might be kill you now or kill you later -- but your movement simplified the decision for him.

nate45
January 6, 2012, 02:42 AM
Thats one of the main points of the Mozambique Drill (two to the chest one to the head in +/- 1.5 seconds). I'm not saying even the best can pull it off without getting shot, I'm just saying...

Actually, unless you're very good and even if you are very good; it might not be smart to try and draw. Especially, if it was something like an armed robbery where they were just going to take the money and leave.

No one I've ever seen is as fast from their concealment holster as they are from a belt holster either. Use your range timers and see, half a second goes by fast. Now imagine a loaded gun is pointed at you and the slightest fumble you get shot. I don't like the odds.

Glenn Dee
January 6, 2012, 05:14 AM
I believe the average guy/gal can shoot an adversary already pointing a gun at them. Speed however is not the major factor in pulling it off.

MarkDozier
January 6, 2012, 06:03 AM
Verrrrrrrrrrry intresting.
While i value life i have always been told by my daddy if your in my sights you are not a person but a target to destroy.

Panfisher
January 6, 2012, 11:26 AM
If I believed that the bad guy was going to shoot me, yes I would try something. My CC is not set up for a fast draw, nor do I really want it to be. Playing for a slight distraction or a pointing of his gun away from me before I chose to draw would be good. The down side of "I can draw and shoot faster than he can shoot" to me, is if you are wrong you get shot, and possible even if you are right you get shot. I would be thinking more along the lines of getting a chance to knock him off balance and then move or draw, I have no intention of EVER matching reactions times in a fair fight. Fair gunfights suck!!

Daugherty16
January 6, 2012, 12:12 PM
We've all thought about this, but all the drills and testing can't replicate the actuality of an amped-up criminal doing a robbery and an armed victim having been caught pants down. So many variables and possible outcomes.

I regularly practice the wimpy, let me get my wallet routine, weak hand up and palm out in supplication, turned a little to my left to present a profile in lieu of a frontal; my gun rides at about 7:30 (i'm a lefty) and it really looks like i'm going for my wallet in my back pocket (at least in a mirror). For me it isn't about speed so much as setting up the illusion of meek compliance, so that when the gun comes out and fires from my hip, it's completely unexpected - ie., a the BG is distracted, sees my empty weak hand, and is expecting the wallet to come up in the other. Hopefully it delays his recognition of danger until after the first couple shots are already in him and i'm moving the other way fast, still firing.

I have no idea if it would work. I hope i never have to find out. But i'd sure feel stupid dying with my gun still in its holster.

And how much does the math change if your wife and/or kids are with you when you are accosted, multiplying the potential destruction of the BGs bullets?

output
January 6, 2012, 02:31 PM
I have seen it done in movies 100 times (at least) but that certainly does not mean that I would ever attempt to outdraw and shoot someone whom already has me at gun point. I suppose there is a place and a time for everything, but logic is not on your side.

MLeake
January 6, 2012, 02:39 PM
The answer is situationally dependent. We have to realize that odds are not really in our favor; that there are things we might do to improve the odds; and that the best bet might be to hand over a wallet.

That said, a few different scenarios leap to mind. I suspect many here have seen these videos.

1) Guys get mugged in entryway to apartment building; one of the victims tries to wrestle the gun away, takes several bullets in the abdomen, and I think he died later.

2) Guy tries to stop a shooter on a subway platform, but can't get traction in his cowboy boots from the looks of it. Slips, falls, gets shot.

OTOH...

3) Lawyer is attacked outside courthouse by disgruntled former client. Lawyer bobs, weaves, runs around tree. He gets hit several times, but not killed or crippled. Bystanders physically take shooter down.

On the non-video side, as I've mentioned before, I know a guy who has stopped people from shooting him on multiple occasions, but he acted when he saw them go for the draw.

From my perspective, if somebody flashes a gun at me, my response will very likely be different than if that person is already holding a gun on me. Unless, of course, I get a very bad vibe from him, in which case, if I think I'm going down anyway, I'm going down fighting.

federali
January 6, 2012, 05:58 PM
You can do much to greatly reduce the possibility of getting caught with your guard down through situational awareness. It's as simple as that, you must know who is around you at all times and assess those who could pose a threat. If you genuinely believe a specific individual could be a threat. Casually get your gun in your hand but keep it out of view. Should you be right, you have more than a fighting chance of winning.

Stevie-Ray
January 6, 2012, 06:53 PM
Lack of will on the criminals part can lead to hesitation, and I am of the opinion that most, but certainly not all, armed criminals want to get away with their crime without having a murder rap to deal with, so there will more than likely be some hesitation on their part.True, that's why if somebody holds me up that says, "Look, I'm sorry, but I gotta have your wallet," I'm likely figuring it's one of those guys that's been out of work for the last few years, and I'm probably giving it up without a fight. Not that what he's doing is right of course, but I seriously doubt he wants to shoot me. On the other hand if it's a punk with a Mr. T starter set, holding his gun sideways, I'm going to figure a total lack of conscience, and I'm definitely looking for the opportunity to draw and fire, rather than simply laying down and dying, which I figure is on his mind.

45_auto
January 6, 2012, 07:42 PM
They concluded that it was easily possible to draw and fire (from a tucked-in-the-waistband position) a handgun in about 0.34 seconds and as fast as 0.20 seconds

Wow, most people can't move their trigger finger on a mouse button that fast, much less get all those arm muscles moving to draw from concealment and fire.

What kind of times do you get on a reaction speed test?

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

The world record for fast draw is .207, and that's clearing a speed holster (not concealed) with your hand just above the gun and popping a blank.

These guys with a gun already in their hand took longer than your .34 from concealment:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/06/13/reaction-time-police-shooting-study/

pax
January 6, 2012, 09:40 PM
45 Auto,

Those are reaction times (moving from a signal), while the Force Science experiments dealt with action times (moving, not from a signal). Their research shows that if you are acting and the BG has to react to your movement, you get the benefit of the reactionary time delay even if/though the other person appears to hold all the cards.

Put more simply: he's holding you at gunpoint because he wants to force you to do something; he does not intend to shoot you right this moment. That means that if you act quickly and decisively, you can get ahead of his ability to react. That's especially true if he hasn't yet made the decision to shoot, but it's also true even if he has decided to shoot if you don't comply, because he has to process the fact that you're not complying while all you have to do is move.

Sometimes. (But don't bet your life on it unless your life is already on the table...)

pax

Onward Allusion
January 6, 2012, 10:06 PM
kraigwy
So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

Real world... Not open carrying; probably under a shirt; IWB; under a jacket; or in a pocket holster. If you're lucky, you might be carrying in a quick draw retention holster like a Fobus. Then you might have a chance and even then it is a slim chance.

We're not talking about who's faster on the draw. The BG already has his gun out and likely aimed at you. As I'd posted in another thread, you would have a better chance (if you are trained) at disarming the BG than drawing on him.

ltc444
January 6, 2012, 10:11 PM
Back in the early 70s there was a writer, I believe his name was Marshall. He was a retired NYPD Officer. I don't know his record but he was involved in numerous shoot outs.

His advice, backed up by personal experience, was do not attempt to draw unless they were trying to force you into the cooler. At that time there had been a number of robberys were the victums were placed in the "stores" cooler and executed.

His point was, unless you are in immediate fear for your life or your loved ones, donot attempt to draw.

If you are in fear, then distractions and the other deceptions are good points. My CCW instructors, walking to car thief confronts and demands keys, was drop your keys and then draw.

Lee McNelly
January 6, 2012, 10:17 PM
best is to put a mental image of him in your mind and wait for a chance of him leaving then turn the tables but but not in the back

BlueTrain
January 7, 2012, 07:25 AM
This is a good place to throw this out again. This was from a radio show around 1960 entitled "Yours truly, Johnny Dollar." Johnny Dollar was a freelance insurance investigator and was the man with the "action packed expense account."

The scene was when the bad guy was corner by Dollar and the local sheriff who outdrew the bad guy.
"Wow, I've never seen a draw that fast except on television."
"That's where I learned it."

motorhead0922
January 7, 2012, 09:12 AM
This data seems to make Kraig's point perfectly:
Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:119
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

From:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf

Double Naught Spy
January 7, 2012, 09:42 AM
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

kraigwy, funny that you mention such a test given that in a similar test, the Tueller Drill, is often run in such a manner and the person drawing and firing often loses against a person with a knife who has to run 21 feet.

I would disagree with you completely that a bad guy with his gun pointed at you and your gun holstered means that the advantage is in your court. In fact, what you describe definitely indicates that the advantage is not in your court. You describe waiting until an opportunity presents itself to respond, such as the bad guy getting distracted. It is at that point that you may gain an advantage, not before. If you had the advantage the whole time, then you would not need to be waiting for an opportunity to respond. You are not responding before the opportunity because the bad guy has the advantage.

What you are describing, however, is responding smartly. Basically, you are talking about complying and/or not fighting until which time there is an opportunity to respond that is more to your advantage.

This data seems to make Kraig's point perfectly:
The data might support the point, except nobody seems to be able to actually find the source for the data. Can you? As near as I can ascertain, it is completely fabricated. Gunfacts cites a study by the British Home Office for the data. The BHO sight has countless reports posted on it. They are all titled, dated, and many (most?) have authors. In other words, they can be searched for and found. Many of the reports deal specifically with crime and self defense. None that I can find have the actual data described. Strangely, you would think the folks at Gunfacts would provide a proper citation for the information. They do for many other subjects in Gunfacts, but not for this claim. You have to wonder why they don't provide a proper citation for the information and that the information provided doesn't seem to match any study from the BHO's website, unless the information isn't valid.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474084&highlight=gunfacts

Brian Pfleuger
January 7, 2012, 10:40 AM
The data might support the point, except nobody seems to be able to actually find the source for the data. Can you? As near as I can ascertain, it is completely fabricated.

Besides which, even if the data were true, it's impossible to parse the generic "survive violent assault" from the very specific "draw on someone who already has a gun pointed at you", unless someone can find the original raw data describing the incidents.

The main discussion in the thread so far (including my own previous post) seems to be of a slightly different bend than the OP. Whether or not we believe that it's possible, or even likely, to successfully draw without getting shot, the assertion that "the advantage is in your court" is not even supported by the OP, as you point out.

zxcvbob
January 7, 2012, 11:02 AM
I can't believe it took 27 posts for someone to mention this. We don't shoot death-rays.
If someone has a gun pointed at me I'm probably not going to draw.


The bad guy doesn't have a death-ray either. If he does shoot you, attack with all you've got. Consider yourself invincible for 10 seconds. You might lose, but make sure he loses worse.

kraigwy
January 7, 2012, 11:05 AM
We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.

pax
January 7, 2012, 11:15 AM
DNS,

The Tueller drill is a different thing, because the runner (with the simulated knife) is the one who is acting and the shooter the one who is reacting to the other person's movement.

The person who reacts is usually the person who loses, because action takes less time than reaction.

pax

Brian Pfleuger
January 7, 2012, 11:17 AM
Plenty of us have tried it with airsoft guns actually shooting each other, which is IMHO, a much better "test" of the actual scenario than trying to shoot downrange at paper targets. Two people facing each other, one drawn and aimed, one not, is the situation you're trying to prove. Why have them shooting downrange, at paper?

Distractions and the like are one thing. Someone pointing a gun at you and paying attention to you is quite another. I've done it, I've watched others do it, I've never seen the defender NOT get shot. Not one single time. Ever.

I'm sure it can happen. Anything can happen. But I'm waiting for a really good reason and as solid of a distraction as I can get.

It takes me 1.5 seconds to draw and shoot from a concealed condition. He has to REact to my ACT. How that differs from slapping a button when a light comes on, which seems to me just like pulling a trigger when someone moves fast, is beyond me.

Even if it were different, normal reactions are 1/4 second or less, what's going to happen that adds a full 1.25 seconds to his time? Even if he does take 1.5 seconds, what happens? We shoot each other at the same time. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

If we wanna talk distractions, effective methods for concealing a draw, that's one thing. Having the advantage in your court when your gun is holstered and his is not, is quite another.

brickeyee
January 7, 2012, 12:36 PM
We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.

I used to get to try it.

The POs in training lost every time.

The PO running the firearm training used to enjoy doing the demo after a few days of martial arts type training had occurred.

Some really believed they could beat a trigger finger on a gun already aimed at them.

Good thing it was wax and they hard riot gear on (and yes, i used to get shot to prove it was safe).

kraigwy
January 7, 2012, 12:41 PM
I said I wasn’t going to comment unless responding to someone who actually tried “drawing while covered” but we’ve seen to have lost track of what I’m saying.

We’ve all seen “gun fights” on TV, where Mat Dillon steps out in the street, stands there all quite and calm until the bandit draws then Marshal Dillon out draws him.

We all know, or should know, that isn’t the way it happens. When someone pulls a gun in a robbery or such, there is a lot of screaming and jumping around. One screaming, “Give me your wallet, don’t move” etc etc. The Victim is yelling “don’t shoot, don’t shoot” or whatever, you get the ideal.

The bandit expects the victim to comply, the victim expects the bandit to shoot. Either way, both are waiting for something to happen. No one is expecting the victim to draw.

Think about your time on the range. How many times have you shot while talking? I don’t mean start a sentence, stop a second to shoot, and then finish the shooting. I’m talking about talking and shooting.

If you’re talking, you’re not shooting, if your shooting, you’re not talking. Same with breathing, you always stop breathing while pulling the trigger, it’s a natural act. Something you don’t really have to train yourself to do.

You need to get the bandit to talk, (easy to do). The way I demonstrate this is to have the student point at the target, I tell him as soon as he sees me start to draw to fire. Then I ask him tell me what he’s going to do to make sure he understands what is going to happen. He starts to reply and I shoot, simple, works ever time even though he knows I have a gun and I’m going to draw and shoot. I get him every time.

Now as to air soft and paint ball guns ‘n such. I don’t use them simply because I never seen one that matches my 642 and will fit in my pocket. They just don’t match my method of carry.

As to, “drawing from concealed. Yap, I agree it’s slow. Concealed is concealed, for most it requires pulling up your shirt or jacket to get to the gun. Then you have to get the gun out without snagging.

Again, that’s not how I carry. I pocket carry. I’ve always been sloppy, walking around with my hands in my pocket. Even when I was in the army I was always in trouble for my “air force gloves”.

Don’t know if anyone remembers but a while back I posted a picture of a sniper school I was teaching. In the picture I was in uniform, standing behind a spotting scope with my hands in my pocket. There were several comments about not being a professional infantry officer, setting a bad example and such.

I always have, bad habit or not, I still do it, and that’s the pocket I carry my 642. I tried it last week when thinking about another topic. Using a shot timer it took me .43 seconds to get the shot off. Yeah I use one hand; if you’ve read many of my post you’ll know I’m a proponent of one hand pistol/revolver use.

If the bandit is talking it’s going to take him a lot longer the .43 seconds to realize I’m drawing, then to stop talking and fire.

Below is a picture of me with my granddaughter taken a couple years ago, notice my hand in my pocket, guess where my 642 is.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/kianna/websize/Kianna_and_Grandpa_1_.jpg

Onward Allusion
January 7, 2012, 02:04 PM
Kraig,

The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying. In this kind of situation it is enormously more viable to attempt a disarm (IF one is trained) than to attempt a draw from a concealed carrying position (regardless if one is trained).

The scenario you'd described has the BG waving his gun around making demands from a further distance. Under this situation, it would be easier to seek cover and draw or possibly even just draw (maybe). In either case, one has to use their heads for a moment.

I guess distance is the primary variable.

Brian Pfleuger
January 7, 2012, 02:20 PM
But I point out again, as I did in post 26, that it's not just a matter of "who shoots first", unless you're pocket carrying a phaser.

What if I can fire a shot in .43 seconds and it takes the BG 3/4 second? or 1 second.

It's not a "Ha, ha, cool man, you got me, I give." scenario. There's still a very, very high probability of your getting shot.

Plus, it's indisputable that MOST armed robberies end without people getting killed. If you choose to draw and shoot without some reasonable evidence that it's the best choice, you are turning this into an almost guaranteed shoot-out. Kind of like this scenario (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474324)

Maybe, MAYBE, you get lucky and get off an instantly incapacitating shot. More likely, you don't. That means he's shooting back, that means you are likely to get shot when you otherwise wouldn't have been.

"Everybody in the cooler and get on your knees!" is one thing.

"Yo! Give me da money an nobody gets hurt!" is quite another.

kraigwy
January 7, 2012, 02:24 PM
The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying.

That Sir, is true. We've trained extensively on disarming a bandit at arm's lenght, but that's a different topic.

Not sure if I'm a good enogh with the written word to describe those tactics, maybe I'll find a nerdy kid to show me how to make videos and I can address the topic of "bad breath distance".

BlackFeather
January 7, 2012, 02:27 PM
a nerdy kid

I find this offensive. :o :p

Alaska444
January 7, 2012, 02:30 PM
IN close quarters, if you have the ability to block his gun with your week hand and draw with your strong hand at the same time and know that you can do this maneuver, then that is an option if the creep is that close. If you don't have the type of close quarters combat experience, then consider another option such as finding cover and drawing and returning fire.

I pocket carry like Kragwy, so it is always available and the creep could believe I am reaching for my wallet. That is what I would tell him.

motorhead0922
January 7, 2012, 07:01 PM
We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.
I'd love to try it, but all public ranges I know of have the lanes separated to keep brass under control. You can't see the person next to you.

Any other suggestions?

nate45
January 7, 2012, 09:02 PM
We’ve all seen “gun fights” on TV, where Mat Dillon steps out in the street, stands there all quite and calm until the bandit draws then Marshal Dillon out draws him

Your making some good points Kraig, don't mean to veer your thread off course and the following is not exactly what you are speaking of. Others though have mentioned speed and reaction times though.

Arvo Ojala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvo_Ojala) was the man who faced James Arness down in the opening of Gunsmoke every week.

Ojala was "the genuine article" to those he tutored. His speed was clocked and verified a number of times. He could draw, fire, and hit the target! in one-sixth of a second, faster than the eye can blink.

For further proof, Arvo would drop a silver dollar with his gun hand (right) from belt height, then draw and hit the coin before it could fall four inches. This was using "live", or full-power ammunition, not the wax bullets and quarter-loads used today in so-called "fast draw" competitions. In another exhibition, his opponent (using blanks) would face him with his pistol out of the holster and cocked, then nod as he simultaneously fired his revolver, while Arvo would draw and fire before the opponent could get a shot off. He never lost.

When I was a younger man I could do the Bill Jordan trick of having someone hold their hands a foot apart at waist level and when they got ready clap them together. When they did, their hands would have my Colt Trooper Mk III between them.

All this goes to prove that the average reaction time of .5 seconds is slower than the average self initiation time of .25 seconds.

I believe its possible to draw a concealed handgun and fire before someone holding a gun in their hand fires. I've practiced a, for lack of a better term, magazine dump, drill for many, many years. Its purpose is for just such a scenario.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii296/nate45auto/SigSTX5.jpg
The above is the product of one of those practice drills. Eight shots in 2.08 seconds, with a .53 reaction time and .22 average split. Thats not really that remarkable, till you consider the fact that it was with 230 grain +P ammo and all eight shots hit the torso A-zone of an ISPC target five yards away.

Firing seven or eight shots into the torso still doesn't guarantee a CNS(spinal column) hit, but it increases the odds.

Now the BIG question is would all that, still prevent someone from firing back and hitting me? ...and the answer is who knows. There is no way to predict the outcome. The only thing I know for certain is if I get hurt, I might not be the only one.

I still don't like the odds and hope I don't get in that situation.

Powderman
January 8, 2012, 05:10 AM
It just can’t be done.

Trust me, it can.

However, I think that there is a point to be made here that is being missed.

If you find yourself in the position where someone has the drop on you, and is threatening you with a drawn firearm, you are already in mortal danger. The person has means, motive and opportunity. Here is where the will to live; to win comes out. Here is the home and birthplace of what is called the warrior mindset.

So, what do you do? Just give your money up, and hope for the best? You've seen the robber's face. Will they let you walk away, and hope not to get caught?

They are issuing commands. Do you follow them meekly? Do you turn around? Go to your knees? Wait for the execution that may be coming?

This is what you MUST remember...

1. If you carry a gun, you must PRACTICE. This means that you put on and adjust your carry rig, wherever you're going to carry it. Then, you clear your weapon, REMOVE ALL LIVE AMMO FROM THE ROOM and practice the draw. Concentrate on SMOOTH, not speed. Speed will come with time.

Practice at LEAST 300 repetitions each day. It takes about 3000 reps to have the act grooved into your muscle memory.

2. Incorporate into your range time some draw and shoot practice. Here's how to do it safely...

a. Unload and load with snap caps.
b. Put up a target between 3 and 10 yards.
c. Practice that smooth, easy draw again. This time, practice drawing, coming immediately onto target and pulling the trigger. Dry-fire like this at least 100 times. Points to emphasize: the smooth draw, finger OFF the trigger until the gun goes on target, and the smooth trigger pressure, straight to the rear.
d. Now, load the gun. Practice drawing and firing one round at a time. After you shoot, scan for another threat--remember the +1 rule. After you draw and fire, and you can keep your rounds in the center of mass, start training to fire multiple rounds. Remember, you shoot to STOP.
e. The final step is to incorporate movement into your drill. When you have drawn, start moving. A couple of steps to either side will be enough to spoil someone's aim. Remember--everyone trains on stationary targets. Don't give them an easy target to shoot at.

Now, what's the other part of the warrior mindset? Simple...if you are confronted with the threat, ACTION beats REACTION.

Accept the possibility of having to take a hit. And, push into your mind that you will FIGHT through it at all costs.

Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. be aware and alert of your surroundings. Look ahead when you're out for possible trouble areas. If you're out with someone else, do NOT let them block your gun hand by walking on the same side.

Most importantly--if you start trading shots, MOVEMENT IS YOUR FRIEND.

Do NOT fire more than two rounds without displacing yourself to the side, either direction, at least one or two steps.

Once again, accept the possibility of getting hit--but always resolve to fight through it, and to put your assailant down.

BlueTrain
January 8, 2012, 10:46 AM
I was about to ask some questions that have been answered in the previous post, namely what would you do at the range that would help you in situations like this.

The first thing is to try to imagine the senario that is more or less what we have been talking about here. I'd say that 10 yards is stretching the limit on distance and even ten feet might be. In every convenience store holdup that I've seen on tape, the distance was maybe no more than six feet, although in all of those cases, there was a counter in between, so that's a different senario.

The second thing is to actually try to do some of those things at the range and that's where the problems come up, if it's a private range. All I've even been to (indoors) had lanes and you could not move in any direction. Some didn't allow any drawing and firing but some do. One outdoor range I know of doesn't even allow offhand rifle shooting and no rapid firing. So, I suppose you might have to make it up with alternative methods such as pellet guns or wax bullets. Even then you might no have a good place to practice.

I also might note that in all videos I've seen (so far) of individuals practicing for a close in confrontation either with another person (as an attacker) or just a target (as a target), the defending individual shot one handed and pointing only, basically hip shooting. And likewise, they were all within almost touching distance (six feet or less). Ever see anyone doing that at the range? Chances are he would be laughed at for having the target so close but maybe not, no matter how realistic it actually is.

So the challenges are numerous. And this is just for one possible situation.

tgreening
January 8, 2012, 11:18 AM
RE the OP's original point. The way I've had it explained is that given competent shooters, the first guy that decides to shoot wins, even if he has to draw and the other guy does not. The key being the first shooter has already decided what he is going to do and has begun to act on that decision. The other guy now has to see what is happening, correctly process the information in his brain, and then begin his reaction. Apparently it's the rare fellow that can do all that and still manage to take the first shot.

kraigwy
January 8, 2012, 11:20 AM
Bluetrain:

Let me address the range. I am a member of a couple local clubs but only shoot in their ranges if I'm conducting a clinic/match or shooting a match.

I really like shooting, all kinds of shooting so when I retired my goal was to pick a place where I could have my own range, and be able to shoot by just stepping out the door.

It took some research, spent a lot of time in the court house researching covenants and codes until I found the perfect place.

I wanted something that, when working on loads I could load a couple rounds, shoot, then go back to the loading bench without having to load up the truck and driving to a range.

Also I have target set up to 400 yards. Steel and paper. My shop is open to the range, meaning if its too cold and I get wimpy, I can shoot from inside the shop.

So yes, a private range is kind of handy, there aren't any rules regarding how I shoot. Excluding heavy rifles while wife is napping, as much as I like to shoot, I like to eat more.

Thinking about building a suppressor.

BlueTrain
January 8, 2012, 01:33 PM
Good for you. There are more people in this county where I live, about 1,300,000, than in all of Wyoming, yet I see deer and foxes in my back yard. My boss's wife was born in Wyoming and still owns a ranch there. They somehow met in Europe.

You sound like Dobe Grant. You don't happen to own a cut-down Model 1917 Colt, do you?

Double Naught Spy
January 8, 2012, 03:03 PM
DNS,

The Tueller drill is a different thing, because the runner (with the simulated knife) is the one who is acting and the shooter the one who is reacting to the other person's movement.

The person who reacts is usually the person who loses, because action takes less time than reaction.

pax

Ah, the "action beats reaction" thing again. Assuming preliminary variables are held constant - meaning not relying on the issue of distraction or other variables that directly hamper movement, action only beats reaction in comparable movements or comparable timed movements. Action does not beat reaction when the reactionary movement is shorter in time by as much time as needed to start the reaction. We've played the airsoft draw on a drawn gun game. The person drawing instigates the action. The person with the drawn gun reacts and shoots the person who drew before he has a chance shoot, often before he has a chance to even clear leather.

Why does this happen? Because action doesn't beat reaction when the time to comlete the action isn't small enough to overcome the redcued amount of time required for the reaction event to be accomplished.

If you are just talking about action beating reaction, it doesn't work in this type of scenario. What kraigwy is talking about isn't just action/reaction but longer timed action beating distraction time plus the much shorter reaction time. If kraigwy was counting on action beating reaction, he would not be relying on the distraction aspect before starting his action.

Yes, the Tueller Drill is different, but as I noted, the person drawing often loses, but not always. The guy with the knife often loses. How is that possible if his movement was action and the person drawing was reaction? Simple. The person drawing can react and complete the task quicker than the action of running the 21 feet to stab the shooter. In those cases, reaction beats action.

Reaction comonly beats action. That is why martial artists learn and effectively use blocking moves. The moves to block as a reaction are usually moves shorter in duration than the action moves to strike.

There is one additional benefit to kraigwy's reliance on distraction. A lot of bad guys really are not prepared to start shooting. Unfortunately, there are some good guys with the same problem. So if something goes wrong from the bad guy's perspective, their first inclination isn't necessarily to pull the trigger and that costs them valuable time as well.

nate noted...
The above is the product of one of those practice drills. Eight shots in 2.08 seconds, with a .53 reaction time and .22 average split. Thats not really that remarkable, till you consider the fact that it was with 230 grain +P ammo and all eight shots hit the torso A-zone of an ISPC target five yards away.

It is rather remarkable with regular ammo or +P compared to about 99% of gun owners. I found it rather amusing to be in gun classes such as at Thunder Ranch and doing a 3 or 5 shot drill of some sort and I could be finished firing and completing a mag change and be scanning and there would still be people firing.

From what I have seen, the average concealed carry person has a 3-4 second draw and fire first shot which is often much longer with alternative forms of carry. The practiced CCW person is usually in the 1.75 to <3.0 second range. These are times that are not after the person has been drawing and firing during a range session and is warmed but, but in having participants come in from the street, put on safety glasses and muffs and taken to the firing line. The shots are cold, from concealment, and without the benefit of retucking shirts, moving holsters, emptying pockets of additonal gear.

Yes, skilled and well practiced individuals are much faster. This group of people is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the general concealed carry population.

MLeake
January 8, 2012, 03:06 PM
DNS, there is one thing you haven't mentioned about your airsoft experiments: unless you have omitted mentioning that it was a blind test, then the guys you trained with EXPECTED the victim to draw a weapon, and were waiting for any cue that was happening.

If the person doesn't actually anticipate resistance, that could put a definite damper on his reaction time.

It's not just about readiness to shoot, it's also about expectations.

Deja vu
January 8, 2012, 03:16 PM
reverse the roll, if you had the drop on a bad guy (who you are unsure is armed) and he went for a weapon think you could pull the trigger before he unholstered draw and fire?

MLeake
January 8, 2012, 03:19 PM
Reversing your roll, if I have drawn on a BG, then he has already threatened me, and I am expecting trouble.

Same problem with DNS's airsoft test.

So, hopefully, yes, I'd put 2 or 3 good hits in first.

Frank Ettin
January 8, 2012, 03:40 PM
Remember when you are considering these types of situations and how you might handle one, it's not a matter of what other people can/have been able to do. It's a question of what you can do.

Do you really know what you can do? Reliably and consistently? How do you know? Are you satisfied? If not, what are you doing to get better?

nate45
January 8, 2012, 03:46 PM
So the challenges are numerous. And this is just for one possible situation.

The Myth of Muscle Memory (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/the-myth-of-muscle-memory/)

There’s no such thing as muscle memory. Literally speaking, your muscles don’t have memory. Nor do they operate independently. Your brain sends your muscles a signal to move. They move. Gun gurus and their acolytes use the term “muscle memory” to refer to unconscious or subconscious muscle movement. The Myth of Muscle Memory (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/the-myth-of-muscle-memory/)

But you cannot train anyone’s “muscle memory” to respond to every threat situation appropriately. There are too many scenarios, too many potential variables.

Nor should you try. In fact, you should avoid training yourself to respond to threats with “muscle memory.” By doing so, you run the very real risk of activating the wrong “memory” or, if you will, subconscious stimulus -> response program. Get it wrong and, again, the wrong person may die. And that includes you. The Myth of Muscle Memory (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/the-myth-of-muscle-memory/)

Too many scenarios, too many situations where thinking and not reacting fast will win the day.

Having a smooth draw and accurate shooting are potentially valuable skills. Knowing when the risk out weighs the reward and how to still critically think under intense, life threatening situations maybe better ones. Having your handgun already drawn, or avoiding the situation entirely are always going to be better solutions.


It is rather remarkable with regular ammo or +P compared to about 99% of gun owners. I found it rather amusing to be in gun classes such as at Thunder Ranch and doing a 3 or 5 shot drill of some sort and I could be finished firing and completing a mag change and be scanning and there would still be people firing.

Yeah, it is kinda fast, but I spent years and years practicing...on targets. :)

If I'm in a real world shooting situation though, there won't be any range timers beeping, or stationary paper targets waiting patiently to get shot. When someone is holding a loaded firearm on me from 1-3 yards away and all they have to do is get in one lucky shot to end my life... who can really say? Even if you've been there before and survived, there's no guarantee they can again.

kraigwy
January 8, 2012, 04:15 PM
The Myth of the The Myth of Muscle Memory

The ideal that there is no such thing of "muscle memory" is a myth within itself.

Unless you want to banter words. As to muscle's remembering anything, maybe, but the term "muscle memory" does not mean muscles remembering anything.

Muscle memory is the ability to act subsciencely without realizing it, and that isn't a myth.

A good example: Lets say you shoot competition, lots of competition with a rifle. You shoot with both eyes open. You've done that for years, thousands of rounds. So today you go hunting and shoot a critter, then someone asked you if you shot the critter with both eyes open. You don't know, but chances are you did have both eyes open.............that's muscle memory as it relates to shooting and shooting sports.

You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.

It's semitics. A clip is a clip unless you are clipping hair.

nate45
January 8, 2012, 04:20 PM
You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.

What you wrote in that post is true Kraig, but the article I linked to is about bad things that happen when people react without thinking.

Ben Towe
January 8, 2012, 04:32 PM
Wyatt Earp said, "The even break is a thing for dime novelists and dead fools." His point being is the man who is on his gun first usually wins. The drop has been beaten, and no doubt will be again, but even if you're Bob Munden fast it's going to be touch-and-go who gets killed. If you try it (not to say that I wouldn't) you better be prepared for that eventuality.

Frank Ettin
January 8, 2012, 04:43 PM
You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.What you wrote in that post is true Kraig, but the article I linked to is about bad things that happen when people react without thinking. Nate, I think you've misunderstood. If I may.

I believe what Kraig was talking about is training to the point that you can perform the necessary physical actions reflexively, i. e., without having to think about how to do them. This is usually called "unconscious competence."

So if you need to use your gun, your conscious mind focuses on deciding what to do and how to do it -- not how to make your gun work.

BlueTrain
January 8, 2012, 05:55 PM
All of you are making excellent posts, mostly, and new points of view are being revealed. Ultimately, this thread is about one kind of reaction to one kind of threat. Now, some people can think faster than other people; thinking on your feet, you might say. Others simply will not react at all. Or rather, not react in such a way as to do them (or anyone) any good. How on earth you overcome this problem I don't know. Training, perhaps, if there is a kind of training that will incorporate real danger.

And another thing: I am starting to believe that not all trainers even believe the same thing, although that may not be important, provided the results are the same. This has apparently always been true, too, at least as far back as whenever someone actually wrote about what they were doing. But, just the same, there isn't a great deal written about this particular scenario, I don't think. And such stuff as I have found is more in the nature of trick shooting that only a highly practiced and gifted individual could "pull off." And that's not me.

Stevie-Ray
January 8, 2012, 06:10 PM
Thinking about building a suppressor.I've seen one for large rifle shooting. Kinda looked like a giant stainless doughnut. But it was supposed to really put the kabosh on all that noise. If I had my own range, I'd certainly want one also.

kraigwy
January 8, 2012, 06:33 PM
there isn't a great deal written about this particular senario

Maybe not, I've been out of the game for a while, retiring in 1994 but in the 70s there was a big push among police departments for this type of training after Joseph Wambaugh's The Onion Field came out. It is based on an actual 1963 case.

I don't know if anyone read the book, but it amounts to two officers held at gun point and forced to give up their guns. They were taken to a field (the Onion Field) where one officer was killed the other escaped.

About that time, there was a big push about NEVER GIVING UP YOUR GUN, based on this we started training and discovered, just because some one has the drop on you, doesn't mean you are at an disadvantage.

After retiring, I kept up the practice and still teach it.

BillCA
January 8, 2012, 07:23 PM
Some folks here are arguing in a vacuum. As pointed out, when these things happen there is sometimes shouting and lots of motion going on. The thug demanding valuables and the victim pleading for his life or assuring the thug he'll comply. These events are rarely static.

It behooves us all to practice some form of hand-to-hand tactics for those times when it's much easier to attack the thug's gun hand than outdraw the gun. Indeed, it may actually be better to step closer or "into" the thug's space and attack his gun hand (and body) than try to draw your own gun.

Action can often beat reaction simply because the reacting party has to "catch up" to events. If he is primed and ready with only a single decision to make (pull trigger) he might prevail, but only because the initiating party failed to make it harder for him. Making it harder isn't difficult. At "bad breath" distance slapping the gun hand away or taking an extended finger shot at the eyes requires the thug to process that action. If you're moving off his line of fire at the same time, it requires more processing for him to decide how to correct for it.

If you can draw in 1.5 seconds and act while the thug is talking to slap his gun hand away hard and then moving to the side, what happens? Let's presume he has good reaction time. That's 0.5 seconds to realize his gun has been slapped away. Another 0.25 seconds for him to stop the motion of his arm and just start it coming back on target. But you're moving too, so now another 0.25 to 0.5 seconds to observe and 0.25 seconds to "predict" where he needs to shoot. He still needs 0.25 to 0.75 seconds to bring his gun on target. But you began your draw the moment your hand made contact with his. You have already decided the action sequence you'll perform -- slap, move, draw, fire -- and have few distractions from him while he's reacting.

ME? I'm going to comply with his demands until such time as I can either see he's distracted, create a distraction for him to process or I know that he's going to shoot me anyhow. I may be too late, but I'll do my best to take him with me.

nate45
January 8, 2012, 11:25 PM
Nate, I think you've misunderstood. If I may.

I believe what Kraig was talking about is training to the point that you can perform the necessary physical actions reflexively, i. e., without having to think about how to do them. This is usually called "unconscious competence."

So if you need to use your gun, your conscious mind focuses on deciding what to do and how to do it -- not how to make your gun work.

The Myth of the The Myth of Muscle Memory

The ideal that there is no such thing of "muscle memory" is a myth within itself.

Unless you want to banter words. As to muscle's remembering anything, maybe, but the term "muscle memory" does not mean muscles remembering anything.

Muscle memory is the ability to act subsciencely without realizing it, and that isn't a myth.

A good example: Lets say you shoot competition, lots of competition with a rifle. You shoot with both eyes open. You've done that for years, thousands of rounds. So today you go hunting and shoot a critter, then someone asked you if you shot the critter with both eyes open. You don't know, but chances are you did have both eyes open.............that's muscle memory as it relates to shooting and shooting sports.

You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.

It's semitics. A clip is a clip unless you are clipping hair.




No, I understood what he was saying, I just didn't think he had read the article I linked to. The Myth of Muscle Memory (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/the-myth-of-muscle-memory/) I didn't title it, the author did. It isn't about semantics, or not practicing drawing ones handgun, training, etc. Its about thinking under stress and thinking about each different and separate scenario you might be in. Notwithstanding, the drills and draw practice one might have done. Its also about how some individuals had ingrained bad habits into their 'muscle memory', thats what 'muscle memory' is after all, a habit.

The trick to not “over-training” your muscle memory: restrict your subconscious programming to the fundamentals. Of course you need to be able to unconsciously draw your weapon. Same goes for aiming and firing (hence my newfound fascination with point shooting). But what you do with these skills—gunfighting—should not be an unconscious process. You need to think. The Myth of Muscle Memory (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/the-myth-of-muscle-memory/)

All thats not to say that I believe anyone here is advocating not thinking. However, rote drawing and firing practice only goes so far. There are so many variables and possible nuances to each possible scenario, that they will only be able to be evaluated at the time they are occurring. Not drawing and firing could well be the best solution, depending on the circumstance.

BlueTrain
January 9, 2012, 09:09 AM
Over training? That's a good one. I generally gather from reading in this forum that no one is adequately trained, much less over trained. Or at least that's the opinion of some people. Me? I don't know.

The think is, as I think I alread said, that this is only a single self defense senario, although for a civilian, it may the most important one if you live in town. If you live in wild Alaska, maybe not so important. If most of your outdoor time is spent in a car on a crowded highway, again not so important.

But assuming then that this close-in defensive situation is what you are most likely to have happen to you, more so than any other, then equip and train yourself for that moment and forget all that target shooting at 25 yards with your K-38. Because it won't help.

At this point I might bring up yet another diversion of opinions on self defense with a handgun as a subject for thought and discussion. There seems to have been two schools of thought on the matter of using a handgun for self defense. I already brought up the subject once but it seems worth mentioning again.

One line of thinking believes that you ought to be a proficient formal target shooter before you progress to an advanced topic like fast draw. Not surprisingly, most proponents of that belief were sucessful competitive target shooters and also mostly policemen. Bill Jordan was one such person, Elmer Keith (never a policeman) was another.

The other line of thinking is just the opposite and is, in a way, based partly on the assumption that you will not be able to become a proficient target shot, chiefly because there isn't enough time. But it is also based on the assumption that it detracts from actual combat shooting proficiency. That assumption was based on their own experiences and studies of old time gunfighter's techniques. These two distinctly separate approaches to gunfighting are older than I am, by the way.

I also observe that these two different ways of thinking have produced different kinds of guns for personal self defense. At one time the classic S&W K-38 was a common police weapon. It is easy to see which line of thinking those users followed. Likewise, there is the complete opposite with the Seecamp pistols, which don't even have sights. Seecamp's theory of self defense apparently didn't think a lot about shooting people (don't forget, that's what we're talking about) at 25 yards or even 15 yards. But I already see that one or two people in this thread are followers of the up close theory of serious shooting and have equipped themselves appropriately.

I'm still working on a few details in this regard myself.

Frank Ettin
January 9, 2012, 01:00 PM
...The Myth of Muscle Memory I didn't title it, the author did. It isn't about semantics, or not practicing drawing ones handgun, training, etc. Its about thinking under stress and thinking about each different and separate scenario you might be in. Notwithstanding, the drills and draw practice one might have done. Its also about how some individuals had ingrained bad habits into their 'muscle memory', thats what 'muscle memory' is after all, a habit... Having just read the article again, the title is really very misleading. It's not about whether or not one can or should learn to do certain things reflexively. It's about the dangers of learning to do the wrong things reflexively. It's sort of like the way I keep saying that if you keep practicing the wrong things you'll just become an expert at doing things wrong.

So if a training protocol requires the student to pick up the brass after every shot string, we have come to understand that teaches a dangerously counterproductive habit. It's not about overtraining. It's about training the wrong things.

JerryM
January 9, 2012, 03:10 PM
I hope it is OK to re-state this.
Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG. There have been cases of a person absorbing several shots from .357 Mag or .45 ACP and still able to shoot you. Forget the movies and TV shootings.

Unless you are very sure that you are going to get shot anyway it is foolish to try to beat the drop. I believe that those who, at the range, can draw from under a cover garment in less than normal reaction time could not do it when the situation would arise in the real world. Even Bill Jordan did not draw from cover when he did beat the drop. And I doubt there are any Bill Jordans here.

Jerry

TexasJustice7
January 9, 2012, 03:44 PM
BenTote: Wyatt Earp said, "The even break is a thing for dime novelists and dead fools." His point being is the man who is on his gun first usually wins. The drop has been beaten, and no doubt will be again, but even if you're Bob Munden fast it's going to be touch-and-go who gets killed. If you try it (not to say that I wouldn't) you better be prepared for that eventuality.

I found it interesting too regarding about Wyat Earp. Once some guy had the drop on him and he hollered out, looking beyond the guy, hey Don't shoot him with that shot gun, hes just drunk and when the guy turned to look he drew and shot him. What gets me is how fast Mat Dillon on Gunsmoke can draw that 45 of his. Mine sure can't get out that fast.:(

Glenn E. Meyer
January 9, 2012, 03:56 PM
If you watch, the other guys fires before Dillon. But he misses. Oops.

kraigwy
January 9, 2012, 04:01 PM
Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG.

Captain's Fairbirn & Sykes wrote about this in their book "Shooting To Live"

The were involved in one way or other over 600 shooting. Several times bandits were hit several times with a 45 and had to be pistol whipped to be subdued.

However they did report that shots in the lower stomach were a different matter, they may not kill or knock the bandit down, but it almost always caused them to drop their gun and grab their stomachs.

Never have I said, "only shoot once". You do what you have to, with however many rounds it takes to eliminate the threat. That don't mean you have to kill them.

And forget the re-action times are only for young'ins. All it takes is practice, lots of practice............practice gives even an old man (I'm 64) the ability to get his revolver out of his pocket and on target.

I just came in from playing in the back yard with a shot timer and my 642.

From the pocket: 7 yards, all shots kept in the A zone or a tad out side (remember I start with my hands in my pocket on the revolver. Nothing in the pocket to interfer with the revolver.

Round 1: .51 sec
Round 2: .78 sec
Round 3: 1.05 sec
Round 4: 1.35 sec
Round 5: 1.58 sec

Not bad reaction time for an old man.

It's all about practice, I'll not give up if all it takes to survive is a bit of training and lots of practice.

nate45
January 9, 2012, 04:22 PM
Since this is all hypothetical and none of us know exactly how one of these situations might transpire. I'll offer up the idea of a distraction.

I believe it was Massad Ayoob in one of his Guns and Ammo, American Hand Gunner, etc articles, who put forth the following idea. It applies to an on the street robbery situation, stick up or whatever one wants to call it.

The idea is to have a money clip with a twenty on top and some ones IIRC. You produce it from your pocket and throw it on the ground close to the BG's feet.

If he/she picks it up and runs off all the better I say. I'd rather lose a little money than shoot someone. However, something along those lines might provide the half second or so distraction one needed to produce and fire their weapon.

BlueTrain
January 9, 2012, 04:33 PM
I recall that comment from "Shooting to live." I can believe it, too. I can even believe one can be knocked down before you realize it. But let's not go off in the direction just yet.

Although I have read that you shouldn't mention what you read, at least in the presence of someone who's trying to teach you something, I do try to read as much on the subject as time will allow. And just like Fairbairn said in his book, the more he learned (though he was talking about stopping power), the less certain he was about anything. Fortunately, he was mostly writing from a military and police perspective, not so much from a civilian self-defense point of view but he does talk about it. He even praised at least one fellow for developing some of his own ideas.

A lot of magazine articles are full of negative comments about other people's ideas and sometimes that shows up here, too. But I suppose a little criticism now and then will make you think--hopefully. But even writing that doesn't use up most of the space attacking some one else's system is still so different that one can't help but decide to start from scratch and develop one's own system. Even very large organizations that use firearms end up doing things differently, presumably for good reasons. Same with individuals if left to their own devices. Naturally this is assuming a lot about the intelligence, resourcefulness and cleverness of private citizens but that's America for you.

While I've made critical comments about pocket carry in other threads with regards to a fast draw, those are certainly respectable times there. You probably are aware that Keith included in his "Sixguns" photos of an old-timer who had the same habit of always carrying a pistol in his left front pants pocket, in his case, a Remington double derringer.

G1R2
January 9, 2012, 05:06 PM
This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.

kraigwy
January 9, 2012, 05:14 PM
This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.

It's easier to say something can't be done then it is to go do it.

Powderman
January 9, 2012, 06:16 PM
Folks, some of you are missing the point. It is NOT about waving some magic wand to escape injury. It is not about having on magic bullet repellent.

It is the mindset that will allow you to FIGHT BACK; to SURVIVE at any cost. It is not the newest training method, nor is it some neat-o stance that will make you look ultra cool.

It is about using your handgun to live; to survive; so walk away from a deadly encounter.

As a side note, perhaps the most functional concealed handgun in existence is the Smith and Wesson 640 series.

This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.

Drawing against an armed man works. Not all the time, but it WORKS. If it is all that you have left, or the only thing you can do in that circumstance, yes--it can work.

Take that as you will, those who want to--but it does and can work.

Brian Pfleuger
January 9, 2012, 06:57 PM
It's easier to say something can't be done then it is to go do it.

Especially if it really CAN'T be done! :) ;)

pax
January 9, 2012, 07:56 PM
Powderman ~

Post #64 (link (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4896905&postcount=64)) is the most intelligent post in this informative thread. IMO, of course, and YMMV. Thanks for posting it.

One of the things I did in my early training was to make a list of circumstances under which I would fight back even if I didn't think I could win.

The thing that drove me to make that list was a scenario-based class at the Firearms Academy of Seattle. In that class, there was one scenario that forced students to make that choice: surrender, get on your knees, turn your back on the bad guys -- or fight back at horrible odds. My own decision point came when the "bad guy" ordered me to walk with him to a back room. Uh uh. No way, no how.

I ain't goin' out like that. (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2006/09/i-aint-goin-out-like-that.html)

I think sometimes the whole "but you can't do that!" brigade misses an important point.

pax

Powderman
January 9, 2012, 08:48 PM
I think sometimes the whole "but you can't do that!" brigade misses an important point.

THIS is the entire point that I was trying to make. Thanks!

The point, folks is this...there may come a time when the remainder of your life can be measured in seconds. In fractions of a second. You have to decide now--how will you deal with it?

When I was younger, I was a frequent victim of violent crime. If you lived in the City of Chicago, you learned that armed robberies and muggings were a common occurrence. I learned a number of lessons:

1. Criminals are COWARDS. They want an easy, compliant victim.
2. Criminals COUNT on you being cowed into submission.
3. Criminals count on it so much that if you do use an affirmative, dynamic resistance, THEY will more than likely be frozen for the split second that it takes for you to press home your response.

It comes down to a decision; a choice that YOU have to make. You are there. There is a good chance that you will NOT be leaving that spot alive. However, all is not lost--you have a concealed pistol, it is loaded, and you are good with it. You can at least make a stand.

But--if you draw, there is an excellent chance that you will be shot. You don't want to feel the impact of a bullet.

And yet, the time approaches. Now, he's telling you to turn around; to go to your knees.

Dear God. Will I die here, today; right now?

You have the choice.

Go like a lamb to the slaughter.

Or take the fight to the potential killer.

I remember a video I saw. A lion, crouching, ready to attack. His target--three men with heavy rifles, ready to kill him. The lion charges!

Bullets throw dirt into the air, and he big cat feels the smashing, brutal impact of heavy caliber rifle fire at close range. Yet, the lion does not turn away. It does not falter. With its dying breath, it leaps!

One hunter is knocked away by the impact of a huge paw. More firing, more hard impacts.

The great cat is dead.

Yet, one of its killers will carry the lion's mark until his dying day; a reminder of a magnificent animal who refused to go quietly into that good night.

I am here to tell you all--once again--that the quick reaction works. Acting against the armed criminal can work well. But--there can be no second thought, no hesitation. Once you move, you commit. You MUST finish your attack, at ALL costs.

I know this from personal experience.

Do not go quietly.
Do not roll over meekly and show your belly.
FIGHT.

TXAZ
January 9, 2012, 09:00 PM
I hope no one here has to find out for real on this. The "hey guys it works" is little consolation for the flipside of "he tried it and is dead".

TheGoldenState
January 9, 2012, 09:29 PM
What about the guys who carry without one in the chamber:D;)

Brian Pfleuger
January 9, 2012, 09:38 PM
So far as I can tell, "I'm about to die no matter what..." is not even related to the point of the OP.

I don't think anyone doubts that there may come a time where it's fight and die or don't fight and die anyway.

I see no mention of that scenario in the OP.

It's a question of can we draw faster than someone can pull a trigger and if "the advantage is in your court" when your gun is holstered or in your pocket but the BG is pointing his gun at you.

MAYBE you can get a shot off, or two, or five. That hardly means YOU have the advantage when the BG has you covered.

If it's an "advantage", it would be something you TRIED to bring about.

Don't we WANT the advantage?

I'm not arguing about any of the possibilities. Someone pointing a gun at you DOES NOT give you an advantage.

BillCA
January 9, 2012, 10:07 PM
Especially if it really CAN'T be done!

Oh, but it can (and has) been done. Usually out of sheer desperation.

Force Science showed it can be done and without lots of training when the person at gunpoint initiates the action decisively. Other studies involving the OODA loop indicate that our reaction times can almost double when we are talking. If the person is performing a physical action -- like reaching back to pull out handcuffs or tucking your wallet into his jacket -- reaction times are 1/3 to 1/2 second longer. The mind is focused on completing the manual task and an interruption requires the mind to "shift gears" and address the new information.

Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG. There have been cases of a person absorbing several shots from .357 Mag or .45 ACP and still able to shoot you. Forget the movies and TV shootings.

Unless you are very sure that you are going to get shot anyway it is foolish to try to beat the drop.

We don't need the magic one-shot-stop bullet. We simply need a momentary distraction on his part to enable us to draw and fire. Once we begin firing, multiple shots (and ideally hits) will prevent him from responding coherently.

In my experience, a person suddenly surprised by the thunder & lightning of a handgun muzzle blast, even if they are not hit, they will duck, dodge and/or flinch. That BG who suddenly sees you pull a gun and move sideways begins to respond when there is a flash and a loud boom. Hot powder and the concussion wave will force him to flinch and involuntarily squint or close his eyes. He may fire off a shot in reaction, but it's unlikely to be aimed or accurate except by blind luck.

Nate: The decoy money clip goes hand in hand with the idea of a decoy wallet. The money clip has to show cash where the wallet does not. Either one entices a pick-up which is sufficient distraction to allow us to respond.

pax
January 9, 2012, 10:11 PM
For those who say you can't fight back if the criminal has the drop on you: http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2012/01/09/columbus-clerk-fights-back-in-attempted-robbery.html

From tonight's news.

pax

Nordeste
January 10, 2012, 07:21 AM
Maybe in fantasy land.

An already nervous criminal with a finger on the trigger has you beat.

You are not going to make any large movements before that finger can move.

True.

Distracting the BG may be an option, but a truly resolved thug with a finger on the trigger will be quicker than you drawing. Also, throwing away my wallet so he picks it up sounds... funny. If I were the thug, it would be YOU the one picking it up. Or if it's actually a really bad person, he may just shoot you for that.

Don P
January 10, 2012, 07:36 AM
Snubnose in the jacket pocket... you don't even have to draw

I want to see this in our summer months in FLA.

I am truly amazed that this thread has gone this far and no one has been poked in the eye yet. ( Thread closed ) Nice job to all who have replied

output
January 10, 2012, 08:56 AM
For those who say you can't fight back if the criminal has the drop on you: http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/...d-robbery.html

From tonight's news.

pax


Advising that there is innate danger when trying to “out draw” someone should not be mistaken for directing an individual to be a victim, or not defend themselves. Some of us just made the point that the act of outdrawing might not be the best first move or upshot. There is also a big difference between someone asking for keys or a cell phone, and someone telling you “I will kill you for your money and a beer and cigar.” In your link, the clerk did not have a gun already pointed at his face, and the clerk saw a knife in the assailants pocket not a gun.

MLeake
January 10, 2012, 09:40 AM
For those times when the other options might actually be worse, practicing to distract and draw are good ideas.

For bad breath distance, when other options don't look good, practicing to attack / disarm and draw are good ideas.

Developing a good draw technique is a good idea.

This doesn't mean you always have to do one of the above when threatened; it does mean that if you have trained at it, and if it seems necessary, it can work.

OTOH, not training, and trying to improvise for the first time when already in harm's way, is very likely to decrease the odds in a major way.

BlueTrain
January 10, 2012, 09:47 AM
Let me just ask a couple of questions here about how people see this scenario and their reaction.

First, at what distance are people assuming this is all happening?

And second, are people thinking their response will be aimed fire with two hands or something else?

Brian Pfleuger
January 10, 2012, 10:11 AM
I am trying not to make any assumptions that are not in the OP:

you're armed what would you do.

I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

After reading about the Cousin who got carjacked, or maybe another subject...

...if you get the guy talking, you'll beat him every time....


Talking distance (3 feet? 5 feet?, 10 feet?), carjacking distance (what's the length of a car door? 3 feet?), gun pointed at you, not waving around at a room full of people.

Those are my assumptions.


So many arguments just don't seem relevant. Of course it's better to be better trained. Who said it wasn't?

Of course it's "possible" to fight and win against bad odds.

Those things are not the point of the OP.

My points are (have been) as follows:

1)Some one pointing a gun at you does not give you an advantage.

2)"What would yo do?" Nothing, unless I thought I was going to be shot anyway. No point in turning a robbery into a shootout, even if I come out unscathed, especially if I don't.

3)"It can be done" is irrelevent. SHOULD it be done. I believe that the OP implies that drawing and firing is the correct course of action... He asks what would you do and goes on to explain why he can draw and fire faster than the BG can shoot.

I believe that CHOOSING to fire on armed bad guys is almost always a bad choice. By far, most robberies end without people getting killed or severely injured. By far, most shootouts do not.

If you believe you are about to be shot (and him having a gun does not mean you're about to be shot) or they're going to execute you in the cooler, that's one thing. Starting a gun battle at "Yo, give up da cash and no buddy gets hurt!" is quite another.

brickeyee
January 10, 2012, 12:19 PM
All the example in the world do not change the fact you are in a BAD spot if someone 'has the drop' on you.

Can a really fast person beat them? Maybe.

Finding out is a lot more dangerous than shooting balloons and inanimate targets really fast.

Luckily most of the hood rats are lousy shots and often barely know how to operate their gun.

The problem is it only takes one and you end up with a nice hole in your hide.

It may not kill you, but then you also thought you could outdraw the rat, that's how you ended up with the hole.

how many chances do you want to take?

If you are really sure you will be shot anyway (taken mind reading classes?) additional 'chances' would probably be in order.


Training and even having 'practiced' distraction are good.

Being able to stay calm is probably the most important thing.

After some time as a paramedic I can stay calm with damn near anything in front of me. It scares my wife sometimes.

We stopped once at a fresh accident with a decapitated driver.
I took note, realized there was nothing anyone could do, and calmly told the state cop that showed up about 5 minutes later what had happened (I saw the entire under-run accident occur).

He thanked me, went to look at the victim, returned and proceeded to toss his cookies.
He was pretty young, and rather embarrassed.

I handed him a paper towel to clean up.





There is already one nervous idiot pointing a gun at someone.
Adding a second one is not a good recipe.

BillCA
January 11, 2012, 02:43 AM
Distracting the BG may be an option, but a truly resolved thug with a finger on the trigger will be quicker than you drawing. Also, throwing away my wallet so he picks it up sounds... funny. If I were the thug, it would be YOU the one picking it up. Or if it's actually a really bad person, he may just shoot you for that.


I carry a decoy wallet. Some time ago I moved to a money clip and a small business-card wallet for credit cards. The old wallet contains some very outdated cards -- none with my address on them -- for ID purposes and I usually keep about 5 one's in it along with an expired Visa Gift card that looks like a Visa card. If I pull it out of my left (weak) side rear pocket I may toss it at his feet or at his outstretched hand. There are reasons for all of this and all of them can possibly give me an advantage. It won't take acting lessons for me to appear nervous and scared when I "accidentally" drop the wallet near him or his hand and that's what he wants - fear as a compliance tool.

To address the question of how you'd actually fire... It's likely going to be very close range - 10 ft or less - so one-handed point shooting is going to be the initial mode. And since you may be forced to move laterally, including over and behind other objects, keeping one hand free for balancing will be more important that acquiring a 2 hand hold on the gun.

motorhead0922
January 11, 2012, 10:37 AM
My "decoy wallet", if you want to call it that, is a Recluse holster with a BG380. I've done some practicing to be able to pull the gun without appearing to be doing anything unusual. I'm not quite there yet.

The situation will determine which back pocket I reach for.

Kraigwy, your tests have all started with your hand in your front pocket where you carry the 642, since that's a common stance for you. What do you think about the rest of us who don't walk around that way? Would that change your opinion of the outcome? How fast can you draw starting with your hand outside the pocket?

harleybayo
January 11, 2012, 11:18 AM
Hello friends interesting read! their are many opinions but all in all the conversation is a good one, But I have seen it in class when the bandit has the drop on you, ke/she will lose focus on you if not for a second. But the real world has many options to the outcome, being prepared for what hapens in any given situation is the key, luck has very little to do with anything. Be safe.

kraigwy
January 11, 2012, 11:57 AM
Kraigwy, your tests have all started with your hand in your front pocket where you carry the 642, since that's a common stance for you. What do you think about the rest of us who don't walk around that way? Would that change your opinion of the outcome? How fast can you draw starting with your hand outside the pocket?

NO

Back in the 70s when we first started practicing this I was in LE, I used a Hoyt breakfront. It worked then, but I haven't played with it much since retiring. I do use the Hoyt now in ICORE, its still the fastest "belt" holster I've ever used.

What I liked about the Hoyt, besides being fast, it was secure, since cops spend more time wrestling bandits then shooting them, that's a necessary in a duty holster.

It's hard to come up with accurate numbers (times) when we are talking about "action" as opposed to "reaction". I use a shot timer, the problem is, you're still re'acting to the beep of the timer and not "acting".

Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.

hangglider
January 11, 2012, 12:04 PM
Good stuff--thanks guys.

AK103K
January 11, 2012, 12:22 PM
Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.
An easy way to show this, is to get a buddy, and standing close together, face to face, have them hold their hand up to the side of their face at their temple. You hold your hand up to your face on the same side, and then tell them your going to 'touch" their ear and they should use their hand there guarding it to block you. 99.9% of the time, they cant, and thats even with them knowing its coming.

Now, to put it more into perspective, put your hand in your pocket and do it, and see if you get the same result.

BillCA
January 11, 2012, 11:01 PM
When pocket carrying, your draw "starts" once your hand closes around the grip. Remember, if the BG is demanding your money or wallet, he's expecting you to reach into a pocket to retrieve it. Executed smoothly he'll never have enough time to react before the first one or two bullets are incoming.

In addition, whilst reaching into your pocket, you can be using your weak hand, palm out, waving and saying "alright, alright, no problem" to distract him from closely observing what your strong hand is doing. He has to watch to be sure you won't try to reach for his gun or slap it away and he can't look at two things at once.

Watch this classic misdirection (even though it's Hollywood).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZLei_8EZ8

Dwight55
January 11, 2012, 11:14 PM
Hey, Bill, . . . thanks, my friend. I was thinking about that video the other day, . . . saw your post, . . . thought I'd see if you used it, . . . you did.

It is absolutely one of my favorite you tubes, . . . made my day.

May God bless,
Dwight

hangglider
January 12, 2012, 07:17 AM
Cool video--but ridiculous, IMO. A "reasoning" perp? sure.

pax
January 12, 2012, 12:47 PM
Oh, hey, as long as we're talking Hollywood: http://www.thegunzone.com/software/zubiena.html

It's worth reading & definitely worth watching the embedded video clip. Be sure to catch Zubiena's response, too: http://www.thegunzone.com/software/zubiena2.html

pax

Catfishman
January 14, 2012, 12:30 AM
Post #64 (link) is the most intelligent post in this informative thread. IMO, of course, and YMMV. Thanks for posting it.



I would give that honor to Post #58 in my IMHO.

Even though it goes against every fiber of my being, you are usually better off doing as you are told when looking down the barrel of a gun. However, there are times that you have to trust you instincts and fight back even if the odds aren't good. This is the case whether you are armed or not.

We are assuming you are already in this terrible situation. But, of course the most important thing to remember is, don't let it get that far before you do something to change the situation.

Cornbread
January 15, 2012, 01:55 PM
If I’m the BG I will be watching your hands telling you what I want !! If you don’t shut up and listen OR make a fast move with those hands I’m watching I’ll send a couple down range to see if that helps you comply…. On the other hand if I was the good guy I would have to draw .. Practice will help but you won’t know the outcome till it happens . My Opinion..

C0untZer0
January 17, 2012, 07:48 PM
This link is posted in another thread but it is an example of a succesfull DGU even when the bandit had "the drop" on the intended victim.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-nn-crime-spree,0,7992127.story

kraigwy
January 17, 2012, 08:27 PM
I saw that link and was gonna re-post it here but figured I PO'ed off enough people already on this topic.

Double Naught Spy
January 18, 2012, 11:42 AM
Here is a neat study showing how fast reaction can actually be...
http://prism.bham.ac.uk/pdf_files/Welchman_et_al_PRSB_2010.pdf

Turns out, initiated action can be slower than reaction.

Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.

Once again, context is critical. Are you talking about actual action and reaction or successful completion of action and reaction where the tasks being performed by not be comparable? Action may be faster than reaction by definition, but not necessarily by application in regard to completion or success of tasks. If the time it takes for the action to start and run to completion is longer than the time of the reaction from start to completion, then the action can be beat by the reaction. The time to complete the action may be much longer than the reaction because the action may involve more tasks, tasks of longer duration, or tasks covering a greater distance.

Watch this classic misdirection ...
Right, to add greater time to the completion of the reactive task that otherwise might be shorter than the active task, things like misdirection can be used. The bad guy with the drawn gun isn't apt to make the decision to pull the trigger if he doesn't realize an action has been started against him.