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View Full Version : Another bump in the night question: Ammo Capacity Vs Caliber


CMichael
January 4, 2012, 02:42 PM
I am pondering which handgun to take in case of a "bump" in the night I want to investigate.

I have a Glock 34, which has 17 for the mag, or I have a few .45s with a capacity of around 8.

What should I go for:

More ammo capacity or higher caliber?

Thank you,

Don P
January 4, 2012, 03:00 PM
First thing I would be concerned with is hitting what I have aimed at. If that can't or isn't accomplished then caliber is a moot point. Both will work and do the job "IF" you do your job

Buzzcook
January 4, 2012, 03:19 PM
If you're concerned about power, get a .50mag. If you're concerned about capacity, why stop at 17 when there are handguns with 30 rounds?

Glenn E. Meyer
January 4, 2012, 03:26 PM
Got this from the Insights mailing list from John Holschen.


Quote:

When it comes to preparing for individual security….
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

TheBigO
January 4, 2012, 03:28 PM
I am a capacity guy- improvments in ammo have closed the gap between 9mm and 45acp enough for my liking.

JerryM
January 4, 2012, 03:33 PM
For a bump in the night I cannot imagine needing more than 6-8 rounds. I have never heard of an extended gunfight inside a house that was occupied. I guess a drug house might be an exception, but when shooting started I am persuaded the BG would want to put distance between himself and the house.
Jerry

mo84
January 4, 2012, 03:37 PM
I would rather have to many bullets than not enough when I need them. Go with the high cap.

Hook686
January 4, 2012, 04:13 PM
Forgo the gun. Keep the house dark and go out with a knife.

Willie Lowman
January 4, 2012, 04:17 PM
What should I go for

The one you shoot the best.

myshoulderissore
January 4, 2012, 04:41 PM
Like most threads similar to this, I believe a home invasion is unlikely to need an armory to defend against. I'd be out there with either my .357 snubbie (6 shot) or my shotgun (7 shot), even with a compact .38 5 round I honestly would feel I had more than adequate firepower. It's more what you will do than what you have power or capacity-wise.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 4, 2012, 05:21 PM
More ammo capacity or higher caliber?

You know, I once had the privilege to listen to a discussion between a cop and a military guy who had both been in multiple gunfights with pistols and shot and killed people.

The cop liked higher caliber. The military guy liked higher capacity. They weren't able to agree on the point other than to acknowledge that choice of pistol/caliber was way down the list of things that contributed to a successful outcome.

Deaf Smith
January 4, 2012, 06:37 PM
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

Amen Glenn!

But what is the person who thinks 'strategy'?

As in avoiding or making situations one is presented with daily favor oneself before any fight?

See I'm a B.H. Liddell Hart guy;-)

As for the capacity .vs. caliber or power or whatever, use the largest caliber you can control well and spend more time on making whatever is in the weapon do what is needed and don't worry so much on capacity.

Deaf

Glenn E. Meyer
January 4, 2012, 07:30 PM
Me too! I studied Lidell Hart in Military History from a Major General/PhD who was head of the Hungarian Military Academy and had to flee from the Communistis in 1956.

Great prof and course!

kinggabby
January 4, 2012, 10:00 PM
I would personally go with what ever is closest to me at the time be it my SW9VE or my 7 shot 357 revolver. The way I figure it is that at a time like that you don't have a lot of time to decide. Just grab and go. Then run and gun .

Catfishman
January 4, 2012, 10:10 PM
When it comes to preparing for individual security….
Quote:
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

I would expect an expert to consider all 3 equally. Any one of the 3 relies on the other 2.

Doc TH
January 4, 2012, 10:16 PM
With handguns, shot placement is the most important factor in stopping a gunfight, as has been shown by many large metropolitan police databases of shootings.
If you feel better with high capacity, that's fine, but I can't imagine needing 17 rounds in a home invasion scenario.

dyl
January 4, 2012, 10:17 PM
An interpretation of that parable:

Amateurs think of equipment because they don't have any yet!
After the new gun smell wears off and dry firing/loading the empty mag into an empty gun/dropping the slide gets boring the thought occurs.. "maybe I should try shoot this thing. Let me find some boo-lits for my clip"
And experts: well, the arthritis puts a little damper on things. But my mind and my mouth still move pretty fast! :D

(note: NOT an expert...yet)

orionengnr
January 4, 2012, 10:33 PM
Which do you shoot best?

Deaf Smith
January 4, 2012, 10:52 PM
I would expect an expert to consider all 3 equally. Any one of the 3 relies on the other 2.

Yea, but Bill Hickok still used cap-n-ball .36s while everyone else migrated to cartridge guns and he still shot those guns one handed and really really well. And I guess you could say he was a expert.

By the time you are an 'expert' you will have discovered most serviceable fighting weapons will do and all those bells and whistles don't matter all that much. And you've figured out one does not need a huge variety of techniques as long as you are skilled (study Miyamoto Musashi and see why).

Then tactics and strategy will be more of your concern.

Deaf

C0untZer0
January 5, 2012, 12:48 AM
I can understand if people are on a budget and they need a gun to be their Self Defense, HD/nightstand gun/car gun, hiking camping - everything gun.

But if people have money, and they're serious about home defense, and they're not just buying firearms because they're fun and cool - somewhere along the line they should have picked up a shotgun instead of buying yet another handgun.

If someone breaks into my house I don't want to be exchanging fire with them to the tune of double digit shots.

A shotgun is a way way more effective weapon. Anyway you look at it, its way more effective. When you're using shot you're creating multiple wound channels, and if you're of the philosophy of big 45 and 50 caliber projectiles are good - then a 70 caliber slug shoul dbe better.

So instead of asking "Which should I be using, a 44 Magnum with 6 rounds or the Five Seven with 20 rounds?" The question should be "Should I use 00 Buck, #1 Buck, #4 Buck ???"

MikeNice81
January 5, 2012, 04:56 AM
shotgun is a way way more effective weapon. Anyway you look at it, its way more effective.

Unless the person can't handle it well. My wife can handle my 9mm very well. A shotgun, not so much. I rather her have 6 shots of 9mm than 6 shots of 12 gauge 00 buck. The fact that the 9mm has 16 shots is just a great bonus.

Sometimes what the person can and will practice with is the most important consideration.

Nnobby45
January 5, 2012, 05:56 AM
What should I go for:

More ammo capacity or higher caliber?


In the end, it's a choice we all have to make. I'll carry a P228 in 9mm, a P229 .40, or a P220 in .45.

What I carry that day is what's sitting on my night stand.

Which isn't all that far from my 870.:D

C0untZer0
January 5, 2012, 01:55 PM
I understand everyone has different circumstances but generally speaking, instead of shooting someone sixteen times over the course of 3 or 4 seconds, I'd rather shoot them sixteen times all at once.

CMichael
January 5, 2012, 03:07 PM
Quote:
When it comes to preparing for individual security….
Quote:
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.

I would expect an expert to consider all 3 equally. Any one of the 3 relies on the other 2.

I too think that an expert needs to be equally concerned about all three.

What good is tactics if you don't have equipment or techniques?

I any case that is outside the scope of this thread.

This thread is about capacity vs caliber.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 5, 2012, 03:44 PM
The answer is in the concept of explanatory variance. Expert opinion (or whatever) would indicate that there is little difference between a quality 9mm round or 45 ACP. Thus, that is a moot point. It's fun to argue on the Internet though.

Someone will propose that the shotgun is the ultimate weapon. Some will say use an AR as easier to use than a shotgun.

But, without a reasonable knowledge and skill base to use any efficacious weapon, you are at a disadvantage. Esp. if you contemplate negotiating around your house at night.

There is little useful variance in your two choices. It probably makes NO difference in a reasonable scenario. If it were more intense than can be handled with a handgun - then you do need the AR.

Thus, that's why folks like Holschen tear their hair out (well, he can't do much of that - sorry - :D), when folks in a class just want to talk about ammo and type of gun.

You could handle most situations with a SW Model 10 and a good 38 SPL. If it is more intense, you should know what you are doing. Having a custom 1911 vs. a Glock 34 doesn't matter.

JerryM
January 5, 2012, 04:55 PM
Can anyone give an example of a homeowner needing more rounds than the gun held in a break-in?
I don't buy the argument of "I had rather have too many...." If one feels that way why not a hundred rounds and maybe a shotgun to boot?

Jerry

zincwarrior
January 5, 2012, 05:01 PM
To the OP, what do YOU in your gut feel is more important?

We told you to do that! You can thank us later. ;)

markj
January 5, 2012, 05:06 PM
What should I go for:

More ammo capacity or higher caliber?



How about the one you can hit the target with. Amount of shot and caliber mean nothing if you miss every time, focus on shot placement that is important. Dont belive me? ask my cousin shot 3 times at close range with a 357. He is walking around today. My Uncle shot in nam 11 times, is still walking around, altho slowly.

I was shot once, and am still walking around. Now if he had better aim? wouldnt be here today.

zincwarrior
January 5, 2012, 05:13 PM
Moral of the story: stay away from MarkJ. His family draws fire like my mailbox draws bills. :eek:

markj
January 5, 2012, 05:58 PM
Moral of the story: stay away from MarkJ. His family draws fire like my mailbox draws bills.

Most of us are LEO or military. Nephew just got back from afgan he was in some heavy stuff but wasnt hit, his buddy and sgt were killed tho.

MikeNice81
January 5, 2012, 07:33 PM
You could always split the difference and get a high-cap .40 S&W. Better yet you could get the best of all worlds and get a Para Ordnance 14.45. A 14+1 capacity .45ACP ends the deabate, if you can grip it.

Willie Lowman
January 5, 2012, 08:20 PM
http://www.topglock.com/DisplayPic.aspx?PIC=279627

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5243/5280124707_842e507960_m.jpg

Just a few other options... You know, for the fire power.

jreXD9
January 5, 2012, 08:57 PM
I'm going w/capacity, too. I figure 20 rds from my XDm9 Compact 3.8 should be enough. If not, I've got 26 more close by.

CMichael
January 5, 2012, 09:04 PM
To the OP, what do YOU in your gut feel is more important?

We told you to do that! You can thank us later.

I'm torn.

I guess I am leaning toward ammo capacity.

When we are at the range we are usually shooting at stationary targets, and we take our time aiming.

I think it would be much harder to hit a moving target, under extremely high stress, perhaps in low light conditions.

I've shot a lot at the range, but have never really trained for a true real life situation.

I think unless you have seen actual gun combat few people have.

You probably can never have too much ammo.

I also have an AR, and pump shotgun.

The pump shotgun really isn't ideal if I miss and I need to get off another shot. It does have an extended 8 shell magazine however.

The AR is a possibility, but I think it would be dangerous to go investigating with a long gun, because it can be taken away easier, and as the retired police officer said, it would be harder to open doors and move things.

However, it would be nice having 30 rounds in a magazine of 5.56 going about 3,000 fps. Those are extremely powerful rounds. Perhaps too powerful...


So I guess I am leaning toward my Glock 17 with the light, strobbing light, and laser.

I shoot very well with all my guns. However, I am no longer proficient with the shotgun. However, I can be.

Hibby
January 6, 2012, 07:46 AM
Every one of us knows the sound that a pump shotgun makes when a round is being chambered. Whether it is due to movie trailers or real life experience, it is an unmistakable sound.

I would argue that the simple act of cycling the shotgun open and closed again (without any effort to be quiet) will clear a home of intruders without ever resorting to squeezing the trigger. It is first line of defense in our home.

However, the intruder that is not wise enough to understand may need further education. For that reason, there is always a full magazine of home defense rounds in the gun.

Since my wife prefers the pistol-grip pump shotgun with green laser (because it compliments her black silk nightie), I have the backup Sig226 .40 in the Gunvault beside the bed. I am forbidden to shoot first.

federali
January 6, 2012, 08:17 AM
In order of importance: Mindset, Judgment, tactics, marksmanship, firearm.

We must all sleep and thus have no choice but be in Condition White from six to eight hours nightly. The intruder, on the other hand, is fully awake, alert and knows he's entering a hot situation.

To level the playing field, you need some form of early warning such as burglar alarms, a dog or a house that's really tough to break into without raising a racket. You need to go from a dead sleep to fully awake as quickly as possible.

Tactical advantage lies with the person who remains, armed, ready, hidden and motionless. Let the danger come to you if you have that option. Conduct a sweep and you become the prey.

You can buy a 13 round mag for an S&W M&P 45 if legal in your state. Para-ordinance also makes some high-cap .45s. Differences in caliber performance are greatly exaggerated and statistics on "one shot stops" are separated by mere percentage points.

And yes, it ain't Hollywood. Any armed resistance on your part will have intruders fleeing, not trading lead with you. An 8-shot .45 should be more than enough, assuming you can hit what you're aiming at.

Pianoguy
January 6, 2012, 09:06 AM
For home defense I'd rather have a shotgun around and a handgun for BU. If only a handgun, I'd go with one that has higher capcity that I have confidence in and can shoot well. Shot placement is fine and will do the job whether it's 380 or 45 but you never know how many people are there to begin with. I'd rather have extra bullets in case someone comes back with his/her friends. 8 rounds can go mighty fast in a stressful situation. Even on the street what with the gangs you could meet, you could really want those extra rounds no matter how well you shoot. And chances are for a lot of people they will be able to shoot a 9mm better than a 45 if nothing else than from being able to practice more.

Hibby
January 6, 2012, 09:46 AM
There is a great video series called "The Best Defense" by Midway USA that ran on the Outdoor Channel. During Season One, one of the shows was Home Defense Part 2 and they demonstrated the effect of .45 ACP handgun vs. 9mm handgun vs. AR-15 rifle vs. 12 gauge shotgun (using 00 Buckshot) vs. 12 gauge shotgun (using birdshot).

The hands-down winner was the 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot. Because we're talking about home defense, one of the most significant factors was the amount of penetration into and through structures that are behind the intended target.

tirod
January 6, 2012, 10:33 AM
Bump in the night? First, a light, 60 lumens minimum, with a push clicky that makes momentary contact before tripping. You have a real need to determine what is out there to positively identify it. Teenagers coming home from closing shift, your neighbor wandering around a bit drunk and misoriented, whatever.

Choice of gun and caliber should be what you probably already carry for CCW. You practice with it and know that trigger better than any other, right? No fumbling with a rarely used safety or awkward grip.

Of course, it's already too late to ask yourself what you failed to do and why someone is now highly attracted to your property and person. Goes to most home invasions being 1) I stole drugs from my druglord, 2) Took his girlfriend. The minority left over is simply being what appears to be a victim. The young lady in Oklahoma had that working against her.

Overpenetration of bulllets is a genuine concern, but it works both ways: American frame home construction is flimsy, and undergunning yourself to prevent a unlikely chance of hitting the innocent needs to be weighed against the very real need to shoot the BG just the other side of the interior wall.

Have you actually mapped out the shooting lanes in your house and know which one endangers the family? Secondly, got to ask, why wasn't the BG DRT just inside the broken entrance? Someone's beating down the door, where else should you be with a light and gun? Telling them you'll shoot them while talking to 911.

Due diligence in setting up exterior security and not being an attractive nuisance to your neighborhood goes a long way in prevention.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 6, 2012, 11:52 AM
The hands-down winner was the 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot.

You might want to search the Shotgun forum for that discussion; but I don't think that was the point the episode was trying to convey. IIRC, the host of the episode was Rob Pincus and he has discussed the limitations of birdshot and that particular episode in the forums here before.

As tirod pointed out:

Overpenetration of bulllets is a genuine concern, but it works both ways: American frame home construction is flimsy, and undergunning yourself to prevent a unlikely chance of hitting the innocent needs to be weighed against the very real need to shoot the BG just the other side of the interior wall.

I just add that if it is stopped by a single interior wall in a typical frame home (two sheets of 5/8" drywall with no insulation between), it will probably be marginal on a 100lb+ mammal that represents an immediate threat of death or serious injury.

F. Guffey
January 6, 2012, 12:00 PM
The last bump in the night came when I was out of town, my wife and her big dog heard the same sound, she went down the hall ,nothing, she went across the den, nothing, she went through the kitchen, again nothing, and I will remind you, she took her big dog, no gun and for that I am thankful, then she opened the dining room door, reached around and turned on the light and there it was, something only she could see, I am so glad I was not there, DARTH VADER!!! against a white wall, she, as would be expected, was horrified, until she noticed her big dog, ready but for what, she did not know. I called the next day, she claimed I never told her about DARTH, I suggested her big dog was listening because he knew it was there.

The conversation started with “DARTH VADER” knowing something went very badly I said “I told you about DARTH VADER”! and she said, “NOT a problem, he is now a sailor cat” Long story that goes all the way back to being poor, so I begged her to retrieve him and avoid eye contact until I got home. And now? he stands between a wall and a triple dresser.

F. Guffey

K1500
January 6, 2012, 12:09 PM
Since no one has stated the obvious, buy a Glock 20 in 10mm and get both! :D

tet4
January 6, 2012, 12:19 PM
shotgun is a way way more effective weapon. Anyway you look at it, its way more effective.

I personally came to the conclusion that a shotgun was actually a pretty bad choice for me. I have a small child and if something were to happen, my first responsibility is to find her and get her to safety. That means probably picking her up. I honestly can't fire a shotgun properly with a child in my arms. I don't think anyone on this board can either.

Hence I have revolvers because I may not have another hand to clear a misfire and chances are that I won't be wearing a belt either.

Is that a bad choice?

I don't know. (Actually, I know that it's a good choice). However, someone asked if anyone ever needed more than a few rounds in a home invasion. If you read Lessons from Armed America, one of the stories is about an ex-boyfriend stalker that breaks in, and I believe there may have been a reload or two before it all finished, and I think that he was using a hi-cap pistol to begin with.

So, instead of pitting two arbitrary things together, I would suggest looking at the entire picture, and actually trying out the scenarios to see where things may fail. You might come to the conclusion, that, for your situation, it may be best to keep two 45s at the ready instead of 1 hi cap 9mm. Nothing wrong with that - you just have to come up with the right solution for your situation.

rem44m
January 6, 2012, 12:55 PM
A shotgun.

Plus racking a good pump shotgun will most likely be so effective by the time you get the breached area of the house there will be a thief size hole through the wall :D

So you might want to pick up some spackle with your buck shot ;)

C0untZer0
January 6, 2012, 12:57 PM
I am pondering which handgun to take in case of a "bump" in the night I want to investigate.

I guess this gets into house clearing, and generally speaking, house clearing is not recomended. If you have a big dog that might be different, but in generally trying to clear your house is a bad idea as has been talked about in other threads.

Everyone's house is different, If someone is going to clear their house and it necesitates going around corners and through dorways then maybe a shotgun is not the best tool to do that with although some people who are really good with a shotgun, and know shotgun retention techniques well will argue that they can go around tight corners and through doorways in such a way that bad guys are not going to be able to disarm them.


I have three kids. If there were a shootout in my home I would worry about the BG rounds going into their bedroom. I wonder about going to their room first and trying to put them into a safer area, but I also worry about the BG kicking in their door while I'm trying to do that - I would be at a disadvantage because I would have a kid in my arms where as the other alternative is for me to place myself in the hall between invaders and the kid's room.

If I am between their room and the home invaders, I want to be using something that has the highest likelyhood of completely stopping them - given that I hit the target (them). So whether it is a #1 Buck out of a shotgun, 10mm, .45 +P or a 44magnum - I want the first pull of the trigger to have maximum effect and I would choose that over having additional rounds.

output
January 6, 2012, 01:09 PM
Can anyone give an example of a homeowner needing more rounds than the gun held in a break-in?

I am not aware of such an example off the top of my head to be honest. If we are only looking at statistics it would seem as if you have a sound argument. At least at first glance.

Have you ever encountered a situation where a homeowner defended his/her home unsuccessfully because their magazine(s) capacity were too high? I have not. Having more rounds (at least in my mind) means that I will ultimately have more options. Note: I am not saying you can substitute training and proper mindset with extra bullets.

There have been many document home invasions where innocent citizens have been killed (in their own home) because their homes were mistakenly hit/invaded instead of a drug house or meth lab. Homes are mistakenly invaded all the time and more often than not there are multiple assailants/attackers.

Having extra ammunition is not a bad idea IMO. I have never been much for arguing caliber but as Rob Leatham has said “I either want big, or a lot of.” I like a lot of ;) You are going to have to go with what makes you feel the most comfortable based on your own level of training though.

nate45
January 6, 2012, 01:18 PM
I would argue that the simple act of cycling the shotgun open and closed again (without any effort to be quiet) will clear a home of intruders without ever resorting to squeezing the trigger. It is first line of defense in our home.

If you want noise to be your first line of home defense get a dog, or an alarm.

The myth of the racking shotgun slide being an effective tactic was dispelled many moons ago. It is well known to be tactically unsound. The chamber of your defensive shotgun should be loaded.

Birdshot is not recommended for defense, it severely under penetrates.

Lets review, Birdshot good for defense? = no, Racking the shotgun to scare intruders? = no.

kinggabby
January 6, 2012, 01:37 PM
In my place a shotgun would be nice for hunting ( if I hunted ) or just target practice. Because I have a almost 3 yr old special needs child that likes to climb out of bed and makes noise and and is just a Tasmanian Devil so to speak. I would be afraid of the shot spreading out and striking her in the process of shooting at a BG. So I would rather use my revolver or my semi since I would have more control of where the bullet is going.

MLeake
January 6, 2012, 01:46 PM
JerryM, one example that leaps to mind immediately... Byrd Billings, near Pensacola, Florida.

Billings didn't have a gun, so it's not a perfect analogy. However, let's say for argument's sake he had a S&W 66. His house was hit by a half-dozen armed, masked gunmen.

Whether any gun would have been enough is questionable. However, if he had been able to mount a defense, he probably would have needed more than six rounds.

Make the weapon an M&P with 17+1... might be enough rounds, but what if the shooter has a stoppage? A spare magazine is good, when one is clearing stoppages.

Just because the average event doesn't require more than a cylinder doesn't mean that every event will not.

Colvin
January 6, 2012, 01:50 PM
9mm +P JHPs are potent enough, I think. People don't realize that, if f untrained, combat is extremely difficult and that their fine motoring skills are all but gone. Capacity > caliber.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 6, 2012, 02:01 PM
I believe Chris Bird writes of an incident in one of his books where a lady ran an ongoing gun battle through her garden with a 12ga double and multiple intruders (due to vegetation, she apparently thought she was only firing at one guy who kept moving and kept in the fight through multiple reloads and was successful).

C0untZer0
January 6, 2012, 05:31 PM
The story you are referencing is about Barbara Thompson in Fort Worth, TX.


Chris's daughters live in Illinois, and one lives in Chicago.

His bio at Privateer Publications says "He is particularly incensed that Katy who lives in Chicago is unable to own a handgun legally for protection."

He must have been happy when the Supreme Court over turned Chicago's gun ban.

But he can still be incensed that his daughters are unable to carry handguns legally for protection.

3kgt2nv
January 8, 2012, 03:17 PM
I personally would choose caliber. my bump gun is a 1911 that i have shot over 25000 rounds thru in every type of excersize and competition i can think off so that if it does become necessary to shoot i can do it from any angle or postion without having to first assume the correct stance and use two hands for control.

i can fire right or left handed with both eyes open with muscle memory putting the gun on target within seconds of raising the gun from a hoster even faster if already drawn.

where we cannot practice shoot at people we can practice shooting moving objects and doing so accurately and consistantly is not easy. if your not willing to practice this type of shooting (idpa or other leagues) capacity is useless as your hit percentage will be dismal at best when adrenalin and stress are factored in.

think of police shootings where 15 or 30 rounds are fired and they only score one or three hits.

If your going to put your life on the line to defend yourself and family you should have enough dedication to properly train yourself for that moment when it is necessary.

I have shot many different formats and with many different style firearms. Its all about ability to hit what your shooting at when you pull the trigger.

perfect example is people that get the 20+ dollar ultra high end hollow points for home defense or carry but only practice with the cheapest stuff they can buy. how do you know how that high end stuff shoots and how it responds if you dont practice with it.

MLeake
January 8, 2012, 03:22 PM
Sounds good, but how often have you shot after somebody has severely startled you; or after you've been struck, stabbed, or shot; or after your heart rate is severely elevated?

There are some variables that are hard to train for.

Here's one I'd like to do:

Start with dummy guns, and a fit training partner. Physically grapple for weapon control. Do this several times, until breathing is really ragged. Some physical pain might even be good.

Now go to the bench, pick up live weapons, and immediately put a timed double tap on target.

3kgt2nv
January 8, 2012, 03:38 PM
true but in a bump in the night situation hopefully you are not waking up to the intruder being right on top of you.

personally I have 2 full size dobermans 1 is 98 pounds the other 92 pounds that are normally quiet. one bark in the night has me out of bed and alert. the way my home is layed out my family is secure on the floor above mine so unless they are in the house its more of a controlling the situation and at worst stopping the intrusion.

now in a grappling situation it is true that it might turn out that you loose the firearm and or become injured in the struggle or surprised before you have the ability to arm yourself. this is where the strategy of sweeping the house becomes dangerous. once you venture from a position of safety you give up the security of knowing what is in your immediate surrounding.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z156/3kgt2nv/pets/20465_1318515652558_1520763184_30829850_1890361_n.jpg

this is the best tactical accessory for my house that i have ever had.

Frank Ettin
January 8, 2012, 04:17 PM
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics. This is an important and basic truth. It's sometimes phrased: mindset, skill set; toolset, in that order.

We have a way of looking at things as a hardware matter. After all, equipment and tools are fun. But a lot of things really come down to a matter of software.

Pretty much any quality, reliable gun, in a caliber of consequence and that you can manage, will do the job if you practice and train so that you know how to do the job. No type of gun will make up for not knowing how to do the job.

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

Kevin Rohrer
January 8, 2012, 05:01 PM
Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

3kgt2nv
January 8, 2012, 05:05 PM
Any caliber that arts with a '4' or more is better. After you get the gun, get some quality training with it.

so by this i should discount
9mm, 9mm+p 9mm p++
38special, 38 special+p
.357
.357 sig
22 microjet
etc etc etc

any gun can be used defensively if you know proper use and the limitations of the caliber.

MLeake
January 8, 2012, 05:30 PM
3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

3kgt2nv
January 8, 2012, 05:41 PM
3kgt2nv, whether you end up actually grappling a BG isn't my point. My point is that you are assuming that under a full adrenaline dump, you will perform like you do at the range.

My point is that inducing such an adrenaline dump immediately prior to shooting might be an eye opener for many people.

And, frankly, some aggressive weapon retention training is not a bad way to get some adrenaline flowing.

I understand what you were talking about with the adrenalin and I also am aware that there is a large percentage of the gun owning world that if they got the drop on the "bad guy" would rather have them get out of their house via quickest way or police vs pulling the trigger.

well it is true you can never train for everything you can train as much as possible so that if it does come time to use your gun you dont have to think about firing it and on muscle memory and training will be able to do so.

take a fencing class and tell me how much time you have to think with the adrenalin going. you dont you react based on how you were trained and your skill. same with a firearm.

But yes adrenalin can cause a wide variety of reactions, fear, panic, the fight or flight response, shakes, tunnel vision, etc.

Frank Ettin
January 8, 2012, 07:53 PM
...After you get the gun, get some quality training with it. An excellent idea. And something you might get from training is an understanding that going to investigate a "bump in the night" might not always be the best idea and that sometimes there are better ways to deal with the situation.

Justice06RR
January 8, 2012, 08:12 PM
For a bump in the night I cannot imagine needing more than 6-8 rounds. I have never heard of an extended gunfight inside a house that was occupied. I guess a drug house might be an exception, but when shooting started I am persuaded the BG would want to put distance between himself and the house.
Jerry

That may be so, but you never know how many intruders/BG's are trying to enter your residence. it could be one, or 3. Most of your typical shooters, including myself are not experts so the more rounds the better. You would have to consider the possibility of missing the first 2-3 shots depending on the situation.

If you live in Miami, Atlanta, Philly, or LA, you better rethink on the ammo capacity more than caliber IMO. Yes there are gangs and druggies that work in groups. My ex's house was robbed by at least 2 people in broad daylight. Good thing she was at work.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 8, 2012, 09:16 PM
In TX, after the fires, gangs of looters came to some houses. I posted a story about it. No shots fired as the teenage girl's true grit scared them off. However, the point is that you can get multiple bad guys.

The average crime doesn't mean that YOU will always be faced with the average crime.

Deaf Smith
January 8, 2012, 10:10 PM
The average crime doesn't mean that YOU will always be faced with the average crime.

And 'average' means 50 percent were ABOVE that stat.

I'm not a cop or anything like that but I've held one guy at gun point for breaking into my parents house, with another guy chased down a purse snatcher in the Virgin Islands, twice have given first aid to car wreck victims, seen car roll overs right in front of me, a broadside collision right in front of me, two cars run off the road (one hitting a tree), drove several peoples cars out of a flood that was above the floorboards of their cars, and other such oddities.

Now is that average for a geek programmer?

Guys don't plan on 'average', ever. Carry a REAL good first aid kit in your cars, good fire extinguisher, as well as your favorite roscoe or two. And then get some CPR/first aid training besides self defense training (I'm in my companies ERT Hazmat team just so I could get alot of free training.)

Skip this .45 .vs. 9mm or ammo capacity vs. Caliber or whatever debates.

Prepare for interesting times and if they are no so interesting, well that's ok, but just don't assume your life will be 'average' or the problems you face will be 'average'.

Deaf

Nitesites
January 8, 2012, 10:36 PM
One is none, two is one, three is some.

C0untZer0
January 9, 2012, 01:03 AM
The bump in the night scenario is different from natural disasters.

I think it's really challenging when someone has a very limited budget and they need 1 firearm to do everything. Night-stand, carry, truck gun, everything gun.

But I still think a shotgun is a better tool to fend off looters after a natural disaster than a high-cap pistol. But even so - I would want nine rounds not five.

A rifle of some kind may be better yet... but probably not the best first choice for when something goes bump (or crash) in the night.

Denezin
January 9, 2012, 03:29 AM
For my B.I.T.N. gun its a single shot h&r pardoner 12g sawn to 18 3/4 inches and has a limb saver recoil pad. and ammo is number 4 3 in mag buckshot. best 140 bucks ever spent for HD gun.

Kevin Rohrer
January 9, 2012, 09:36 AM
any gun can be used defensively if you know proper use and the limitations of the caliber.

That's why I suggested taking the caliber limitation out of that equation.

ltc444
January 9, 2012, 01:12 PM
The key to winning is
1) planning. Have a plan and execute it.
2) practice the plan.
3) Train with your weapons
4) Have a will to survive.
5) Plan for the aftermath. (Good Lawyer)

These points are not in order of importance.

MLeake
January 9, 2012, 01:48 PM
Those are all valid keys, ltc444.

Mindset is most important, I am inclined to agree.

However, mindset, tactics, and awareness will only help so much when you have a 5 shot revolver and multiple, armed intruders break in.

Hardware may be the least important consideration, but that does not make it an unimportant consideration.

C0untZer0
January 9, 2012, 02:21 PM
One thing that I was curious about concerning Sarah McKinley shooting a home invader in Oklahoma recently is that she had to sell off most of her deceased husbands guns to pay for his funeral, she kept a shotgun and one pistol.

She had trained with the pistol and according to her, she knew how to shoot it. She had only fired the shotgun once and it was a number of years before the incident. She claimed that she wasn't even sure that the shotgun would fire but when Martin began pounding on the door - she got her shotgun and held it at the ready (the pistol was beside her because as she said she wasn't even sure the shotgun would fire).

The shotgun did it's job, as did she in aiming it. I wish I knew what model shotgun, single shot break open? auto-loader? I don't know. I also don't know what size shot she was using but the shot hit Martin just behind and above the ear.

I wish I could find out why she chose the shotgun as the primary instead of the pistol.

Using a weapon you're not sure of is certainly questionable tactics but it almost seemed like she intuitively knew that the shotgun was the most powerful thing she had at her disposal and that's what she gravitated to.

Nanuk
January 9, 2012, 06:38 PM
Beside my bed is my 870 12 gauge with 7 slugs in the tube and six on the side, 2 bright flashlights. On the head board is either my Glock 40 or My Kimber 45.

After 32 years of LE/Military I want the guns I know will work, will stop anything I need to worry about.

I live in the country alone with my wife and critters, over penetration is not a concern.

ngragg
January 13, 2012, 02:04 PM

Rifleman 173
January 13, 2012, 06:26 PM
Get some range time in for yourself. Learn to shoot 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. This is an excellent shooting strategy called The Mozambique Shooting Scenario. No matter what caliber of gun you have, 2 in the chest and 1 to the head ruins the bad guy's day. Spread out the chest shots about a hand's width apart and remember to allow for time for shock to set into place just to be safe. Repeat as needed until the bad guy stops what he is doing.

Camar
January 14, 2012, 09:59 AM
From experience a .38 Spl. will do the job.;)




'

batmann
January 24, 2012, 08:37 AM
Against my better judgement I will jump into this with both feet. The OP asked which way to go, caliber or capacity. My HD gun is a Glock 22 with a Streamlight TLR-3. IMHO, the weapon you choose should be one you are the most familiar with and can shoot well. Bells and whistles are great on the range, but when the moment comes, that is not the time to remember, do I grab my .45 or my 9MM------
In the middle of a crisis is not the time to grab a handgun you need to remember which one you have and fumble with a safety that may or not be there. Keep it simple and settle one ONE. Take that one and practice until the handling is second nature.
If you mount a weapon light, like I have, shoot it with the light. It does change the balance some, but once you understand the reason for the light, it too will become second nature.
Mindset and tactics are far more important than capacity or even caliber.

ScotchMan
January 24, 2012, 02:41 PM
No one likes to think about the legal aftermath of these things. Let me summarize a few of my beliefs:

-If you go sweeping your house, you are in a weaker legal position than if you get behind cover in the bedroom and call 911. If you have kids to secure, have a plan where you all meet in the same place, then get behind cover and call 911. Let the police do the sweeping and shooting, you shooting is a last resort.
-Shotguns are less legally taboo than handguns. Anyone can buy a shotgun without a permit. I'd rather defend shotgun use than handgun use (but would certainly use whatever was a better tactical choice, regardless of legal outcomes). This is just an opinion, I feel like a DA would be less likely to take a questionable lethal force case if a long arm was used vs. a politically scary handgun.
-Firing one shot is better than firing many. Fire until the threat is neutralized, but techniques such as "two to the chest and one to the head" suggest intent to kill and not intent to neutralize the threat. For all you know, the threat would have been neutralized but not dead after one, or two shots.
-Use a flashlight. There's no reason not to (you can mount it on your handgun OR shotgun, or use it independently of a handgun). It is negligent to not identify your target before opening fire.
-Calling 911 should be your TOP priority unless your life is in immediate danger. The first person to call 911 wins a huge battle; you don't want the intruder who you just shot to be the one calling 911 on YOU. If you call 911 before you shoot anyone, you demonstrate that you did not want to use lethal force and did everything you could to avoid doing so (the police weren't here yet). Be sure to identify yourself so when the police come in guns hot they know which guy with a gun is the good guy.

Kathy Jackson (pax) said in her book (and I'm paraphrasing), the only real victory here is if you escape with your entire life intact, and that is not achieved if you spend it in prison or even a large part of it in court.

manta49
January 24, 2012, 03:21 PM
I have a cz 75 19 rd cap and a para-ordnance 14-45. So either would do. But i would go for hi capacity every time. A lot on the forum in debates about carrying in con 1 say that the second it takes to put a round in the chamber could cost you your life. So they would have to agree that the second or a lot more in most cases, it takes to load another mag could cost your life.

jimbob86
January 24, 2012, 03:25 PM
Both.

Belt fed HMG.

:D

Too Much?

Saiga 12?

Boncrayon
January 24, 2012, 03:38 PM
Tactical light to blind and the first two laser shots of 9mm Horady Critical Defence or above. 'Nuf Said. 17 rounds is for a street fight. I thought you said home defense.

Boncrayon
January 24, 2012, 03:40 PM
the 911 and six extra rounds in enough, considering adrelgin and follow through. Think a 6 second window of time.

manta49
January 24, 2012, 04:45 PM
It also depends on the threat. One guy or four, one guy possibly then 1911 with eight rounds might be enough. But the fact is you don't how many and what they will be armed with. Take here for example if terrorists are coming to your house for your guns or for you they came well armed ak 47 ect and in numbers.

So what would i rather have a 9mm cz with 19 rds or a 1911 with 8 rds i think the answer is obvious.

jimbob86
January 24, 2012, 04:50 PM
If multiple people show up at your house armed with assault rifles,looking to do you harm, and you answer with a pistol, you are up crap creek without a paddle.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 24, 2012, 05:14 PM
Not if Bruce Willis is in your canoe!

Anything new being said. Is the OP happy with the answers?

Just curious.

manta49
January 24, 2012, 05:20 PM
Today, 04:50 PM #83
jimbob86
Senior Member


Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 3,275 If multiple people show up at your house armed with assault rifles,looking to do you harm, and you answer with a pistol, you are up crap creek without a paddle.


Obviously i would rather have a GPMG pointed at the door but you have to make do with what you have.

My point you don't know how Many are coming to your door. So i think its a no -brainer that you want as much ammo in your pistol as possible. You don't want to be changing a mag during a fire fight if possible.

jimbob86
January 24, 2012, 05:31 PM
So i think its a no -brainer that you want as much ammo in your pistol as possible.

Faced with multiple people with AK's I think it's a no-brainer you'd want a long gun as opposed to a pistol..... a pump shotgun and buckshot at a minimum.

If I knew there were multiple folks armed with assault rifles coming to my house, I'd want running shoes, above all else.......

jimbob86
January 24, 2012, 06:34 PM
What I am saying is that If all I had was a pistol, I'd be complaining.

12 guage. Got that.

Nitesites
January 24, 2012, 07:21 PM
I hope this won't come across as impetuous but I have to ask why those who reason that extra ammo is unnecessary. And I can't see how one's choice of caliber would have anything to do with this choice either. Are you not considering the possibility of a failed mag? The possibility of missing? The idea of multiple assailants? Why wouldn't you want have an extra mag or two of your personal flavor as insurance against the unknown?

And I really dislike it when I read of statistics used as reasoning in such conversations. Statistics are for beans and for dead people. I say that because that is usually the only time statistics hold any value. Statistics, they don't get shot, stabbed, raped or slaughtered. Victims do though. And then those victims die and become more statistics.

omkhan
January 25, 2012, 03:44 AM
Around 8 years ago, a friend of mine was surprised by the presence of 3 robbers inside his house's outer perimeter at around 8 pm or so. All he had was a .22 short 8 shot revolver. He fired on them from window and emptied it, reloaded once by going inside the washroom but did not have to fir again as the robbers fled like hell while returning fire aimlessly. No 1 got hit.

Called his friend in LE and the police arrived in 10 mins or so. Of course they were long gone but it turned out that there were actually 7 robbers who fled from the scene.

The thing is if they were determined enough to get him, he would have been toasted as he did not have the capacity nor the caliber but in most home invasions the result may be the same as this one if the owner reacts on time.