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TheNocturnus
January 2, 2012, 03:35 AM
As the title says, my 17 year old cousin got carjacked yesterday. He was driving his new Kia sedan and was heading to a friends house. He stopped at a railroad crossing and noticed a car pull up and stop in front of him.

A guy rushed out and pointed a gun at him through the driver window and demanded he get out. The guy drove off in the Kia as did his accomplices. This happend mid day, with several other cars around. People were driving around him thinking there was an accident I guess. This happened in Leavenworth, Kansas.

I know this is the tactics and training forum and I could offer some insight as to what I would have done but I'm too angry about it. I really just wanted to put this out there to remind everyone that nowhere and no one is safe from the degenerates of society. Be safe out there people, keep your magazines loaded and be prepared to use them.

TexasJustice7
January 2, 2012, 04:55 AM
Nocturnus31: As the title says, my 17 year old cousin got carjacked yesterday. He was driving his new Kia sedan and was heading to a friends house. He stopped at a railroad crossing and noticed a car pull up and stop in front of him.

A guy rushed out and pointed a gun at him through the driver window and demanded he get out. The guy drove off in the Kia as did his accomplices. This happend mid day, with several other cars around. People were driving around him thinking there was an accident I guess. This happened in Leavenworth, Kansas.

Wow, thats a reminder why people need a gun permit and a gun. Unfortunately your cousin can't legally carry at age 17. If he had came out of his car with a gun, since surrender is not an option for me with my disabled daughter in the vehicle I would have shot him thru my car door with a 44 Spl Bulldog. Really would hate to have to replace a car door. But if he had his gun in his hand and was waving it, might not have been any other choice. What happened to your cousin is one of about 3 or 4 reasons that I went to the trouble to get a gun permit, the other reasons being home invasions and the Ft Hood jihadist attack. I drug my feet for years before reaching the conclusion that it was really necessary.

Glad your cousin is okay, and if he could surrender the vehicle without getting hurt, he did the right thing. If he was not close behind the next vehicle maybe he could have driven away. I figure your cousin will get his'
gun permit when he is of age after that experience.:eek:

ClayInTx
January 2, 2012, 06:06 AM
I’m licensed and I carry and still would have done as your cousin did; get out of the car and let the guy drive it away.

The vehicle is not yet made for which I would shoot someone and then have all the legal hassle to go through.

I can get another car in less than a day.

However, if I sensed I was personally in danger it’s a different story.

I cannot get another me.

Mobuck
January 2, 2012, 07:13 AM
So, ClayInTx, you wouldn't feel your life was "in danger" when the carjacker pointed a gun at you through the driver's window?
At that point it wasn't a carjacking or robbery, to me that was threatening my life and I would have acted in self defense. Any time someone points a gun at me, they have the potential to hurt or kill me and I don't take that lightly.

giaquir
January 2, 2012, 07:55 AM
One has to be reasonably convinced
if a carjacker is pointing a gun at you
that he has the upper hand already.
Trying to pull a weapon on him
would only escalate the danger, but
if you feel you can draw and fire
faster than he can pull the trigger.
Go for it!

JonathanZ
January 2, 2012, 08:20 AM
What giaquir said. I'm not pulling my gun to get shot trying to save my car.

TexasJustice7
January 2, 2012, 08:25 AM
giaquire: One has to be reasonably convinced
if a carjacker is pointing a gun at you
that he has the upper hand already.
Trying to pull a weapon on him
would only escalate the danger, but
if you feel you can draw and fire
faster than he can pull the trigger.
Go for it!

In my case if I were by myself, I would have to be very certain that I could draw before he got to the window and be ready for him, if I were by myself.
With my disabled daughter I have no confidence in a carjacker allowing me to get her out of the vehicle, so my only chance is to draw and shoot him.
As for paperwork, I don't care about that, part of the expense of having a permit and carrying a gun. My insurance covers the vehicle so if I thought
he would let me go, and I were by myself I would let him have it. I would hate to have to draw if he were already standing there with a gun on me.
Then running him over with the car might be another option if no gun was with me.:eek:

hogdogs
January 2, 2012, 08:28 AM
I can get another car in less than a day.
I cannot do so! I would also lose my job and begin to starve and live on the streets with 12 dogs...

I might exit the vehicle but as he enters I am unleashing maximum force on him immediately...

I would use florida's law that allows me to detain a violent felon by shooting him in the back as he climbs in...

I have the right to use any force up to lethal to prevent the violent felon from getting away from me...

GOD KNOWS I LOVE MY NATIVE FLORIDA!!!

Brent

jcsturgeon
January 2, 2012, 08:29 AM
He already did what the situation demanded and seems to be unharmed.

C0untZer0
January 2, 2012, 09:07 AM
My co-worker was at the drive-up window of a Whitecastle (burger joint), a man on foot ran over, and demanded my co-workers car. Because my co-worker was close to the wall, he wasn't able to open his door all the way and get out easily.

The carjacker thought he was moving too slowly so he shot him. The bullet severed his spine just above the waist paralyzing him. The car jacker shot him again for not moving, dragged him out of the car, onto the pavement, stepped on his body as he got in the car and even ran over my co-worker's leg as he drove away.

My co-worker was paralyzed from the waist down.

I don't exactly know how I'd react in a carjacking, but I know it's no garuantee that if I give the theif the car that I will be unharmed.

customaquatics
January 2, 2012, 09:24 AM
illinois same as me were was this at?

C0untZer0
January 2, 2012, 09:41 AM
He was on the South side of Chicago.

Double Naught Spy
January 2, 2012, 09:58 AM
I really just wanted to put this out there to remind everyone that nowhere and no one is safe from the degenerates of society. Be safe out there people, keep your magazines loaded and be prepared to use them.
I think I would prefer to use my gun if necessary. My magazines are less than great blunt force objects.

So, ClayInTx, you wouldn't feel your life was "in danger" when the carjacker pointed a gun at you through the driver's window?
At that point it wasn't a carjacking or robbery, to me that was threatening my life and I would have acted in self defense. Any time someone points a gun at me, they have the potential to hurt or kill me and I don't take that lightly.

You are right. Your life is in danger. Endangering your life or threat of endangering your life is the key behind most robberies. If you can't punch the accelerator to egress from the situation, what are you going to do? How quick is your driver side belted in the seat in a car with closed doors and windows draw and fire to hit the target? Are you going to be able to accomplish that task before the bad guy pulls his trigger?

There comes a point in many such situations when compliance is your best option for survival, such as when you are that far behind the curve.

I cannot do so! I would also lose my job and begin to starve and live on the streets with 12 dogs...

Wow, the totality of job security and not living on the street is depenedent on one sole vehicle? I think I would be spending more time trying to earn more money to build up some financial security and possibly buying a second vehicle. That is a rectifiable situation.

hogdogs
January 2, 2012, 10:02 AM
DNS, I am physically barely able to work the 22 hours at $9.50hr.

And I also live debt free so my buying power is limited...

Yes the loss of our sole vehicle would cause 2 people to lose their job.

Not everyone lives above the poverty level...

Brent

jrothWA
January 2, 2012, 10:07 AM
was going to school down @ Merchandise Mart. Had to work following morning and stopped in Indiana @ end of IN tool road for gas and kidney break.

Was 10:30ish PM, and waiting @ light, caught motion off right rear of miini-van.

Guy walking towards me, he was silhouetted by truck stop tower gas price lights and that illuminated my face and arm as I dropped it down to pick-up the SS J-frame. He left.

MTT TL
January 2, 2012, 10:08 AM
A number of armed thugs have the drop on me and want my car?

Guess what? They get the car. If I see a good opportunity I might take a chance but it would have to be pretty golden.

MrDontPlay
January 2, 2012, 10:18 AM
A guy coming for my car with a weapon justifies lethal force IMO. I I could grab my heat fast enough I'd make a good example out of him.

MLeake
January 2, 2012, 10:39 AM
Answer is: It depends.

Ideally, one would recognize the box-in maneuver when it commenced, and either use the car to immediately get out of there, or if the car were truly blocked then one could draw a weapon and lower the window.

(Edit: Really, if I were truly blocked, I'd want to exit the vehicle. Gun fights are never a good thing, but gun fights while stuck in a confined space are a worse thing.)

(In this scenario, if I had one handy, I'd pass a BUG to the wife if she were along.)

(Edit 2: I normally drive an Avalanche 4x4... I'm not as easily blocked as a guy in a Kia sedan would be. In auto or 4-High, I can hop over curbs and other minor obstructions. Drop into 4-Low, and I can move most blocking vehicles out of my way quite handily. Be aware of your non-firearm options. Drive defensively, and stop with maneuvering room fore and aft when you can - this makes it harder for people to box you in.)

The question is, at what point do you realize what has happened? At some point, you very well could be so far behind that resistance would have very poor odds.

Mr Dish
January 2, 2012, 10:49 AM
Its probably just me but....As I get older I seem to have less patience with people, esp those who are intent on reducing my level of safety or happiness.
I believe that every time we "allow" the bad guy to accomplish his bad guy goals (ie taking your hard won stuff), then it sends the message that they can do it to anyone they want. I nolonger care that they are someones son, or husband, or brother. They chose to do what they are doing and accept the risks that go along with their chosen profession.
So many people seem to think that if someone steals from you then its better to let them have it rather than pull your weapon and prevent him from doing so. The majority of the time, the bad guy is going to drop to his knees and wait for the police to arrive when he sees that you are armed. If he has a gun of his own and has pointed it at you....then shoot the bastard and get it over with.

...or maybe I;m just feeling alittle cranky today.....

MLeake
January 2, 2012, 10:56 AM
Mr Dish, I don't think anybody has said, "Hey, it's only a carjacking, don't hurt the poor guy."

I think what they have said is, "He already has the drop on you, and odds are he only wants the car. Are you really fast enough and good enough to draw and fire, without getting shot/killed/crippled/maimed? And if you are, are you willing to deal with the legal system, depending on where this goes down?"

I really don't think anybody has suggested coddling the carjacker.

TheNocturnus
January 2, 2012, 11:15 AM
Glad your cousin is okay, and if he could surrender the vehicle without getting hurt, he did the right thing. If he was not close behind the next vehicle maybe he could have driven away. I figure your cousin will get his'
gun permit when he is of age after that experience.

Thank you. You are the only one to say that so far. He may or may not decide to get a CCW permit, right now he is traumatized and rightfully so. Having a gun pointed at you certainly changes your life and your perspective of things.

kraigwy
January 2, 2012, 12:04 PM
I came in this world without anything, I'll leave this world without anything.

I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".

Having said that, I will not give up my gun, I carry it to protect my loved ones, as long as they aren't threatened, you can take my car, truck, or what ever. I'll keep my gun to assure property is all you get.

I've hitch hiked home before, I can do it again.

hangglider
January 2, 2012, 12:06 PM
Most excellent--a wise man indeed.

farmerboy
January 2, 2012, 01:22 PM
I also came into this world without nothing and will also leave without anything but to say I will not shoot anyone to keep them from stealing my property is, your gun is also property. Im not gonna let some scumbag take anything I worked hard to get or an item I got given to me. If I can somehow do something to get their eyes off me and on something else or get them distracted for a half a second, the last thing they'll see on earth is a bright flash.

TexasJustice7
January 2, 2012, 02:04 PM
Where is my situational awareness? I would never be in Chicago to begin with, in my case. Isn't this where all the criminals are on the endangered speices list and there is a law against law abiding citisens even having guns?
Seems like I remember some supreme court case involving Chicago and a black veteran, not even being allowed to have a gun his home!
:confused:

BlackFeather
January 2, 2012, 04:36 PM
Well, I'm glad you're cousin is okay, been through some similar stuff myself.

I have to wonder, why a Kia? They must have been running drugs or something because that car isn't worth much. Even parted out.

Opinated
January 2, 2012, 05:28 PM
Situations as the one described do not offer much time for considering the options. And in some cases there are no good options. One of the truths in life is that once a person decides that you will be their victim, you indeed are their victim even if you kill them and do not suffer physical harm.

Doublea A
January 2, 2012, 05:50 PM
Thank God your cousin is alive. Your cousin did the right thing by giving up the vehicle. It is hard to say what I would have done because once you are at gun point, your options becomes limited. Trying to unholster the gun and engaging the criminal will not be wise in this case. But others believe it can be done. Then the question becomes.......................

Is it possible for a criminal to draw and shoot you when you have already had him at gun point? If you believe you will shoot them before they engage then so can the reverse be true. The criminal has nothing to lose and will gladly take your life. So I will only engage when I have the upper hand in the situation.

These will be my reaction base on this scenario.
1. Run him over with the car if possible
2. Give up the vehicle and walk away
3. Give up the vehicle and once he gets inside engage him while taking cover and emptying the magazine.

tet4
January 2, 2012, 07:51 PM
Sorry to hear about your cousin. this will affect him the rest of his life like any other traumatic experience. Hopefully he can learn from it.

When you are in your car is about the most defenseless place you can be if someone walks up to you. Train crossings are even worse. Learning to leave enough room in front of you always is a very good thing to do.

A lot of times car jackings are the start of a serious crime spee. No one wants to run drugs or rob a bank driving their own car so they jack one. This is problematic because if you can't get out quickly they are going to remove you.

So my rule is that if I'm the only one in the car I'll try to get away as soon as possible. If there are others in the car there's no way I'm letting them go. One reason I got a permit was because of this particular situation when I had my kid. There's no way. Could get her out quickly and Ive decided that I am never going to get into a kidnapping situation if there's any way to stop it.

This is why I don't like to carry in the console or glove box. On body really is the only good way. Even then I would encourage everyone to actually sit in their car and try to draw with seat belt on or while getting out, etc. It could be illuminating.

Double Naught Spy
January 2, 2012, 08:13 PM
I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".
But would you shoot to protect your life? Your life is most definitely being threatened if you are being carjacked like the 17 year old cousin.

Having said that, I will not give up my gun,
So maybe you would indeed shoot to protect "property."

Where is my situational awareness? I would never be in Chicago to begin with, in my case.
Carjackings don't just happen in Chicago.

C0untZer0
January 2, 2012, 08:42 PM
I had to go to Aurora last week. I wouldn't go there for any reason normally, but I had to go there last week. I was definately on a high state of alert, on the street, when I gassed my car, parking in the garage - everywhere.

My aunt lives in Chicago, she is not moving out and unfortunately my mom drives there to see her. If my mom called with a car problem I would drive out there to help her with it.

It's easy to say "If you think you're going to need a gun to go into some neighborhood - don't go" or "If you're living someplace you consider to be so dangerous that you have to arm yourself - it's time to move." But the reality is it's not that easy for all people.

My father had a tuck driver of his get arrested for making a "Hazmat" spill. The driver backed over something and punctured one of his fuel tanks and dumped some diesel in what was basically an empty lot. Because he didn't follow the reporting requirments Chicago Police arrested him. My dad asked me to go with him to bail the driver out. Very bad area. I did take my HK P7M8 with me, in the car.

Hopefully Illinois gun laws will change soon.

Jeremiah/Az
January 2, 2012, 10:02 PM
Just a thought, if you are carjacked & step out & back, the BG is going to have to turn his back to you to get in your car. Can you legally shoot him then? Is he still a threat? He's leaving. Are you JUST protecting property @ that point?

C0untZer0
January 2, 2012, 10:09 PM
BG doesn't have turn his back to you, he can do all sorts of things like tell you to turn around and start walking and advise you that if he sees you so much as start to turn around he'll kill you.

He can tell you to get down on the ground and face away.

He can just shoot you...

TheNocturnus
January 3, 2012, 01:31 AM
My cousin is thankfully alive after this ordeal. I have heard too many stories where the victim did not just simply walk away.

I was thinking about what I would have done if I was in the car with him. Since he does not know I carry, I'd just whisper to get out and run. I would get out on the passenger side, take cover and begin to open fire on the BG and any of his idiot friends that decided to join in.

I have lived in or around Kansas City for all of my 31 years on this earth and the crime has never been so bad around here. I am getting really tired of it. I'm sure some of you remember me telling you about the 3 times I was robbed at gunpoint, twice in KC.

Justice06RR
January 3, 2012, 01:31 AM
I came in this world without anything, I'll leave this world without anything.

I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".

Having said that, I will not give up my gun, I carry it to protect my loved ones, as long as they aren't threatened, you can take my car, truck, or what ever. I'll keep my gun to assure property is all you get.

I've hitch hiked home before, I can do it again.

As nice as that sounds, we live in a dangerous and violent world. Your life is already in danger, not just your property when the BG pointed his gun straight at you. Cooperating is a good option of course, but if it comes down to it and you need to defend yourself and your property, then you should be prepared to do so.

To the OP, glad your cousin was unharmed in this situation. Did they catch the BG's?

TheNocturnus
January 3, 2012, 01:35 AM
To the OP, glad your cousin was unharmed in this situation. Did they catch the BG's?

I'm not sure. I did hear there was a drive by shooting later that day though and it was assumed it was done by the same individuals.

TexasJustice7
January 3, 2012, 04:35 AM
DoubleNaughtSpy: Carjackings don't just happen in Chicago

You clearly have a point, and certainly I might shoot to protect property as well. But if I am by myself, and I have to take a considerable chance of losing out grabbing for the gun I would let them have the car. But if my daughter is in the vehicle, thats a game changer. I will draw, because even if I surrendered the vehicle, they would not take the time to get her out and she could not get out on her own.

And if I had time to draw my gun without attracting attention before he arrived close enough to shoot me, I would try to be ready for him when he arrived at the window.

But I keep my smart keys under my shirt not visible. He will need them if I have a chance to kill the engine. Both my vehicles have full coverage, so insurance will replace them, so those alone are not a good enough reason to take a chance as well on going for a gun when hes already got the drop on me. Question is can I be ready and waiting before he gets close.

Chicago may not be the only place carjackings happen, but the criminals there on the engandgered protected spieces list, have a higher probability of not facing an armed citisen than they do in Texas. In fact they probably prosecute citisens without a permit for defending themselves against their criminals. At least that is my opinion of Illinois and Chicago. :D

Double Naught Spy
January 3, 2012, 09:18 AM
And if I had time to draw my gun without attracting attention before he arrived close enough to shoot me, I would try to be ready for him when he arrived at the window.

So if the car in front of you has doors open up and grandpa with a walker gets out, uncollapses the walker, reaches back in for his gun, and then scoots toward you 6-8" at a time until reaching your driver side window, looking at the ground the whole while so that he is sure to catch the walker on a crack/pothole in the pavement, then you might have time to draw without attracting attention by the time he arrives.

From the stats that I am seeing online, which are a bit sketchy because most states do not categorize carjacking as a specific crime type in regard to statistics, about half of carjackings take place when folks are stopped in traffic. That means your carjacker may be as close as 3-5 feet away at the start of the crime and you would not be wary of the person before the crime starts because that person is just the passenger in the car next to you stopped at the light.

Maybe he is in the vehicle in front of you at a light. He can get out and run to your door before you get your gun out (your actions being quite visible because you are in a hurry to accomplish the task) as has been found out by numerous cops who have pulled over cars, only to have the driver jump out and charge them.

In fact they probably prosecute citisens without a permit for defending themselves against their criminals. At least that is my opinion of Illinois and Chicago

In fact they probably???? Then it isn't a fact. Your categorization is in error. Citizens are prosecuted for self defense as you indicate, but for firearms violations. These are two completely different things. New York does a bunch of this as well.

A lot of us are going to try to stop the carjacking from happening, if we can. That sort of goes without saying. However to be able to do it is a whole other matter than actually doing it, time being one of the critical factors.

have a higher probability of not facing an armed citisen than they do in Texas.
And yet carjackings still keep happening in Texas. The keep happening in all of the conceal carry and vehicle carry states.

TexasJustice7
January 3, 2012, 12:18 PM
DoubleNaughtSpy: Maybe he is in the vehicle in front of you at a light. He can get out and run to your door before you get your gun out (your actions being quite visible because you are in a hurry to accomplish the task) as has been found out by numerous cops who have pulled over cars, only to have the driver jump out and charge them.

You may very well be right, and he may even had the drop on me. If that is the case and I am alone, I will let him have the vehicle. But with my disabled daughter in the vehicle (like a 3 yr old, she is in her 30's), I will draw
and probably die in the attempt, but I will never surrender the vehicle with my daughter in it. If he does kill me maybe he will leave without bothering to
drag me out of the vehicle and maybe leave her unharmed. But while I am alive I have a duty to protect her and I will do so even if it costs me my life. :eek:

Patriot86
January 3, 2012, 01:32 PM
This is why I have not one but two knives in pre-planned spots on my truck.
I have full vehicle insurance so if all he wants is my truck so be bit; but if I felt like the guy was after more than my vehicle, it would be a fight to the death.


IF we could CC here in the land o Lincoln I would in a heartbeat.

Carjackings can and do happen anytime, anywhere.

MLeake
January 3, 2012, 01:33 PM
Again, get in a habit of stopping so you can see the rear wheels of the vehicle in front of you, and you should have much better odds of just being able to hit the gas and turn the wheel.

If the car in front backs up without obvious cause (such as having overshot the stop line, and traffic starting to cross), it just might be time to clear a weapon.

MLeake
January 3, 2012, 01:36 PM
As far as wondering, "why a Kia?" bear in mind that for many years, the most commonly stolen cars were fairly low-end Hondas. Why? They are all over the place, and the stolen cars can be used to supply parts under the table. The parts probably sell for a lot more than the assembled car would.

Look at whatever cars are popular in higher crime neighborhoods. Those models are strong candidates for theft for parts.

OTOH, a non-descript car makes a better getaway vehicle, so those are strong candidates for pre-robbery acquisition.

Marine513
January 3, 2012, 02:00 PM
If it isn't an American car or truck it isn't worth saving :) just sayin......

output
January 3, 2012, 02:21 PM
The question is, at what point do you realize what has happened? At some point, you very well could be so far behind that resistance would have very poor odds.

Very good point, having a CCW does not guarantee anything. Does having a CCW better your overall odds in these kinds of situations? Yes. Having multiple options is always a good idea.

In this circumstance I can create a very strong argument that situational awareness could have been enough to change the outcome of the event just as MLeake mentioned. I suppose one can also argue that it is not always easy to conduct our day to day life in a high or moderate state of alert.

This kind of scenario is one reason I like to keep at least one car-length opening between my vehicle and the next. The same applies to railroad crossings, red-light intersections, etc. Once an armed assailant has the drop on you, the chance(s) of pulling and using a weapon of any sort in self-defense effectively drops significantly IMO and even more so once you are boxed in a small car with limited physical mobility.

In short, maintain situations awareness - it is and should always be your first line of defense.

TexasJustice7
January 3, 2012, 03:09 PM
Marine513: If it isn't an American car or truck it isn't worth saving just sayin......

I just wondered what the most commonly carjacked vehicle is and googled it. Don't know how current the info is but one site said Ford is the most commonly carjacked vehicle. Another vehicle said that carjackers don't
particularly carjack any one type. Didn't see any trend for Hondas or:):) Toyotas on the sites I checked.:)

jansson84
January 3, 2012, 05:17 PM
Glad to hear that your cousin is safe. Good reason not to keep a gun in the glove compartment.

MLeake
January 3, 2012, 06:22 PM
TexasJustice7, I didn't say Hondas were the target du Jour. According to insurance reports I read in the press back around 2004, they were and had been the top targets, along with Toyota Corollas.

What I will bet is that the reports you found said that most cars stolen were common types, and not particularly high-end examples of the type.

TexasJustice7
January 3, 2012, 06:43 PM
MikeLeake: What I will bet is that the reports you found said that most cars stolen were common types, and not particularly high-end examples of the type.

I actually did not recall your post on that. I read Marine13's post, and googled "carjacking" + "frequent cars" or something like that, and one website said that the most frequent car "carjacked" was fords, but another site, said carjackers don't pick any one kind. I don't know if that info I saw was current or not. I personally have never owend a Honda, don't own a Corolla either but I have owned Toyotas.

I figure that carjackers don't pick a particular brand to carjack, as it is more likely a crime of opporunity, whoever happens to be driving by. I have also owned a fords and cherolets. There are not as many carjackings in rural areas or at least I don't think there is as there are in big cities like Dallas.
I don't go to big cities because I hate driving in the traffic, if I can avoid it.
I figure no car is safe from them, regardless of the brand. And although I
live in Texas, I have never owned a pickup truck. :D

Ruark
January 3, 2012, 09:27 PM
But I keep my smart keys under my shirt not visible. He will need them if I have a chance to kill the engine.

Definitely an idea, with these modern cars. You could get out of the car and run like hell, maybe even push the "Alarm" button on your remote. By the time he figures out the engine's off, you're long gone, or inside a store or something.

Another method of carjacking is the "bump." You're sitting at a red light and a car rolls up and bumps you from behind. The driver gets out, acting very concerned, looking and frowning at the cars, etc. You get out and walk back and pow, he pulls or shows a piece and you're carjacked. A year or so back a woman was carjacked in exactly this manner. They took her somewhere and raped and murdered her.

GaryH
January 3, 2012, 09:54 PM
One way to look at it is that if you have the ability to take a bad guy out and elect not to do so, you may be somewhat responsible for the person they kill next time they try to steal something when the person moved too slow.

MLeake
January 3, 2012, 09:55 PM
GaryH, that's one way to look at it... but it is not a legally defensible way to look at it.

ripnbst
January 3, 2012, 11:51 PM
I'd wait til he turned his back to me getting in the car as most do and then empty the magazine. Still getting a new car regardless because that ones gonna be full o holes and blood. I wouldn't want it anymore anyway.

FairWarning
January 4, 2012, 12:51 AM
It's a sticky situation, because if the thug already has the gun on you, you might be a fool to attempt to outdraw him. If he simply gets away with your car, then life goes on. If however, it appears he wants to take you or your loved ones with him, put him on ice immediately if you can. You have a much lower chance of survival if you are transported somewhere by a criminal.

If you get out of the car and then pull the gun on him/shoot him as he's driving away, you'd end up in BIG trouble. Not worth it. If you can make him freeze on the spot, it might be worth it, be then again, you could be harassed by the police, even though you didn't initiate the confrontation. Oh well, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You have to evaluate it on a case by case basis.

The best up front defense is to do your best to avoid seedy areas, especially at night. If you live in one, MOVE! I would if it came to that. Life is to short to live in a high risk area.

TexasJustice7
January 4, 2012, 01:08 AM
Ruark: Definitely an idea, with these modern cars. You could get out of the car and run like hell, maybe even push the "Alarm" button on your remote. By the time he figures out the engine's off, you're long gone, or inside a store or something.

Another method of carjacking is the "bump." You're sitting at a red light and a car rolls up and bumps you from behind. The driver gets out, acting very concerned, looking and frowning at the cars, etc. You get out and walk back and pow, he pulls or shows a piece and you're carjacked. A year or so back a woman was carjacked in exactly this manner. They took her somewhere and raped and murdered her.

Yes. I was doing some more googling, and it does say on some sites that Toyota Camry's are the number one cars "stolen". I saw Ford on one site,
could not relocate it. But did see some other good suggestions regarding carjacking. One recommendation is to throw the key in one direction away from the carjacker and run the other direction, not toward the carjacker but away from the carjacker. They did not recommend thowing the keys at the carjacker though. The idea is what he does determines whether he wants the car or the victim more. In my case though, can't do that if my daughter is with me.

If one has that option or chance to throw the keys sounds to me like a good idea. A lot of the stats are distorted since the municipalities may record the incident as a robbery instead of a carjacking etc.
If one has extra gun or guns in the vehicle not on their person, and one surrenders the vehicle, that means the carjackers now have that gun to commit more crimes. I am highly susipicious when anyone approaches my vehicle, and I make an effort to get my gun out before they get close. But I worry about the times when I do not have one when headed for a federal facility.

Also it mentions on the bump and carjack on one site, that the accomplice stays around and drives the carjackers car away. I really like this thread,
because I had not given this matter much thought. One of my vehicles requires the smart key in the vehicle to start it, so killing the engine makes it almost impossible for him to take without the smart keys. I really like the idea of a remote start key for cold weather and even a remote shut down
might be a good idea. I may check to see what those options would cost me to add on my vehicles. :(

MLeake
January 4, 2012, 05:59 AM
Or you could get OnStar for a GM, or an aftermarket tracking system for other cars, and have tracking activated as soon as you get off the 911 call.

Shadi Khalil
January 4, 2012, 06:42 AM
If that happened to me I would have done exactly as your cousin did, gun or no gun. There is no need to have a shoot out over a Kia. Did they recover the car?

KC Rob
January 4, 2012, 08:37 AM
If that happened to me I would have done exactly as your cousin did, gun or no gun. There is no need to have a shoot out over a Kia. Did they recover the car?

This is the same line of thought propagated by many on the left in response to violent criminals; "just give them what they want and then they will leave you alone." I have even seen it suggested that women don't fight back against rapists, to just let him have his way with them and then he will go on about his business when he is done. The fallacy with this line of thought is to assume that all the criminal wants is your wallet, or your watch, or your Kia. These are often violent sociopaths who not only want to rob you, they want to harm you. Many people have conceded to a gun wielding robbers demands, only to find themselves getting shot anyways. I am not saying that simply giving over the car is not the right move, it clearly worked for your cousin, but I think you need to be prepared to have a shoot out, not for a Kia, but for your life.

TexasJustice7
January 4, 2012, 09:33 AM
TKCRob: This is the same line of thought propagated by many on the left in response to violent criminals; "just give them what they want and then they will leave you alone." I have even seen it suggested that women don't fight back against rapists, to just let him have his way with them and then he will go on about his business when he is done. The fallacy with this line of thought is to assume that all the criminal wants is your wallet, or your watch, or your Kia. These are often violent sociopaths who not only want to rob you, they want to harm you. Many people have conceded to a gun wielding robbers demands, only to find themselves getting shot anyways. I am not saying that simply giving over the car is not the right move, it clearly worked for your cousin, but I think you need to be prepared to have a shoot out, not for a Kia, but for your life.

I don't think anyone posting here is really advocating not resisting if there is opportunity to resist. The priority is surviving the encounter. I have a situation that demands that I draw if my daughter is with me, but otherwise I would try to get out of the encounter alive. I am not surrendering my property without using my gun either if I have the opporunity but if he has the drop on me, I would rather let him have my car which is insured anyway. If there is a chance to shoot him during the encounter I certainly would. But others have pointed out that there is very little time to draw your weapon if he is right at your door.

KC Rob
January 4, 2012, 10:27 AM
I agree with you TJ7, I probably didn't word my response well. I don't think anybody is advocating just rolling over, but I think there are many that think that if I just give them what they want they will leave me alone, and I think that is a dangerous line of thought. I, like you, do not have the option of just giving up my car, there will usually be a gorgeous 1 year old girl strapped in her car seat behind me and I am not going anywhere without her. But by the same token, even if she is not with me and I can give up the car, I also do not think her growing up with out a father is an acceptable option so I am going to do everything possible to keep myself out of a dangerous situation (situational awareness) and fight back if needed.

Onward Allusion
January 4, 2012, 10:56 AM
For a freakin' Kia? The world is going the heck in a hand basket...

Going back to the subject of T/T - the cousin did the right thing by letting the BG have the car. Would be different if there were loved ones in the car or if the BG was gonna kidnap him. If that were the case, fight 'till the BG is dead or you're dead. It don't matter because if they are going to kidnap you or your loved one, chances are you're dead anyway. This is why I carry a gun, pepper spray, and a knife almost all the time. In a world where BGs carjack Kias...well, you get it...

mo84
January 4, 2012, 11:47 AM
My cousin once had a crack head try to jump into his pickup through the passenger window in detroit, the out side handel did not work (He does construction there alot). He had to use a screwdriver to open his hood and at the time his truck would stall and he would have to open the hood and do somthing to get it started again. He just happened to have the screw driver in his lap that day after recently having to open the hood and sunk it into the crack head between his neck and shoulder about 5 inches ( I seen the screw driver and the blood line was almost to the handel). My cousin got cut with the guys knife but not bad. My cousin floored the truck and the guy fell off once he get stabbed, who knows what happened to him. Had the crack head had a gun instead of a knife it would have been a better idea for my cousin just to step out and let the guy have the truck because he probably would have been shot trying to react the way he did. It is easy to say I would do this and I would do that but really it is hard to say what you would do because everything happens so fast. Even if you do what you think you would do, there is no possible way to predict what the outcome would be.

VinnyT
January 4, 2012, 12:17 PM
Hmm.

So your cousin stopped at a railroad crossing because the gate was down?(Oncoming train) Now, if there was a train coming, how did the perps get away? Just trying to get some more details.

As far as pulling my gun? Yes I would have. Many here say "Let them have the car". OK, how do you know they wouldn't have shot you anyway once you did get out of the vehicle?

C0untZer0
January 4, 2012, 05:48 PM
My biggest fear is the car jacking.

That is my number one fear, and one of the things I do is make sure my car is gassed up at a local station before I drive anywhere and even at my own local station I am usually on high alert.

Here is another car jacking in Chicago - but the guy ended up surviving it:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57351591-504083/chicago-man-carjacked-shot-three-times-dumped-in-trunk-still-escapes/?tag=re1.channel




.

serf 'rett
January 4, 2012, 06:46 PM
Carjacking....humm...pretty well screwed if you pocket carry only. :(

Really up the creek if you're unalert and unarmed.

This is one of the reasons I stay way back from the car in front of me at stops, railroad crossings and even open highway when possible. More space = more reaction time and more options.

Double Naught Spy
January 4, 2012, 07:45 PM
Hmm.

So your cousin stopped at a railroad crossing because the gate was down?(Oncoming train) Now, if there was a train coming, how did the perps get away? Just trying to get some more details.

Nobody said a train was coming or that the gate was down. Nobody said it was a one way street with high rails to not let you get off the road. The OP did say that other cars were driving around them thinking it was an accident. So getting away really wasn't a problem. Even if the gate was down, folks turn around at RR crossings all the time because they are usually on 2 way roads.

As far as pulling my gun? Yes I would have. Many here say "Let them have the car". OK, how do you know they wouldn't have shot you anyway once you did get out of the vehicle?
It always sounds cool to draw on a drawn gun. I asked this above but will ask it again...

If you can't punch the accelerator to egress from the situation, what are you going to do? How quick is your driver side belted in the seat in a car with closed doors and windows draw and fire to hit the target? Are you going to be able to accomplish that task before the bad guy pulls his trigger? The bad guy already has a gun pointed at you by the time you have figured out what is going on. Are you really that good, stealthy, and fast to be able to draw and fire on him successfully before he shoots you?

VinnyT
January 4, 2012, 08:39 PM
Nobody said a train was coming or that the gate was down. Nobody said it was a one way street with high rails to not let you get off the road. The OP did say that other cars were driving around them thinking it was an accident. So getting away really wasn't a problem. Even if the gate was down, folks turn around at RR crossings all the time because they are usually on 2 way roads.

Ok then why was he stopped? What I read in the original post is that cars were going around the incident that was happening(carjacking in progress)

It always sounds cool to draw on a drawn gun. I asked this above but will ask it again...

If you can't punch the accelerator to egress from the situation, what are you going to do? How quick is your driver side belted in the seat in a car with closed doors and windows draw and fire to hit the target? Are you going to be able to accomplish that task before the bad guy pulls his trigger? The bad guy already has a gun pointed at you by the time you have figured out what is going on. Are you really that good, stealthy, and fast to be able to draw and fire on him successfully before he shoots you?

What if they guy is hopped up on PCP, Coke, etcetera and decides to shoot at you for the hell of it even AFTER you give them the car? I would rather give myself a chance than to be a dead victim.

I agree with you in the fact that if you can punch the accelerator to get out of there, do so. That would be my first choice. However I am basing this case on the fact that he was blocked in.

mo84
January 4, 2012, 11:02 PM
if the car was in the outside lane the car jacker could have simply made a U turn to get away as there is no on coming traffic to worry about if the train is going by.

TheNocturnus
January 5, 2012, 01:40 AM
I don't have all of the details as to what exactly happened. I heard everything from my mom and my aunt. I have been trying to get my cousin to call and talk to me but he is 17 and probably embarrased or too full of pride. From what my family is telling me, he is too scared to leave the house.

I really want to talk to him to give him some advice and to reassure him that this was a freak thing and you cannot live your life in fear. I have been robbed at gunpoint 3 times in my life, so I got my CCW and carry everywhere now. He is too young for that at the moment but he can still learn the same defensive mindset that I have.

I will get to talk to him eventually and when I get all of the details I will be happy to share them with you guys.

Double Naught Spy
January 5, 2012, 09:50 AM
Ok then why was he stopped? What I read in the original post is that cars were going around the incident that was happening(carjacking in progress).

What if they guy is hopped up on PCP, Coke, etcetera and decides to shoot at you for the hell of it even AFTER you give them the car? I would rather give myself a chance than to be a dead victim.

I agree with you in the fact that if you can punch the accelerator to get out of there, do so. That would be my first choice. However I am basing this case on the fact that he was blocked in.

Vinny, you seem to be fixated on non-relevant issues. It does not matter why the car was stopped. According to which set of stats you use (which seem to vary some depending on when and where they were gathered), something like half of all carjackings happen in traffic. Most of the rest happening at gas stations and in parking lots. However, if it will ease your mind some, it could be very well likely that the carjackers purposefully followed behind a vehicle required by law or by policy to stop at railroad crossings such as a school bus, petroleum tanker trunk, etc. Not only would the carjackers get a car stopped behind them due to a normal type of traffic stop, but they would also have the blockage (bus, truck) clear out of the way so as to be able to make a nice getaway.

It also does not matter how it was the the carjacker arrives at the decision to shoot you. Being on PCP, coke, etc. is not needed for that decision to be made and so too this is a non-relevant factor. Heck, it may be that the guy isn't on PCP, coke, etc. when he carjacks you and that is why he is carjacking you...to get money to get the drugs he wants.

So what if he decides to shoot you after you give him the car? You would rather give yourself a chance rather than being a dead victim? If a robbery is being committed against you, then you are already a victim. However, what you are expressing seems to be an ego-emotional response and using it as a basis for determining that you are going to try to draw and fire on the bad guy. You don't want to die without fighting and you are more afraid of dying without fighting than you are of just losing your vehicle.

A fighting chance? Interesting choice of words. Drawing on a draw gun is one way to make sure that there will indeed by a fight and one that you will be entering well behind the curve. Maybe you will get really lucky and the bad guy isn't carrying a real, loaded, or functional gun. Or maybe he does what these guys did and just open up on you once they see what you are doing. These guys bested a tactical (SWAT) officer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473621&highlight=1201

So once again, just how stealthy and fast is that draw of yours? It isn't really much of a fighting chance if you can't get your gun out and shooting at the robber before he just shoots you multiple times. Are your chances really better by drawing on a drawn gun than with complying?

I am not suggesting that you should not fight, but being smart about when you choose to fight. Complying until which time you have an opportunity to draw is likely a much better option than forcing the issue of starting a gun battle where the opposition is ready and on target and you don't even have a gun out. Drawing out of ego or emotional factors probably aren't going to make for the best tactical decisions.

VinnyT
January 5, 2012, 06:41 PM
Vinny, you seem to be fixated on non-relevant issues. It does not matter why the car was stopped. According to which set of stats you use (which seem to vary some depending on when and where they were gathered), something like half of all carjackings happen in traffic. Most of the rest happening at gas stations and in parking lots. However, if it will ease your mind some, it could be very well likely that the carjackers purposefully followed behind a vehicle required by law or by policy to stop at railroad crossings such as a school bus, petroleum tanker trunk, etc. Not only would the carjackers get a car stopped behind them due to a normal type of traffic stop, but they would also have the blockage (bus, truck) clear out of the way so as to be able to make a nice getaway.

It also does not matter how it was the the carjacker arrives at the decision to shoot you. Being on PCP, coke, etc. is not needed for that decision to be made and so too this is a non-relevant factor. Heck, it may be that the guy isn't on PCP, coke, etc. when he carjacks you and that is why he is carjacking you...to get money to get the drugs he wants.

So what if he decides to shoot you after you give him the car? You would rather give yourself a chance rather than being a dead victim? If a robbery is being committed against you, then you are already a victim. However, what you are expressing seems to be an ego-emotional response and using it as a basis for determining that you are going to try to draw and fire on the bad guy. You don't want to die without fighting and you are more afraid of dying without fighting than you are of just losing your vehicle.

A fighting chance? Interesting choice of words. Drawing on a draw gun is one way to make sure that there will indeed by a fight and one that you will be entering well behind the curve. Maybe you will get really lucky and the bad guy isn't carrying a real, loaded, or functional gun. Or maybe he does what these guys did and just open up on you once they see what you are doing. These guys bested a tactical (SWAT) officer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=1201

So once again, just how stealthy and fast is that draw of yours? It isn't really much of a fighting chance if you can't get your gun out and shooting at the robber before he just shoots you multiple times. Are your chances really better by drawing on a drawn gun than with complying?

I am not suggesting that you should not fight, but being smart about when you choose to fight. Complying until which time you have an opportunity to draw is likely a much better option than forcing the issue of starting a gun battle where the opposition is ready and on target and you don't even have a gun out. Drawing out of ego or emotional factors probably aren't going to make for the best tactical decisions.

Wow, where to begin....

Ok, so even if my life is in danger,(carjacker rushes toward me with gun),I need to evaluate if I should shoot him or just give up and give him the car?Fine. Let's say I do that and he shoots me anyway. Wow, glad I was armed, right? :rolleyes:

C'mon. It is not about ego or being macho, it is about common sense and defending my life, period. The way you wrote your post is that I should only draw when it is convenient. Really?

Onward Allusion
January 5, 2012, 09:39 PM
C'mon. It is not about ego or being macho, it is about common sense and defending my life, period. The way you wrote your post is that I should only draw when it is convenient. Really?

It's not about drawing when it is convenient. If a guy has a gun drawn on you and is asking for your car, why would you take a chance and draw on him at that moment. That's not to say one shouldn't draw on the guy as he's getting into the car. It's all about timing.

Think of it this way, if the BG is going to shoot you, he probably would have done so as soon as you got dragged out of the car. Do you really think you can draw THAT fast? I know I can't and I doubt many here can either.

HOWEVER, if you're saying that you would attempt to wrest the gun away, that's a different story. If you're trained, it is entirely possible to disarm the BG A LOT faster and easier than drawing. You would actually have a better chance doing that than drawing. Really.

MLeake
January 5, 2012, 09:50 PM
I have a LEO friend who has done exactly that (wrested guns away) at least three times during bad-breath distance confrontations.

BG's had sprained or fractured wrists or forearms for their troubles.

Combo of jujutsu training and a lot of kettlebell workouts...

Stevie-Ray
January 6, 2012, 07:11 PM
the South side of Chicagois the baddest part of town.......Jim Croce

Nnobby45
January 6, 2012, 07:34 PM
However, if I sensed I was personally in danger it’s a different story.


I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".


Some posts can be rather irriating.

If a car pulls in front of you, stops, and men with guns get out, I find it interesting that you would't feel your life is in danger at that very moment. It ceased to be a "property" issue very quickly.

Getting out of your car as fast as they do and engaging, or being prepared to engage, the suspects wouldn't be about shooting some one over your car. It would be about your life.


You may consider that your chances of surviving are better if you comply like a Lemming. I'd be afraid they wouldn't leave me alive so I could get on my cell phone and get the police involved. Wouldn't be much sense in stealing your car if they were going to let that happen.

Obviously, if you didn't see it coming, and are that far behind the curve, then compliance may be your only option. Then you have nothing to say about whether you live or die---unless you consider begging for your life a say in the matter.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:

VinnyT
January 6, 2012, 07:35 PM
It's not about drawing when it is convenient. If a guy has a gun drawn on you and is asking for your car, why would you take a chance and draw on him at that moment. That's not to say one shouldn't draw on the guy as he's getting into the car. It's all about timing.

Think of it this way, if the BG is going to shoot you, he probably would have done so as soon as you got dragged out of the car. Do you really think you can draw THAT fast? I know I can't and I doubt many here can either.

HOWEVER, if you're saying that you would attempt to wrest the gun away, that's a different story. If you're trained, it is entirely possible to disarm the BG A LOT faster and easier than drawing. You would actually have a better chance doing that than drawing. Really.

Then why carry? Just leave the pistol at home and cave-in to the bad guys.

Seriously, if a BG came towards my car with a drawn gun I would for sure draw down on him. At that moment, I don't know if he will put a pill in me or not, but I won't go down without a fight.

VinnyT
January 6, 2012, 07:38 PM
Nnobby45:Some posts can be rather irriating.

If a car pulls in front of you, stops, and men with guns get out, I find it interesting that you would't feel your life is in danger at that very moment. It ceased to be a "property" issue very quickly.

Getting out of your car as fast as they do and engaging, or being prepared to engage, the suspects wouldn't be about shooting some one over your car. It would be about your life.


You may consider that your chances of surviving are better if you comply like a Lemming. I'd be afraid they wouldn't leave me alive so I could get on my cell phone and get the police involved. Wouldn't be much sense in stealing your car if they were going to let that happen.

Obviously, if you didn't see it coming, and are that far behind the curve, then compliance may be your only option. Then you have nothing to say about whether you live or die---unless you consider begging for your life a say in the matter.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Yes. I agree. Thank you!

Onward Allusion
January 6, 2012, 10:50 PM
VinnyT
Then why carry? Just leave the pistol at home and cave-in to the bad guys.

Seriously, if a BG came towards my car with a drawn gun I would for sure draw down on him. At that moment, I don't know if he will put a pill in me or not, but I won't go down without a fight.

<Sigh> it depends on the situation. We can armchair QB until the cows come home and come up with a hundred different scenario. Bottom, use your brain G_D gave you and adjust as necessary. There aren't absolutes. Every situation is different and may you never have to experience any of the ones being brought up in this thread. If you're ever in a situation where you can smell the BG's bad breath and he's holding a gun on you, I hope you weigh your options before going immediately for your gun.