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Nyanko
December 30, 2011, 10:29 AM
Hello,

I live in Japan, and I'm looking for a basic course which
1. is available to non-US citizens, especially Japanese citizens, who are visiting the US.
2. is about 3-day to a week in length.
3. is designed to teach basics to those who have not touched firearms.
- A course that starts from gun safety and includes actual shooting practce with live rounds.
4. has firearms avaiable for rent in case those who attend the course do not possess their own ones.

I know there are some shooting ranges which are open to tourists and let us try some guns for an hour or so.
I'm sure it is fun to try some popular guns in those ranges, but I'm more interested in learning marksmanship fundamentals.
I have several airsofts and like plinking with them, but I also want to learn the gun safety and the proper way to practice shooting through real firearms.

Thank you.

MTT TL
December 30, 2011, 10:55 AM
I assume you don't have a gun because you live in Japan. Generally firearm transfers to non-US citizens who are also non-resident/ immigrant aliens on temporary visas are prohibited except:

A nonimmigrant alien is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving,
or possessing a firearm if the alien: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States; (2) is an official representative of a foreign government who is accredited to the United States Government or their Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or (3) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States. (See 18 U.S.C. § 922(y)(2) for additional exceptions.) Persons subject to one of these exceptions should answer “yes” to questions 12l and 13 and provide the documentation requested by question 18c.

So your options are:

- Give AG Eric Holder a call. He just approved transfers for all kinds of guns to Mexicans. I am sure he will approve one for Japanese person just looking to do so some training. (Or tell him you are a Mexican drug lord, he will square you right away)

- Get a hunting license and then convince a gun training school to let you train and shoot there when you are not "hunting". This might squeeze you in without going to the pokey.

- Become a diplomat representing Japan. This is the best way as you also get immunity from various crimes. I have no idea how to do that in Japan. In the US you have to give A LOT of money to whoever is running for President and than they get elected and make you an ambassador.

In any case if you DO land in jail, the justice department did set up a hot line for people not from the US who commit crimes, get locked up and feel their rights are being violated. I think you have to be in the country illegally to use it but I am not sure.

Me personally... I would love nothing more than to listen in with milk spitting out of my nose; when you call the DOJ to tell them that you are in jail because your second amendment rights are being violated and can they please help....

The hotline recording is available in both English and Spanish and callers are asked to leave a detailed message.

Hotline: 1-855-353-1010

Email: Hb56@usdoj.gov

dev_null
December 30, 2011, 11:21 AM
Nyanko, 英語が上手ですね!

I know that most places ask for 'legal ID' like a driver's license or other identification, but I don't know whether they require that people taking the class must be US citizens or not.

Do you have a particular region of the US that you're considering, or would you be picking the place to visit based upon having a class available?

The reason that I ask is that it might be easier to research classes in a particular area to find out if they have a residency requirement.

Good luck!

Glenn E. Meyer
December 30, 2011, 11:22 AM
To be a touch more practical (added - I see Dev we are on the same page - www.krtraining.com in our area):

1. What area of the USA are you willing to come to?

2. Check out local laws about noncitizens or nonlicensed folks handling firearms. Some states may have prohibitions, many do not.

3. I have heard that Japanese tourists visit the West Coast and Las Vegas and ranges have special tours/classes for them.

4. I know in TX that we have hosted Asian visitors from China and the Middle East at our matches and clubs without difficulty.

5. It can be done - there are Japanes airsoft shooter clubs. A young man came here and shot normal IPSC and was very successful. Perhaps you can contact the Japanese IPSC for ideas - http://ipsc-japan.org/

6. Same for IDPA - http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=Japan


Give us a hint about where you want to visit and we can help you contact reputable schools and they probably have a handle on laws and arranging visits.

mete
December 30, 2011, 05:56 PM
Strange as it might seem to Americans , Japan has a number of fine gun magazines .Some years back I met some of the gun magazine people here on a visit. Perhaps you could contact those magazines to get the information.

Marty Hayes
December 30, 2011, 09:01 PM
I think the issue for must gun schools is not the fact that the person is not an American citizen, but simply have the mission to train people who want to learn firearms use for self-defense. At least that is the mission at our school. I turn down people who do not have that main goal in mind. I want everyone on the same mental wave length.

dyl
December 30, 2011, 09:29 PM
If you cannot find a "school" to train you, many shooting ranges host their own classes. Sometimes the employees are the teachers. After you find out if you are allowed to handle a firearm (not talking about buying) i would look for specific ranges and call them up asking about classes. Lots of times you can get private lessons. This may not be what you were looking for.

As for your time frame, maybe you could contact Front Sight institute. They are a fairly large organization and may have some experience with this. They host classes that are several days long. I am thankful to be in this country and i hope you're able to find a way to learn the sport.

kraigwy
December 30, 2011, 11:28 PM
Mr Nyanko

The Civilian Marksmanship program has a GSM Clinic, often referred to as a Garand Clinic.

To attend the clinic the attendee has to sign an affidavite stating:

A) The person has not been convicted of any Federal or State felony or violation of section 922 of title 18.

B) The person is not a member of any organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States Government.

The affidavate also is a waiver or hold harmless agreement.

These local or club clinics provide firearm safety training and an introduction to target and range firing. The CMP sanctions these clinics when sponsoring clubs submit an application and a $20.00 sanctioning fee. The CMP provides instructional materials, low-cost ammunition.

The clinics use M1s, Springfields, Military Sporters, Carbines and Modern Military rifles.

I am a CMP-GSM Master Instructor and do conduct Clinics and Matches. The course of fire is either 30 or 40 rounds depending on which course fired.

To my knowledge, there is no requirement to be a citiizen to attend these clinics as long as your are in the country legally. I will check to make sure if interested.

The cost of the clinic is $20, (total, to be spit ammong the shooters) plus ammo. The cost of the ammo is dependant on what course you wish to fire. Normally it would be about 50 cents a round.

I do provide limited loaner rifles for my clinics at no cost. The clinic can be completed in one day. It will teach Gun Safety, Positions, Marksmanship fundamentals.

My range is in Newcastle WY in the Black Hills, near such attractions as Mount Rushmore, Jewel Cave NM, Wind Cave National Park, Deadwood, just to name a few.

This would make a great vacation to go along with your clinic.

I do not charge for this clinic. You spit the $20 fee, plus pay for the ammo (which would be between $15 and $20 per shooter). You have the choice of firing on my personal range (no cost) or our club range which would charge a $5 range fee.

This web site gives you more information on the clinics.

PM me if you are interested.

MTT TL
December 31, 2011, 07:51 AM
You have the choice of firing on my personal range (no cost) or our club range which would charge a $5 range fee.

Based on gun laws I would say he has to use your range. If he takes it off your facilities than that would be an illegal transfer.

Kevin Rohrer
December 31, 2011, 09:22 AM
This is one of the two best private shooting schools in the world. I have been there several times and highly recommend it. The school is located in north central Arizona. To get there you would fly into Phoenix and drive north slightly over 2-hours.

I don't know if they take foreign nationals; you will need to ask them. They do have firearms for rent. A working knowledge of English is important for safety.

http://www.gunsite.com/main/

Bartholomew Roberts
December 31, 2011, 10:25 AM
There are also issues from the school's side as some training can not be legally offered to foreign nationals without jumping through the appropriate State Deartment hoops.

jrothWA
December 31, 2011, 10:37 AM
in 2008 my wife & I took second honeymoon to Honolulu, I was surprised by noticing two firearms ranges in the Waikiki Beach area the appeared to caterer to foreign nationals, for first time firearm training, it was an expensive endeavor.

I, recommend that you "google", firearm trainng - Waikiki, and see what develops and contact those listed to see if they have references from your homeland.

Having lived in Seattle, WA, there are some training facilities there but not certain what is available for visitior from outside the USA??

Maybe contact the moderator "Pax" of this forum, she is from that area and MIGHT be able to assist.

Welcome, again and Good luck!

kraigwy
December 31, 2011, 10:39 AM
I got a ruling from the CMP, according the Chief Operating Officer of the CMP, Tourist CAN attend a CMP GSM Clinic.

So if the OP is interested, I will put on the Clinic for him.

Nyanko
December 31, 2011, 08:35 PM
Mr. MTT TL

Generally firearm transfers to non-US citizens who are also non-resident/ immigrant aliens on temporary visas are prohibited except:


Does that "firearm transfers to non-US citizens" applies to guns rented at the range and used only inside that range?

Anyway, thank you very much for the detailed explanations.
I was concerned about leagal problems that happen when non-US citizen use firearms.

Nyanko
December 31, 2011, 08:50 PM
Mr dev_null

I'm just looking for a class which is available to overseas citizens and do not care about the location of the school.
I haven't never thought of the residency requirement, so thanks for the heads-up. I added this to the list of questions that I ask when I contact a school.
This was a big help. Again, thank you very much.

Tom Servo
December 31, 2011, 09:03 PM
Does that "firearm transfers to non-US citizens" applies to guns rented at the range and used only inside that range?
No. Guns that are loaned out and kept on the premises are not "transferred," as they still belong to the business.

dev_null
December 31, 2011, 09:23 PM
どう致しまして!

Nyanko
December 31, 2011, 10:41 PM
Mr Glenn E. Meyer

1. Basically, any place where I can find a course which I can leagally take.
I'm not concerned about the location itself because I'm visiting the US for learning gun safety and marksmanship, not for sightseeing this time.
Although I'm thinking about including some 'minor to medium' sightseeing activities, it's not the main focus.
With that said, as for location, I prefer a place where

A. airfare from Japan is reasonable
International flights cost, but a flight from Japan to that particular region is substaintially more expensive than the others, I may search other places.
B. public transportations are available.
Since I won't have a car during the visit, nor can I drive, I would have to rely on train/bus/taxi to move between the hotel and the range.
C. the climate is moderate in February and March.
This is because I'm planning to take 5 days to a week off of my work somewhere around that time if my schedule allows.
D. there is a store which carries items necessary for shooting.
I can purchase them for prices usually substaintially cheaper in the US than in Japan.

2. I'm struggling with this because it is kinda difficult to find information on laws about the use of firearms by foreign individuals,
but this is critical and I'll search more as I narrow down choices of schools.

3 & 4. Thank you for the information. I'll check out schools around that area.

5 & 6. These may be a great resource too. Thanks.

Kevin Rohrer
January 1, 2012, 08:08 AM
B. public transportations are available.
Since I won't have a car during the visit, nor can I drive, I would have to rely on train/bus/taxi to move between the hotel and the range.
C. the climate is moderate in February and March.
This is because I'm planning to take 5 days to a week off of my work somewhere around that time if my schedule allows.
D. there is a store which carries items necessary for shooting.

B. Gunsite has one or two lodges right outside the ranch gate that caters to students.
C. 70-80F around that time of year.
D, They have a store on-site that will sell you whatever you need including ammo, ear protection, hats, elbow & knee pads, holsters, etc. And the school will rent you a pistol w/o (am guessing just about anything you might want: 1911, SIG, Glock, Beretta, S&W, etc) a problem.

Nyanko
January 1, 2012, 11:39 AM
Mr kraigwy

Thank you for the information on the CMP
I would like to ask several questions about it.

The clinics use M1s, Springfields, Military Sporters, Carbines and Modern Military rifles.

Does the clinic offer a class for handling and shooting handguns, particularly those with relatively smaller calibers, like .22LR and 9mm?
I'm a big fan of military rifles and would like to try them, but I've been mainly practicing with handgun airsofts, so I would like to try handguns to see the results of the practice with my airsofts.

To my knowledge, there is no requirement to be a citiizen to attend these clinics as long as your are in the country legally. I will check to make sure if interested.

I am interested, so could you please check?

The cost of the clinic is $20, (total, to be spit ammong the shooters) plus ammo.

Does this mean that the clinic is basically a group class?
If it is, how many students join the clinic?
Also, is there a private clinic, i.e. clinic where one instructor teaches one student?
The reason why I consider the private clinic is, even though I'll probably be able to understand what are taught in the clinic
there may be times when I want to confirm and ask things which are obvious to native speakers of English.
I know this sounds somewhat stupid, but the safety is a priority, and I'd rather take it slow and make everything clear when I take a class that involves the handling of firearms.

I would also like to know how long each clinic is.
If it is a single day deal, could you arrange the clinic that stretches a couple to several days, for example handgun on first day, then rifle on second day, and so on?
Traveling overseas is not something that I can do very often, so I would like to stay several days and make the most of it.

Thanks.

Nyanko
January 1, 2012, 11:50 AM
Mr Kevin Rohrer

I contacted Gunsite before to ask whether they accept non-US citizens, and the sad things is that they offer courses only to US-citizens.
The school looks pretty cool, so I really wish I could attend their classes.
Thanks for the information anyway!

kraigwy
January 1, 2012, 07:07 PM
Mr kraigwy

Thank you for the information on the CMP
I would like to ask several questions about it.


Quote:
The clinics use M1s, Springfields, Military Sporters, Carbines and Modern Military rifles.

Does the clinic offer a class for handling and shooting handguns, particularly those with relatively smaller calibers, like .22LR and 9mm?
I'm a big fan of military rifles and would like to try them, but I've been mainly practicing with handgun airsofts, so I would like to try handguns to see the results of the practice with my airsofts.

I put on CMP GSM Clinics as well as High Power Rifle and NRA Pistol Clinics.

So yes I can do pistol as well as rifle. These are not sefl defense classes, but DO teach "FIREARM SAFETY" and Marksmanship fundamentals for both rifle and pistol.



To my knowledge, there is no requirement to be a citiizen to attend these clinics as long as your are in the country legally. I will check to make sure if interested.

I am interested, so could you please check?

I did check with the Chief Operations Officer of the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and they have no rules against NON Cititizen Attending their Clinics. So that isn't a problems, also there is no federal or state (Wyoming) laws preventing me from conducting a clinic for non-citizen tourist. Nor is there any laws preventing you from using my rifles and pistols during this clinic.



The cost of the clinic is $20, (total, to be spit ammong the shooters) plus ammo.

Does this mean that the clinic is basically a group class?
If it is, how many students join the clinic?
Also, is there a private clinic, i.e. clinic where one instructor teaches one student?

My clinics very in size from 1 to 8 people. If I have more then that I like to spit them to keep the numbers down. No rules state that I can't spit the clinics into two or more class to keep the numbers down.

The total CMP fee is $20, that means $20 or one or ten students. Ammo is per use, meaning you only pay for what you use, and it on a "cost" basic. You pay acutal cost (what the CMP Charges for the ammo). I do not sell ammo or guns, nor do I rent guns, though I do have several to choose from for your use.

The reason why I consider the private clinic is, even though I'll probably be able to understand what are taught in the clinic
there may be times when I want to confirm and ask things which are obvious to native speakers of English.

I have no problem with that, I do not and will not move to another topic until all students understand the present topic. So that wont be a problem. You'll learn and understand "A" before we move on to "B".

I know this sounds somewhat stupid, but the safety is a priority, and I'd rather take it slow and make everything clear when I take a class that involves the handling of firearms.

No Sir: it does not sound stupid at all, I whole heartely agree. I set three goals, SAFETY, Making sure each and every student leans and can demistrate the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, Fundamentals: Each and every student learns the Fundamentals of Marksmanship. and FUN: I want each student to enjoy the experience.

My main goal is to further Shooting Sports, to do accomplish that it has to be SAFE, A learning Experiecne, and enjoyable. I want students to want to continue in the game of shooting sports, making it a life time hobby, and to pass that knowledge on to othere.

The future of Shooting Sports is in new shooters.

I would also like to know how long each clinic is.
If it is a single day deal, could you arrange the clinic that stretches a couple to several days

That's up to you. If you can do it in one day, or if you want a few days.

I do not want anyone to leave my class unless they have a complete understanding of the Four Basic Rules fo Firearms Safety, and a Knowledge of Marksmanship Fundamentals.

It it takes a week, then so be it.

Please understand, these clinics will not make you an expert marksman, they will give you the basic knowledge and understanding you need to start toward that goal. Becoming an expert marksmen will require you continue with hard work and practice. The limiting factor is the individual and how far he/she wants to go and if they are willing to put in the time and effort toward that goal.

Before considering the clinics above, I would sugest you PM me and I will provide you with my background (training and experience) so you can determine if I meet your qualifications as an instructor.

motorhead0922
January 1, 2012, 08:01 PM
Nyanko

...I'm not concerned about the location itself because I'm visiting the US for learning gun safety and marksmanship, not for sightseeing this time.

When you enter the US, and go through customs, you will be asked the nature of your visit. Do NOT state that you are here to learn how to use guns. Tell them you ARE a tourist, on your way to Mt. Rushmore, or something of that nature.

Kevin Rohrer
January 1, 2012, 08:19 PM
I contacted Gunsite before to ask whether they accept non-US citizens, and the sad things is that they offer courses only to US-citizens.
The school looks pretty cool, so I really wish I could attend their classes.

Sorry to hear that. Try checking with this place. The owner used to be an instructor at Gunsite and follows the same philosophy, and offers similar courses with similar facilities. They are in Oregon, which is closer to you than Arizona.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/home/index.html

Nyanko
January 5, 2012, 07:28 AM
Mr motorhead0922

When you enter the US, and go through customs, you will be asked the nature of your visit. Do NOT state that you are here to learn how to use guns. Tell them you ARE a tourist, on your way to Mt. Rushmore, or something of that nature.

I appreciate your advice.
Also, this and other posts have made me realize that it is leagally difficult for a non-US citizen to go to the US and take some course on firearms.
I understand a Japanese guy suddenly asking the way to get a firearms training makes some people nervous, so I appreciate some people make advice like this.
I welcome any advice or caution because the worst thing for me is to see my enthusiasm cause some huge leagal problem, not to see that there is no way to work it out.
If there is no way to work it out and I have to stay in the airsoft world, I will just do so, though it's tough for me.
That being said, I will do my best to make my plan work, so thanks again!

WW2
January 6, 2012, 04:49 PM
Mr Nyanko;

The training you a seeking is available at http://www.frontsight.com/ near Las Vegas Nevada. Please contact them for details regarding your situation.

Mr Dish
January 6, 2012, 09:27 PM
Nyanko-San,

It seems to me that you might simplify your search by contacting the NRA. They would be the best bet for getting the information you need.


National Rifle Association of America
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030

You can contact the NRA via phone at:
NRA Member Programs
1-800-672-3888


Good Luck.

Nyanko
February 8, 2012, 01:42 PM
About a month ago, I posted a question to ask that whether there is a firearms training course available to foreign nationals, in my case, a citizen of Japan.
I am glad that a lot of people kindly answered my questions, even though it must have been fairly rare, and my English is not so awesome.
Thank you for all the answers.

I recently found FrontSight does accept students from other countries.
There might be some other schools that are open to foreign nationals, but as far as I have searched, there are not many of them.

I also found that there are some shooting ranges in Guam which are open to tourists.
Although they are primarily for tourists, at least I wouldn't have to worry about leagal issues, so this might be a best compromise.
Also, some of them seem to have a wide variety of guns.
I am not sure whether they have courses in which I can learn the basic of the shooting, and I am still very much interested in taking courses which are held on US Mainland.

In the meantime, as I continued with my searching, my job started getting busy again, and right now I am not sure when I can take a week-long off next time.
I'm hoping to take some vacation during summer or autumn, but not sure.
So the whole plan has come to kind of a pended state,
but I have gained tons of useful information that I can use in the future, and I still definitely give one a try,
so thanks for all your help and see you again!

Nyanko

dec41971
February 8, 2012, 11:14 PM
You can shoot someone else's gun the range etc, as long as you are legally in the US. I know I have taken foreign friends to the Police Range in VA. Transfer refers to buying. You being a tourist may not buy a gun. You can take classes if you want thats fine, as long as the trainer is ok with it. You may go to any range and rent there as long as the range is willing to rent it to you. If you visit NY or DC, NY is tough. There are ranges in NJ, but most are hard to get to unless you have a friend with car to drive you around. If you visit DC however, there are plenty of places in VA and most will be familiar with the tourist\foreign issue, since a lot of foreign nationals live and work in the area.

Skans
February 9, 2012, 05:36 PM
You can shoot someone else's gun the range etc, as long as you are legally in the US. I know I have taken foreign friends to the Police Range in VA.

I know I wouldn't have any problem letting someone from Japan shoot my guns at a range with supervision. My experience is that people from Japan tend to be very respectful and follow directions - two traits that make it easy to teach someone how to properly use a firearm. Personally, I'd love to see tourists from other countries come here to indulge themselves in learning to shoot various firearms. Drop the kids off at Disney World and off to the shooting range!:D

thump_rrr
February 12, 2012, 07:37 AM
I'm a Canadian who was also looking at taking a course in the USA.
Searching on a Canadian website brought up the actual problem.

The US Government, particularly the US Department of State views training of non US citizens as an export.
This is under ITAR regulations so the person training the foreign national can face the same penalties for training as for providing you with the actual arms.

What you will need to do is to fill out form DSP-83 and attatch to that an export permit provided by the Japanese senior firearms export control officer in your Department of Foreign Affairs For International Trade.

The cost is $250 for the application and it is non refundable if you are declined.
I don't know how your minister will react when you request such an export permit since I'm sure that you'll be one of very few people who have made such a request.
Don't be surprised if your version of the secret service starts to have a closer look at you and possibly your political affiliations.

Hook686
February 13, 2012, 12:21 AM
So all foreign students going to college in the US have to apply under ITAR and fill out form DSP-83 in order to go to college ? Perhaps getting firearm education might be a better approach.

TexasJustice7
February 13, 2012, 01:13 AM
Hooks686: So all foreign students going to college in the US have to apply under ITAR and fill out form DSP-83 in order to go to college ? Perhaps getting firearm education might be a better approach.

I wonder if this is true for Texas, since Texas offers in state tuition rates for non-citisens. Maybe he could check to see if the universities in Texas offer any courses in firearms training, or get them to mail him a booklet of the courses offered. ;)

Hook686
February 13, 2012, 03:52 AM
hmmmm perhaps you have an idea there. However I was thinking more like one could get a sound education on the use and safety of firearms from kraigwy. You might check Texas out and report back :D

dev_null
February 13, 2012, 06:04 PM
Texas offers in state tuition rates for non-citisens
You still have to establish residency by living here a year, or else get a waiver (usually reserved for students who are employed by the university, e.g., TA's).

Bubba in c.a.
February 13, 2012, 10:30 PM
aren`t we all feeling safer now that Swiss army knives are confiscated by the ZILLIONS at airports and friendly law obiding people from friendly countries can`t get training?

I have heard of the ITAR stuff on other sites. If nothing else, it will confuse gun-school owners. If I ever want to get my non-resident wife trained in firearms, I`ll do it myself or go to some third country and do it!

hsingyu
February 15, 2012, 12:54 PM
You can join the army if you want to learn how to use a gun, that is what I used to do, you can also ask someone that has been in the military or police to train you, but you need to have a good social network. You can also go to the philippines or Cambodia where civilians can enroll in combat courses.

hsingyu
February 15, 2012, 12:56 PM
Going to US is costly and non-efficient, Cambodia is where you want to be if you are from Asia. Money can buy anything.