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warbirdlover
December 21, 2011, 12:15 AM
Since we don't have pheasants to speak of in Wisconsin anymore my BIL and I went on a pheasant hunt where the guide had the dog and they put out the birds. It was okay but just not real pheasant hunting.

Now this place also had elk and deer hunting. And I mean they grew the deer in pens and had about any "score" bucks you'd want. Same with the elk. Pens of huge racked bulls. It all seemed so wrong.

The part that got me the most was, this place was booked solid. They came from all over the country to hunt elk in Wisconsin of all places.

Of course these so called "hunters" had the bucks because if you wanted a 160 class buck you pay XXX amount of dollars and bigger much more. And they had the bigger bucks!

The place was totally fenced in. What do they do? Park the guy or girl in a blind, roll up a wagon with the specified buck or elk in it and release it so the hunter has a shot? It's all so pathetic.

But they are getting rich doing this and so are many other places. I've seen hunts for red stag in one of the northeastern states and as was stated in another thread, exotics in Texas.

These are not sportsman. These are not hunters. These are just killers. I thought this might be okay for handicapped people but if these handicapped people are true hunters they'd have no part of it. Am I wrong here?

I know I won't be going on any more canned pheasant hunts. :o

Gbro
December 21, 2011, 12:27 AM
I feel just the same way.
I once went to a game farm for pheasants and that was it for me. Now I will concede that if I was to train a new dog I would use a game farm but that's it.
As for big game trophy's, I will always believe it is the hunt not the size of the game that makes for the trophy.

tahoe2
December 21, 2011, 01:06 AM
I agree you guys. I hunted Antelope in Wyoming this year on private property.
these animals were wild with no hunting pressure, when we got out of the truck to make a stalk, if they saw us they bolted. So even on private property with no hunting pressure, wild animals are still wild. It was a very challenging hunt and I loved every minute of it (spot & stalk). When they felt too much pressure from us they just jumped the fence and ran onto another property.
They came back in a couple of days and we all tagged out. But those Antelope wanted nothing to do with us.

Shooting animals released from a cage; is just shooting animals. IMO

Shoes
December 21, 2011, 08:08 AM
I'd rather shoot a CTA bus than shoot animals on a game farm. At least I have a hatered for those darn buses.

Art Eatman
December 21, 2011, 08:32 AM
The bird thing has been common for a long time. Goes back to at least the 1800s.

SFAIK, most of the hunting for exotics in Texas is in wide-open pastures. The deal there is that as ferals, it's always open season. Rancher's aren't limited to deer-season-only for hunter income.

The only reason I don't get all harumphy over breeding programs and such is that I know that there are people who don't have the time or skill to do proper hunting. For those people, I take the attitude that something is better than nothing, and there is at least the chance, the hope, that they might eventually learn righteousness. :)

Rifleman1776
December 21, 2011, 08:50 AM
What you describe is not hunting. I agree, it is pathetic. When I raised cattle I could have shot cows in the pasture also. But it is legal and someone is making money. Each to his own.

Deja vu
December 21, 2011, 08:52 AM
I once hunted hogs in idaho on a game farm. I think that its not hunting. I think its ok for testing out a new weapon (I used a cross bow)

bird_dog
December 21, 2011, 09:34 AM
I belonged to a pheasant club that stocked pen-raised pheasants into open habitat. It was technically a "game farm". Other than the dogs occasionally catching a bird on the ground, it was still pretty sporting and birds did get away. Not "shooting chickens", as my dad liked to call it. It was a great way to break in new dogs, and a great way to get old dogs some easier action. I have no problem with those hunts.

The big game hunts are where I draw the line. Fences, in particular, are where I draw the line. A neighbor of mine used to go hog hunting in PA annually. He said that you never really saw the fences. Eventually he realized that the "guides" were carefully placing him in a scenic area, telling him not to move around, and ultimately pushing the pigs over the hill for him to shoot. Ugh. No thanks.

Do a Google search on "trophy whitetail" or "trophy elk" outfitters, and you'll be disgusted. 100% fair-chase on big game for me.

I killed one button-buck with my .44 handgun at 75 yards on the last day of the season. That's a far better trophy than a 150-class buck that I paid $10,000 for the privelege of walking up to and shooting.

I know some people feel the same way about pen-raised pheasants but, literally, it's a different animal.

AllenJ
December 21, 2011, 09:47 AM
I totally agree with you Warbird, it is not hunting. A couple of years ago I went on a canned pheasant hunt and it was nothing like real pheasant hunting, we actually watched the guy put the birds down. Where is the sport in that? And the money they charged was outragous IMHO.

jimbob86
December 21, 2011, 10:08 AM
High fence pay-to-hunt operations (and the trade in deer and elk to stock them) were what brought CWD to Nebraska (from WI, incedently) ...... I despise these operations and the people that run them. Canned pheasant hunting is the same crap, only on a smaller scale.

Money is killing the hunting heritage in my state.

Some cube dweller from suburbia pays a couple grand for a hunt, another grand for gas, food and lodging to drive out for opening weekend of deer season and shoot a deer that is not afraid of people....... and then pays somebody else to package his meat, which he than gives away to a food pantry...... all so he can say he's a "hunter". He could not find a deer on his own if he had to, and is not interested in learning how..... and processing his own meat is too much work, and he does not eat the stuff anyhow....

Once upon a time, I hunted that ground ...... It's posted because it's leased by a big guide operation now.....

PTS1
December 21, 2011, 10:45 AM
I am almost certain "canned" hunts are illegal in Texas. IF what you are saying is true, that Elk and deer are released from a pen right before a hunt is about to start, that is a "canned" hunt and should be illegal there too. As far as exotics in Texas, it all depends on your point of view. I took an red deer with a bow on a high-fenced 5,000 acre ranch. Took several outings just to see it, as it roams free inside the fence. I do not consider this a canned hunt just because it is in a high fenced area. Ranchers in Texas have allowed those of us who will never be able to afford an over-seas hunt for exotic game a chance to have an experience we would not otherwise be able to do. They spend a lot of money and time on these animals and fence them in so they are not poached or taken by some yahoo neighbor. Would I hunt on a high-fenced 500 acre ranch...no. But that is me as I have been blessed with a decent paying job that allows me to hunt on a bigger but more expensive ranch. However, I have nothing against someone who does not have as much income and can only afford to take an exotic on a 500 acre ranch. You can make "hunt" out of it if you want by using a bow or handgun to make it more challanging. As in life, you get out what you put in. I will not pass judgement on any hunters as long as they are within the limits of the law.

jimbob86
December 21, 2011, 11:12 AM
Took several outings just to see it, as it roams free inside the fence.

"roams free...... inside the fence"

You don't see the disconnect there?

I took an red deer with a bow on a high-fenced 5,000 acre ranch.

That's less than 8 square miles....... fenced in. You might be in a bigger can, but it's a can nonetheless.

The animals are not wild- they are livestock owned by the landowner, and you are paying to shoot them.

I am not for making this illegal, mind you: Ranchers can do what they want want on their land with their property..... including taking your money to allow you to go shoot his livestock...... Just don't go tellin' everybody you "hunted" that animal, where it had a chance to leave the area, and you were competing for the same game with "neighbors" and "yahoos".....

The biggest problem I have with high fence operations is when they move "wild" animals around the country (often from conditions where they are concentrated together beyond what is found in nature-prime conditions to contract diseases) ..... that's how CWD was spread from WI to the Nebraska panhandle .......

RevGeo
December 21, 2011, 11:19 AM
I went along with a friend on a 'buffalo hunt' in Montana. We got to the ranch, were driven to a pasture and my friend was told 'Shoot that one, third from the left.' My friend shot it three times with his Shiloh Sharps 45-70 and it finally fell over. End of hunt. My friend got a lot of meat and a buffalo hide.
It was pretty pathetic, but I suppose it wasn't all that different from shooting buffalo back in the 1860s, other than the buffalo didn't seem to mind our presence.
I'm not necessarily against shooting driven game. It has long been an honorable way to hunt in Europe and, to tell you the truth, on more than one deer hunt I've walked through an area with the hope that I might push something up to a partner or have the partner push something to me. Is that 'driving deer' or 'party hunting'? Seems like sort of a grey area.
As for birds, I have no problem shooting pheasants on private property as long as the pheasants aren't raised there for the purpose of hunting them.
Pheasants aren't native to the U.S. but they have been around so long they might as well be considered wild game, like brown trout.
Perhaps if hunting is to survive in America we will eventually have to go to the European style of hunting game with drivers pushing the stag or roebuck towards the 'gun'. But I sure hope not.

George

jimbob86
December 21, 2011, 11:28 AM
"Driving deer" is not illegal.... I push deer to my kids on stand all the time. It's fair chase, as the deer is free to go anywhere he wants to, including across the property line where we can't follow...... the trick is using my big fat brain to figure out which way the deer will run, and put a stander there.....

Seems a lot more ethical than feeding them corn and apples all fall and then shooting them from ambush on opening morning......

mapsjanhere
December 21, 2011, 11:45 AM
I'm still torn on the buffalo hunt. My wife wanted to get me one for an anniversary, and they have those "hunts" half a day's drive from here. But it seemed to be more "buffalo harvest with big gun" than hunting. OTOH, they used to organize buffalo hunting from trains when there were still wild buffaloes on the plains, so it never seemed to be all that much of a challenge once you got big guns involved.

Saltydog235
December 21, 2011, 12:23 PM
When we hunt quail, most of the birds are pen raised birds, very few good wild coveys are out there anymore. Its what we have and the birds do sometimes get away and raise, though not with enough regularity to establish covey groups.

However, I cannot see hunting pen raised and to a degree trained "livestock" as being a form of hunting. I know its popular in some areas but to me its laughable to call it hunting. Now our deer aren't corn fed. cold weather monsters but I'd rather take an old swamp donkey thats avoided getting shot during a 4 month season than a mega racked, geneticlly bread freak released from a pen.

PTS1
December 21, 2011, 12:54 PM
The animals are not wild- they are livestock owned by the landowner, and you are paying to shoot them.


Wow jimbob, they must call you the "deer whisperer" around the hunitng camp being able to walk up to "livestock" and pet them. Where is the "hunting" in that? I am being sarcastic, of course, but if you think you can walk up to these "canned" animals like you can with a cow, you are seriously mistaken. You are entitled to your opinon on what is a fair-chanse hunt or what other people are allowed to say is hunting, but you might want to try it before you start badmouthing something you have no experience with.

Gunplummer
December 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
From what I have read, CWD was unknown until the mid 80's. I absolutely believe that it was brought into the country with exotics. The other poster is right about how it was spread in the east. So far, here in Pa. the only positive CWD was confirmed at a deer farm.
Being for or against is not a grey area. Either you are or are not. I remember wild pheasants in Pa. and there is not a stocked bird like them. I was sitting on a steep hill bow hunting and some small game guys kicked some out of the swamp below me. They flew into the woods where I was at and started dropping around me. They were hitting the trees trying to fly in the woods. One guy told me two birds followed his truck in the parking lot. They must feed them off trucks when they raise them. These were Game Commission stocked birds. The wild birds I used to hunt were as smart as turkeys. When all hunting gets like that I will quit.

JerryM
December 21, 2011, 02:14 PM
I agree it is not hunting. However, there is a lot of so called hunting that isn't, such as a blind over a feeder.
Jerry

ZeroJunk
December 21, 2011, 02:30 PM
Unlike some on this forum my opinion is not the verdict on what is hunting and what isn't. If a man wants to do it and it's legal I cannot figure out what business it is of mine.

ripnbst
December 21, 2011, 02:48 PM
I could never pay what these places ask to go shoot something they've (basically) chained to a pole at 300 yards for me to shoot at.

What I think places like this should be used for is to raise animals that have good genes and then release "X" into the wild each year so that they might breed with wild animals and get strong genes out there. Or maybe the farm raised and fed animals wouldn't make it out in the wild because they wouldn't know what to do so maybe just trap wild females, artificially inseminate, and release.

Or something similar. I think these farms should be used for bettering the wild population and nothing more. Shooting penned up animals, as has already been said, is not sporting at all through my eyes.

scwhitetail
December 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
There is no way it can be considered hunting. I just don't get it. The only way I could see this being acceptable is 1) someone is disabled and can't hunt but still wants deer meat or 2) training hunting dogs. My best friend owns a cattle farm and It sounds to me like shooting a cow from his kitchen window would be just as much a sport. I don't have a problem with it other than those who do it consider it hunting and bring home far superior trophies they didn't earn. If they called it shooting, I wouldn't have an issue with it.

Pahoo
December 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
It was okay but just not real pheasant hunting.
Go back to the reason you went there, in the first place; no pheasants, in Wisconsin. Here in Iowa, we are faced with the same situation but you can still find pockets of them. These are areas that are kept secret. Most hunters I know, have just given up. However, some occasionally go on canned hunts, just for old time sake. A few years back, I helped guide on such hunts and we had lots of folks from the large cities, who didn't have time to invest in open hunts. You are right in that most were not real hunters but some were. Ten years ago, I suggested to our DRN to close the season, for five years with no success. I understand that South Dakota is seeing few numbers these days. ..... :mad:

Be Safe !!!!

upstate81
December 21, 2011, 03:05 PM
ZeroJunk hit the nail on the head. Who am I to judge? If it stimulates the economy with jobs and money especially in times like these why would I bash something that.

warbirdlover
December 21, 2011, 03:29 PM
If some guys want to do this I don't care. It's when they come around boasting what mighty hunters they are and how they get the good animals and we don't or can't. We had a guy like that at work. Had all these giant trophys. Went all over the world spending money like water on whatever animal he wanted to hunt (he married a well-to-do woman) even though he was an inspector in a factory. He was just "buying" his trophies. It had nothing to do with skill yet he bragged like it did. THIS is what po's me.

Brian Pfleuger
December 21, 2011, 03:42 PM
Unlike some on this forum my opinion is not the verdict on what is hunting and what isn't. If a man wants to do it and it's legal I cannot figure out what business it is of mine.

I agree and, while it's not my cup of tea, it's not a moral issue. It either is or is not moral to kill animals. So long as the kill is "clean", I see no particular distinction as to how it is accomplished.

nate45
December 21, 2011, 04:07 PM
Some people have ridiculous concepts of space and animal behavior. The idea that a wild animal that lives on thousands of acres and is left to its own devices is just as tame as live stock is silly. In fact I've seen wild cattle that had lived their entire life on their own in the brush. A 1200+ pound wild bull is one of the most dangerous animals that can be encountered in the US.

I'd be willing to bet I could put someone in a 100 acre inclosed space of woods, with 20 deer in it, tell them to walk out there and find them and chances are they'd never see one. Provided the deer were left to raise and feed themselves and not hand raised like a pig, or a calf.


I've never shot raised pheasants, but I have shot pen raised bob-white quail and they flushed and flew just as good as wild ones. The quality quail hunting establishments flight train their quail in a 100 yard long pen, but putting a cat in with them. The slow ones don't make it to being set out. :)

Todd1700
December 21, 2011, 05:51 PM
If it stimulates the economy with jobs and money especially in times like these why would I bash something that.


Fine, but you could use that exact reasoning to defend prostitution and the sale of cocaine. They also stimulate the economy with jobs and money.

I don't care for canned hunts but there's no way to make it illegal. At least not without also making it illegal for a farmer to slaughter a hog or a chicken which I would not want to see happen. But it's not hunting and the people who have convinced themselves that it is are in a state of denial.

I just don't get it.

Oh I get it. There is no mystery to me why people do this. In any sport there have always been people who want to cheat. They don't want to learn to be a good hunter and invest the hundreds perhaps thousands of hours it often takes to harvest a trophy of a lifetime type animal. Naaa, to hell with that. That's hard and there's no certainty you will ever achieve it. Lets just shell out 10,000 dollars and skip straight to the assured killing of a tame 170 class buck in a pen part. After all, once they get it home and on their wall no one will know where and under what circumstances they killed it. To me it's like finding a ex NFL player and buying his super bowl ring. Then wearing it around and pretending you once played in a super bowl. Pathetic!

Buzzcook
December 21, 2011, 05:53 PM
It's one of those "depends" moments.

Taking a pheasant and throwing it in the air in front of a hunter: probably not the most sporting thing. Except of course for hunters in wheelchairs and others folks that can't get into the field.

As to the difficulty of hunting on 8000 acre game farm, geez that's a load.
If the owner of the farm can't point you to right where the animals are, you're being ripped off.

Art Eatman
December 21, 2011, 06:44 PM
jimbob, a whitetail generally imprints on an area as "home turf" and if water and food are available, lives out its life in not much over a section of land. A high fence around several thousand acres is not doing anything to restrain that deer that it doesn't do to itself.

The majority of Texas hunting country is such that any spooked deer needs no more than a jump or two to be "unshootable". Trees, brush, cactus, etc.

There are several million acres of south Texas brush country where (without stands and clear-cut lanes) there are only two ways to see a deer: Blind luck is one. The other? If a deer stands up on his hind legs and waves at you.

warbirdlover
December 21, 2011, 06:53 PM
In any sport there have always been people who want to cheat. They don't want to learn to be a good hunter and invest the hundreds perhaps thousands of hours it often takes to harvest a trophy of a lifetime type animal. Naaa, to hell with that. That's hard and there's no certainty you will ever achieve it. Lets just shell out 10,000 dollars and skip straight to the assured killing of a tame 170 class buck in a pen part. After all, once they get it home and on their wall no one will know where and under what circumstances they killed it. To me it's like finding a ex NFL player and buying his super bowl ring. Then wearing it around and pretending you once played in a super bowl. Pathetic!

This is exactly how I feel. Let them do it, I don't care but don't tell me how great a hunter you are. Because, I'll know better. Same as these so called "deer experts" on TV. Take them off the game farms or open land with NO "guide" to lead them to the deer and they'd NEVER get an animal. I don't care how good a shot they are. They couldn't do it. Because they are NOT really hunters.

rickyrick
December 21, 2011, 07:57 PM
I know of a place that has full on hunting blinds lined up maybe 25 to 50yds apart, no vegetation taller than putting green, with purdy raised elk leisurely milling around.



I may not choose to participate in such activities, but zerojunk said it best.

compglock17
December 21, 2011, 07:59 PM
Where I live, the "wild" pheasant population went out generations before me. My grandfather could recall hunting wild birds as a kid, but not post WW2. All my pheasant hunting here has been "canned" by necessity. It is a great way to prep a dog for the yearly trip west and to introduce youth to the sport. Even on our game lands, pheasants are released with regularity. I will only do "canned" hunts at two places. Both put the birds out prior to your arrival and the birds are not marked, unless you ask them to be marked for a new dog perhaps. Ill take my lab two or three times before we head west for the wild ones! I don't "like" it and would much rather have sustainable populations of wild birds to hunt, but we do the best we can with what we got!

phil mcwilliam
December 21, 2011, 08:10 PM
Since game ranches are mainly privately owned, there are huge differences between what they individually offer in game numbers & quality, together with accommodation levels, size of property,number of hunters allowed at one time & how they actually conduct their hunts.
99% of my 35 years of hunting has been free range, which I prefer, but I have also hunted on several large game ranches 160,000 acres to 300,000 acres in size, that could hardly be called "canned hunts". These game ranches were many times in size the home range of the various species of game they contained, with there own river, valley & mountain systems.
When I was in South Africa, I was shown an area that was previously used for a canned hunt of a lion. The area was 100 yards x 100 yards & wire mesh net fence about 15 feet high-similar to a netted in tennis court. The top 4 foot of the fence was angled inwards entangled with razor wire. The "hunter" doesn't even need to enter the enclosure.
Some game ranches offer a hunt that replicates a free range hunt, other game ranches offer what amounts to a canned hunt.

farmerboy
December 21, 2011, 08:29 PM
I'm also 100% against hunting penned deer, hogs , birds anything really. Yes it may stimulate the economy but if you're going to do that why not make a high fence and throw a bunch of politicians I'n and... How many people would pay for that? But no I couldn't get excited with caged animals!

Cowboy_mo
December 21, 2011, 11:03 PM
Well we don't have pheasants in my part of MO and I understand IA and IL now have slim pickings also. So if I want to hunt pheasants, it has to be on a game bird place.

Our native quail population has been pretty much decimated by current farming practices and I don't have a dog and refuse to hunt quail without one because I have lost too many cripples and even dead birds without one, so again if I want to hunt quail I have to go the game farm route.

No I don't think walking onto a farm and picking "the buck you like best" for xxx dollars is hunting but I guess if you have enough $$$$ and want to do it that way, it is your choice.

Now, if you want to hunt a lot of truly wild game IN ABUNDANCE, check out Africa. The 18 hour plane ride isn't much fun but you can get the opportunity to take 5 or more animals for less than it costs for a good trophy elk hunt (in the wild) in the U.S. and the best part is if you decide NOT to shoot an animal, you don't get charged for that animal.

warbirdlover
December 21, 2011, 11:31 PM
I'm okay with game farm bird hunts. I just don't enjoy it like the old days actually hunting corn fields on farms etc. I'll do it again or else sell my O/U shotgun. I don't shoot trap etc anymore. It's the other stuff I dislike.

RevGeo
December 22, 2011, 12:01 PM
Personally I see no problem with legalized prostitution and cocaine:D. I do see a problem with canned hunts such as the buffalo hunt I described in my previous post. I believe such 'sport' violates the spirit of the hunt. It seems that as long as man has hunted there has existed a spiritual outlook towards the animals pursued and reduced to possesion (I love that term). At best an almost worshipful attitude and at worst at least some modicum of respect.

I don't give a rat's @$$ about how much slaughtering animals in such a fashion 'benefits the economy'. In the long run (and perhaps the short as well) it benefits nothing. Nothing at all. All it does is dishonor our sport.
The blood sports are a serious business and they should be treated as such. Even predator/pest control should be approached with an attitude of respect, in my opinion.
The outdoor television programs of the past did not portray the death of the animal. I believe that showed respect for the animals. Nowadays they talk about 'whacking and stacking' and show slo-mo shots of the bullet or arrow striking the animal. Please. I have been a professional musician for my entire life and I am ashamed that someone like Ted Nugent shares my vocation. I find Keith Richards to be a paragon of morality by comparison.

I probably have 10-15 years of active hunting and fishing left in me. When I get to the point that I can no longer go afield for my sport I will quit. I wouldn't dream in a million years of having my son push me and my wheelchair up to a fence so I can kill an animal just to be killing an animal.
If I felt the need for that kind of activity I'd take a job at a slaugher house.

George

warbirdlover
December 22, 2011, 12:20 PM
One other point is that the PETA crew and all the other animal rights nuts could really jump on this and make us all look bad. Just like they do for animal slaughter house!

Old 454
December 22, 2011, 06:42 PM
I am 53 yrs old and can remember going hunting with my father and god father to a lot of farms where they knew the farmer for years. we also would pick wild mushrooms and Asperagus also. Also when we were done hunting we would share the game with the farmer and sit around a shoot the breeze with them, if it was close to a holiday we would bring them a bottle of there favorite beverage.

One problem I have seen is the loss of farm habitat for the game animals also so called hunters going onto farm property(most with out permission) and tearing it up and the farmers get P.O.ed and wont allow any one to hunt on there property any more, and I dont blame them.

Much has changed over the years so alot of bird hunting does take place on game farms, its a shame but much of the farm land that was once great sorces of hunting pleasure is gone, some through loss of habitat and some through stupidity.

jimbob86
December 22, 2011, 06:51 PM
I am 53 yrs old and can remember going hunting with my father and god father to a lot of farms where they knew the farmer for years.

I'm 43, and still hunt like that..... some of these farmers remember me from when I was 6 years old riding around in the county road grader with my grandpa......

.....the day I have to pay to hunt is the day I'll hang it up, and leave it to the money men.....

Rembrandt
December 22, 2011, 07:17 PM
There is a lot about this sport that leaves me scratching my head.....is it more ethical for the game ranch hunter to take an animal with 100% success rate or for the free range hunter who wounds his and fails to recover the animal?


I've found four dead deer on my property this year from free range hunters who wounded and failed to recover....before we get all sanctimonious about who's method is more honorable, let's make sure the job gets done no matter how they're taken.

603Country
December 22, 2011, 08:19 PM
I used to work for a big company that had large ranches leased for hunting, and my coworkers and I took folks hunting. That wasn't our primary job, but somebody had to do the guiding, so the experienced hunters among us were picked to do it. I absolutely loved it. The deer and hogs were wild and in low fenced areas, but the quail were brought in before the season and used to stock the hunting areas. Only about 15% of the quail survived each winter, so stocking was required to have something for the guests to hunt. Except for a few folks that were good shooters, the quail didn't have much to worry about. But, one year we somehow took delivery of a huge batch of quail that weren't in the least wild. Whenever we'd stop the jeep, the quail would come running and stand around our feet, waiting for us to feed them. We just laughed, and nobody shot any of them (at least not any of my guests). The president of the company did put out a memo saying very strongly that "no quail with even one foot on the ground, even if he was on tippy toes, was to be shot, on penalty of the guide being fired".

And... we were running after Blue Quail one lovely blue sky day, and one of the guests (an obese guy that was doing his best to catch up to those quail), stepped in a hole and lost his balance and sat on a cactus (we were in South Texas). His backside looked like a porcupine. His particular host was a woman (this was back in the 80's) and she came over to me as the guest was hitting some high notes that even Roy Orbison never hit and suggested that since this was a guy, that I should pull the cactus spines out of his tail. Well...I told her that since this was the era of female equality in all things, if it was her guest, it was her job. My guest and I sat and had some coffee as she spent a good 45 minutes bent over this enormous and very white backside pulling spines. I'm all for equality, and have been since the 80's.

Did I wander off topic? Sorry.

oneounceload
December 22, 2011, 08:39 PM
I've never shot raised pheasants, but I have shot pen raised bob-white quail and they flushed and flew just as good as wild ones.

G;ad that worked for you - pen-raised quail in FL have to get kicked in the butt to get them to move. Don't use a flusher, or you will never get a shot as the dog will catch them alive and bring them back to you.

I miss the wild quail hunting I did out West - about the only drawback to living here now

nate45
December 22, 2011, 08:48 PM
Like I said, its because they haven't been flight trained. Its like the difference between the different batches of quail 603country wrote about. The ones that didn't take off and fly, weren't flight trained.

The way thats done is with a hundred yard long flight pen. Ever so often a hungry cat is placed in the pen. The quail learn to run and fly, or else...

mo84
December 23, 2011, 08:28 AM
I agree that the ranch hunts is not real hunting. the deer just arent scared of humans like wild animals. I did hunt in milford once though and you could shoot at them deer and they literally just stand there. I would imagine that is what its like on the ranch hunts. they should try to figure a way to teach the deer to be afraid of humans on these ranches and it would be more like real hunting as some of the ranchs are pretty big.

reloader28
December 23, 2011, 09:08 AM
I will never hunt that way.
But if they want to pay for it, thats their business.

Personally, I put it in the same category as blind hunting. If it was up to me, I would outlaw EVERY stand and blind in the country. I hate those things.
I would make everyone spot and stalk hunt or else you dont hunt. There would be no sitting on your butt and WAITING for a deer to maybe stumble by. That is not hunting.

But thats just my opinion. It means no more than some of you against the game farms. Its just the way certain people do things.

HiBC
December 23, 2011, 09:12 AM
As far as the deer and elk hunts,as I understand it,a large part of the CWD outbreak across the country came from near my home;Northern Colorado,a bit east of me.It had to do with an elk ranching operation that shipped CWD carrying elk across the country.IMO,deer,elk,etc do not belong in pens or behind tall fences as livestock.

On pen raised birds;agreed,its not much like hunting.I see one decent reason for it.The dogs.Good wild bird hunting is hard to come by.
Between holding down a job,limited access to good private land hunting,and a lot of public hunting land that is devoid of game.The point is,the bird dog.The dog's passion is bird hunting.

If the dog only hunts wild birds,it may only go on point a few times a year.

Its not so bad if ,six times a year that dog gets a few chukar,or quail,or pheasants that are farmed and planted.

No,as the shooter its not the same.It's not hunting.It does make a dog happy.

The birds are good on the table.In the end,its a more honest connection to your food than skinless,boneless chicken breasts under plastic at the grocery store.

You know,if you eat meat,killing gets done.You can hire someone at the slaughterhouse to do it,out of sight,out of mind...but,never the less,it gets done.Thats OK,to hire it done.Just buy that tube of beef burger at Safeway.

But,really,is it right to disdain someone who is part of the process ?I have no problem with someone shooting a buffalo with his Sharps.There is something honest about killing your own chicken,hog,or Angus.Kill clean,and eat it.

Boils down to:Choose what is right for you,but lets not get too judgemental.

Gunplummer
December 23, 2011, 09:24 AM
Now and then some one tosses in a post that says if it is legal, then it is O.K. Somebody decided what was ethical or there would not be any game laws at all. Attitudes like that almost wiped out the buffalo. A while back (Some of you have to remember this) a game farm was shut down for selling hunts over the Internet. I mean over the Internet. You literally killed an animal over the Net. That became illegal in a hurry. Seems like there was some ethics/law melding there. The hardest part about ethical hunting is where to draw the line. What is tradition in one area is looked down on in other areas. That is fairly obvious on this forum with discussions about baiting and using trail cams.

ZeroJunk
December 23, 2011, 10:01 AM
Comparing wiping out the buffalo to game farm hunts is a little bit of a stretch don't you think.

I like these guys who live in the plains talking about somebody who has a 1700 acre thicket stalking something.:confused:

Brian Pfleuger
December 23, 2011, 10:12 AM
I don't see anybody implying that the ONLY criteria is legal/illegal.

We're not talking about wiping out a species so there's no discussion of the ethics involved with wiping out a species.

We're talking about a few people killing a few animals which number in the millions nationwide and whose population is expanding overall and out of control in some localities.

As such, the ethical question is only if it is or is not ethical to kill an animal. I'm confident that the answer to that question is pretty universally agreed upon in this forum.

It's not "hunting" to jam a steel rod through a cow's skull either but it results in an instant kill and it's not unethical if the animal is used for food.

This is the same situation. I don't consider it "hunting" to shoot an animal in a high fence area that can not escape.

However, it is not unethical if it is not illegal.

jimbob86
December 23, 2011, 10:18 AM
If it was up to me, I would outlaw EVERY stand and blind in the country.

If it was up to me...... I would not outlaw the game farms: landowners are free to do with their property what they want to..... I just reserve the right to point out the "fish in a barrel" aspect of it..... you can not and should not attmept to legislate morality. Laws are there to prevent damage to others' rights and property. You are free to pay to shoot your own cow, if you want to..... or should be.... but!

....when your activities damage others' rights and property (game animals belong to "The People of the State of Nebraska" 'round here, and introducing CWD infected animals from wherever is damaging my right to hunt), well then, there has to be a law.

ZeroJunk
December 23, 2011, 11:47 AM
when your activities damage others' rights and property (game animals belong to "The People of the State of Nebraska" 'round here, and introducing CWD infected animals from wherever is damaging my right to hunt), well then, there has to be a law.


There probably is. NC has had laws pertaining to this for some time.

We are even restricted as hunters as to what body parts we can bring back form other states, how it has to be cleaned, labeled, etc.

Brian Pfleuger
December 23, 2011, 12:11 PM
Personally, I put it in the same category as blind hunting. If it was up to me, I would outlaw EVERY stand and blind in the country. I hate those things.
I would make everyone spot and stalk hunt or else you dont hunt.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Where we hunt, there are small blocks of land ranging from 1-40 acres.

Thousands and thousands of people own parcels less than 15, even 10, acres that are the only places they can hunt.

How exactly does "spot and stalk" work on 10 acres of land, with 6 of it being field?

There are "personal preferences" and there are opinions like this, which are just beyond description without violating every forum rule we have.

Asinine. Absolutely ridiculous.

ZeroJunk
December 23, 2011, 12:17 PM
Peetza, not only that, but I have a place you can walk in a stright line in any direction for a mile and except for one power line and a couple of creek bottoms that weren't timbered you can't see a deer if it is 30 feet away. Of course you can hear plenty of them.:)

Art Eatman
December 23, 2011, 12:39 PM
reloader28 apparently pays no attention to the idea that terrain and vegetation control the methodology of one's style of hunting--no matter how often explanations have been provided.

nate45
December 23, 2011, 02:09 PM
Its hilarious reading opinions coming out of Nebraska, Wyoming, etc about how people should hunt in Southwest Texas, or Central/Western New York, etc.

I know you never see any in big parts of Nebraska, Wyoming, Eastern Colorado, etc but look up forest and brush the imagines might surprise you.

http://www.photos.windmillpro.com/Freer/Images/freer.77.jpg
South Texas Brush Country

It would be fun to watch the 'real' hunters still hunt in that. Or take your little Brittany out for a quail hunt.

http://www.ranchbrokers.com/images/stories/properties/Laramie-Plains-1.jpg
Land outside Laramie, WY

How do you guys 'stalk' the out there anyway? Disguised as a fence post, or a hay bale maybe?

I want to say that the experience of some posters is obviously limited. For example, to try and compare people who lease hunting rights on large tracts of land, to someone who shoots a pen raised animal in a relatively small enclosure is ridiculous.

It is also ridiculous to compare going around with your hat in your hand, hoping some kind rancher/farmer will let you hunt for free, to people who lease/own large tracts of land.

I'm sorry some people have never gotten to experience a first class quail plantation, with flight trained birds, or hunting deer on a South Texas sendero, etc. However, your lack of knowledge, experience and funds should not preclude you from investigating what its like, or taking the word of those who have been there.

I've hunted elk and mule deer in Colorado, deer, hogs, quail and turkeys in South Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Southern Illinois, with a rifle, shotgun, bow and handgun at various times. Different places have different methods that work when hunting, or are local tradition. One size doesn't fit all.

tl;dr Trying to compare the situation outlined in the OP, to large ranches and properly run raised bird hunting farms is ludicrous to the nth degree.

603Country
December 23, 2011, 02:11 PM
I used to do a lot of deer stalking back when I was young. I was food hunting, and the need to fill the freezer was important to me and my little family when I was in my early 20's to early 30's. These days I'm not so concerned with killing a deer as I am with just peacefully watching (from my box blinds) nature go by. Of course I'm not so peaceful when a coyote or pig shows up, but 99% of the deer get a pass. If some of you guys want to stalk deer, go for it. If you want to drop out of a tree and kill them with a knife, I think you should do that too (but call me so I can watch, and then take you to the emergency room). You do it your way and please allow me to do it my way (with coffee, a heater, a good book, and a swivel chair).

Now, to get back on topic, I'm not fond of the canned hunts. Back a ways in this chat I mentioned that I used to host hunts for my corporation, but the deer, pigs, coyotes, and dove were completely wild (I'll not mention the quail). I don't consider that to be canned hunting. In contrast, I once accepted an offer to go pig hunting, and once I got to the ranch they put us in an elevated seat in a jeep and then a cowboy on a horse ran pigs in front of us. That was a canned hunt. I was shocked. It might have been fun for the city boys, but I thought it was awful. But...is that really so much different from somebody setting up and shooting gophers or whatever from 300 yards. I'm not criticizing gopher shooting, but I am suggesting that whatever you do, when viewed from someone else's eyes, might seem terrible, terrific, boring, unethical, dangerous, sexually stimulating (yes, I saw it all while hosting), or whatever.

jimbob86
December 23, 2011, 02:25 PM
How do you guys 'stalk' the out there anyway? Disguised as a fence post, or a hay bale maybe?


That land is not as flat as it looks, and I have done some crawling to get close* to deer before ...... there are also ways to disguise youself- do a search for "cowboarding" .... I have seen guys going after snow geese like that, and heard of successful archery hunts using a cowboard......





*and "close" is a relative term out there..... and is the reason folks prefer flat shooting cartridges ...... that and the unrelenting wind.

nate45
December 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
Flat shooting rifle? Well, thats not 'real' hunting.

Unless someone is wearing only a loin cloth and using a longbow, its just not authentic. :p

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 02:39 PM
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Where we hunt, there are small blocks of land ranging from 1-40 acres.

Thousands and thousands of people own parcels less than 15, even 10, acres that are the only places they can hunt.

How exactly does "spot and stalk" work on 10 acres of land, with 6 of it being field?

There are "personal preferences" and there are opinions like this, which are just beyond description without violating every forum rule we have.

Asinine. Absolutely ridiculous.

peetzakilla

+1 on that! Wait until you get too old to go hiking all over and if on small plots of wooded land walk all around and screw up everyone else's hunting. See how many of your fellow hunters appreciate you. "I do it this way so that HAS to be the only way to do it!"

Yeah, right. You'd never kill a deer in Wisconsin.

Oh, and here is a picture of my blind... :D

rickyrick
December 23, 2011, 03:29 PM
With all the prefab stuff out now, I didn't think people made their own blinds anymore. Beautiful country, wish I had woods like that here

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 04:50 PM
I built it out of 1/2" treated plywood and 2x4's for $500. I would have liked to buy one of the new fiberglass ones but for one this size (4' x 8') it would have been over $1000. I have indoor/outdoor carpeting in it, a 25 gallon propane tank and heater on it, comfortable swivel bar stool and a ceiling light. My little slice of Wisconsin gun hunting Heaven I guess. :D

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 05:01 PM
I know I'm getting away from the point of this thread but here's some pics of the hunting area around the blind.... 120 acres of oak woods on hilly terrain surrounded by marsh which is surrounded by corn fields. If the corn is cut we have chances at deer! Acorns all over the place! And they are white oaks so the deer love the acorns.

mapsjanhere
December 23, 2011, 05:05 PM
WBL, broadband internet or just dial-up in your hut?

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 05:07 PM
Here's the biggest ones taken from the stand closest to mine on opening day this year. He came from my direction... 20" inside...

Just cell phone!! :D

the blur
December 23, 2011, 09:27 PM
I'm a NY hunter. it's fair chase only, no bait, no nothing except fair chase. most days the deer out smart me. or sniff me out. but I'm hunting.
this year I'm hungry.

I thought about doing the bear over bait in Canada, or the hogs at bay in FL with dogs. never was that thrilled about the idea of it, so I havn't done either.

If I really want vension, I can do the $400 fenced doe, but I'd never go for a $10000 trophy buck. I call that shooting someones pet.

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 09:58 PM
The baiting laws in Wisconsin are so restrictive it doesn't pay. I'm in an oak woods with natural acorns all over the ground. I don't need to bait anyway. I know baiting black bear is probably the only way you'd ever get them but watching them do it on TV doesn't turn my crank at all. I would probably feel the same about building a "feeding station" for deer and sitting over it. I don't care if others do it and it is allowed it would just not be for me.

Now if I want to REALLY be a hunter I've got to learn how to spot and stalk those darn bucks in the thick Wisconsin woods! In my bright orange, glowing, blinking, flashing blaze orange clothes!

Gunplummer
December 23, 2011, 10:06 PM
A pretty good thread. I think it is good to talk about the different areas that are hunted. I have been around the country a bit and have seen how different the terrain is. That is why there is such heated discussions about the "proper" rifle to use. Add in local tradition and there really can be some difference of opinion. I suppose some fenced hunts are O.K., but they are fenced. If it held no advantage there would be no fence. The fenced areas around me don't even have to follow the state Game Laws so I can not consider them "Fairchase". A couple of us Pa. boys camp out for a couple days and hunt West Virginia every year. We sit around the campfire and laugh about guys like Warbirdlover. That is perfect terrain for walking up on a deer. Works good in the coal regions in Pa. also. Different areas/different cultures.

warbirdlover
December 23, 2011, 10:25 PM
We sit around the campfire and laugh about guys like Warbirdlover.

HEY!! :D

Gunplummer
December 23, 2011, 10:31 PM
And I sit around the campfire in Pink Crocs (Very comfortable and they were cheap). I just don't care.

jimbob86
December 23, 2011, 10:36 PM
My 12 y.o. niece sits in the camper in her pink crocs, listening to her old man and me tell hunting stories over an adult beveridge or 3......

Art Eatman
December 24, 2011, 12:03 AM
Since we've long wandered away from the issue of game farms--of which there really aren't all that many outside the world of bird-shooting--enough for now...