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View Full Version : $1000 Wilson Combat 870 vs $270 870 Express


checkmyswag
December 8, 2011, 10:21 PM
So, I've been looking for a very specific 870 police model and cannot find it. Then I came across the Wilson Combat Scattergun Tech 870. Can get them newish for around $1000.

However, whilst at Academy tonight, looked at a $270 Express 870. To be fair, I'd want to add a different stock and forearm flashlight to this.

I know the Wilson is better, but is it $600 better?

the rifleer
December 8, 2011, 10:22 PM
nope.

upstate81
December 9, 2011, 07:32 AM
Not at all

Spats McGee
December 9, 2011, 09:22 AM
I'm sure that the Wilson is a fine weapon, but I'm going to say no. For $730, you can do a lot of stuff to the 870 Express, and still have money for ammo.

Silent Bob
December 9, 2011, 09:39 AM
I'd take a Remington 870 Police over either a Wilson or the Express.

WVsig
December 9, 2011, 09:40 AM
No not too me. For my money a used 870 Police mag was the right choice. I am not kicking down doors for a living. I put a Knoxx stock on it for awhile but then took that off and put a simple speed feed on it . For me the 870 is a house gun and the 870 police I have more than does the trick for the well under $200 I paid for it.

checkmyswag
December 9, 2011, 01:48 PM
Can get a $270 870 express. Add $100 specops knoxx stock for $125 and a foregrip w light for $150 or so. Then will have around $600 shotgun. But no ghost ring sights. Lesser finish. Lesser internal components.

WVsig
December 9, 2011, 02:11 PM
But does that really matter? Seriously again if you are not kicking in doors for a living what does those upgrades really get you?

checkmyswag
December 9, 2011, 03:32 PM
Didn't say I need any of them. Definitely dealing in the want realm.

jmr40
December 9, 2011, 03:36 PM
I'd buy 2 of the Express guns and lots of ammo with a $1,000 budget.

Dave McC
December 9, 2011, 03:55 PM
Wilson does good work, but much of the package can be done at home by a non smith.

Get the Express and 500 rounds of target ammo. Shoot it up. Repeat until proficient. At that point you'll know what your shotgun "Needs" and what's just bling....

shortwave
December 9, 2011, 05:15 PM
^^^THIS^^^

checkmyswag
December 9, 2011, 06:19 PM
OK, I'm on board. Too much $ for the Wilson Scattergun.

Trying to figure out what I need and if the 870 Express is decent to build on at
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=471206

Hal
December 11, 2011, 06:53 AM
I know the Wilson is better, but is it $600 better?

Yes - it is....

However, you won't know that until you turn around and sell it.

A $270 Express is always going to be just that. A $270 Express.
You can add whatever "goodies" you want to it, but, it will never say "Wilson" on it.
Heck, it might even be "better" than a Wilson,,,but,,,it will still not be a Wilson.

Slugo
December 11, 2011, 07:48 AM
Wilson is the classic snake oil salesman. Look at his line of way overpriced BS 1911's...

Rugerismisticness
December 11, 2011, 08:58 AM
I agree with Slugo, the WC guns aren't Baers or Browns (or brownbaers lol:p). An 870 can only go so far, at 1000$, your better off buying an SLP or 930 SPX.

NYCShooter
December 11, 2011, 09:32 AM
An 870 can only go so far, at 1000$, your better off buying an SLP or 930 SPX.

Not a fair comparison; the 870 is a pump the SLP and 930SPX semi-auto's. Also, I wouldn't pay anything close to $1,000 for a 930SPX and, if I were going to pay well over $1,000 for an SLP, I would rather spring for an M4.

Newton24b
December 11, 2011, 09:47 AM
it comes down to this pure and simple

1. do you want the stupid logo?
2. do ou actually think its worth the money?
3. you do know that colt made over 100 design changes to the model 1873 SAA over its production run, and because of that you cant say the modern colt clone is more accurate in dimension to the originals then a uberti made clone.

confirmed shooter
December 11, 2011, 09:52 AM
buy the 870, fix it up yourself and you will know it from the inside out. you will have more fun and really, how often do you use a home defense gun any way:D

SoilworK777
December 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
If it were me, I'd replace the mag tube spring and follower.

I'd also go for the one that holds 7 rounds, over the 4 rounder.

Most new Express models are a little rough. Burrs along contact points will smooth out with use, or you can have a little fun and get familiar with your new shotgun and remove them manually. Using steel wool in the chamber might be worth your while.

Luke Flupper
December 11, 2011, 02:41 PM
Granted it may not say Wilson and therefore not have resale value. However My self built 870 express rocks. The time spent researching then modifying it was part of the package for me. There are some cool things left to try but $ for $ I would stack mine against the average guy using a Wilson or scatergun any day.

One piece of advice I had to learn the hard way. When adding mag extension I had issues with the Vang shell follower beating up the shotgun. I have swapped from the stainless one to a softer aluminum and painted it flourescent green. I love it an it does slam my gun so hard. The stainless follower with the extra spring was beginning to wear on my gun.

essohbe
December 11, 2011, 10:47 PM
If you're going to spend $1K on an autoloader then consider a Saiga and reconfigure it yourself. Out of $1K you'll have $ left for the expensive 20rd drum mags.

NYCShooter
December 11, 2011, 10:51 PM
If you're going to spend $1K on an autoloader then consider a Saiga and reconfigure it yourself. Out of $1K you'll have $ left for the expensive 20rd drum mags.

:rolleyes: The OP said he was looking to purchase an 870.

Rugerismisticness
December 12, 2011, 05:19 AM
I agree, for 1000$ there's no point in throwing cash at a pump when excellent semis are around for less that will still shuck em' faster than the most expensive pump shotgun.

Have a look at the semiauto options; mainly the SX3/slp action, 930SPX, Benelli M2, 1100, and maybe think of building up a field gun.

model18
December 12, 2011, 05:34 AM
bought this early model express that was a mess. Someone that thought they knew what they were doing butchered the stock & barrel. After replacing both, I still have less than $150 in it. Save your $$$ and do it yourself.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z309/glz3/RemEx12.jpg

Slugo
December 12, 2011, 08:00 AM
NICE!!

shortwave
December 12, 2011, 08:20 AM
Yes, very nice.

model18
December 12, 2011, 08:38 AM
thanks, guys. I like to keep it simple w/o a bunch of bolt on crap!

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 10:17 AM
Yes - it is....

However, you won't know that until you turn around and sell it.

A $270 Express is always going to be just that. A $270 Express.
You can add whatever "goodies" you want to it, but, it will never say "Wilson" on it.
Heck, it might even be "better" than a Wilson,,,but,,,it will still not be a Wilson.


Really who cares if it says Wilson on it. It will not hold its value any better than any other 870 pump gun. The Express is a $270 or so gun and if you shoot it & maintain it you will be able to sell if for $150 to $175 depending on wear.

Take that $1000 Wilson and shoot it and maintain it and if you turn around to sell it you will be lucky to get $500 for it. Things on the high end/custom end do not hold their value as much as people think. The market for standard guns is much larger than semi-custom guns like the Wilson 870 and resale prices reflect that.

jimbob86
December 12, 2011, 10:26 AM
Really who cares if it says Wilson on it.

Folk with more money than sense.

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 10:34 AM
Folk with more money than sense.


Yeah I guess. I can see picking up a Wilson 1911 or havings Wilson do some custom work on a 1911 but everytime I look at the cost vs my go to guy I simply cannot justfy the price.

I can get custom work without the Wilson name, from a shop run by a member of the US Pistolsmith Guild, even using Wilson parts for about 50% of what Wilson would charge me so I never end up using them.

I certainly would not bother with Wilson on an 870 Police. IMHO they are the best value in defensive shotguns. They do not exhibit the flaws you see in the express models. They have cleaner actions from the factory and IMHO feel more robust and the upcharge is reasonable.

Hal
December 12, 2011, 10:43 AM
Really who cares if it says Wilson on it. It will not hold its value any better than any other 870 pump gun
Prove it...
The ball's in your court.
Let's see some cold hard facts to back that up, not some speculations.

Let's not use a plain $270 Express against a Wilson either.
You have to factor in the add ons to the $270 Express and if applicable, any gunsmith charges.

PS - This is far from the first time a question like this has come up...
One previous poster had the cold hard truth explained to them that - while they had put all the same "goodies" on their 870, it was just that an 870 with goodies.
The person that broke the news to them told them that at the gunshop she worked in, the Wilson would always be a Wilson. Their 870 would be an 870 and sorry, we can't give you anywhere near what you put into the goodies.

oldguy870
December 12, 2011, 10:44 AM
You don't even need the police model. It is the same gun as the express. The only difference is a few $5 parts and a lot of marketing.

Fargazer
December 12, 2011, 11:07 AM
I purchased an 870 Express (20 gauge), and did the following for relatively little money:

replaced extractor with police model
replaced carrier dog spring with police model
replaced recoil pad with Remington Supercell
installed Elzetta flashlight and mount
replaced mag extension with Scattergun Tech model (Wilson) for the stronger spring

The first three cost me less than $30. The flashlight cost me around $200, the replacement mag extension around $70. That's a LOT of change left over compared to buying the Wilson.

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 11:36 AM
You don't even need the police model. It is the same gun as the express. The only difference is a few $5 parts and a lot of marketing.

This might be true these days but when I look at my 870 Police vs a 870 Express the differences are clear. When I bought mine they were still using the ISS safety so the extension tubes were different. These are no longer being used. It is my understanding that currently the recievers for express, Police and wingmaster are the same. This was not always the case. To me this is pretty sad and is an example of the cheapening of the product in order to achieve greater economy of scale. Remmy has cheapened the Police and Wingmasters which is also why I often buy used.

The big difference in the express and the Police these days is the finish. Park vs Matte. The express has a plastic trigger assembly plate and group. It also uses a MIM extractor. So yes currently you are talking about a few parts and few $$ but that is not what you are really paying for IMHO.

The real difference IMHO is the finish work on the gun. The Police and the wingmasters have a smoother action becuse they have had a little more hands time at the factory. Most of this can be corrected by the end user but having it right from the factory is nice IMHO. For some this is not worth it but since I spend my money and you spend yours UMMV... LOL

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 11:43 AM
Prove it...
The ball's in your court.
Let's see some cold hard facts to back that up, not some speculations.

Let's not use a plain $270 Express against a Wilson either.
You have to factor in the add ons to the $270 Express and if applicable, any gunsmith charges.

PS - This is far from the first time a question like this has come up...
One previous poster had the cold hard truth explained to them that - while they had put all the same "goodies" on their 870, it was just that an 870 with goodies.
The person that broke the news to them told them that at the gunshop she worked in, the Wilson would always be a Wilson. Their 870 would be an 870 and sorry, we can't give you anywhere near what you put into the goodies.


Hal look around on GB, Auction arms, Guns america and classified on forums and you will see that Wilson shotguns priced over $500 to $600 depending on config simply do not sell. They sit while 870 express, 870 wingmasters & 870 Police sell.

Yes absolutely if you add a ton of stuff onto a 870 express you are not going to get your money back. If you put $2000 into a custom Colt by Wilson you are not going to get your money back. You will be lucky to get 50% of your investment back. If you buy a 870 Express and put $300 into is you can expect to get back about $325 to $350 out of it. About 70% of the base gun plus 50% of the upgrades.

Now lets take that Wilson. You paid $1000+ and again you will be lucky to get $600....

That is a pretty straight up apples to apples comparision. So please explain to me again why I need the Wilson name on my Remington receiver..... :cool:

TheKlawMan
December 12, 2011, 12:28 PM
One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred. You are correct about the Parkerized finish on the police. One police armorer sells police departments guns based on the Express on the Police and if you get an Express he can have it Parkerized. Google AIPI Tactical.

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 12:44 PM
One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred.

Yeah that is a matter of preference. Some people like the plastic because it does not scratch and will not rust. I prefer the steel. I can see it both ways.

Hal
December 12, 2011, 02:25 PM
Ok - here's the cold hard facts/prices..
Taking all the features from the Wilson Border Patrol and putting together what's needed to bring a stock 870 Express to that.

$ 170.00 parkerize
$ 45.00 extension tube
$ 120.00 sights
$ 75.00 butt stock
$ 30.00 foreend
$ 15.00 jumbo head safety
$ 45.00 sling
$ 12.00 spring and follower kit

$ 15.00 swivel and mount
--------------------------------------
$ 527.00

Add the cost of a new 870 to that:- using an arbitray figure of $268.00 - since I couldn't find on anywhere less than $319.00 online. But hey, it's Christmas and sales go on all the time.

$ 795

Wiilson Combat Border Patrol
$ 1135.00

Difference - $340

while 870 express, 870 wingmasters & 870 Police sell.
I agree 100% with that - however none of those three compare apples to apples with a Wilson Border Patrol. The Express is agood solid basic gun, the Wingmaster is a thing of beauty and awe and the police is a police.

Yes absolutely if you add a ton of stuff onto a 870 express you are not going to get your money back.
The actual cost difference between a Wilson and a no name built up using the same parts is $295.00.

Assuming you can get back 50% on each...
Which BTW, I think the Wilson will return more than 50%.
I also think the stock Express is going to lose a lot of value due to the parkerized & add ons seldom return much more than a token - 30% at best and more like 25%...

The Wilson will be $572 and the no name will be $397.

shortwave
December 12, 2011, 03:08 PM
Hal,

I think your $572 figure is $45 to high. You added the $45 sling in twice.

So, bottomline, the cost difference between the two would actually be $340.

NYCShooter
December 12, 2011, 03:16 PM
One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred.

The Police never came with a 10 lb. trigger (sear) spring. It was 7-8 lb, and it was for police liability issues and nothing else. However, several years ago Remington began using the same 4-4 1/2 lb sear spring in all 870's, including the Police. I have owned a couple of older, used Police, and have always swapped out the heavier spring for the "normal" version.

You are correct, the plastic trigger guard on the Express is actually more durable than the pressed aluminum version on the Police.

oldguy870
December 12, 2011, 03:19 PM
$ 170.00 parkerize (not necessary)
$ 45.00 extension tube (factory guns have one)
$ 120.00 sights (Bad idea. Too slow and could get you killed at close range)
$ 75.00 butt stock (not necessary)
$ 30.00 foreend (not necessary)
$ 15.00 jumbo head safety (not necessary and dumb)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 12.00 spring and follower kit (can get at Brownells)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 15.00 swivel and mount (not necessary)

There is no difference in the action of a police, a wingmaster, and an express. They are the same gun.

Dave McC
December 12, 2011, 03:28 PM
Guys,a brief interlude in the Mine IS Better dispute going on here.....

A box stock 870 of ANY flavor is an awesome weapon. It's limited by the operator, not vice versa.

Sure, the right bellsnwhistles can help a little, but most of us would benefit more from a few cases more of ammo through our tools, not another bolt on gimcrack.

Conscientiously apply a set of wear marks to your choice of shotgun. Get the stock fitting you, and buy more ammo than most Central American revolutions need.

Like my good friend Lee Lapin says.....

" Mindset, skilllset, then toolset"...

TxFlyFish
December 12, 2011, 03:30 PM
You guys shoulda seen price on the nighthawk 870

NYCShooter
December 12, 2011, 03:30 PM
(not necessary and dumb)

You mean, of course, "not necessary and dumb" in your opinion. Others may differ. For example, IMO, I consider the oversized head safety a necessity on an 870.

shortwave
December 12, 2011, 04:08 PM
Conscientiously apply a set of wear marks on your choice of shotgun...

:D

Best statement yet.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm usually more comfortable around a guy with a base model gun that has these 'wear marks' then a guy with a 'star wars' gun without them.

Hal
December 12, 2011, 04:12 PM
I think your $572 figure is $45 to high. You added the $45 sling in twice.

So, bottomline, the cost difference between the two would actually be $340.
Shortwave - thank you for pointing out my error.
I corrected the post.


Oldguy,
Your comments and opinions do not follow the topic.
The discussion isn't what you think is or isn't needed.
It's about the cost of a Wislon and a stock express with all the same features.

Dave,
Guys,a brief interlude in the Mine IS Better dispute going on here.....
Excuse me - but - I don't think the Wilson is better than someone else's. No way no how. I don't even like the damned thing! I wouldn't keep one even if someone gave it to me.
OTOH - Neither would I spend anything to change my $249.00 870 Express either. Box stock it's fine for me.
The orignal question was is the 1000$ Wilson 600$ better than the 270$ Express.

My answer still stands as - yes, but, only if/when you sell it.

TheKlawMan
December 12, 2011, 05:03 PM
You might want to take a look at what JD at AIPPI tactical has to say about building your 870. For HD he is all for a 20 gauge, feels that ghost ring sights can get you killed, and has nothing against the basic 870 the OP found for $270. http://www.aiptactical.com/Build_Your_Weapon.html

You may also want to take a look at the video linked to that page.

TxFlyFish
December 12, 2011, 05:13 PM
The one gun that I have regretted buying and sold at a loss to a friend is a VERY reputable custom race Benelli M2 worth $2300. IMHO just get the 870 off the rack ...it really is just a shotgun

oldguy870
December 12, 2011, 05:59 PM
Actually, my comments are spot on. Wilson adds a bunch of marginal stuff that is not needed and does not contribute to the usefulness of a shotgun for fighting purposes. Things like ghost rings sights actually make the gun less useful, not more useful. Aippi is absolutely right about shotgun sights.

This is about the wise use of money spent on a fighting shotgun. Therefore, a $1000 Wilson 870 is a waste of money.

LSnSC
December 12, 2011, 06:22 PM
Ive got an 870 Express thats about 15 years old. Its been submerged in salt water, had a muddly lab stomp all over it and lived in the bottom of a duck boat for weeks on end with little less than an occasional hosing off and oiling. Its shot God only knows how many shells and killed about every type of game that can be killed without a hiccup. Ive shot 25's in trap and skeet with it, killed 5 deer in about 30 minutes on deer control hunt, killed turkeys, killed hogs, shot limits of ducks, doves, and geese. My youngest is still shooting ducks with it. If I needed a shotgun for survival, I would choose it over my 1000 dollar Berettas any day. Hard to imagine anyone thinking they could improve on that record for any amount of money.

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 06:29 PM
$ 170.00 parkerize (not necessary)
$ 45.00 extension tube (factory guns have one)
$ 120.00 sights (Bad idea. Too slow and could get you killed at close range)
$ 75.00 butt stock (not necessary)
$ 30.00 foreend (not necessary)
$ 15.00 jumbo head safety (not necessary and dumb)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 12.00 spring and follower kit (can get at Brownells)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 15.00 swivel and mount (not necessary)

There is no difference in the action of a police, a wingmaster, and an express. They are the same gun.

I agree with a lot of what is in this post. These days the difference between the different model 870s is not what it used to be.

I have a pretty basic setup which works for me.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/rellascout/870P.gif

Used 870 Police I paid $175
Knoxx Spec Opps $50
Wilson Tube 870 Extension tube with follower $50
Houge Handall $10

Total: $285

I used to have a Speedfeed stock on it but sold that replaced it with youth stock for short length of pull but ended up with the Knoxx setup which I pick up used. Still have the youth stock somewhere I think LOL. Does the trick for a home defense gun anyone in the house can pickup and run.

oldguy870
December 12, 2011, 07:03 PM
I hunt waterfowl with my 28" 870 Express. It has worked wet, muddy, and even with junk in the action. They are simple to operate, disassemble and clean. They do every thing you could want from a shotgun.

I have 18" factory barrels for my stock express guns for home defense. It takes seconds to convert a hunting gun to a home defense gun. I prefer no mag extension because the gun handles better for me that way.

I also have a nice Wingmaster I use for upland hunting. The truth is that it shoots exactly like my Express. The Wingmaster has a different barrel profile. But, both actions feel the same. The only practical difference is cosmetics.

The 870 is one of the best values in firearms a person can find. They just work without strapping a bunch of useless gadgets on them. Less is more.

If you need a project because you are bored and need something to work on, buy Legos or a model car kit.

abelacres
December 12, 2011, 07:17 PM
WVsig how much did you pay for the Tatical Kitty Cat?

WVsig
December 12, 2011, 07:22 PM
All 19lbs of him came for free.... LOL

RsqVet
December 13, 2011, 04:12 PM
I personally prefer the 870 police guns less to mess with or undo to get them where I want them. For an express I would look used, I have seen some in the 200 dollar area at pawn. That is a lot of gun for very little dollars.

If I saw a mint Wilson 870 used at the price of a new 870 p I would think about the Wilson just to have it, they are good sound guns but not worth it at MSRP to me.

I say thus based on my observation that the Wilson delivers nothing more in the box than an 870p. It is not tighter, smoother better fitted or more reliable than a 870p most of which can be had with whatever bits you want from the factrory or have these added in a matter of minutes. So why spend the cash.

Now 1911's would be another ball of wax, there are few factory 1911's that will come close to the fit of a semi-custom like Wilson. Of course Wilson is the most expensive of the semi-custom guys, so there are better values out there in 1911 's as well. Guess someone has to pay for all the wilson ads and marketing.

shortwave
December 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
All 19lbs of him came for free...LOL

...and he doesn't look one bit impressed to be in the pics. :D

WVsig
December 13, 2011, 08:53 PM
...and he doesn't look one bit impressed to be in the pics.

No doubt... he is saying what the what.

I would have totally setup my shotgun differently.

Only someone with really short arms needs a 13" length of pull. LOL :eek:

Dave McC
December 13, 2011, 09:27 PM
Actually, a 13" LOP is often preferred by folks who wear body armor or are on the smaller side.

I'm a behemoth, and I can make 13" work, though I prefer a bit more.

The standard stock works better most of the time, my wingshooter 870 goes to 15" and works better.

A defensive shotgun is used more like a rifle, though,and being stocked like a rifle is no handicap.

WVsig
December 13, 2011, 10:29 PM
Actually, a 13" LOP is often preferred by folks who wear body armor or are on the smaller side.

I'm a behemoth, and I can make 13" work, though I prefer a bit more.

The standard stock works better most of the time, my wingshooter 870 goes to 15" and works better.

A defensive shotgun is used more like a rifle, though,and being stocked like a rifle is no handicap.

You do understand we are talking about what a cat said and I am kidding....

FAIL.... :cool:

shortwave
December 13, 2011, 10:29 PM
Actually a 13" LOP is often preferred by folks who wear body armor or are on the smaller side

+1 Dave McC

My old S&W riot gun is cut to 13" and is very maneuverable in close quarter hallways and such.