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TexasJustice7
December 8, 2011, 03:22 PM
Well today I took someone to a regional hospital early in the morning through a regular hospital door. Having reviewed the allowed places to carry, I saw that unless a hospital has a 30.06 sign a CWP holder is allowed to carry. So I had two handguns concealed and when I got to the door I read a sign which said "No Gun" with the symbol with Gun marked through
and said State Law. Now I know this sign does not meet the requirements of
the law passed in 2005, since it does not have the 30.06 wording, nor does it reference 30.06. But being a bit hesitant about carrying because of the
sign, I secured my guns in the vehicle. I am checking back with them regarding the sign. So just wondered who would have ignored the sign?
:eek:

ohen cepel
December 8, 2011, 03:37 PM
Hospitals may fall into a protected category when it comes to signage/policy.

Mostly due to the ER and people/gunshot victims having people continueing the fire fight in the hospital.

TexasJustice7
December 8, 2011, 04:39 PM
Well the text I have of SB 501 says that the following places are restricted if the 30.06 sign is ponsted in which case it is a class A misdemanor offense. On the premises of a hospital nursing home. This law was effective in Texas in SB 501. I think SB 501 removed the right of any city, or county from placing a 30.06 sign on any building owned or leased, therefore not restricting the carrying of a handgun by CWP Holder. Federal property is
different. It may be that the sign only applies to non permit holders, which it is a misdemeanor to carry without a license. But in general I will respect a
no gun sign which does not meet the laws requirements, but won't go back.
There could of course be newer legislation out too!

psyfly
December 8, 2011, 05:18 PM
IANAL, but it was explained to me this way:

The applicable law is Texas Penal Code section 30.06 and the sign must contain the following in letters at least 1" in height and in both English and Spanish:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."

Any other sign may or may not represent the true desires of the building's owners/operators (some merchants put up some kind of "no guns" sign to reassure their uninformed customers while knowing that it does not carry the force of law).

I stand ready to be corrected, if necessary, and learn better.

Best,

Will

TXHootus
December 8, 2011, 05:44 PM
As has already been mentioned, hospitals are no different than any other public place of business in Texas regarding signage. If they wish to restrict CHL holders from carrying, they must post the full text shown in the post above in both English and Spanish in letters 1" high on a contrasting background at all public entrances. Failure to do so is failure of proper notification.

Note that if you carry into the hospital because of an invalid sign and are given verbal notice (which does not have to have that specific wording) you are obliged to leave immediately and secure your firearm outside the premises before returning.

TexasJustice7
December 8, 2011, 06:21 PM
Note that if you carry into the hospital because of an invalid sign and are given verbal notice (which does not have to have that specific wording) you are obliged to leave immediately and secure your firearm outside the premises before returning.

That is true, and I knew that. I went the additional step of complying with the sign even if not enforceable and tried to check on it. After awhile a local police officer showed up asking me about my questions at the hospital and I was on the phone with someone when he showed up. I guess when you mention 30.06 some people think that is a rifle instead of a regulation. I should have an answer by tomorrow, as to their intent of the sign, whether it is intended for everyone or non-permit holders. I do wish they would put
up the legally correct signs though if it is meant for permit holders too. But because I ask some questions I guess that makes them nervous. At least the officer who came knows me, knows my brother to in law enforcement.

GM1967
December 8, 2011, 06:31 PM
Mostly due to the ER and people/gunshot victims having people continueing the fire fight in the hospital.

*sighs*

....because we all know that criminals intending to commit murder will be stopped by a sign that says "you can't do that here", right?

Mello2u
December 8, 2011, 08:52 PM
GM1967


ohen cepel
Mostly due to the ER and people/gunshot victims having people continueing the fire fight in the hospital.
*sighs*

....because we all know that criminals intending to commit murder will be stopped by a sign that says "you can't do that here", right?
GM1967 is offline Report Post

No one ever violates those "Gun Free" zones, anywhere, ever. No firearm has ever been used illegally in one since they were created. Those "Gun Free" zones are the solution to all crime. Schools, government buildings and all those other "Gun Free" zones are safe too. Amazing what laws and signs can do!

Yeah Right!!!

TexasJustice7
December 8, 2011, 09:08 PM
No one ever violates those "Gun Free" zones, anywhere, ever. No firearm has ever been used illegally in one since they were created. Those "Gun Free" zones are the solution to all crime. Schools, government buildings and all those other "Gun Free" zones are safe too. Amazing what laws and signs can do!

That is a great point. I will remember this quote. I think once they decide whether they are going to put up Texas 30.06 signs then I will decide whether I need to black list doctors located in that facility which I will never use. This one was for a family member, and is a good doctor, but I can find
another one if I have to. Since someone there apparently was concerned
about me asking about the sign, and I got a visit from a police officer, regarding me asking about the sign, I guess I will just make sure none of
my medicare business goes to this facility depending upon what the intent
of their sign is, or if they put up the 30.06 sign.

But I think that there is something in the SB 501 that prohibits a government building in Texas, unless it is a court, from having a 30.06 sign
and I am thinking this is the reason there is not a legal sign posted at each entrance. I guess I need to read the entire Senate Bill 501, and determine if their facility is defined as a state government building since it is funded by the State. I will read that entire bill tonight. :D

checkmyswag
December 8, 2011, 09:49 PM
I always figured it was to stop people from killing their ill loved ones.

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 08:26 AM
I always figured it was to stop people from killing their ill loved ones.

After researching this, and thinking it over last night I have decided on
my course of action. If they tell me the sign applies to everyone, then I
will respect that, but I will also identify the hospital and let everyone with
a CWP know about their policy. But I won't be intimidated into not asking the intent of their sign. If they do not put up 30.06 sign, I am going to
inform their representative that next time I will disregard the sign because it is not legal notice. If I subsequently carry while this sign is up, and I am
questioned and detained because of the sign, which does not meet legal
requirements, then I will file a lawsuit over it. Either way, I am ready to look
for another doctor and stand ready to let others know their policy whatever
it is when I find out. I guess having the police officer, and being treated like
I have leprousy for having a gun permit and questioning their sign, has hardened my attitude over it.
:mad:

Sport45
December 9, 2011, 08:37 AM
Look around. I thought one hospital I was visiting didn't have the sign until I saw it. They'd used a clear decal on one of the front windows. The letters were big enough and black. But without the contrasting white background it was difficult to see.

secret_agent_man
December 9, 2011, 09:07 AM
No one ever violates those "Gun Free" zones, anywhere, ever. No firearm has ever been used illegally in one since they were created. Those "Gun Free" zones are the solution to all crime. Schools, government buildings and all those other "Gun Free" zones are safe too. Amazing what laws and signs can do!

Yeah, great quote. Now this: Police response vehicle Thursday at Virginia Tech. Some guy didn't know how to read.
http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images2/1208_vatech/11186524-1-eng-US/1208_VATech_full_380.jpg

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 09:18 AM
Sport45: Look around. I thought one hospital I was visiting didn't have the sign until I saw it. They'd used a clear decal on one of the front windows. The letters were big enough and black. But without the contrasting white background it was difficult to see.

I did look around. The sign clearly does not meet the requirements of Texas Law 30.06, which requires the specific sign, with a certain size lettering, in both Spainish and English as someone else pointed out. If that is their intent, they should go ahead and post the legal sign, and allow me and other permit holders to go see medical providers at other facilities. I have other doctors in another towns, civilian that do not have any such sign. I feel like
I bent over backwards, to respect their sign even though it was not legal.
The least they can do is inform me that they do not want anyone to carry,
as I suspect is the case. If so, then I can look elsewhere for a medical doctor
and inform the one my family member uses why his services are no longer required. Instead, it appears to me, they chose to attempt intimidation by
having a police officer come visit me. My greatest objection would be to be
detained with them using a non legal sign as their basis for detainment. That
would result in a lawsuit. It has already left a bad taste in my mouth for
when I was attempting to find out what their intent is. I also do not think
they like me pointing out that I do not think they have adequate security, if say Major Hasaan had picked their facility instead of Ft. Hood. They are well within their rights to stop CWP persons from carrying, but not to use a non
legal sign as the basis for any detainment.

:mad:

Bartholomew Roberts
December 9, 2011, 09:20 AM
But I won't be intimidated into not asking the intent of their sign. If they do not put up 30.06 sign, I am going to
inform their representative that next time I will disregard the sign because it is not legal notice. If I subsequently carry while this sign is up, and I am
questioned and detained because of the sign, which does not meet legal
requirements, then I will file a lawsuit over it.

This is a bad idea. The law provides that if you have notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the property owner, you may not carry a concealed handgun. There are two ways you may receive this notice. One is through oral communication. One is through written communication.

If you are a CHL, the law is very specific on what written communication is required to give a CHL notice. However, oral communication is still notice and no specific oral communication is required by law.

So if you call and ask them whether CHLs are prohibited, and they say "Yes, they are prohibited" (oral communication) and you then carry into the hospital anyway because the sign (written communication) doesn't meet the 30.06 requirements, you will still be breaking the law because you have notice via oral communication that such behavior is prohibited. You will not only have no grounds for a lawsuit, you'll be committing a Class A misdemeanor that, at a minimum, will get your CHL suspended for 5 years.

Silent Bob
December 9, 2011, 09:23 AM
A local hospital (TMC of Denison) is posted with a very visible "gunbuster" sign but not a 30.06 sign. My understanding from my CHL class is that they must be properly posted with a 30.06 sign, so I carried my .45 in when I went to go visit my grandmother after her heart surgery. It would have been preferable that you hadn't contacted the hosptial about their sign, next time you probably will find a legal 30.06 sign posted. I prefer not to educate places about non-legal signs. I hope this wasn't TMC you've riled things up at.

KMAX
December 9, 2011, 09:26 AM
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it looks to me like you are looking for a battle where there is really not one. Keep it concealed and you are okay. I see the "No Gun" signs in a lot of places in TX, but they do not fill the requiriments of 30.06 so I disregard them. One of my banks has a 8.5x11" sign in a bulletin board by the entrance that I noticed the other day that specifically mentioned concealed permit holders, but is not regulation wording or size. I think hospitals are considered "safe" zones so when you started asking about the sign you probably made some non-gun person nervous, hence the police visit. I have considered carrying a printout of Texas Penal Code 30.06 on me to show people who might question me. I figure though that as long as I don't make an issue of it I won't have a problem as long as I keep it concealed. Don't expect to be welcomed with open arms if you are a cc permit holder and don't go challanging non-gun people. They can push back and put up the legal signs and actually prohibit us from carrying there instead of only suggesting we don't.

Don P
December 9, 2011, 09:27 AM
*On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
*On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code

This is from the Hangunlaw web sight. From what I see and how I interpret the laws the sign in this case is a moot point. reading the above quote.

Items above marked * Do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

The sign in my opinion is effective notice

Silent Bob
December 9, 2011, 09:32 AM
"The sign in my opinion is effective notice."

30.06 specifically states the sign must meet certain requirements. A generic "gunbuster" sign does not qualify.

Don P
December 9, 2011, 09:44 AM
"The sign in my opinion is effective notice."

30.06 specifically states the sign must meet certain requirements. A generic "gunbuster" sign does not qualify.

The quote at the top of my post pertaining to the hospital caught my attention.

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 09:58 AM
Thanks for the responses. I am not riling things up. I do object to intimidation as a response. But I did speak with the lady who is checking
into the matter and she is very nice. She will let me know what the intent of the sign is when she has an answer. That is all I expect, and I will not name
the hospital. If I was there, and proceeded to carry, and then security
detained me, based upon the non legal sign, then it creates a problem for my daughter who is like a 3 year old while I am being detained.

So if their intent is nobody allowed to carry ot their facility, then I need to know that, and that gives me the time to find another doctor. If that is the
case, then I will name the facility. There is no need to name the facility
because they may not have any problem at all with permit holders carrying there. I have not got the answer to that yet.

If I went to a shopping mall and there was a No Gun Sign which did not
meet the Texas Requirement, I would likewise not shop there. Thats my
right. I am unwilling to become a victim to satisfy political correctness.

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 10:06 AM
Silent Bob: A local hospital (TMC of Denison) is posted with a very visible "gunbuster" sign but not a 30.06 sign. My understanding from my CHL class is that they must be properly posted with a 30.06 sign, so I carried my .45 in when I went to go visit my grandmother after her heart surgery. It would have been preferable that you hadn't contacted the hosptial about their sign, next time you probably will find a legal 30.06 sign posted. I prefer not to educate places about non-legal signs. I hope this wasn't TMC you've riled things up at.

No Silent Bob, that was not the hospital involved. As long as they are nice about it, and provide me an answer, I am willing to use other facilities which I already have access to where there are no such signs, and where my civilian doctors know I carry and have a permit. On this issue a local gunshop, the best one around, not far from where I live, has a sign which
requires gun owners to disarm before going into the gunshop. They definitely lose a lot of my business because of that sign. I respect the sign,
I do not violate it even if the sign is not legal, but I don't have to buy from them. I don't make a scene about it, nor rile them up about their sign, but I can always find somewhere else to conduct my business. The same applies to the hospital facility which has medical providers who practice there.
The lady I am speaking with thanked me for bringing it to her attention and I expect an answer in a few days.

psyfly
December 9, 2011, 10:09 AM
I get my medical treatment in a local facility which has two separate hospital buildings and two separate office complexes.

The two hospital buildings and one of the office buildings is properly posted per section 30.06.

One of the office buildings is not so posted.

I've been curious as to why but will not ask for fear that I'll find it legally posted the next time I go in there.

OTOH, I also have suspicions that the building is purposely not so posted to accomodate those health-care professionals who carry.

It's difficult, but not impossible, to know the law (Texas legislature, in it's last regular session, passed more than 1700 new laws for us citizens :mad:).

Best,

Will

P.S.: To be fair, that 1700+ number also includes some unknown number of "resolutions", which are not exactly laws.

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 10:13 AM
Bartholmew Roberts: This is a bad idea. The law provides that if you have notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the property owner, you may not carry a concealed handgun. There are two ways you may receive this notice. One is through oral communication. One is through written communication.

I have already mentioned that in previous posts in this thread. I am well aware that if you are informed verbally or in writing by someone in authority
that you may not carry that refusal to leave the facility at that point is
a violation. What I am referring to is not giving notice, and detaining someone based just upon the non enforceable sign, thereby creating a
problem for my disabled daughter while I am being detained for violation
of a non enforcable sign.

And if that is the case then I will respect the sign, if that is their intent,
but at the same time, then I will name the specific hospital and let others
know about their policy. They have the right to stop CWP holoders from
carrying either with a 30.06 sign, or verbal or written notice, but not
to do that based upon a non enforceable sign. You probably do not have
a disabled person you are a caretaker for, so if they detained you and let
you go later that might not be a problem for you but it is for me.

I go overboard to comply with the owners intent. I expect the courtesy of
an answer before the situation arises where it is a problem for me and
a disabled family member. Someone though who has an officer come
visit me because I asked about the sign, though I find objectionable. :)

TXHootus
December 9, 2011, 10:25 AM
Quote:
*On the premises of a Hospital licensed under the Health and Safety Code
*On the premises of a nursing home licensed under the Health and Safety Code

This is from the Hangunlaw web sight. From what I see and how I interpret the laws the sign in this case is a moot point. reading the above quote.

This quote from the Handgunlaw web site is out of date. Current law says removed that restriction from hospitals, putting them in the same class as other business and requiring specific written notification as mentioned in previous posts.

TXJustice7, if a business is not providing effective notice I would not recommend asking for their stance. You might be told (effective verbal notice) that they do not want you to carry there. If you don't ask, you have not been given effective notice, though.

BTW, if you want to alert other CHL holders of the notice (effective or not) you can sign up and report it at www.texas3006.com. This is a database compiled for just this purpose.

Silent Bob
December 9, 2011, 10:36 AM
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

I interpret this, as did my CHL instructor, that a hosptial must be properly posted with a 30.06 compliant sign in order to bar CHL holders.

TexasJustice 7, didn't mean to sound snarky with you, but I have heard of CHL carriers confronting owners of businesses about their non-compliant signs only to return and find legal, compliant signs in their place. My policy is if the sign is not legal, then I ignore it and do not educate the owner on their ignorance. I am not in the habit of letting people other then close friends and family know that I carry a gun anyway.

TexasJustice7
December 9, 2011, 12:16 PM
TexasJustice 7, didn't mean to sound snarky with you, but I have heard of CHL carriers confronting owners of businesses about their non-compliant signs only to return and find legal, compliant signs in their place. My policy is if the sign is not legal, then I ignore it and do not educate the owner on their ignorance. I am not in the habit of letting people other then close friends and family know that I carry a gun anyway.


My brother in law enforcement interprets that unless it is posted with a 30.06 sign it is not enforecable, but in my case I did not want a situation happening where they might detain me, for violating their unenforcable sign.
If they give me proper notice, oral, written or otherwise, then I will not
carry there, but I will terminate the medical provider's services that my
daughter gets there.

I don't think however, we should violate the owner's intent just because their sign is not legal notice, and I would rather respect the owner's
intent, and get services from somewhere else.

Someone mentioned that maybe the reason the 30.06 signs have not
gone up, it might be that some of the doctors carry. I had not thought
about that, but I think that maybe this issue had not been addressed.
I know in Texas, hospitals as well as a number of other government
entities prohibited CWP holders from carrying but SB 501 removed the
right from some of them to do that. I don't know if the hospital falls
into that category. The lady I am in contact with seems very receptive
to the issues I have raised, and I am not trying to cause them a problem.
I just need an answer. I did not like someone from there having a police officer contact me, but it might not have been her. Could have been some
anti gun person who overheard her conversation on the phone with me.

I endure this at Federal VA facilities, but at least when it comes to civilian medical care, I can vote with my feet.

:)

bikerbill
December 10, 2011, 02:05 PM
My understanding is that any business may post a handmade "no guns" sign, but it does not have the force of law. However, if the shop owner is serious and somehow sees your concealed weapon, he may ask you to leave, and police can be called if you refuse, under trespass laws. A sign meeting the exact letter of the 30.06 portion of the law is the only way to enforce keeping guns out of your establishment. I've been in two hospitals in the Austin area since I got my CHL (as a visitor) and both had 30.06 signs posted. My gun stayed in the trunk of the car.

saands
December 10, 2011, 04:23 PM
TJ7:

I understand your stance on wanting to respect the wishes of an establishment, but I fail to see what the confusion at the hospital is. They clearly posted the sign, so they are telling you that they'd prefer you didn't carry there. The fact that they didn't follow the 30.06 requirements means that it is more of a suggestion or a request and not a law. Kind of like the orange and black signs on a highway offramp that tell you how fast they think you should go on the cloverleaf. Life is full of decisions and it is my feeling that the fewer that are made for us, the better. If a business suggests that I don't carry, but I don't feel right about leaving my tools in the car for whatever reason, I have options (I can ignore it, I can lock hardware in the car, or I can choose to not be a patron). If someone tells them that their sign could be more prohibitive and they upgrade it, it just takes away my options ... :mad:

Saands

TexasJustice7
December 11, 2011, 04:49 AM
Saands: I understand your stance on wanting to respect the wishes of an establishment, but I fail to see what the confusion at the hospital is. They clearly posted the sign, so they are telling you that they'd prefer you didn't carry there. The fact that they didn't follow the 30.06 requirements means that it is more of a suggestion or a request and not a law. Kind of like the orange and black signs on a highway offramp that tell you how fast they think you should go on the cloverleaf. Life is full of decisions and it is my feeling that the fewer that are made for us, the better. If a business suggests that I don't carry, but I don't feel right about leaving my tools in the car for whatever reason, I have options (I can ignore it, I can lock hardware in the car, or I can choose to not be a patron). If someone tells them that their sign could be more prohibitive and they upgrade it, it just takes away my options ...


Well I guess here is my assessment. If their intent is CWP Holders, not
carry (sign not written in Spainish either), then they need to tell me, that,
or put up 30.06 signs, in either case, I will identify the hospital and make it public information. But say, I ignore the sign, and am detained and someone has to be called to get my handicapped daughter, then the apologies would come but so would a lawsuit. I do not beleive for one minute if I were a crime victim on their property that they would be willing at all to share any criminal liability. Fine, if they do not want CWP holders, then
my business for which they are getting paid for, plus their medical procedures, can be paid for somewhere else. In this day and age, 90
year old women get body scanned at airports, just because the government
does not address the real problem. I am sure that if they illegally detained me based upon the unenforcable signs, they would apologise later, but then
someone woud have had to come from another state to get my disabled
daughter. Then they would think it unreasonable for me to file a lawsuit over it. I am not looking for trouble nor something to sue for. Just make
it clear whether it applies to me. But when they make it clear, that they
do not want me nor other CWP holders to carry there, then I can take my
business and my daughter's elsewhere, and the information can be made public. Having a police officer visit someone asking about an unenforcable sign is like treating CWP holders like they have Leprousy. While the lady
I am speaking with may not have done that, someone there did.