PDA

View Full Version : Real deal! Early A.M


breeze
December 7, 2011, 11:23 PM
I am hoping that I have the correct forum. I own a drinking establishment. Early this morning 12/7/11, I had two of my customers robbed at gunpoint in front of my bar. The "bad guy's" were wearing hoodys and my customers were unable to give a good desciption other than hispanic and black males. I was able to get outside and pull my weapon after calling 911. My mind was going crazy. I am in an area where there are several homes and made the decision not to fire in fear of hitting a neiborhood home or person. I was ready to do it, but I did not fire. The police told me that it was a good decision on my part. They only got a purse and $5.00 out of the ordeal. My wife and I both have a CCW and the police are aware of this. What would you have done? Thanks

mrgoodwrench76
December 7, 2011, 11:26 PM
Called police and hid behind a good solid object until they arrived.

MTT TL
December 7, 2011, 11:35 PM
It is hard to say for sure what I would have done based upon your post. However I would not have shot someone over $5 and a purse for people I barely knew. So I would say you did fine given the situation.

shootniron
December 7, 2011, 11:40 PM
You did good...

You were there had the BGs decided to do harm to the patrons, but did not engage them over the robbery.

breeze
December 7, 2011, 11:41 PM
I guess I should have mentioned that these are good friends and I had no idea of what they had with them as far as money or anything else, thanks.

MTT TL
December 8, 2011, 12:04 AM
Shooting people over property is generally illegal. So if the assailants were fleeing the scene and you shot them in the back for example you could have been going to prison for that.

If you came outside in the middle of the robbery and your friends were being threatened with harm that would be a whole different situation,

farmerboy
December 8, 2011, 12:07 AM
I heard someone say "call the police and hide" yep that's what most cowards would do!

Mike38
December 8, 2011, 01:09 AM
I heard someone say "call the police and hide" yep that's what most cowards would do!

I don’t know that I’d go so far as calling someone a coward for that. A purse with $5 in it, even $5000, is not worth getting shot or killed over.

Would you call the woman that handed over her purse a coward for giving it up? Money is replaceable, her life is not.

On the other hand, if I was 100% convinced that the bad guys intended to kill someone for that $5, then yes, I would get involved.

Mobuck
December 8, 2011, 06:43 AM
I take issue with the idea that "any" property is replaceable. Personally, I would not consider $5000 cash lost to a thief as replaceable(easily anyway). The robber would have to be seriously threatening me to get away with that amount and at that point, would be subject to my using deadly force.
As far as shooting a retreating criminal who robbed someone else w/o hurting them, that's pretty much frowned upon.
My take was the OP intended to confront the criminal if the threat of physical violence upon the OP's friend was imminent.

Rusty35
December 8, 2011, 08:54 AM
Mike38
Senior Member

Quote:
I heard someone say "call the police and hide" yep that's what most cowards would do!
I don’t know that I’d go so far as calling someone a coward for that. A purse with $5 in it, even $5000, is not worth getting shot or killed over.

Would you call the woman that handed over her purse a coward for giving it up? Money is replaceable, her life is not.

On the other hand, if I was 100% convinced that the bad guys intended to kill someone for that $5, then yes, I would get involved.

How is $5000. replaceable?
A car with insurance is partially replaceable, but cash cant be replaced.

The fact that I am going to earn more money next month has nothing to do with the money I earned this month.

Yankee Doodle
December 8, 2011, 09:01 AM
Breeze.
Basing my opinion on a whole lot of years in L.E., you almost did exactly the right thing. The only correction of your actions that I can offer is this.
The ONLY way to guarantee not losing a gunfight is DON'T ATTEND.
You called 911...correct
Then, take your loved ones and get behind cover. You can do more good by being a witness, than you can by being another victim. Heroism or cowardice should not enter into this discussion. The only things that count are common sense and survival.
The simple fact is, Cops are paid to put their lives on the line, let them do their job. They have been thoroughly trained in how to handle just such a situation. Have you?

Ruark
December 8, 2011, 09:12 AM
Keep in mind that at the time of the robbery, the OP didn't know how much was in the purse, or exactly what was going down. So the expression "$5 isn't worth killing over" really doesn't work.

That being said, I get the impression these people came back into the bar AFTER getting robbed, is that correct? If so, you were wrong in running outside and drawing your weapon, because the act was completed. The robbery was finished; there was no longer a threat.

Now, if you'd stepped or looked outside and saw somebody in a hoodie pointing a gun at your friends, that would have been a different story; you would have been justified (in most states, I suppose...) in using deadly force to prevent another individual from illegally using deadly force to cause death or serious bodily injury.

jhenry
December 8, 2011, 09:20 AM
I think the thing we need to know is whether the OP was present while the thugs were robbing the folks or after, and whether or not a weapon was displayed or at least alluded to by the robbers.

MTT TL
December 8, 2011, 09:23 AM
Then, take your loved ones and get behind cover. You can do more good by being a witness, than you can by being another victim. Heroism or cowardice should not enter into this discussion. The only things that count are common sense and survival.

That is one view point, one taken from the eye of a police officer.

The counter viewpoint to that is living a long healthy life knowing that you could have stopped someone from killing your friends when you had the means, opportunity and ability but; you failed because you had not the personal courage and conviction to do so. I'd rather not live my life that way.

We are going to have to disagree on this point I think.

K_Mac
December 8, 2011, 10:12 AM
Since we were not there it is hard to know what the situation was, or how we would have responded. There are always some who will say they would have done something differently. It is easy to be wise, tough, and brave on the interwebz.

No one was hurt. That is a good result in this situation IMO.

serf 'rett
December 8, 2011, 10:39 AM
A time line is needed before we could logically comment on the situation and actions taken.

Here in our great state, for example, I can defend myself if I’m in my car and a hoodie decides to car jack me in such a fashion that I fear said hoodie is going to cause me bodily harm; however, if I’m cleaning my windshield at the local gas station and the same hoodie jumps in my car, with the intent of driving off, woe unto me if I send rounds toward him. Our state law, as I understand it, prohibits me from protecting my property (specifically, my car) with lethal force. Your state law will vary. I think I’m still allowed to attempt to physically remove said hoodie from the car.

Another example comes to mind from a few years ago. A couple of counties over for me, a guy had some high dollar equipment stolen from his vehicle, while it was in his carport. He suspected the local dope head was the thief. He replaced the equipment and kept a good weather eye out on his stuff. Short story is he heard some noise one night, peeked out to see doper at work, whereupon the owner slipped out the backdoor with an aluminum baseball bat, rounded the house and whacked doper enough to put him down. Not the six feet under kind of down, just down enough for the local law to arrive and take over. Anyone want to guess who went to prison? Last I heard of the case, the righteous owner had been hit with two or three times more prison time than the doper.

I'm glad no one was hurt, but regret the lady lost her purse as this can be very serious – home address leading to a future visit, identity theft, banking account and credit card information, etc.

Skans
December 8, 2011, 11:27 AM
I'd suggest that anyone who owns a drinking establishment and has had patrons robbed in their parking lot do a few things:

1. Invest in a good surveillance and monitoring system.
2. Have the cops patrol the area more often.
3. Private security may too expensive, but its a consideration.

Running after the BG's with a gun is probably not a good idea. I don't know about you, but I'm not trained to handle a situation where two people not related to me are being held at gunpoint.

Brian Pfleuger
December 8, 2011, 11:31 AM
Keep in mind that at the time of the robbery, the OP didn't know how much was in the purse, or exactly what was going down. So the expression "$5 isn't worth killing over" really doesn't work.

Doesn't matter if the purse was filled with gold bars. It's not worth shooting someone.

JackBurton
December 8, 2011, 11:39 AM
#1. I would not have drew my gun. The purpose of a CCW is for protection, not to play police officer. Nobody knows who you are and you could have been outside where an LE would mistake you for being one of the robbers.

#2. I would have called 911 like you and did my best to give a full description of the suspects.

Sworn LE has a duty to protect the public. Its not the job of a CCW holder to get involved with something like that. Now if an old lady is being beat to a pulp on the street, thats a different story but you have an use of force issue at hand. The gun is not always the option.

farmerboy
December 8, 2011, 11:48 AM
Sounds like a place here where alot of cowards congregate!

Skans
December 8, 2011, 12:14 PM
Sounds like a place here where alot of cowards congregate!

Cowards? No. Just folks who are pretty smart about the law and their own limitations. There's no reason for anyone to play cop. Just obtain the required training and fill out an application for employment if you want to be a real cop.

Having said that, every situation is different, and the details of he situation will dictate what a CCW holder can and cannot effectively hope to accomplish with by using a firearm.

Stressfire
December 8, 2011, 12:25 PM
I heard someone say "call the police and hide" yep that's what most cowards would do!
Sounds like a place here where alot of cowards congregate!

*Sigh* - not really even worth a witty response

I would have involved myself if the robbers had been unhappy with what they got and were in the process of doing worse when I got there.

Aside from that, if the BGs were already gone - call police to report the robbery and call credit card companies to cancel cards. Then get your shaken patrons a couple of drinks on the house;)

K_Mac
December 8, 2011, 12:43 PM
Well said Stressfire.

Farmerboy there are so many things that could be said... There are also many places on the web that you can go beat your chest and impress folks with your bravado. Fortunately this is not one of those places.

plouffedaddy
December 8, 2011, 12:47 PM
What would I do? Unless a person's life is in danger, try to find cover, and be ready in case the threat changes. IMO, no need to kill anyone (even low-life scum criminals) unless they could harm the innocent.

JerryM
December 8, 2011, 01:07 PM
Shooting a fleeing individual, and especially for $5, might get me in prison. For someone here think I am a coward is of zero importance.

In addition, life is not of so little value that I want to shoot someone if there is another reasonable way. I am not sure how life has so little meaning to some. I suspect that if some did kill someone it might just bear on them forever, and particularly if for something like the OP.

Jerry

Skans
December 8, 2011, 02:04 PM
Although I am not one to shoot down a fleeing criminal (because I don't want to be on the wrong side of the law and/or hurt innocents in the process), I will say this. I have no regard for an armed robber's life whatsoever - complete and utter waste of human flesh.

Dragline45
December 8, 2011, 02:20 PM
MTT TL - That is one view point, one taken from the eye of a police officer.

The counter viewpoint to that is living a long healthy life knowing that you could have stopped someone from killing your friends when you had the means, opportunity and ability but; you failed because you had not the personal courage and conviction to do so. I'd rather not live my life that way.

No one died, there was no opportunity to confront the robbers, and courage and conviction has nothing to do with this so I dont see what you are getting at. Unless the robbers are attacking or seriously threatening the victims(which will still be hard to prove in court), you cannot just go out blasting away at them or you will be the one sitting in a jail cell.

TailGator
December 8, 2011, 03:14 PM
I'm not clear on the sequence of events. Your friends were robbed, then you called 911 and went outside with a pistol. Where were your friends when you went outside? Where were the robbers relative to your friends and relative to your bar? I guess the biggest questions is, did you arrive when the BGs still had a gun trained on your friends, or after they were out of danger? I am trying to fit a robbery, a call, and your going outside into a timeline, and I keep coming up with some BGs plying their trade at an unusually leisurely pace.

Another thought on security that costs very little is adequate lighting around the entrance and approaches to your bar. If you know a little bit about wiring, you can spend $50 or $100 at Lowes and light up a small storefront like noontime.

breeze
December 8, 2011, 07:04 PM
I was mainly looking for positive vs negative feedback for my actions and right or wrong, I am no coward, just a person looking for feedback from others. We are a small neiborhood bar. The lighting is plentiful around the building and there is a security system in place, however this all took place under a lighted sign with a camera on top. Unfortunitely the camera is pointed to show the parking area and not directly under the lighted sign. The robbery took place in a matter of 3-6 minutes. They were sitting in a car warming it up when it happened. I was notified by the customer shaking the door and screaming, the door is about 10 steps away. I was on my cell phone when I exited the building and the bg's were at the end of the property when I got outside so I had time to draw my weapon and make the decision. One turned and faced me with a weapon in hand. As I said my decision was based upon the area and possible harm to others and property. The only danger at that point would have been if the bg decided to fire at me, everone else was clear. I was beside my truck aiming accross the hood.

MTT TL
December 8, 2011, 07:43 PM
No one died, there was no opportunity to confront the robbers, and courage and conviction has nothing to do with this so I dont see what you are getting at. Unless the robbers are attacking or seriously threatening the victims(which will still be hard to prove in court), you cannot just go out blasting away at them or you will be the one sitting in a jail cell.

My post was in response to YD talking about avoiding a gun fight by not going. What I am getting at is that is not always the best course of action. Nothing I have posted indicates any particular willingness to go "blasting" away at people. If you are seeing that you are likely projecting.

MTT TL
December 8, 2011, 07:52 PM
I was notified by the customer shaking the door and screaming, the door is about 10 steps away. I was on my cell phone when I exited the building and the bg's were at the end of the property when I got outside so I had time to draw my weapon and make the decision. One turned and faced me with a weapon in hand. As I said my decision was based upon the area and possible harm to others and property. The only danger at that point would have been if the bg decided to fire at me, everone else was clear. I was beside my truck aiming accross the hood.

I interpret this as meaning that the people who had been robbed were "safely" inside, with the robbers outside. If that is the case then I would likely have not gone outside if no one else was in immediate danger. I probably would have drawn my weapon and covered the door at the low ready behind cover and waited for the police to arrive (while keeping them informed and in contact until they arrived).

If someone else were in danger I would have gone outside, It is hard to go over every point.

I would say you did fine though.

TexasJustice7
December 8, 2011, 07:54 PM
If they just wanted my cash I would have taken $50 or more out and gave it to them. If they want my wallet which contains my ID cards, my driver's license, my gun permit, my VA card, and various debit cards, and I have the
chance to prevent them they are in for a gunfight, because I won't surrender those if I think I can stop them. I worry more about identity theft once they get my wallet than I worry about letting them have the money.
But in Texas one has no duty to retreat, and one has the right to stop a felony in progress such as a robbery. The only consideration to me would be whether I could draw fast enough. If its my car they want and I have a disabled family member in it, I am going for my gun regardless.:)

breeze
December 8, 2011, 08:04 PM
You are correct in that all were safely out of harms way. I did what I did out of pure adrenilin and inability to think of concequence of my actions, thanks for all the input from everyone, it has been a real learning experience.

Vermonter
December 8, 2011, 08:29 PM
So you secured the unarmed, contacted leo, and then went outside to confront the robbers. Going outside sounds like the point where adrenilen took over. The positive news here is the fact that you re gained your cool prior to shooting an armed individual on your property.
If an armed person turned to confront me with a weapon in hand i am not sure if they would have time to run off.
It sounds as though your actions resulted in a positive result for all involved and i have a good deal of respect for your decision to put others safety above your own.
Hopefully you never face such a situation ever again.
Regards, Vermonter

farmerboy
December 8, 2011, 11:59 PM
You called 911-great. Then you went outside and pulled your gun-on who? Why pull your gun if you're not going to use it and basically why did you go outside to begin with? That's kinda strange to me but glad no one was hurt. You did good by calling 911

breeze
December 9, 2011, 12:08 AM
If you read my last 2 posts, that will answer your question, thanks for your input and concern.

stinkbug
December 9, 2011, 12:33 AM
Breeze.
The simple fact is, Cops are paid to put their lives on the line, let them do their job. They have been thoroughly trained in how to handle just such a situation. Have you?

Typical cop attitude... "let the professionals handle it".

Reality is that cops spend much more of their time taking reports after the crime is committed and the injuries are inflicted on the innocent than the do actually stopping a crime from happening. Defend yourself and your loved ones with vigor. Don't wait on the cops to ride to your rescue.

breeze
December 9, 2011, 01:22 AM
My reason for calling leo was to inform them of a life or death situation and to protect my ass in case of what may have been a tradgic turn out. I belive I would have been within my right to protect person and property and hesitation only saved me and them from certain litigation. I have leo in my family and have paid much attention to my rights as well as the perps "and yes they also have rights" in this situation. "SPELLING MAY BE INCORRECT". My only concern now is if it will happen again given our location and the fact that it has now happened once. All of the reponses I have recieved have there merit and are duly noted, but again, if it happened to you in real life, what would you do? I have told you my side, thanks again for all of the response and I think we could close the thread now before more name calling and would have/ could have gets out of hand, thanks and have a safe and long life "Merry Christmas and happy holiday's to everyone".

TheNocturnus
December 9, 2011, 01:40 AM
Wow people, I'm surprised after all these comments no one suggested that the bar owner offer them a drink on the house after this ordeal. jeez...

breeze
December 9, 2011, 01:50 AM
OK, one last comment. They are here now and I did buy them drinks all night. I'm calling them a cab right now. Customer service!! Thanks again to all.

MTT TL
December 9, 2011, 06:17 AM
pulled your gun-on who? Why pull your gun if you're not going to use it

He was using it. You don't have to pull the trigger to use a gun. Having it out of the holster and ready to go is mostly better if you are expected to contact armed assailants.

The down side to that is if someone had already called the cops and they rolled up on him suddenly. At that point the cops would be more likely to kill him then the bad guys. Being ambushed by the bad guys or shot by the police mistakenly is really the main reason not to go back out there if no one else is in danger.

Given the situation he was acting instinctively and had not considered the above. It is not everyone who moves towards the sound of the guns.

Stressfire
December 9, 2011, 09:27 AM
Wow people, I'm surprised after all these comments no one suggested that the bar owner offer them a drink on the house after this ordeal. jeez...

Lol, post #22. I know I'd need one for sure.

Capt Charlie
December 9, 2011, 01:35 PM
Closed by OP's request. This one was about worn out anyhow.