View Full Version : Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?
December 7, 2011, 10:13 AM
Just wondering if anyone carries a blackjack or a sap? I have one and wonder if I should be carrying it or leaving it in the car in case i need it? Just wondering. Thanks for reading.
December 7, 2011, 10:25 AM
Does anyone carry a blackjack or sap?
A concealed weapons permit in Texas does not make it legal to carry a blackjack or sap. If caught with one it would be a problem. I just stick to my guns myself.:)
December 7, 2011, 10:26 AM
I carry one in my truck. I turned it myself from Osage Orange.
Even though, at age 73, I don't need a cane I have made myself a couple. One has a 1" hickory shaft and an antique brass horse hame tip. The tip is quite heavy and would dent a bowling ball. I figure a 70+ year old man using a cane would not be questioned. Actually, I'm pretty healthy and agile. Someone mess with me or family they will get a rude awakening just before I put them to sleep.
December 7, 2011, 10:29 AM
December 7, 2011, 10:31 AM
It is also illegal in Texas to have one in your car. As mentioned, the Texas Concealed Handgun license only applies to a HANDGUN, not a baton, sap, club, illegal knife, sword,..... check the Texas Penal code chapter 46 for weapons regulations.
If you are in another state, I don't have a clue as to what is legal there
December 7, 2011, 11:02 AM
Illegal in Illinois.
It is a UUW, and if convicted it will cost you your FOID (no longer able to rent a range, purchase ammunition, or purchase firearms in Illinois).
December 7, 2011, 11:21 AM
Illegal here in NY.
December 7, 2011, 11:51 AM
god i love Oregon..... i keep the blackjack in my truck, and the wife has an asp in her car.....along with the revolvers of course..
December 7, 2011, 12:13 PM
You might be in need of a good cane or walking stick
SINCE I CANT UPLOAD TO THIS SYSTEM TRY COLD STEEL.COM FOR CANES AND WALKING STICKS A NICE IRISH ONE WOULD BE IN ORDER EVERY GOOD AMERICAN GENT NEEDS ONE
December 7, 2011, 12:50 PM
Illegal in Virginia.
All a permit covers is a concealed handgun.
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
December 7, 2011, 12:56 PM
Stick with a cane, they are legal everywhere. I carry a cane made to support up to 500 lbs. that has a solid brass ball as a handle. It is heavier than a standard cane(as expected) and is a standoff weapon that most punks do not know to deal with. It will out reach a knife, break bones, even kill if used forcefully enough. It will also allow you to clear enough space to draw your gun or in arms reach fights keep your attacker from grabbing your gun. It is important to learn some stick fighting or police riot baton use to be effective.
December 7, 2011, 01:14 PM
(720 ILCS 5/Art. 24 heading)
ARTICLE 24. DEADLY WEAPONS
(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or .....
a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man‑made material.
A person convicted of a violation of subsection 24‑1(a)(1) through (5), subsection 24‑1(a)(10), subsection 24‑1(a)(11), or subsection 24‑1(a)(13) commits a Class A misdemeanor.
I don't think it's the misdemeanor that's the problem per se but because it is a weapons related charge - you lose your FOID.
I also think it disqualifies you from some non-res CCW permits. I recall seeing a question on some of the forms asking if you'd ever been convicted of a weapons charge -maybe its the PA aplication (can't remember).
December 7, 2011, 01:16 PM
Way back in time,,,
When dinosaurs ruled the earth,,,
I was an up and coming karate student.
Enter the Dragon had just came out,,,
We were all begging Mr. Chan to teach us to use "chucks".
His response was, "Why learn a weapon you can't carry?"
"Bummer" we all thought.
Instead he taught us lots of great techniques,,,
Using a simple walking stick/cane.
Interestingly enough when I left Korea and came back stateside,,,
I found what he had taught us was so very similar to LAPD baton techniques.
So if you can get used to carrying a walking stick,,,
They are a very capable weapon with very little training,,,
Besides, they be dashing and you too can stroll like Bat Masterson (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052445/).
December 7, 2011, 01:20 PM
I wouldn't want to have a blackjack in my hand when the BG pulls a gun.
December 7, 2011, 02:54 PM
I had a friend who used to drive a cab in New York City in the 50's and 60's. He used to take alot of fares to 125th St. and the Harlem area. One of the favorite places to go was Minton's Jazz Club. He used to carry a blackjack to protect against drunks and unrulys. He said one time a fare got in his cab and demanded the money from the night. He wallopped him with the blackjack and he went stumbling out of the cab and took off. He was very pleased with its results. I wonder why with so many states banning them why they still make them. Blackjacks and saps are easily found for purchase.
December 7, 2011, 02:55 PM
All manner of common hand held weapons such as knives, saps and jacks, clubs, etc. are legal under the Second Amendment and the body of natural law which predates it.
But mountains will have to be moved before the above is stare decisis.
December 7, 2011, 03:08 PM
I will make sure to never carry a sand bag in Illinois, I guess I will just cart them around insted.
December 7, 2011, 04:37 PM
^ I think we're OK with regular sandbags - like emergency levy sandbags.
It's the kind you can hold in your hand and swing like a black-jack that I think this applies to.
But I wouldn't put it past a Chicago cop to arrest someone under this statute for having an actual sandbag.
December 7, 2011, 05:06 PM
What about a bag of rocks? Rocks are not sand :p
I like to say if a cop is looking for a reason to arrest you, he will find one 100% of the time.
I do love how old-timey some of our laws are here in Illinois.
I wish I COULD carry a black jack or some kind of collapsible baton. Short of CC coming to Illinois id rather have one of the two over the pocket knife I carry right now.
December 7, 2011, 05:29 PM
I asked the Assistant AG of California why carrying a handgun was a misdemeanor (at the time), but a sap. club, etc. was a felony. He said it dated back to when "silent means of attack" were used to Shanghi sailors in San Francisco!
Back in 19 mumble-mumble, when I started in Law Enforcement, I was issued a sap, and told "NEVER use it!". Why? Because we were always hitting each other on the backswing! It's still around here someplace - I never did even carry it.
And the difference between a cane and a sap is the difference between a lever action .44 mag rifle and an AR 15. One is "normal" that a judge or jury might have at home, the other is ""evil"".
December 7, 2011, 06:08 PM
I've never been fond of the Sap or Blackjacks. My instructor in the course I've been taking is a former LEO and he absolutely loved his Blackjack.
I DO have a pair of Sap Gloves, they are marvelous things in my opinion. I'd like to get some fingerless ones soon, when I get back to Oregon. They provide padding for your hand while the weight helps follow through on the punch. Never had to use them, but they keep my hands warm in the winter...
December 7, 2011, 06:31 PM
Seen em with lead in the knuckle area. old school cops had these and my Uncle (det) carried a sap made of leather and had birdshot in it.
Iowa permit is for carrying weapons, didnt ask about non firing ones tho.
December 7, 2011, 07:22 PM
One of the issues with saps is they are generally 'soft' or with the lead mounted on a spring, so all you can really do with them is hit. I also have in my pile of ""stuff" a slapper, wich is a stiff sap than can be used to prod someone. I never carried that either.
And in AZ, it is a 'concealed weapon permit', no firearms listed. In theory, I could carry a Thompson subgun under my coat and be legal. We regulate the person, not the tool.
December 7, 2011, 07:28 PM
For a lot of years, I carried a standard CO2 cartridge that I had poured full of lead. It wasn't quite a pound, but it added quite a bit to my punch.
Due to bad knees and back, I sometimes use a walking stick that has about 3 ounces of lead beneath a heavy pewter cap. It would crush a skull.
December 7, 2011, 07:33 PM
From a legal perspective, I think it would be very easy to cross the line into "deadly force" using a sap or blackjack, particularly if you didn't have training in the use of such a weapon.
If I am going to use deadly force, I'd much prefer to use a ranged weapon as opposed to a contact weapon; but canes and the like do have a big advantage of being readily available and relatively innocuous in parts of the world where firearms would be a problem.
December 7, 2011, 07:36 PM
Broke my leg a few years back and had to walk with a cane for about 6 months, my wife bought me a Coldsteel Blackthorn.
Nice wife, nice cane.:)
December 7, 2011, 10:26 PM
My father, a boxer in college in the late 1920s and early 1930s, carried rolls of quarters in his pockets -- just in case.
December 7, 2011, 11:06 PM
I don't carry one, but when I started in LE in the late 1980s, most officers did. I can say that, from what I've seen, they make pretty fearsome weapons.
December 7, 2011, 11:58 PM
I like them as they are effective at stopping a assualt and it is a shame that they are not legal in most states.
There are a few kinds of them;
Blackjacks --- are round and mainly have a spring in the handle and have a round head with lead birdshot or a solid peice of lead for impact.
Saps ---- are flat and most have a flat spring as the handle -- heads are lead filled with birdshot or a solid peice of lead for impact.
IMHO --- Saps are much more deadly --- if you strike with the "flat edge" of a sap , you can break bones and cause deep lacerations because the impact is concentrated in a 1/4" of impact.
The round head of a Blackjack has more of a chance of glanceing or bounceing off hard bone.
EITHER WILL KILL if you are not trained in what parts of a body to strike at.
A big plus in their favor is that you can palm or have one up your sleeve and thay are GREAT as a knock down weapon.
December 8, 2011, 12:37 AM
About the only thing with a more fearsome reputation than slaps and jacks is a set of nun chucks.
December 8, 2011, 01:20 AM
Personally i believe a can of Fox spray is far superior. The stream can reaches out to 20 feet away and you spray someone they are done altogether. But a cane, blackjack, baseball bat or something would be good after you spray to beat the crap out of afterwards i guess. But then again afterwards the threat should no longer be so you could change from getting assaulted to being the one assaulting. Be careful
December 8, 2011, 02:33 AM
I don't see a use for black-jacks or breass knuckle-type things (roll of quarters), bludgeons etc... At least not for me. And they are deadly. My friend's uncle died from being struck with pool que. He was playing for money, in a bar... you get the picture. Anyway, getting wacked over the head with anything doesn't usually work out in real life the way it does in Hollywood. The one Hollywood film that I know of that was realistic about it was the movie Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, in which Jeff bridges suffers brain damage from being pistol whipped and eventually dies. I knew a guy in the Army who was wacked in he head with a brick in Leesville - Friday night / payday, and robbed. And he was lucky to have lived through it. As it was he lost feeling and sense of taste in part of his tongue.
When Ilinois gets CCW, I'll be carrying. I think that also means I don't do stupid things like hang around in dangerous parts of Chicago, get mouthy with people in bars and common sense things like that. It means I try to avoid and walk away from situations that might escalate into violence, and descalate when I can.
But having said all that. If I've done those things and someone decides they want to perpetrate physical violence on me, I'd rather pull a gun and call the cops on my cell rather than try to slap someone silly with a black-jack.
December 8, 2011, 03:07 AM
I think that everyone should carry what they are comforable with and hopefully , have had a little training in its use.
A cell phone and a CCW are not always the correct ansewer IMHO.
I like to have a "layered defense" from non-lethal on up. I almost always have a impact weapon on me as well as a edged weapon. And if I feel the need , a firearm also -- either on me or in my car.
There are 100s of situations where you can not use lethal force but where you could use a non-lethal weapon with little risk of being placed in prison.
One or two drunk jerks pushing you around on the street is not enough reason to shoot them. Useing pepper-spray , a stick , cane or other impact weapon can be a much better choice.
As to training -- Eskrima , Kali , Arnis etc. teaches the use of "sticks" -- a Sap or Blackjack is really just a short weigthed stick with a good wack to it :D
December 8, 2011, 02:36 PM
Saw a very large dude get whupped on by two smaller guys had brass knuckles. Was very bloody. He did their sis wrong, they whupped him bad, was taken to a hospital with many broken bones in his face.
Another I served in my bar had his jaw broke same way while at a red lite. guy got out of his car and hit him once.
Very effective in stopping a person but not very legal in many states now.
December 8, 2011, 04:16 PM
I often carry an asp baton, it's legal here in KY with a ccw license. Said license also covers concealed knives and other "deadly weapons". Good to have a less lethal option if a legal one is available.
December 9, 2011, 11:37 AM
There is a very powerful Second Amendment lobby and voter bloc. Unfortunately, it is strictly the gun rights lobby. Legislators would get political hell for banning concealed pistols, but no one cares about the right to carry a knife.
December 9, 2011, 12:31 PM
There is a kinfe rights group based in Tucson, and they are getting support from the NRA - look up Kniferights.com or .org, or find the current issue of America's First Freedom, they have an article about them.
As to using a sap on guys pushing you around, that turns you into the agressor, unless you have already tried to escape. And beating someone who is down (from pepper spray or any other reason) WILL get you charged with a felony in most places.
Pepper spray is great stuff - when it works. As an instructor, I got sprayed three (3) times before it had any effect - and even they it was delayed about 45 seconds. Had I wanted to, I could have taken the can away from the guy spraying me, and used it on him. Total time from 1st spray to any effect - about 90 seconds. As a civilian, I would say SPRAY AND RUN!
December 9, 2011, 12:41 PM
As some one else stated illegal in NC. I do however still have my black jack that I carried as a police officer. With that said it does NOT leave my house.
December 9, 2011, 03:39 PM
As an instructor, I got sprayed three (3) times before it had any effect
LOL, Try wasp and hornet spray. And be near a hospital emergency room when you do.:D
December 9, 2011, 03:47 PM
Pepper spray is less lethal, the substances you suggest could easily prove lethal. If you want to go that route, Oven Cleaner is reported to work well.
December 9, 2011, 04:30 PM
I sound like a total nerd, I'm sure, but I never liked sprays. As far as I'm concerned, the old Ninja Metsubushi is better. (Blinding Powder.) Far more illegal, but better. Some consisted of salt, crushed glass, sand, pepper powder, and mixes of them all. I've been sprayed, and I'm sure we've all had something gritty in our eyes. Instead of waiting for a chemical to take effect, a physical substance is always better, in my opinion. Though they have to have their eyes open enough to get it in, flinch responses aren't helpful here.
Knife rights are often overlooked, and too often are they considered weapons. I understand some circumstances, such as courtrooms and airlines, but when a 3.5 inch fixed blade is illegal to open carry, it's ridiculous.
December 9, 2011, 04:31 PM
Oven Cleaner is reported to work well.
Oven cleaner contains lye.
Get that in your eye and you will be permanently blind until the corneal transplant (if you are lucky and the damage is not deep).
THE CORNEA BECOMES OPAQUE.
It attacks the cornea and permanently damages it, and can penetrate into some of the deeper structures of the eye.
December 9, 2011, 04:48 PM
LOL, Try wasp and hornet spray.
Not to pick on the OP, who appeared to be making a side comment and not a suggestion; but I've seen several people suggest that wasp and hornet spray is a good substitute for pepper spray.
The problem with this is that wasp and hornet spray is basically nerve agent. It has a high probability of killing or seriously injuring someone, meaning it is the same as "deadly force" in most places. So legally, you could only use wasp and hornet spray in self-defense if you would be justified in shooting them in that same scenario.
Pepper spray on the other hand is generally recognized* as being non-lethal force and can be used in situations where deadly force cannot.
*Check your state laws. YMMV
Glenn E. Meyer
December 9, 2011, 05:02 PM
The bug sprays have a high probability of affecting you - if used inside. Happens to folks who foolish use it in the house on a bug. Also, there are specific laws against such in some places.
Also, if you blind someone deliberately - you will not be looked upon kindly if you had other options and / or the situation is ambiguous. Just IMHO.
Because, blinding is seen as worse than shooting someone. Strange, isn't - but that was the rationale behind banning laser blinding weapons.
December 9, 2011, 05:41 PM
There's a collapsible baton in the wife's van and a fiberglass sledgehammer handle in my truck. They're my first line of defense in a sudden attack. Easily accessible...as long as you are in or near the vehicle. Not sure if that's legal...don't really care. The perpetrator that attacks me is not going to check local and state laws before attacking. He'd probably be glad I whipped his @$$ with those other than shooting him.
I carry too much other crap in my pockets to try to carry something to smack a bad guy or spray him with too.
December 9, 2011, 06:34 PM
The other issues with pepper sprays, saps, batons, etc. are:
1. Have you had training with them? Misused, they can cause "disproportionate injury".
2. If you carry a sap, but shoot someone, the prosicutor WILL ask you why you did not just hit them with your sap/spray/baton. Heck, in some areas they still ask why you didn't "just shoot the gun out of his hand?", or "just shoot him in the leg?" This only complicates your defense that you were acting to save your life.
That is, in most states, deadly force may be used only to prevent death or serious bodily harm (in at least one state, [New York?], it was held at one time that rape was not a crime of serious bodily harm - ask your wife/girlfriend/daughter what they think.). If you are not at risk of D/SBH, they you may only use "proportionate force". Now your attacker says all he had was empty hands, and you hit him with a lead sap - "no fair'.
Just being the 'devils advocate' here, you understand. This is why I strongly advocate the 'Nike defense' - RUN AWAY!
I will attempt escape until I can justify the use of deadly force - I'm not in LE any more, and have no duty to apprehend, nor do I have to deal with those who are not threatening my life, or the life of another. It all depends on what you can articulate to justify your actions.
December 9, 2011, 06:59 PM
I honestly think a gun is a better option.
There are many many cases of people beaten to death with nothing but the assailant's fists and feet(shoes/boots). A case here in Chicago where a man was nearly beaten to death arguing about the Cubs versus White Sox. He went blind in one eye and was in a coma for a while.
You really have no way of knowing if someone is just going to punch you in the face and leave or if they going to punch you in the face , and proceed to try to beat you to death.
I believe in most cases, the violence de-escalates when you draw a gun. Unless you are an idiot and a jerk and start waving it around and doing stupid things. If you pull it and call 911, or exit the situation or all three - I think it de-esclates the violence.
One thing that I would think about if I'm tussling with a BG, is "Does he have a knife", and "Does he have a gun?"
I really would rather not be trying to wack someone, or slice them and have them pull a gun.
So you get into a confrontation with some jerk, because he hates your baseball team, he takes a swing at you, you wack em with your blackjack, he pulls a knife, you pull a knife, he pulls a gun and now he's holding a gun on you while your's is in your IWB holster and suddenly you get that feeling "DOH!"
I would rather do it this way
Jerk wants to punch me in the face because my St. Louis Cardinals beat his Texas Rangers, he takes a swing at me, I backpedal while putting my left hand up telling him to stop - "I don't want any trouble", if he continues the attack I draw my pistol. If he stops, I call 911 and file a report for assault. If he decides to attack me even though I have a gun, I'm going to fire.
Just my opinion...
December 9, 2011, 07:46 PM
If someone is just swinging at me, I'm not likely to back pedal. C0untZer0, there's a lot to be said about your specific scenario. One, he takes a swing and you back pedal, he is more likely to get a more powerful hit in at a distance. A push into his attack is more likely to keep you safe (punching 6 inches in front of you isn't as powerful, and a knee to the groin would be easy here). Two, his second attack isn't likely going to be the same as the first. Three, you don't know it could be lethal, adding a weapon into it increases your chances of getting hurt.
You said you'd rather not club or slice someone for swinging at you thinking they may pull a gun. At the distance you'd be, roughly the same as you would be if you were drawing, you'd have a good chance of stopping his draw, but you'd still be in the wrong. In all of this, empty hand skills and interpersonal skills would result in less legal trouble.
December 9, 2011, 08:09 PM
I'm assuming the interpersonal skills have already failed at that point.
If you don't have time to draw a gun, you don't have time to arm yourself with a black-jack either.
If, for whatever reason I'm not going to easily be able to draw, then unarmed combat is what it is...
December 9, 2011, 08:16 PM
I really would rather not be trying to wack someone, or slice them and have them pull a gun.
If you do it right first, that is the end of the fight.
December 9, 2011, 08:18 PM
Friend of mine spent 2 weeks in county jail because he hit a guy in a bar fight with an ashtray off the table. He's 6'2 245lbs. The other dude made him look like a toddler. But my buddy now has an assault and battery record and he can't own any firearms. Just trying to defend himself. What's it gonna look like to a judge when you hit somebody with a blackjack or something similar that you carry everyday? I'm not saying you can't defend yourself, just be prepared to have to "lawyer up" whether you shoot somebody or pummel them with a stick.
December 9, 2011, 08:30 PM
If you don't have time to draw a gun, you don't have time to arm yourself with a black-jack either.
I'd rather be unable to draw a baton/blackjack/sap and fumble over it than do it with a gun.
December 9, 2011, 10:57 PM
I don't know why I would want one. I do not intend to get into any fights, and if I am attacked I need more than a sap.
December 9, 2011, 11:31 PM
I drove over the road for a number of years. This placed me in many different jurisdictions and to many conflicting jurisdictions to carry a blackjack, pepper spray, stungun or other nonlethal device.
I carried a 24oz claw hammer. When stopped and asked, I explained that I used it to thump tires and block and brace loads. It came in very handy one night when I had to place it between the legs of a punk who wasn't as tough as he thought.
An ABC Fire Extinguisher is legal and nonthreatning. It is also extremely effective. It has a range of 20ft. Should deploy at 15ft.
When inhaled it causes the target to immediately start coughing, gaging and wretching.
In the eyes, it causes immediate tearing and burning. If untreated it will cause damage up to and including blindness.
Swung sharply it will break an arm.
December 10, 2011, 12:46 PM
ITC, you beat me to it. Folks going to Mexico used to ask me what they should carry for defense - I told them a fire extinguesher. If anybody asked why they had one in their tent (or motel room), just tell them you were burned as a child. At a car accident or "disabled" car, take it with you "in case there is a fire".
Whenever someone mentions knives, I ask if getting covered with the blood of a hype with HIV is part of their long term survival plan.
And if I got into an argument that heated that someone wanted to hit me, "Nike time!" It's just not that important, and besides, if you strike back, it can be considered 'mutual combat', and you become an agressor as well, liable for the injuries ultimatly suffered by the other combatant.
It's may not be considered defense of your life, if you stuck around to 'duke it out'.
December 10, 2011, 01:16 PM
In Texas blackjacks, brass knuckles, and knives with blades in over 51/2 inches are prohibited weapons. Blackjacks and knuckles will get you jailed with losing your CHL as one result. The knife may be overlooked depending on the cop. Also, a big stick or some such can be interpreted to be a club.
December 10, 2011, 01:16 PM
+1 to the SAP gloves. I have a fingerless set, and each glove has about ten ounces of steel shot in each. As far as I know, they are legal here in Colorado (as long as you're not directly instigating situations with them, which you shouldn't do regardless :rolleyes:)
They're actually pretty unassuming, and the effect they give is pretty remarkable. When I bought them, I was like, "that was a waste of money. These are going to hurt my hands WORSE if I punch anything." wrong- the biggest benefit they have is they actually shield your hand against whatever you hit with them. I was throwing punches against things to where if I wasn't wearing them, I would have three or four broken fingers. Overall usefulness however, I think is slim to nil. If you have to punch anyone, I would rather do it without since wearing them looks like you were picking the fight, since you came "prepared" to do so. Well, they're kind of a fun novelty, being able to turn your hands into dead blow hammers. And technically it's open carry ;)
December 10, 2011, 01:56 PM
I live in Florida and blackjack and saps are legal but you have to have a concealed carry permit. In Florida it is legal to carry a gun in your car without a permit as long as it is secure in a holster, glovebox, firearmbox, ammo box, etc. It has to be secured and not readily available to children. I wonder if you are able to carry a firearm in your car w/o a permit, can you carry a blackjack in your car without one?
December 10, 2011, 03:03 PM
Hhmmm....Well. with re: to post # 11, I've seen a # of said "punks" carrying canes for much the same reason that they're being recommended in this forum. And, if those folks are carrying them, I'd say they know how to use them, for both offense & defense. I won't even bother to do more than mention that they probably get a bit more practice using them than do the law-abiding members of this forum.--Patrice
December 10, 2011, 05:13 PM
Whenever someone mentions knives, I ask if getting covered with the blood of a hype with HIV is part of their long term survival plan.
This is a very good point, something that people forget. But it's even more reason to be used as a last resort.
December 10, 2011, 06:48 PM
Good call BlackFeather. I carry my push-button knife and my Colt. The way I look at it, is if I have to use my knife against someone to fend them off, I really need to be using the Colt instead.
December 11, 2011, 07:43 AM
Well, I DO prefer a knife in a lot of situations, mostly the ones I've been in. I can hardly find a situation where a gun would have been any better. But I've still never needed the knife. Also, most people don't have the skill or experience with a knife to be in a confrontation and NOT risk open wounds. I can't say I'm any better, even with practice.
I would rather cut someone off of me, who has taken me to the ground, than worry about a gun. I'd rather make a cut on someone who has decided to take a swing with a stick, than avoid and draw a gun. These situations require contact range, and getting out of there fast enough is difficult, much less drawing a concealed firearm. But empty handed I have less risk. My main point is, if he's alone, I don't think I need a knife. If I have to worry about who's next, I'm cutting him away, stabbing the next guy, and hoping I've cleared a way out. Perfect scenario, but I try and be positive. :o
I just don't believe it could be done the same with a firearm. Also, I'm in California and don't have that option.
December 11, 2011, 10:17 AM
In extreme CQB, like grappling, a knife is a very good option, better than a firearm in many ways.
If wielded properly, it is very difficult to be wrested away, unless the assailant has mad knife skills himself.
A knife can't be rendered inoperable by clasping or gripping it.
Knives are intimidating at a primal level; no one likes the idea of being cut.
Obviously, not letting someone close the distance to you would allow use of a superior weapon (read: handgun), but in the real world, you may not have that luxury.
Like any weapon, if a knife is carried with the intention of self defense, you should practice as you would with any other weapon. If you are not prepared mentally to use it, it won't be nearly as effective.
December 11, 2011, 03:32 PM
Saps and blackjacks are Illegal here in NC, that being said I've had one for years and still keep in handy in the car. Most folks don't realize how deadly a blackjack can be. Unless you are willing to end a life never hit anyone in the head with one; it's just to easy to kill someone.
As several others have suggested a cane is a much better defensive tool, legal everywhere, have a great reach, and will create a sympathy factor if ever used.
December 11, 2011, 04:06 PM
Haven't carried one since I left NC's Central Prison in the 70's...
December 12, 2011, 10:11 AM
There are many reasons to carry something other than a gun. The short list:
A walking stick, older guys have no problems with carrying one, is already in your hand, and if that elusive and mystical guy with a knife at 21 feet finds you, you can fend him off whilst drawing your gun.
You could have other things out like that walking stick or an OC canister when you see someone suspicious, and if it turns out to be a false alarm just put it back in your pocket, but a drawn gun can attract unwanted attention, and harder to return to the holster or pocket.
There are many smart reasons to carry additional protection, as a gun is last resort, and can get you deeper into a situation instead of out it in certain situations. It also depends on where you travel, etc...
Your best second weapon is expertise in hand to hand, but that takes time, so get on it! Martial arts teaches you things that directly apply to shooting, and that list is long ... must run!
December 12, 2011, 04:37 PM
I've never carried a sap, but I've been called one on occasion.
December 12, 2011, 05:20 PM
I hear about how hard it is to try to wrestle away a knife from an individual, if i come across an individual wielding a knife at me I'm just going to shoot him and get the knife away from him and problem solved.
December 12, 2011, 06:11 PM
I believe a "sap" is considered to be a deadly weapon in my state
and is prohibited.
December 12, 2011, 06:37 PM
if i come across an individual wielding a knife at me I'm just going to shoot him and get the knife away from him and problem solved.
It sounds easy ... are you talking from personal experience? I doubt it!
December 12, 2011, 06:53 PM
+1 on never bring a knife to a gunfight...
I'm not going to get into knife duals or dueling blackjacks with someone, I'm not going to get into fisticuffs and wait unit I'm obviously on the verge of losing and being beaten to death.
I am in the gravest extreme in fear for my life, I draw the firearm. If the aggresion / attack stops I dial 911, if the aggresion doesn't stop I use the firearm.
December 12, 2011, 07:08 PM
Like others, I was issued one when I first started in Law Enforcement. You carried it in a sap pocked sewn into your trousers along side the seam. I used it ALL the time. If you weren't careful, and hit someone with the edge, you would open up a nasty laceration on their head or face, but if you used the beavertail side, it was a great tool. . . until I learned how to use my PR-24 more effectively. Sap went into the drawer in about 1980. . .Also, in Colorado it is a "dangerous weapon" and can't be carried or used by a civilian.
December 12, 2011, 07:20 PM
Not legal in Maine. However, I knew a guy who carried one 20 years or so ago, in his back pocket. He worked security on 3rd shift in a VERY bad part of town (and forbidden by his employers to carry a .38 snub), and reasoned that that bad guys carried what ever, so he was willing to risk a criminal charge, if it saved his life. He reasoned that his leather flat sap was silent and if used properly, non-deadly, unlike a gun.
December 12, 2011, 07:24 PM
I wonder if on the Black-jack forum there is a thread titled "Does anyone carry a revolver or a semiauto?"
December 12, 2011, 07:31 PM
CountZero, I hope you mean:
"I use the firearm and then call 9-1-1".
December 12, 2011, 07:34 PM
Either way, if I'm in fear of getting my teeth knocked out I'm dialing 911, whether bullets come out of the end of my firearm or not.
December 14, 2011, 08:52 PM
In different places you can get locked for different things, carrying a knife, carrying a sap, a baton and on and on.
Carry a mini c cell flashlight- I've never heard of anyone being arrested for being afraid of the dark. I used mine to back up some dopers in Amsterdam and it worked great- They "saw the light" so to speak
December 15, 2011, 02:52 AM
December 21, 2011, 09:52 AM
Gofast1320, you bring a valid point about the flashlight. Trouble is, if it's hefty enough to be effective it will kill if you aren't careful. A LEO in in my hometown in Kentucky put down an unruly jail inmate one night with one. Unfortunately, he killed him in the process and wound up going to prison:eek:. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to use one if necessary.
December 21, 2011, 10:00 AM
Looking at the proposed Illinois carry law, there is nothing in there that would allow for black-jacks, saps, batons or any other type of bludgeon.
I suspect Illinois will end up being one of those states where, there will be a permitting process for carrying a firearm, but black-jacks, saps, batons or other type of bludgeons will probably remain illegal.
December 26, 2011, 02:56 AM
Have to be careful. As others have said I can legally CCW as many pistols as I want. But if I have a blackjack or a knife with a blade over 4" I'm probably going to jail. They are not legal in most places to carry either openly or concealed. A weapon is to protect yourself with. If you get busted for what is considered an unlawful weapon you'll probably lose your CCW and maybe your right to own a gun if it's a felony in your area.
December 26, 2011, 03:22 AM
I'n Texas a knife blade cannot be over 5 1/2 inches or it's considered an illegal knife if found on your person
December 27, 2011, 12:31 PM
I live in Kentucky, and am just starting my research into obtaining my CCDW. Per the KY state police website:
What weapons are covered under the CCDW license?
Any weapon from which a shot, readily capable of producing death or serious physical injury, may be discharged.
Any knife other than an ordinary pocket knife or hunting knife.
Billy, nightstick, or club.
Blackjack or slapjack.
Nunchaku karate sticks.
Shiriken or death star.
Artificial knuckles made from plastic, or other similar hard material.
SO, would the states that show reciprocity allow these on my person? Or do I have to abide by the permit laws of whatever state I am driving through?
(I have no interest in carrying anything other than one handgun, and a general purpose knife. Just trying to understand the legal issues)
December 27, 2011, 05:18 PM
Your CCDW may not contravein the laws of the state you visit.
What does that mean?
If your state lets you carry a firearm into a City Hall, but the state you are visiting does not, you cannot.
California (who I doubt will recognize your permit anyway) makes carry of most of those items a felony.
You really don't want to find out, unless you have a close friend who is a lawyer who will defend you for free!
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