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View Full Version : taser/spray options


Kyo
December 7, 2011, 01:53 AM
Not sure if this is the right place for me to put this but I'll shoot it here anyway.

http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/death-of-jorelys-rivera-1253029.html
I know someone who lives in these apartments. I want to get her a taser and pepper spray. I had been planning on it a few months ago but school got in the way. Well, its my last week of school and this is really scary. She's about 120 pounds. Hates guns. These are her options.
If you have had experience with a taser/stun gun and a specific pepper spray, please give me some recommendations so when the gun show comes around I can go ahead and pick up what I need. Thanks!

Ruark
December 7, 2011, 08:09 AM
I've been in the same situation with my daughter, when she was in college, a huge (50,000 students) state university with vast parking lots and parking garages. After extensive research, it became clear that nothing comes close to Fox Labs spray, particularly the cone type. There are some Youtube videos of some tough guys being immobilized by this stuff. It's been described as "like somebody dumping a spoonful of fire ants in each eye."

Try these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kAkHPuBM8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=1cRSury1Vnc

There are several threads on this site containing excellent advice for how to carry and use it. There are definite do's and don'ts.

I don't have any experience with tasers, but have often been advised that they are dangerous because they require the user to get too close to an assailant (within arm's length), not a good idea for a small girl.

MTT TL
December 7, 2011, 11:12 AM
Given the number of ineffective tasering and sprays I see reported daily around the country I have to wonder if either is a good option. I think a good high voltage stun gun might work better, if she is trained in how to use it.

farmerboy
December 7, 2011, 12:20 PM
FOX (stream ) spray you can order it at "galls". She ever does need it , itd be second to a handgun. But most of the time if she has a good head on her shoulders and is aware of her surroundings and alot of times people can just put there selves in a bad predicamment. (parties, so called friends, etc) its something like 80% that when a person gets raped it is someone who already knows the female. So definatley if she would try to choose correctly. And spray if she is corned and needs to. It'll work ta
hats for sure.

BlackFeather
December 7, 2011, 03:10 PM
I'm not fond of any sprays, in my opinion the only way to effectively "blind" an opponent is with actual material. Sand, glass, ash, salt, that stuff. But, I believe that's kind of illegal in most cases.

Stun Guns, Taser is a name brand, are a decent choice. They make a noise that incites fear. The main reason, I think, the police don't use the contact guns is because you have to keep that contact. A gun that shoots electrodes should be better, but training may be an issue. Although, I don't know her or the options available to her. I'd stick with a model that has seen good use and is easy for carry.

In any case, be sure she is willing to carry it properly so it may be accessed, use it on a threat without hesitation, and most importantly be sure she can use it effectively. Practice is always the key.

Normally I'd suggest a knife, but she's not likely to want to use it, ever. I just believe it's far better in any situation where she is on the ground. If it seems she is okay with it, I'd check out IET: Inverted Edge Tactics. Again, practice is the most important factor.

MTT TL
December 7, 2011, 06:26 PM
Stun Guns, Taser is a name brand, are a decent choice.

Tasers fire darts that provide a connection to the gun. A stun gun provides a direct contact to the subject. This has less points of failure, does not require aiming and firing the darts and then the connection to be effective. It does have the great negative of requiring closer proximity.

farmerboy
December 8, 2011, 12:33 AM
Read where she hates guns, let her go. She's not a keeper!!!!

er775
December 9, 2011, 10:08 AM
As a former firearms and TASER instructor I must respond to the comment that tasers dont work,,,,,BULL$H!!T have you ever been tased? i have and am here to tell you they work IF used correctly I have been tased myself and have used it while making arrests, I bet those guys would disagree with any nay sayers as well.

If she isnt comfortable with guns thats fine, I will say the TASER is more effective that pepper spray, I have seen guys get sprayed and it not really bother them at all, at the same time you have to get some training with the TASER and know how to use it and what to look for when it doesnt give the desired performance the most common reason it doesnt work well is only one probe made contact or there wasnt enough spread between the probes but with training and keeping your head during a situation it is possible to correct the problem and get the desired effect.

if you go with the TASER the citizen model uses a 10 second burst rather than the 5 second burst like the law enforcement model, the reason is it gives the victim time to utilize the TASER them put it down and run to safety while the bad guy is lying there on the ground incapcitated.

Heres the nice thing about it,,if you have to use the TASER to defend yourself, and you run away for help dont think your out of an $800 TASER after you make a police report and send that to TASER they will replace your TASER for free..

Ok OK I will shut up now but dont tell me TASERS dont work cause I will argue with that till death

Kyo
December 11, 2011, 10:47 PM
Read where she hates guns, let her go. She's not a keeper!!!!
seriously? she's shot my 45 dead center her first time at 10 yards. just cause she hates them doesn't mean she's not good with them

C0untZer0
December 11, 2011, 11:18 PM
1) Taser seemed to work on that silly jackass running around the ballpark in Philly.

2) Didn't work so well for Officer Jared Reston, who grappled a suspect after his taser failed. He ended up taking a .45 ACP in the chin but eventually put 3 rounds in his attacker's head.

Having said that, why doesn't this woman go out and get her own taser/spray/firearm/whatever?

Are you her gaurdian angel?

farmerboy
December 12, 2011, 12:03 AM
Hehehehe, Same thing I was thinking!

BlackFeather
December 12, 2011, 03:57 AM
Having said that, why doesn't this woman go out and get her own taser/spray/firearm/whatever?

Are you her gaurdian angel?

Personal reasons are irrelevant. Watch:

I made a 10 inch knife for a good female friend of mine who lives in Ohio. She's actually a love interest of mine, and is living alone in a rural area. She also has had issues with some guys at her college. She keeps the knife around, has a large German Sheppard, and I've also sent her what training videos I can on using a knife. She has firearm training, and is still practicing but can not afford a gun. In the end, the knife was worth around $120, and I spent days on it, because I care. If I could buy her a 9mm, I would, but I can't afford one myself. See?

Farmerboy, your response seems rather harsh, and honestly rude. I've come to understand that you just have no respect for people on here unless they agree with you on everything. I for one am sick of it, but I have yet to say anything, or call you out. Self defense isn't always about killing someone, grow up.

Kyo
December 12, 2011, 10:48 PM
Having said that, why doesn't this woman go out and get her own taser/spray/firearm/whatever?

Are you her gaurdian angel?

You gonna ask that to every guy who shows concern about any woman? The obvious answer is because I can.
I don't know how you are wired, but when people are around me, I feel responsible for them since they are in my company. That's why I carry. I don't have a problem if my friends don't believe in guns. I don't force that issue on them, nor them on me. All I can do is try to accommodate their needs if such a need arises.

farmerboy
December 12, 2011, 10:57 PM
Just curious but I know you have been bouncing different ideas around, what do you think right now is good for her? What kind of spray, tazer or whatever?

C0untZer0
December 12, 2011, 11:07 PM
I've seen this a lot, and it's a recurring theme that crops up on this forum. Males who are into guns and SD theory, situational awareness etc etc... taking it upon themselves to buy weapons for their wives/girlfriends, and unpacking all the usuall justifications.

It comes disguised as kindness and caring but it is predicated on treating another adult like a child.

ProShooter
December 12, 2011, 11:10 PM
After being pepper sprayed 12+ times during my LE career, I can tell you that nothing beats Sabre Red pepper spray. I'm a Sabre instructor now and they offer a training class for civilians. I would suggest signing her up.

farmerboy
December 12, 2011, 11:23 PM
Same background here but disagree about Sabre, I fear Fox myself.

farmerboy
December 13, 2011, 01:03 AM
Just my two cents but whatever a person chooses to Cary they should be trained, continue training and be willing to actually use it if the situation arises. Where it be a gun, knife , taser, spray or whatever. Tasers I'n my opinion are pretty close, too close really. I'd rather spray at 15 feet and some instances I'd rather shoot at 15 yards but I think there's alot of people if they had a situation, and alot of women who would really be afraid to use whatever even if they had something. That's why they're already 20 or 30 years old and never carried yet. Most you probably can buy them something and actually think theyre armed and protected because most won't have it I'n themselves.

ClydeFrog
December 13, 2011, 03:34 AM
There's an old joke about teaching a pig to dance...

:)
Really, if this person won't carry or even use a loaded firearm, I highly doubt he/she will have the mindset or will to carry & use OC spray, EDWs(tasers) or any other self defense device/product.
As I've posted on firearm/tactics forums & message boards in the past; Guns are not props, toys or fashion statements.
Sit down and openly discuss your concerns with the person. Be aware of the legal, moral & social issues too. Know your area's use of force & defense laws.
My state does not allow private citizens to use more the 4oz of chemical agent(OC spray, Mace, pepper spray).
If the person DOES feel they can safely carry a defense weapon or wants to follow the local-state laws, check here; www.Taser.com www.galls.com www.policehq.com www.uscav.com www.qmuniforms.com .
A C2 Taser could protect a citizen in most events. I now use Sabre Red Mk III on my security details. Fox Labs, First Defense, Mace, Galls have good chemical agents(stream, foam, fog, etc). Make sure the OC spray doesn't conflict with energy weapons(Tasers). Flames or sparks may iginite. Yes, it's not a MythBusters bit. LE agencies & security officers have been sued or faced civil lawsuits over it. ;)
Have the person train, document the formal training(with a respected, licensed program) and avoid the cheap gun show or mall ninja $&@#.

Stay safe & stay legal;
CF

Tuckahoe
December 14, 2011, 11:31 PM
I work in a large jail and use OC spray and Taser almost on a weekly basis. I have seen both fail. Given my choice I would take OC spray in 5% or higher in nearly every situation. An X26 taser is a single shot one major drawback to a taser. OC spray will work on multiple attackers.

farmerboy
December 15, 2011, 12:51 AM
Fox 5.3. The most strongest spray there is!

bamaranger
December 15, 2011, 01:43 AM
There is a "civilian model" of the Taser, special features/engineering to disable the attacker and allow the user to "escape". Dart'em, let the device cycle while the user discards it and flees, or so I've been told.

Should have paid more attention in class.

MTT TL
December 15, 2011, 07:52 AM
It comes disguised as kindness and caring but it is predicated on treating another adult like a child.

Or it is just caring lol.

ClydeFrog
December 16, 2011, 02:59 AM
I'm not fully checked out on Tasers or a "expert" but to my understanding the C2 is designed to discharge a longer shock than the X26/X26c models & it sprays tiny RFIDs on the violent attacker to help ID them later.
The law enforcement/spec ops models like the T3/T2 can be used with multiple subjects or shots.
For most citizen uses/private protection I still say the red or yellow model C2 would be better.
I'd get a bright color so you can quickly see it in low/no light(darkness) & a uniformed LE officer or security guard won't mistake the C2 for a firearm.

Those events can & do happen in real life. A female police officer near my city shot & killed a unarmed subject because she jerked out the wrong duty weapon off her uniform belt.
BTW: the T3 Taser is like a hairdryer & the bulky weapon may be hard to conceal. My city's large PD just bought new X26 law enforcement Tasers.

ClydeFrog
ps; The new X26/X26c EDWs run around $1000.00 too.

jeepman4804
December 16, 2011, 06:04 AM
Just my two cents but whatever a person chooses to Cary they should be trained, continue training and be willing to actually use it if the situation arises. Where it be a gun, knife , taser, spray or whatever. Tasers I'n my opinion are pretty close, too close really. I'd rather spray at 15 feet and some instances I'd rather shoot at 15 yards but I think there's alot of people if they had a situation, and alot of women who would really be afraid to use whatever even if they had something. That's why they're already 20 or 30 years old and never carried yet. Most you probably can buy them something and actually think theyre armed and protected because most won't have it I'n themselves.

You realize that a Taser has an effective range of 15-25 feet right? Stun guns are strictly contact. Tastes have the ability to fire projectiles and be a contact weapon. I have NEVER seen anyone shrug off a good Taser hit. The muscular you are the worse it is. I have seen many people shrug off my OC spray like it was nothing, especially in a fight where their adrenaline was through the roof. After they were detained and the adrenaline came back down they felt the effects, but at that point it does you no good. Invest in a good defensive tactics class and a Taser.

compglock17
December 16, 2011, 09:48 AM
I have both been Tased and deployed the Taser several times as a LE Officer. I trust it, but it is not a substitute for a firearm and should not be thought of as an "end all". That being said, if your friend is open to the Taser concept, Taser International sells "civilian" tasers that have longer probe cables and activate for 30 seconds with a single pull of the trigger. LE modles activate for 5 seconds. The civilian models are designed, as I understand it from Taser, to be deployed then dropped, giving the person time to flee. Taser will replace the Taser at no cost if it is deployed and a police report is obtained and sent to them. Check Taser International’s web site for more info http://www.taser.com/products/self-defense-products . Im not a huge fan of civilian OC/Chemical sprays without significant training, I have had to evacuate a few public buildings after accidental discharges of OC! Just make sure your friend is willing to carry and use the Taser before you go out and buy one, as they are not cheap. I would stay away from stun type devices, I have used them too and all they seem to do is tick off an already violent foe!

farmerboy
December 17, 2011, 03:42 AM
Yes they have 15-20 feet if you make a good hit and probes also stick. But first off a woman and then prob scared to death and has never shot a firearm or anything like that? At least a can of o/c she has about 20-30 seconds worth so hopefully she hit with that and then c'mon fox hitting someone and not phasing them, please! Yes i worked I'n a jail I'n past and i will say there are some maybe 1 out of 100 that spray hardly even phases but 1out of 100. To me getting a woman, scared and new to all this and most are not going to defend theirselves even if they had to. A taser would not be as good as spray. And whatever she choses if anything at all i say practice practice and practice.

Powderman
December 17, 2011, 03:59 AM
To the OP...there are a few things that must be considered.

First, as it has been stated, the TASER has a limited range. If you get a good hit, with both leads in the target--great. I have been Tased, and have the scars on my back from it. It works--and it works GREAT!

The greatest problem, however, is this: The user might NOT get a good hit. Or, the attacker may be wearing heavy clothing. Either one might generate a REALLY p.o.'ed assailant. If there is one probe in, then a drive stun is possible--but that requires actual contact.

OC works, as well--but you can actually develop a tolerance for it. I have been OC'd about 6 times. Last time, I took a full hit, right in the face and eyes--I wiped it off and beat my attacker with a foam rubber baton for a full minute. OC doesn't work all the time.

You said that she has fired a handgun, and has the potential to be a good shot. If you don't mind me asking--why, then, does she hate guns?

If she actually needs it, Heaven forbid, a controlled application of something like 9mm Golden Saber or Gold Dot beats the h-e-double toothpicks out of TASER probes.

If you can talk her into it, try to get her in contact with a NRA certified instructor, to take her through the Basic Pistol class. Or, get her to a range with a good target grade .22. Put up some paper targets, and let her go through a brick of them. Do NOT mention antipersonnel use. I have found that most women actually have fun once they see holes in the paper.

BlackFeather
December 17, 2011, 05:08 AM
Gentlemen, consider this, if you think she is unwilling to use a less lethal weapon on a threat, what makes a firearm better for her? He said she's in College, that doesn't mean she's 21 and can have a pistol. What if the pistol is taken, now we have a criminal in possession of a firearm.

I say it all too often, but sometimes an instinctive tool is what people need. A knife may suit her. It's nasty, it's dirty, and won't be pretty, but most women are assaulted at closer ranges(Maybe someone like Pax knows better than I about this) and often don't have the ability to keep a hold on a gun. Put a Sharpie in anyones hand and try to take it away from them without being marked. Instruction, determination to use it, and knowledge of when to use it must be taught and understood. (Just because someone knows what the answer is, doesn't mean they understand why it's the answer.) Though maybe I'm just being the knife wielding maniac again...

compglock17
December 17, 2011, 11:36 AM
To OP: At the end of the day, it boils down to this... Is SHE ready to defend herself at all costs? Not you, not what you would like her to do, not what you hope she will do, what is SHE ready to do? You know her better than we do, you decide. If she is not, get her to pre dial 911 on her cell and be ready to hit send, teach her to avoid danger and listen to the little OH S&#T voice in her head, park under lights, walk in a group ect. You can get her all the guns, tasers, sprays, knives, bazookas, grenades ect and, if she wont use them, they are no good to her an may be used against her! Some people just don’t have that will to fight and survive and that’s ok, but we must accept that those we love may not have the same instincts as we do. Best of luck to you and her, and stay safe!

ClydeFrog
December 17, 2011, 09:49 PM
A small knife or edged weapon would be a HUGE mistake for a entry level citizen who either; A) does not train or prepare correctly to deploy it in a defense related incident or B) is unaware of the use of force/concealed weapon laws of his/her area.
Now I am NOT saying combat type knives or folders can't protect you or that there are no good knives out there; CRKT, Benchmade, Blackhawk, Emerson, Gerber, etc but these work best in trained hands and are not the best idea for most use of force incidents.

That said, about 2 years ago a uniformed security officer(state licensed & trained) in my city had to resort to a small blade to kill a violent attacker who was caught breaking into a empty apartment. The security officer was cleared by law enforcement & the local state atty. His actions met the standards for self-defense but the attack was violent & stressful.
A young college student who is risk adverse or doesn't want to carry weapons may not be able to repel an attack like that incident.

In my US military service, our instructors & cadre kept saying one message to us; Stay alert & stay alive!
CF

farmerboy
December 17, 2011, 10:29 PM
I think this woman is like so many other people. Most get petrified at almost anything and sure wont defend themselves for any reason or help others for that matter. And to them I say call 911 and wait if you can before the attack and if not just handle it the best way you can and call to make a report afterwards (if you can). May sound a bit harsh but thats basically the decision so many want to make for themselves. I had a class about a week ago on sexual assault and a bunch of 911 calls were played of women who heard someone breaking into their home. They had enough time to call 911 and lock theirselves in bedrooms only to be sexual assaulted because they chose not to be armed in their own house. And some called from other locations only to lay there and be sexual assaulted because they also chose not to be armed in public. And if that what some people choose to do, just call and make a report when they get through with you... We do have a right , exercise it!

BlackFeather
December 17, 2011, 11:54 PM
People have been able to kill and defend themselves with edged weapons with little or no experience for centuries. That being said, you are right, training to both deploy and use a weapon is paramount. Let's face it, how often are people able point and shoot a threat without experience versus being able to cut someone who is grabbing them?

The technique, the training, and the practice will do more with less at the advantage of an instinctive reaction of the hands.

Kyo
December 20, 2011, 11:54 PM
You said that she has fired a handgun, and has the potential to be a good shot. If you don't mind me asking--why, then, does she hate guns?
I don't have an answer for you that won't be argued needlessly.

A knife may suit her she has one and keeps it on her outside of school because that isn't allowed there.

To OP: At the end of the day, it boils down to this... Is SHE ready to defend herself at all costs? Not you, not what you would like her to do, not what you hope she will do, what is SHE ready to do?
yep. We've talked about it. She doesn't believe in violence, but that doesn't mean she won't fight for her life. Talked about it in depth. I am satisfied with her intent.

I think this woman is like so many other people. Most get petrified at almost anything and sure wont defend themselves for any reason or help others for that matter
At the risk of being banned you are beyond ridiculous, misogynistic, and have no idea what you are talking about. Every post you have put in this thread has been a flame. Stop posting garbage. I don't know who you date but if I wanted to date myself then I would. I don't expect my GF to be as enthusiastic about guns as I am. I just accept it. You should too.

I already picked up a stun gun for her. She loves it and told me she's gonna keep it on her all the time. Satisfies me.
Skipped the pepper spray because I felt like the stun gun would just be better. The taser started 300+ and I can't afford that since I am a college student too.

Powderman
December 21, 2011, 01:04 AM
This might help, if there is not an underlying reason for her concerns that you know about.

A lot of people I have met do not like guns. Some have an almost phobic/manic fear of firearms.

The first thing I do is to get to know them, and make them comfortable. I NEVER come on strong about firearms ownership when we first start talking. When the subject finally comes up, I elicit a response from them. I will then start in slowly--usually talking about competition shooting and how hard it is, elaborating on all the steps of preparation before we talk about the first shot.

Then, I start in this direction: "You want to know something that's really amazing? It has been my experience that new competitors usually start shooting at a better level than expected, because they don't have anything to unlearn."

If they become conversational at that point, I have them hooked.

The next step is to have them practice with an AIR PISTOL OR RIFLE. Even dyed in the wool antigunners usually find nothing wrong with an airgun.

Ease them out to a place to shoot it. It MUST be:

a. Quiet.
b. Somewhat remote.

Hang your targets--make those bullseyes nice and big for the first time shooter.

After a few sessions, it's time to take the big plunge.

If you don't have one, find the LEAST threatening-looking .22 handgun that you can get. A dedicated target gun will do the job.

Sit her down at the bench, at a well padded rest. Load ONE round at a time, through the magazine. Let her take her time, and praise her well every time she hits the paper.

If she's like the vast majority (about 30 or so) antigunners that I have brought over to our side, she'll be more than ready to continue. If not---well, respect her opinion and try later.

Good luck to you, whichever path you choose.