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Glenn E. Meyer
November 25, 2011, 12:24 PM
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/268431/2010-nypd-firearms-discharge-report.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/nyregion/2010-ny-police-shooting-report-shows-record-lows.html?ref=nyregion

NYPD shooting reports. Of course, they don't directly transfer to civilian SD but still interesting.

Interesting tidbits - most close up, half used one hand, low report of sights usage, most at 6-10 feet, one at fifty (a miss), most didn't have time to get to cover (standard SD cliche).

Large drop in number of shootings from the past.

Some bystanders hit.

FrankenMauser
November 25, 2011, 12:38 PM
30 animals shot, 8 human fatalities, 16 human wounded.

54 targets taken out (including bystanders :rolleyes:) by 52 officers, with 236 shots fired.

I don't want to give them any compliments, but that's a lot better than the LAPD figures I've seen. ;)

Mr. James
November 25, 2011, 02:56 PM
From the Appendix, at page 49:

On August 8, at approximately 0300 hours, in the confines of the 32nd Precinct, four officers became involved in an exchange of gunfire with two male Hispanic subjects, resulting in the demise of one subject and injuries to the other. . . . Police heard gunfire and responded: one uniformed officer approached from the south as an unmarked vehicle with one plainclothes sergeant and two plainclothes officers approached from the north. At some point, the second subject achieved control of the firearm [from the first], and possibly fired on the first subject. He also discharged a round at the lone uniformed officer, who had now closed to within several feet. The uniformed officer returned fire, while the plainclothes officers at the opposite end of the block also began to shoot. . . . Of the criminal participants, the first subject was struck six times and succumbed to his injuries, and the second subject was struck 23 times, but survived. (A grand jury refused to indict the second subject for firing on the uniformed officer.)

Took 23 hits and was still in the fight. Yowza. And what's up with that Grand Jury??

Dwight55
November 25, 2011, 08:27 PM
And what's up with that Grand Jury??


Did you forget, . . . it's New York :rolleyes:

May God bless,
Dwight

Erik
November 27, 2011, 04:56 PM
Apparently, the NYPD remains deficient in its training; an ongoing criticism.

Mello2u
December 2, 2011, 01:47 AM
This makes me think about how many rounds should be used per police officer to give adequate practice each year?

If you assume 100 rounds per the 34,500 officers of the NYPD, that equals 3,450,000 rounds. At $0.10 per round that is $340,000 ($680,000 @ $0.20 per round) just for ammo.

I have talked to one police officer from New Orleans who have admitted that he never took his S&W model 10 out of the holster for the 25 - 30 years he was employed by NOPD. Conversation occurred back in the 70s.

mete
December 2, 2011, 08:11 AM
They spend their money on "community relations " instead of police training .But they don't understand that one shooting incident can wipe out a years worth of community relations !!:(
About 10 years ago a study showed that in actual gunfights the cops hit their target only 10 % of the time !!

SwampYankee
December 2, 2011, 09:47 AM
Training (or lack thereof) seems to be more of an issue around the country. The high cost of ammunition has resulted in many departments failing to quality officers with anything but their service pistol, and there is no ammo for practice. This is especially prevalent in small and poor communities. And when you don't make much money and the department does not see training as their priority, are you going to go out of your way to buy ammo and practice yourself? Considering most cops are not really gun guys, it appears not.

Doc TH
December 2, 2011, 10:30 PM
The first time I was in the Navy ('65-'69) practice to qualify with the .45 was no problem, and always available. The second time (late '70s through eary '80s) I was told I could check out a pistol, but had to buy my own ammunition. This was not a rank issue, I was a senior officer.
Recent Iraq/Afghan Vet's I see at the VA Medical Center have told me there's not a great deal of time or support for practice now.

timothy75
December 4, 2011, 07:50 AM
I wish criminals published an annual report id like to compare the two and see just what those taxpayers are getting for their money.

MTT TL
December 4, 2011, 10:10 AM
The high cost of ammunition has resulted in many departments failing to quality officers with anything but their service pistol, and there is no ammo for practice.

That is a BS excuse. One lawsuit in legal fees alone will fund the entire NYC department training with several hundred rounds a year. That does not even include if they lose.

Of the criminal participants, the first subject was struck six times and succumbed to his injuries, and the second subject was struck 23 times, but survived. (A grand jury refused to indict the second subject for firing on the uniformed officer.)

:confused:

only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing.

Wow! That really is a training issue there. I have not used the pistol much in combat but I always make the effort to aim.

There were also eight cases that the department found involving the unauthorized use of firearms. They included three suicides in which officers’ firearms were used, and two shootings that involved what the department described as personal disputes.

:confused:

I can't get the report to open. I am sure there is a lot of useful information in there.

kraigwy
December 4, 2011, 10:43 AM
only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing.

I don't think that means only "only one officer used his sights" I think it means only "one officer remembers using his sights" which is understandable.

If you are trained, and practice what you are trained, it becomes "motor memory" you do it without thinking and you often don't remember doing it.

An example from Linda Miller and Keith Cunningham's book 'SECRETS OF MENTAL MARKSMANSHIP, they relate a story of a state trooper making a traffic stop where the bandit stepped out of the car and fired at the trooper hitting him in the chest with a load of buckshot.

The next thing the trooper remembered was that he was changing magazines and scanning left and right. The bandit was laying against the car "stitched from belt buckle to throat with seven 45 slugs.

The trooper didn't remember using his sights, but he did. It appears this trooper was a ISPC shooter. He practices and fired thousands of rounds where he developed muscle memory.

Fear often blocks out your actions from your memory, but training + practice = muscle memory, whether you remember it or not under stress you training and practice kicks in.

Most shoot outs involving cop and bandits, or soldiers (one on one), are won by "LUCK" not training, simply because neither the cop nor the soldier are willing to put in the effort to develop the "muscle memory" needed to overcome the luck of their opponent.

Training alone wont do it. All cops and soldiers are trained, its what they do after that training that overcomes luck.

Hiker 1
December 4, 2011, 11:07 AM
Fear often blocks out your actions from your memory, but training + practice = muscle memory, whether you remember it or not under stress you training and practice kicks in.

Well put. Read Dave Grossman's excellent book On Combat for more on this subject and others.

MTT TL
December 4, 2011, 11:20 AM
Actual working link to report:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/268431-2010-nypd-firearms-discharge-report.html

More noteworthy comments:

A sergeant on scene deployed a conducted energy device, but it was ineffective and the subject was able to pull the prongs from his body.

Ersatz experts in police tactics who have never been police officers occasionally claim that shooting to wound is a valid choice even in life-or-death combat situations: they are mistaken.

If a discharge causes death or injury, the officer who fired is required to submit to a Breathalyzer test.

Of the 33 animals involved, 19 were killed and seven injured by police gunfire. All but one of the animals involved were dogs, with 30 of the 32 dogs being pit bulls.

Patriot86
December 4, 2011, 06:53 PM
This is coming from a non LEO let me start off by saying that....but why can't we train our nations police officers to be equal in Marksmanship to say the level of a Marine straight out of basic?

My buddy's little brother is almost done with his 4, never went to an active combat zone, most of his post basic training has not been directly weapons related, but he is probably the best <...> shot I have ever seen in person.


If cities really wanted to reduce the already relatively low number of officers wounded and killed in the line of duty, why not simply give them significantly more firearms training?

kraigwy
December 4, 2011, 07:12 PM
....but why can't we train our nations police officers to be equal in Marksmanship to say the level of a Marine straight out of basic?

Because of funding and the fact that most cops simply don't care.

Using the Marine out of basic is a bad example because with civilian LE you're talking about pistol/revolvers vs. rifles for the Marines. Completely different ball game.

Even still, training anyone, rifle or pistol, does no good if the subject doesn't practice what they learn.

It takes an effort on the individuals part. In today's economy local PDs just don't have the money, if they did not many officers would take advantage of it. Too many snivel because they have to qualify once or twice a year. They sure aren't going to spend the money and time to practice on their own. They would demand that the department buy the ammo, and pay them for the time they spend practicing.

This is not a new problem by a long shot, I started in '74, became a range officer in 76. I'm sure the problem existed long before I got into LE.

You have to fight the "IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME" attitude.

MTT TL
December 4, 2011, 07:18 PM
There is a huge difference between soldier and cops that most people don't understand. Soldiers use firepower, threats and intimidation to accomplish their tasks. Cops are not supposed to rely on these but more on diplomacy.

With the policing jobs being performed by soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and the perceived rise in threats domestically from militants the two roles seem to be getting closer.

Glenn Dee
December 4, 2011, 07:29 PM
Hello eveyone...

Unless anyone else has had the privildge of training at an NYPD facility, you probably wouldnt understand the level of training.

NYPD Officers are mandated to train twice a year with their service pistol, and qualify with it once a year. As with any off duty, or second gun they are authorized to use. They get three tries to qualify before being assigned to a rubber gun assignment. Then further training. Then failure to qualify would be grounds for dismissal. So their jobs depend on their ability to qualify. Also the department makes available 50 rounds per month to every member for practice.

In addition members of the service who are authorized to use firearms other than a standard service pistol must also train, and qualify with that gun or gun's. So a member authorized to use an M/4, a Baretta 92, Walther PPk a Remington 700, Ithica or mossberg shotgun, or a stevens 311 would spend a significant amount of time at the range.

The NYPD probably spends more on firearms training than any 10 departments put together. They have more people assigned to firearms training than many other departments have sworn members. The NYPD has a very extensive facility for developing tactics, and research. The NYPD does NOT spend more on community relations than forearms training. Most people do not even understand what community relations is or what they do.

I do admit that since the transition to autoloaders the round count has gone up... off the charts in my opinion. But I also atribute that to the quality of the younger officers, and the political climate in NY these days.

Erik
December 7, 2011, 01:47 AM
Um, training twice a year and qualifying once a year is not a particularly high bar. Actually, come to think of it, it is a rather low one. Though no doubt their budget, given their size, is undoubtedly quite large; a case of looks being deceiving.

Patriot86
December 7, 2011, 08:17 AM
I am not a LEO but 50 rounds a month? I go through at least 200 a month and I am just a civilian.... I know a solider is different than a cop, I know they have very different goals and ways of getting things done but the bottom line officers are more and more often facing "military style"(Note, i did not say "assault rifles" or "assault weapons") threats and bad guys who may be themselves ex military.

If that is true that the NYPD spends that much more on officer training than any other department, bravo for them.

But IMO as a nation we should be spending more to train officers in the fundamentals of what they need to survive an armed encounter; marksmanship and situational awareness.

Glenn Dee
December 7, 2011, 06:40 PM
Hey Guys.

There is a whole lot more training than two days... These two days are just dedicated range days. There is also 16 hrs in service training every quarter. Tactical street training was going on every six months. Station-house training once in a while.

As far as 50 rounds per month. Thats 50 rounds more than most people shoot. Remember were talking about Police Officers, not firearms enthusiasts. Although many people shoot hundreds of rounds in ever range trip, I dont know that they are becoming any better a shot. Keep in mind that training is somewhat different than practicing. I truely believe that shooting skills are perishable... but do we need to shoot 200 rounds a month to stay accurate? The training and practice I mentioned is mandated... nothing to keep anyone from practicing on their own.

While everyone recognize the handgun is as much an officers sign of office as his shield. It is the least often if ever used piece of equipment he must carry. However it is the only piece of equipment that must perform 100%, 100% of the time. So there is something of a trade off... Enough training to maintain proficiency with a tool you will probably never have to use. Such is the nature of firearms.

I guess my point is this. The NYPD is a well trained department that mandates practice. And still the shock of an actual gunfight often challanges all the training and practice. I think this translates well to the civilian world. If that shock can effect a trained Police Officer... So will it most civilians. IMO the question is "What to do about it?"

secret_agent_man
December 7, 2011, 07:14 PM
If that shock can effect a trained Police Officer... So will it most civilians. IMO the question is "What to do about it?"

IMO the answer for "civilians" is to avoid confrontations if at all possible.

Cops, unfortunately, must face the music. But then, the law is slightly more accommodating when it comes to the police.

TexAg
December 7, 2011, 11:00 PM
Did you look at the Appendix? Things seem a lot better than in '71!

jimbob86
December 7, 2011, 11:08 PM
Took 23 hits and was still in the fight. Yowza. And what's up with that Grand Jury??


They figured being shot 23 times was punishment enough.....

timothy75
December 8, 2011, 06:16 AM
I dont think there is a solution honestly. People think if you train hard enough your gunfight is gonna go down like a john woo flick but it aint. Nothings gonna guarantee you'l be calm cool and know exactley what to do in all instances. Law enforcement is dangerous work and gunfights are even more dangerous. Training is great but it doesnt guarantee anything as the numbers prove above. Look at this senario. Two men point guns at eachother and begin firing at 1 yard away, both get shot but are still alive, one man jumps behind a vehical and the other behind a wall. Now which guy is the cop that spent a week at thunder ranch?

Double Naught Spy
December 8, 2011, 07:59 AM
Took 23 hits and was still in the fight.
Yes, the article said he took 23 hits, but did not say he was still in the fight after 23 hits.

NYPD Officers are mandated to train twice a year with their service pistol, and qualify with it once a year. As with any off duty, or second gun they are authorized to use. They get three tries to qualify before being assigned to a rubber gun assignment. Then further training. Then failure to qualify would be grounds for dismissal. So their jobs depend on their ability to qualify. Also the department makes available 50 rounds per month to every member for practice.

While officers may have an allowance of 50 rounds a month for practice, if NYPD is like any other department, very few officers use that allotment and practice.

Many departments have the requirement that officers must qualify annually and failure to do so could result in firing. Few officers are ever fired for failing to qualify, however. This isn't because they are such great shots, but because the testing standards are so low and officers who don't pass the first time are given additional opportunities to pass as well as additional training on top of that to help them to pass.

Is it not strange that after being taught to shoot in the police academy and becoming qualified as police officers that officers have two whole range days a year of training, and yet are given 3 chances to qualify with a passing grade before the rubber gun assignment? This pattern is also similar to many other departments. If the training is so good and officers so well trained, then why in the world would officers be given up to three attempts to pass? Well, it is because there are officers every year who have trouble qualifying.

Based on what I find from the internet, for NYPD, passing is 78% hits (39 of 50) on the large gray COM area of a stationary target from fixed distances out to 25 yards and with a passing grade being able to be attained before by 15 yards. This is also similar to many other departments.

So basically, these shooting qualifications are actually a fairly low standard by which to measure gun proficiency and reflect little about how well an officer will be able to shoot in a conflict on the street where the bad guy, officer, or both may be in motion, using cover, etc.

As far as 50 rounds per month. Thats 50 rounds more than most people shoot. Remember were talking about Police Officers, not firearms enthusiasts.

Well 50 rounds a month is more than most people shoot, but NYPD officers don't have to shoot 50 rounds a month and most people are not law enforcement officers who carry a gun and are involved in protecting the public. Comparing NYPD providing for up to 50 rounds a month for practice for its officers against the average citizen is a very low standard at which to assert the superiority of the officers' firearms skills.

With that said, here is an analysis of NYPD training from 2008. Unless things have changed, I don't see where they are allotted 50 rounds a month for practice and qualifications are twice a year with 45 rounds allowed for practice before taking the 50 round test of shooting a fixed distances of 7, 15, and 25 yards.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG717.pdf

Although many people shoot hundreds of rounds in ever range trip, I dont know that they are becoming any better a shot. Keep in mind that training is somewhat different than practicing.

I am not sure by the fairly low shooting standards and being given the option of 3 times to pass indicates that police officers (as a group) are becoming better shooters either. While most police officers may not be firearms enthusiasts, there are more likely to have to discharge their firearm in a conflict than the average citizen is.

cptnugget
December 8, 2011, 01:25 PM
It seems like most of us are considering marksmanship and other firearm training for police officers without also considering all the competing concerns about how a department spends its money and time. The time and money budgets for training of all kinds is a zero-sum game. Like most people on the forum I'd love to see better marksmanship, tactical and defensive training for my police officers; but if the choice is between increasing the training budget by $300,000 a year and having two more cops, I'm not sure the former is a slam dunk.

Likewise, police need legal, investigation and other training and these also cost money and time and affect how they perform their duties. We demand a lot of our police departments and I have huge respect and gratitude for those who keep the peace and enforce the law, and I can't say for sure that more time at the range is actually the best place for them to spend their money and time.

One thing my local gun club does is make its range available for police events and training. I'd love to see that kind of thing expanded, so we as firearms enthusiasts can help pay for and provide help to police departments and individual officers. It seems like booking noted experts to provide presentations, training and information to officers could be a way for the firearms community to put its money where its mouth is and help departments and officers increase their proficiency with their weapons.

Double Naught Spy
December 8, 2011, 03:43 PM
Well you bring up a point I have mentioned in the past. We do want our cops to be able to perform exceptionally well (at everything), but few people are willing to suffer the increased taxation to make this possible.

One thing my local gun club does is make its range available for police events and training. I'd love to see that kind of thing expanded, so we as firearms enthusiasts can help pay for and provide help to police departments and individual officers.

While this sounds good, the contribution will be extremely limited. In New York, how many of the 33,000+ officers are going to be able to take advantage of such an offer? Are the departments going to pay the officer's salary while he is accepting the free training? They will still have to pay the officers and cover their shifts and/or provide overtime compensation. Especially if not being paid, few officers are going to sacrifice their down time to training classes.

cptnugget
December 8, 2011, 06:26 PM
While this sounds good, the contribution will be extremely limited. In New York, how many of the 33,000+ officers are going to be able to take advantage of such an offer? Are the departments going to pay the officer's salary while he is accepting the free training? They will still have to pay the officers and cover their shifts and/or provide overtime compensation. Especially if not being paid, few officers are going to sacrifice their down time to training classes.

These are all good points. And I can't imagine a department the scale of the NYPD doing something like this; it seems a little more practical in a less-populated area like the one I live in, with smaller departments and smaller budgets.

Glenn Dee
December 8, 2011, 09:09 PM
OK.... So i'll try to respond one comment at a time.

The number of officers who use the 50 rounds available per month is probably somewhare around 20%. More officers should use the ammo. But again the firearm is tha least used tool of most cops. As we get more gen X and young inexperienced officers... This percentage will probably fall.

Yes few officers are terminated for failure to qualify. I believe that has more to do with the quality of the training and coaching. In fact very few officers fail to qualify on the first try. In 25 years I've seen it happen only three or four times. Only seen one female officer terminated for inability to carry a firearm. She was an academy student. As far as testing standards being low? I dont know about that. 100 rounds. 70% to qualify, 81% is a sharpshooter, 91% an marksman, 100 % an expert.

Mostly the reason officers who fail to qualify are retrained, and given anither chance is mostly fudiciary. These Officers are civil service. It cost a lot to train them, and a lot to fire one. As I said before the firearm is the least used piece of equipment, and the least used skill of the police. There is actually the time and space to do some remediation if need be.

I'm not sure where you get the qual course info from... But it's not quite so simple. It's not 50 rounds... it's 100. During a typical summer outdoor cycle an officer will shoot between four, and five hundred rounds on several ranges Including the use of cover, and shooting at moving targets. In addition there is force on force training, and role playing. There is review of the shooting's in the past year, and their results. Weapons are inspected, and repared if need be. Then there are lectures about shooting and guns, firearm retention, tactics and use of cover. Then each string must disasemble and clean their firearm before they can leave. It's a full day of gun's, gun's and more gun's. Not a lot for gun guy's.. but plenty for those who arent enthusiasts. As I was told at the range.. THis is not so much for a gun guy like myself, but force feeding for those who dont have the firearms intrests I do. For me and guys like me it was a day of fun and games... and FREE AMMO.

Before any officer is assigned to the range, or allowed to take possesion of a firearm they must take the "deadly phiysical force" test. Unlike the three chances to qualify. You only get one shot at this brass ring. And you MUST pass with a 100% score. One shot and you must get 100%. Or you loose your job, and get dismissed from the academy. More critical than knowing how to shoot is knowing when to shoot. If you cant get that part in the first try... no reason teaching them how to shoot.

Nordeste
December 9, 2011, 11:08 AM
Would anyone be kind enough as to explain me what's the reason behind the adoption of the famous "New York trigger" for that deparment's Glocks? (provided you can forgive the off-topic). Just IMHO, the stock trigger at 5.5 lbs should be enough, shouldn't it?. In my agency we carry Beretta 92FS and the trigger pull in SA is around that same pull. In DA I estimate it to be no less than 9 lbs.

I guess the reason for that should be making sure that NY officers do not fire their weapons under stress unless they really want to do so, but I still think the stock trigger in a Glock should be enough.

Double Naught Spy
December 9, 2011, 04:44 PM
I'm not sure where you get the qual course info from... But it's not quite so simple. It's not 50 rounds... it's 100.

Really, see because I don't know where you get your information from. I posted the link to where my information came from, but you failed to look at the link. It came from the 2008 New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm Discharge Review Process document to which I provided the link. See pages 35 and 36.

This test is echoed here....
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?97018-NYPD-Firearms-Qualifications

However, this site says we are both wrong and it is actually 150 rounds.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/training_nypd/firearm_tatics.shtml

Yes few officers are terminated for failure to qualify.
Right, so your previous statement that their jobs depend on their ability to qualify really isn't a serious hurdle. It isn't like NYPD has some sort of particularly high standards for shooting prowess that really challenges the shooters. Pretty much everybody passes or is given multiple opportunities and additional retraining if they have trouble passing. And if your information is correct, then a passing grade of 70 is much less impressive. You would have to be a pretty serious screw up to fail to qualify.

Mostly the reason officers who fail to qualify are retrained, and given anither chance is mostly fudiciary.

I really don't care what the reasoning is for coddling along firearms inept officers by giving them multiple attempts to take the test and even to get additional training in order to make that bare minimal qualifying score. It is scary to think that those officers actually exist and may have to use lethal force when the time comes and unless they have recently gone through retraining recently, probably aren't going to be able to shoot to the bare minimun standards they had trouble attaining during non-life threatening qualifications.

Firearms may be amongst some of the least used tools that cops carry, as you have said, but the issue of firearms use isn't one of frequency, but necessity and the consequences that result from improper use.

Glenn Dee
December 9, 2011, 09:23 PM
LOL OK My bad... 100 rounds with the service pistol/revolver, and 50 rounds with an off duty, or second gun. If an officer has no second gun he shoots that portion of the qualification with his service pistol.

I get my information from being there, and doing it for a few years.

If that I see that they upped the practice ammo from 50 to a hundred rounds. Thats a good thing.

There are a few more weapons in the inventory than mentioned here too.

And a few more indoor range locations. Well at least there was a couple of years ago.

The semi anual quals are done in two cycles. Indoor and outdoor. The indoor is not the official qual. However if an instructor see's an officer having difficulty he may have to shoot again.The outdoor qual is the score that will remain on your record.

AS far as the Rand report... While it appears to be thorough, I dont see it as having anything to do with reality. It's long winded repeats the same thing over and over, and makes suppositions based on ohhhh asking the wrong people the wrong questions? This isnt the first Rand study, and then there was the one by colombia university, and there was the LEAA study... This is nothing new. IMO trying to quantify something that changes all the time. IMO the most glaring example of innacuracy is the notion that Officers with 3.5 negative points on their records are more likely to discharge their firearms. That is true... But there is a perfectly good reason for this. ANY street cop would understand it.

Double Naught... I'm not disagreeing with you. In a perfect world all cops would be experts, all physicians would care about the paitents well being, all politicians would be honest... naaa thats taking it too far. I think all departments do the best they can with what they have. I believe the NYPD and all the departments that train there do an exemplary job of firearms training.

As I said the firearm is the least used tool the police officer has, and shooting the least used skill. But both have to work 100% when needed.

Speaking from experience. The training, and practice actually does prepare an officer for a gun fight. It works. The tactics work.

Nordeste
December 10, 2011, 01:56 AM
I agree with the previous fella, training makes the difference.