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coptersteve
November 20, 2011, 09:52 PM
Hello, Man am I frustrated, I went to this little guns and ammo shop looking for plated bullets. I bought 500 rounds of what I believe to be Berry's bullets,they were sold in bulk. 230 grain round nose. they measure .452". I searched everywhere for load data. the owner of the shop told me to use starting load data for FMJ in the same style bullet. My issue is the COAL, it's everywhere. I loaded 10 rounds, winchester brass, CCI LP primers and 4.5 grains of titegroup at 1.230 coal. But I have found COAL up to 1.270. Am I okay with this COAL or should I stretch it out a bit. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have not been to the range yet. How come Berry's doesn't step up and put out load data like most of the other manufactures?:(

Coptersteve

Orochimaru
November 20, 2011, 10:04 PM
I use Berry's plated rounds in numerous calibers. The real secret behind them is to use enough powder to get them out of the barrel, and at the same time stay under about 1200 fps to avoid copper deposits.

Starting at the low end of FMJ usually accomplishes this. Sometimes you can go all the way to the top of the FMJ data, other times you cannot. Going too low (into the lead range) is not a good idea. The plated bullets provide more resistance than their lead counterparts.

I've seen COAL all over the place for 45ACP data, too. I might suggest loading 10 each at 1.230, 1.240, and 1.250 and see which, if any, your firearm seems to like to feed, cycle, and shoot the best.

As for your load -- I think you're probably safe with it. You're 0.3 under the max load for a 230 Lead RN from the Hodgdon site, and it shows an even shorter COAL than you're using. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say about it, but it seems like a sane load to me.

Why doesn't Berry's publish data? I have no idea. I've never had the need for it, although I generally don't flirt with either end of the velocity spectrum. If I was going to do so, I'd probably welcome it. As it stands, I've been able to just use the low end of typical FMJ data (or even Ranier data when available) and get good results.

Shotgun693
November 20, 2011, 10:05 PM
You're getting an OAL variation from 1.230 up to 1.270? While I think that's more than I expect it's likely no big deal with handgun ammo. If It'll chamber I'd shoot it.

Orochimaru
November 20, 2011, 10:07 PM
I read the OP's comment to indicate that he is seeing loading data with COAL from 1.230 to 1.270. Is that what you meant, Coptersteve?

jfrey
November 20, 2011, 10:10 PM
I use the Berry's 200 gr flat point bullet at 1.200 so I would think that 1.230 to 1.240 would be good with the round point. Try them and see how they shoot in YOUR gun and go from there.

Hammerhead
November 20, 2011, 10:20 PM
I use jacketed bullet data with plated bullets in auto pistol cartridges, your far less likely to stick a bullet in the bore that way. My chrono says that plated bullets match up well with FMJ data, especially with Hodgdon FMJ data.

You can use lead data, but don't start at the bottom.

tom234
November 20, 2011, 10:31 PM
Plated bullet manufacturers generally recommend lead bullet load data be used for their plated bullets. E.G........
"We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend reducing maximum charge by 10%. A roll or taper crimp may be used with our bullets; do not over crimp. "
http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm

Charlie_98
November 21, 2011, 08:04 AM
I think the plated bullets are fine for medium range bullets, if you want to drive them to max velocity, I would recommend going with a traditional FMJ design (or copper jacketed design.)

A variance in OAL like that isn't a big deal, like one poster suggested, maybe load a few with different OAL's and see how they function if you think it's going to be a problem.

Sevens
November 21, 2011, 09:53 AM
In a round where you aren't toying with maximum pressures...
And in .45 ACP where the pressures are quite reasonably low even at max...

Find yourself an FMJ .45 factory load that runs & feeds well and if the profile/shape of the Berry's 230 grain plated RN is similar, simply copy the COAL.

No, it will not result in the "same load" as factory, but it will likely feed and you can tweak the charge either way to your liking.

grubbylabs
November 21, 2011, 10:04 AM
Speer's Gold Dot line is plated so you could use that data. The important thing with COL on a 45 is making sure that it functions reliably. Start with the longer COL and work your way down till your gun feeds reliably. If you have a 1911 platform you will likely be able to shoot almost any thing you put into it, however; if you have a XD like I do, you will find that they are pretty picky about what they feed as far as bullet profile and COL.

dickttx
November 21, 2011, 07:43 PM
"Plated bullet manufacturers generally recommend lead bullet load data be used for their plated bullets. E.G........
"We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data..."

True for Rainier. However, Berrys web site says:

FAQ: How do I load Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets?
Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

Ozzieman
November 21, 2011, 08:50 PM
I’m kind of curious why those of you that use plated bullets chose them over good quality lead?
Other that indoor range restrictions for lead I don’t see the reason to spend the added price of shooting plated over lead and my experience with plated (which is limited to 9mm only) lead was more accurate.

Penn bullets: 230 45 ACP, 1000 for 90$
Cabalas Rainier 230 RN ACP, 500 for 80$
The other advantage with the Penn bullets is that you can get them sized from .451 to .455.
http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html
To me lead always wins.

grubbylabs
November 21, 2011, 09:23 PM
I don't shoot plated, I cast my own. Since I get my led for free, it costs me about 2.50 for 50 rounds.

hk33ka1
November 21, 2011, 11:54 PM
You may want to try cycling some dummy rounds through your pistol to see how they chamber. The plated bullets I used had a different nose shape than 230gr FMJ and had to be seated deaper around 1.20" to get the slide to close reliably on my 1911.

No point loading up 500 that won't chamber or cycle the slide on firing.

Jim243
November 22, 2011, 01:53 AM
How come Berry's doesn't step up and put out load data like most of the other manufactures

It cost money and Liability Ins. to bet your butt on publishing that kind of data, or so I have been told. And it does. Just don't get me started on Berry's bullets.

Jim

Sevens
November 22, 2011, 07:54 AM
Just don't get me started on Berry's bullets.
Yeah, me either. Darn good bullets for a decent price with a fine company that backs 'em. I use 'em in six different sizes and all to great effect.

BDS-THR
November 22, 2011, 10:50 AM
You don't need to use the OAL listed on published load data as universal receivers/testing barrel fixtures used to measure chamber pressures are not real pistols and using published OALs WILL NOT ensure reliable feeding/chambering of finished rounds in YOUR pistols.

Berry's bullets are sized more like lead bullets and I use lead load data or start-to-mid level jacketed load data as Berry's website (http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx) indicates.

Determining OAL should not be a guessing game and I use the following process (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7717654#post7717654) for semi-auto loads whenever I use a new bullet to determine the Max and Ideal OAL:

1. Make sure resized cases drop freely into the barrel chamber. If not, adjust the resizing die to ensure the cases are resized full-length and fall in freely into the chamber.

2. Determine Max OAL - Make a dummy round (no powder/primer) and perform the barrel drop test starting with the SAAMI max OAL until it falls in freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the start of rifling. To determine the amount of taper crimp to return the flare back to flat, I usually add .020" to the diameter of the bullet (So for .451" diameter bullet, .471" taper crimp and for .452" bullet, .472" taper crimp).

3. Determine Ideal OAL - Load the Max OAL dummy round in the magazine and manually release the slide without riding the slide with hand. Incrementally decrease the OAL until dummy round reliably feed/chamber. Depending on the pistol/barrel used, Ideal OAL that will work reliably will vary. If you are reloading for multiple pistols, use the Ideal OAL that will work reliably in all the pistols.

4. Conduct powder work up using Ideal OAL - Regardless of the scale used, I highly recommend the use of check weights to verify the accuracy of powder charges to 1/10 of grain (my accepted standard for match grade loads) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212586/lyman-shooters-weight-check-set

Not all factory/aftermarket pistol barrels have the same groove diameter, leade length, rifling type as used in the test barrels to develop load data that result in different high pressure gas leakage and may require different powder charges to produce same chamber pressures. If you do not have a chrono (or can't use one because you are shooting at indoor ranges), I typically use consistent shot group sizes as indicator of consistent chamber pressures without exceeding published load data (when shorter OALs are used, I often use a slight buffer headroom near the max load data - maybe .2-.3 gr less).

Variations in the published load data are due to variations in reloading/testing components. Many post they will follow the bullet manufacturers' load data instead of powder manufacturers but the fact is even when using the same bullet, their pistol barrel may not duplicate the chamber pressures the test barrel fixtures produced.

Powder manufacturers do change formulation over time and I recommend the use of current published load data from various powder manufacturers (most current load data are usually available on Powder manufacturers' websites) while referencing bullet manufacturers' load data like Lyman #49 (under $17 and must have reference especially for lead reloads) - http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=LY9816049

Starting with the published start charge (or 10% below max), load 10 rounds of each increment of .1-.2 gr in powder charge. If using shorter OAL than published/typical for bullet type, I will decrease my start charge by .2-.3 gr. For initial range trip, 3 rounds are shot at 7-10-15 yards and shot groups are compared to identify charge range that reliably cycled the slide/extracted cases while looking for accuracy trends (usually 2-3 powder charges will stand out). On range trip #2 and subsequent trips, I will verify most accurate powder charges with 5 round shot groups at 7-10-15 yards (Typically, I will use 3 consecutive range tests to verify the accuracy of particularly accurate loads).

Conducting full work up allows you to identify the most accurate powder charge for the particular bullet/OAL combination and lighter target/plinking loads that still produce accurate shot groups while reliably cycling the slide/extracting the spent cases.

amamnn
November 22, 2011, 11:20 AM
Someone asked why plated instead of lead. Personally, I don't want to handle the lead or breathe it in while cooking and casting it, shooting it at the indoor range or while dealing with the dust in cleaning media and on patches and brushes. I handled and breathed enough of it back when we had no idea that it could be harmful, so I am protecting what brain cells I have left.

I am old enough to do what I want these days and I don't want to fool with gas checks any more. Berry's plated bullets work just as well as lead for my plinking purposes, and I only use jacketed HPs for my PP rounds. The price of the plated bullets is a bit less than jacketed, and that's a help.

brickeyee
November 22, 2011, 11:34 AM
we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual.

That is what the lead bullets use.

Try comparing some data.

dunerjeff
November 22, 2011, 03:47 PM
Why plated instead of lead? My current situation after switching to lead 45 cal=plated 2 bullet types 1 185gr,1-200gr /for all three barrels
lead 2 bullet types but 1 @.451,1@.453 for each weight/thats twice as many bullets I need because lead has to be sized for each barrel

9mm 3 bullet types.plated=1-115gr,1-124/125gr,1-147gr,all bullets work in all barrels
lead=2 types but need every bullet in.356,357,.358 sizes to get rid of leading,thats three times as many bullets I need to buy.
40 cal=same as above
now enter ten times the $ amount spent on cemicals/choreboy/Lewis lead remover/Foul out system just to clean leading(which you will get)
Before switching I just had to clean once and a while just the gun itself not much the barrel(didn't need to,plated didn't foul it),now EVERY single time I shoot,clean the bore,clean the bore,clean the bore,ect,ect,,
But I will say Lead does tend to shoot more accurate,thats why I'm still doing it for now.(Just got to try to minimize that dang leading more)

Saying lead is so much cheaper is like driving 100 miles to buy something $10 less but not counting the $ in gas it took to get you there when bragging about how you saved. Casting your own, thats a different story

BDS-THR
November 22, 2011, 06:21 PM
While you are shooting 230 gr RN bullets, consider Berry's 185 gr HBRN bullets. Due to the hollow base which expands readily for more consistent chamber pressures, nose profile follows the heavier 230 gr RN bullet and feeds/chambers just as well.

I load the 185 gr HBRN to the same OAL as the 230 gr RN and it has produced good accuracy with less recoil. Another plus is that 185 gr bullet costs less than 230 gr bullet (Powder Valley (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) stocks them for $108/1000).

Left is factory 230 gr FMJ RN and 185 gr HBRN on the right.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152965&stc=1&d=1321629995

hk33ka1
November 22, 2011, 07:33 PM
For those who don't want to be exposed to lead remember most primers use lead styphnate. It is in the air when you shoot, and it is in the cases that get tumbled and in the tumbler dust. You need to be careful in all stages of the handling of ammo if it is a concern.

Ozzieman
November 22, 2011, 09:25 PM
Saying lead is so much cheaper is like driving 100 miles to buy something $10 less but not counting the $ in gas it took to get you there when bragging about how you saved.

What?

If you’re having that much trouble with leading then the bullets you’re using are too soft.
I have shot 44 cal bullets at over 1400 fps out of a rifle without gas checks and the leading is not an issue. If you’re worried about leading get Penn in premium grade, they have a 20+ BHN and will take 1600 FPS with no leading and it’s still cheaper than plated.
Lead IS cheaper and I didn’t have to drive 100 miles to get it. And copper fouling is harder to clean than lead.:)

hk33ka1
November 22, 2011, 09:30 PM
Most of the time leading is a result of boolit sizing issues more so than softness. Lube, velocity, and the type or condition of bore can also be a culprit but more often than not the bullet is too small for the barrel. Casting your own lets you choose the size your gun needs, not what is available at the local shop. The hardest bullet in the world can still lead if it is too small for the bore.

Jim243
November 22, 2011, 09:43 PM
more often than not the bullet is too small for the barrel.

You can say that again!!! In my case too small for three different barrels in three different guns. Something to do with a lack of quality control.

If you want decent plated bullets try Rocky Mountian Reloading. http://www.rmrbullets.com/

Longdayjake has some of the best, or at least I have bought 1,000s from him that I have never had a problem with.

Just my opinion.
Jim

grubbylabs
November 22, 2011, 10:53 PM
I have not had to clean lead from any of my barrels and I think I have put over a 1,000 through my several different guns without a problem. And it costs me about 2.50 per 50 for my 45 since my lead is free and I am shooting 6 grains of Unique. My 44 and 45-70 are a bit more but I am also using quite a bit more powder in them plus a gas check. I did however have to drive about 10 miles for the free lead though.

Slug your boars and leading won't be a problem. I even pushed the gas checked 44 cal at 2,100 fps out of a Win 444.

dunerjeff
November 22, 2011, 11:30 PM
SO ,why do you think I get .451 AND .453 bullets?Why do I say I need .356,.357,and.358 9mm bullet? Lets see, how would I know I NEED those sizes?HMMMMM.OH YA I DIDslug my boresDUHHH.my bullets ARE .001-.002 OVER bore sizes. I DO shoot Penn bullets,plus Missouri18bhn,Mid Atlantis,in the past I had 14 bhn bullets ,My bores have been polished,I have pushed slow,med ,high.Fast powders,medium powders,slow powders.Unless I personally see someone shoot 1000 shots and have a clean bore I will never believe them.I don't get a lot of leading,but it is there and it needs to be addressed mostly 9mm and 40.

HKGuns
November 23, 2011, 04:31 PM
I use Ranier with a lot of success and I load them just as I would lead.....No issues at all in any of my pistols.

I’m kind of curious why those of you that use plated bullets chose them over good quality lead?

They ARE lead, I use plated in my poly bore HK pistols.

Don P
November 23, 2011, 04:49 PM
I doubt that a 45 acp round will chamber at a OAL of 1.270 let alone fit in the magazine. The longest I can go with 45 acp is 1.255. anything above 1.255 OAL and the round will not chamber. IMO anything under 1.250 OAL should work. Field strip your pistol and try and drop that 1.270 into the barrel to see if it will chamber. Most probably the rim of the case will be sticking above the hood of the barrel:eek:

grubbylabs
November 23, 2011, 05:20 PM
SO ,why do you think I get .451 AND .453 bullets?Why do I say I need .356,.357,and.358 9mm bullet? Lets see, how would I know I NEED those sizes?HMMMMM.OH YA I DIDslug my boresDUHHH.my bullets ARE .001-.002 OVER bore sizes. I DO shoot Penn bullets,plus Missouri18bhn,Mid Atlantis,in the past I had 14 bhn bullets ,My bores have been polished,I have pushed slow,med ,high.Fast powders,medium powders,slow powders.Unless I personally see someone shoot 1000 shots and have a clean bore I will never believe them.I don't get a lot of leading,but it is there and it needs to be addressed mostly 9mm and 40.

Believe what you will but between 4 guns I bet I am really close to 1,000 rounds if not over. I know how many primers I have bought and how many I have left.

Don't know why you are leading but the bullet that I cast do not cause me any problems.