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Cascade1911
November 13, 2011, 08:23 AM
One more time ;)

Got my trusty Ruger Model 77 in .270 Win about thirty years ago (16 yo at the time). Spent a lot of time deciding on the cartridge. Had dreams of hunting antelope out west (never did) and did use it for long range chuck hunting. Mainly though I use it for white tail. I've never seen a deer here in New York more than fifty yards and most I've take between 25 and 40 yards. Last year was my closest shot at about 10 yards.
Now the .270 drops them in their tracks but sure makes a mess. I usually loose the better part of a front shoulder to blood shot. On the other hand I've never lost a deer and never had the opportunity to test my untried tracking skills. On the other hand, at the ranges I'm talking about I'd guess I'd have to make a pretty poor shot not to drop them even with the 30/30 or my grandfathers favorite the 303 savage (in a sweet model 99).

So the question for all my neighbors here in the northeast. What rifle/ cartridge you like for white tail?

jmr40
November 13, 2011, 08:55 AM
The 270 you've got is as good as anything else and better than most.

Sea Buck
November 13, 2011, 09:22 AM
The .270 is a great caliber.I used a .30-06 for years and it puts them down from all angles. I went to a .243 this year and it worked the same: DRT. Not as much damage.I going to stick with it for awhile.Good for 'yotes also.

bswiv
November 13, 2011, 09:31 AM
This is not meant to be a criticism but rather a suggestion.

Seeing sense the shots tend to be as close as they are that takeing a little more time with placement could be a solution??

The rifle you have is a very good one and it appears from the fact that you've never lost one that you are a good shot and not prone to letting fly when there is a question.

With those positives maybe just a little more faith in your skill and maybe a few seconds more patience now and then and start putting the shot behind the shoulder. Even a .270 will not mess up meat if it passes through the ribs only.

Granted the deer may run a ways but not far.........

And in this instance you get to keep a very good rifle that you are very familiar with.

On the other hand, if you are set on replacing the rifle, what you'll need to do to reduce meat damage ( without changing shot location ) is to go big and SLOW. Pick something with a large bullet that punches a big hole, breaks bones and goes all the way through, but does not travel so fast as to create a lot of hydrostatic shock to the surrounding tissue.

45/70, .44 mag......that kind of thing......

Personally I use a old .35 Rem which kind of splits the difference in that it does not do a lot of meat damage and it goes through the average deer here in Fl......hogs too.

The 30-30 and the .300 Sav will cause a lot more meat damage than you think.

Cascade1911
November 13, 2011, 09:44 AM
I appreciate the sentiment bswiv. I do shoot generally behind the shoulder. The shoulder I usually loose is the one on the exit side. I've thought on maybe a .35 remington, many seem to like it. A 45-70 is also a thought.

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 11:49 AM
7mm-08

It's the best cartridge for hunting in North America. < Notice the period.:D

Cascade1911
November 13, 2011, 12:35 PM
The question however is the thick woods of New England not the endlessly varied terrain of North America. (even your section of our state has a lot more open terrain then the eastern Adirondacks and northeast Columbia county where I do most of my white tail hunting......)

black mamba
November 13, 2011, 12:41 PM
I will second the "big and slow" suggestion. A .44 mag carbine shooting 240 - 300 grain gas-checked LSWC or WFN bullets would be perfect. Complete pass throughs from any angle with little meat loss from high velocity shock.

sc outdoorsman
November 13, 2011, 01:20 PM
Around here if the shot distance is limited to under 40 yards a lot of people use 12 ga. shotguns with 00-000 buck and full chokes. The meat damage is a lot less with buckshot. You may not be used to this type of hunting, but we have stands that are set up similarly and that's all we use when we hunt them.

Daryl
November 13, 2011, 01:31 PM
First, the solution may be more simple than you think.

I blew big holes in our little whitetail deer (coues deer) here in Az for some time, simply because the only bullets that my local shop carried for reloading were Sierra Game Kings.

Better bullets make a huge difference. You may want to try shooting a load that uses better bullets; bullets designed for limited expansion, rather than quick expansion like so many do these days. You can even buy factory fodder that's loaded with premium bullets, and they'll make a big difference in the amount of meat damaged.

If, however, you're determined to try another rifle (nothing wrong with that notion, either), and your shots are close, I'd suggest something along the lines of a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge. Something like a .44 mag, .45 Colt, or even a .357 mag would do fine. A short barreled lever action carbine is fast handling, hard hitting, and plenty accurate enough for the type hunting you describe.

I have a 16" barreled Win '92 in .45 Colt that would be just the ticket. I use it for calling bears in thick brush, but it'd work just as well on close range whitetails.

Daryl

upstate81
November 13, 2011, 01:39 PM
From one new yorker to another .35 whelen lever gun fills the void quite well. And is a blast to shoot. i cant use mine in 8F thats why i travel :D after the regular season is done I have plenty of DMP to fill on the farm with a spot light and the 06 ;)

TGDKY
November 13, 2011, 01:42 PM
30.06. :D

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 03:25 PM
The question however is the thick woods of New England not the endlessly varied terrain of North America. (even your section of our state has a lot more open terrain then the eastern Adirondacks and northeast Columbia county where I do most of my white tail hunting......)

Don't matter.

Most of my shots at deer are bow range. Very few over 50 yards. In fact, of over 30 taken with a gun, I've killed TWO over about 50 yards.
Just because a gun CAN kill deer at 500 yards doesn't mean it's not a good 50 yard gun.

7-08. Plenty of power, mild recoil, works well with popular 22" or so barrels, handloads down to 110gr at a blistering 3,300 fps from a 24" barrel, factory ammo at 2,850 and 140gr.

If I could pick any cartridge for big game, it'd be either 25-06 or 7-08. 7-08 if I plan to ever hunt bigger than deer big game and whether or not i reload, 25-06 if its forever a deer gun AND I reload.

Buzzcook
November 13, 2011, 05:10 PM
Try different bullets.

At the ranges your talking about a shotgun would work to.

Daryl
November 13, 2011, 05:50 PM
Just because a gun CAN kill deer at 500 yards doesn't mean it's not a good 50 yard gun.

This is exactly right; however, high velocity with fragile bullets can cause massive meat damage, especially at close range where velocities are highest. This was the OP's complaint.


7-08. Plenty of power, mild recoil, works well with popular 22" or so barrels, handloads down to 110gr at a blistering 3,300 fps from a 24" barrel, factory ammo at 2,850 and 140gr.

Very good point, but the issue was meat damage. Light for caliber bullets at high velocity are bad about just that, although they do kill well. A well constructed 7mm bullet at the above mentioned 2850 fps might work very well, although likely no better than the .270 Win with equal bullets.


If I could pick any cartridge for big game, it'd be either 25-06 or 7-08. 7-08 if I plan to ever hunt bigger than deer big game and whether or not i reload, 25-06 if its forever a deer gun AND I reload.


peetzakilla


The difference between the 25-06, 7mm-08, and the .270 Win are minimal. I'd not buy one of the others if I already owned one of the three. I like most cartridges based on the .308 and '06 cases; they perform well in the game fields, but performance differences, and differences in damage done on target are minimal, and vary mostly from the type and construction of the bullet used.

Of course, all bets are off on meat damage if large bones are hit with a high velocity bullet. To prevent this type of damage, a larger, slower bullet can be just the ticket; especially at closer ranges.

Daryl

stu925
November 13, 2011, 05:55 PM
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser is my pick. Mine was handed down from my father and is my absolute favorite whitetail cartridge. With my reloads it'll group into <1" at 100 yds and drops deer like there's no tomorrow when I do my part. My longest shot at a deer was in the neighborhood of 100yds, shortest about 15yds. I'm actually considering picking up a couple of the CZ rifles in 6.5x55 for my boys for when they are old enough to start hunting I like the cartridge that much. All that being said There usually is some meat loss around the wound but generally not too bad, I imagine that if hit in the shoulder you'd lose most of that shoulder. I think you're probably going to lose meat no matter what cartridge you use if it penetrates the shoulder but I could be wrong.

Stu

Goatwhiskers
November 13, 2011, 06:34 PM
How about a neck shot? Minimal meat damage. Goat

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 07:10 PM
Of course, all bets are off on meat damage if large bones are hit with a high velocity bullet. To prevent this type of damage, a larger, slower bullet can be just the ticket; especially at closer ranges.


The solution is to stop shooting at "meaty" places and use bullets that DON'T fragment.

I shot a small deer last year at 40 yards with my 15" Encore in 7-08 loaded with 110gr Barnes TTSX. Granted, I "only" get 2,850 with 110gr in the 15" barrel but those bullets DO NOT fragment. I got complete penetration, excellent expansion (exit hole about 1") and ZERO meat damage (not counting ribs which I don't use).

Bullets that won't hold together should not be used. That's why I use the TTSX.

I've only found one thing to be constant, across bullet types and cartridge choices.... shoot meat, damage meat, don't shoot meat, don't damage meat.

If I had a 270 I wouldn't bother switching to a 7-08 or anything else for deer. I'd load Barnes TTSX and use the 270 and I wouldn't aim for "meaty" places. But, I don't (and wouldn't) have a 270. But the OP didn't ask that question, he asked what cartridge we like.

I don't understand shooting deer in the shoulder on purpose. Sure, I've put a bullet or three through shoulders but typical shots don't call for it at all. Even at fairly sharp angles you can hit both lungs and still miss the opposite shoulder.

I also don't buy the idea that large and slow makes less meat damage. By far, the vast majority of deer that I've killed with a gun have been with 12ga slugs. I have used slugs from 400gr at approximately 1250fps up to 300gr and 2100fps. They all destroy massive amounts of any meat they hit. No more, and no less, than rifle bullets that I've seen.

ZeroJunk
November 13, 2011, 07:22 PM
If there is much fit to eat on a deer's shoulder I've never seemed to be able to find it. If I happen to ruin a deer's shoulder it is not a big deal. Two or three pounds of something that's only fit to grind in to burger anyway. A high shot messing up the loins is something to avoid. And obviously, if you hit him in a ham you really messed up.

camper4lyfe
November 13, 2011, 08:04 PM
For the ranges you're looking at, a 12ga is perfect. Your 270 is way overkill.

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 08:08 PM
There's not a snowballs chance in hell that I'd carry a heavy, bulky, high-recoiling cannon like a 12ga if I had a 270 in the safe that I could legally use. Not a snowballs chance.

arch308
November 13, 2011, 08:39 PM
I agree with peetzakilla, I find rib to rib shots drop them quick enough, leave a good blood trail, and harm no meat. If I was hunting in your neck of the woods my trusty Marlin 30-30 would be the ticket, or my Rossi 45 Colt.

stu925
November 13, 2011, 08:44 PM
If there is much fit to eat on a deer's shoulder I've never seemed to be able to find it.

I use all that shoulder meat in sausage. Actually venison breakfast sausage is one of my favorite foods so I'd be pretty upset if I ruined an entire shoulder.

Stu

ZeroJunk
November 13, 2011, 09:10 PM
I use all that shoulder meat in sausage. Actually venison breakfast sausage is one of my favorite foods so I'd be pretty upset if I ruined an entire shoulder.


It's a where you are at thing I suppose. I usually don't even keep the shoulders. I pick them up with the loader, skin them down to the shoulders, cut the loins out and cut them off at the hams. I don't even gut them. If it is a great big doe I may decide to use the shoulders. Depends.

Here you can kill as many as you want, usually here on the farm or close by.

If you weren't killing them to eat you would be killing them anyway for destroying your crops.

If I lived where you could only kill one deer and that one was hard to find I would probably try to save every bit of it as well.

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 09:24 PM
Wow. I thought throwing away the ribs (which we do) was kind of wasteful. There must be... 15%, at least... of all the meat on the front shoulders? The front legs are A LOT of meat.

ZeroJunk
November 13, 2011, 09:31 PM
Wow. I thought throwing away the ribs (which we do) was kind of wasteful. There must be... 15%, at least... of all the meat on the front shoulders? The front legs are A LOT of meat.

I know people who eat hog guts, heads, and feet. I like chicken gizzards myself, brains and eggs for that matter. One can draw that line wherever he wants.

Brian Pfleuger
November 13, 2011, 10:07 PM
Well, it's your tags you're filling, you can do what you want with the animal but, IMO, there's a lot of difference between eating brains and throwing away almost the entire front half of the animal.
I draw the line at effort vs reward. Front shoulder, legs, neck meat is easy to get, a large percentage of the animal and great for roasts, sausage, steaks, stew, depending on the exact piece. Rib meat is minimal in amount, minimally useful and more trouble than it's worth, in my opinion.

All that other stuff, well, if it ain't muscle, I ain't eating it.
I have 3 rules:
It must be muscle. (No brains, etc)
It must not be required for short-term survival. (No hearts)
It must not be visible from the outside under normal circumstances. (No tongue)

warbirdlover
November 13, 2011, 10:11 PM
The .270 is the perfect whitetail caliber IMHO. Do what the others have suggested and go to a different bullet, like a nosler partition or one of the bonded ones that won't explode. I personally like the coreloks, silvertips etc that open up quickly as the deer drop on the spot. I've never lost meat (using a .300 Win Mag for 18 years) but had some fun times field dressing them. Worth it IMHO as no one else ever puts their tag on my deer.

Picher
November 14, 2011, 09:43 AM
I've used shotgun slugs, .44 Mag handgun, .30-06, .22-250, and .270 Win. The .30-06 is best for most folks and has the best factory ammo bullet selection of any caliber. In wooded country, heavier bullets like the 180 can get through some 6 inch diameter softwoods and kill a deer standing behind. The 180 won't damage as much meat as a 150, but it also won't open up in the lungs quite as well. The 165 grain Rem Core-Loct bullet is excellent for all-around deer hunting.

My family is using Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX bullets in our handloads for .243 Rem, .270 Win, and 30-06. They're excellent and don't spoil as much meat as lead core bullets! The best part is that they don't deposit lead dust and grit in the meat.

Considerable lead has been found in animals shot with higher-velocity cartridges. About 20-30% of the lead is lost as very small particles within meat and can even be distributed widely by the circulation system if a deer is not dispatched quickly. Higher lead levels in children have been traced to game, especially in the South, where hunting seasons are much longer. Lead from shotguns and slower-velocity rifle and handgun rounds don't create lead dust and small particles that can be ingested without knowing.

Jack O'Conner
November 15, 2011, 08:44 PM
30-30 works great at typical woods distances.

Jack

RevGeo
November 16, 2011, 11:11 AM
I'd stick with that .270. I don't live in the northeast but the whitetail hunting in this part of Idaho is usually in pretty heavy cover and a 200 yard shot is a long one.
If I was to buy a new (to me) rifle just for whitetail hunting I'd try to find a fine old Savage 99 in .300 Sav. and stick a receiver sight on it. I don't think there is a better whitetail rig. There may be some just as good, but nothing really better.

musicmatty
November 16, 2011, 12:21 PM
I agree with post #17. I never have taken any shot other than a Neck shot for deer. In fact, the neck shot for any large game animal would be my 1st choice..especially if they are standing still ;) Drops the animal right where they stand and Zero meat damage. Obviously a scoped rifle for this task would be prefered..however, I've seen it done at approx 170yds without a scope right between the eyes with a 356 Win Lever :cool:

GeauxTide
November 16, 2011, 01:35 PM
As mentioned, the 30 and the 303 will damage a shoulder at 50 yards just as bad. With shots mentioned at 50 yards, why not try a neck shot?

DeerSlayer86
November 16, 2011, 01:54 PM
problem: close shots, wasting meat.
solution: take up bow hunting or head shots

Brian Pfleuger
November 16, 2011, 02:59 PM
problem: close shots, wasting meat.
solution: take up bow hunting or head shots

Solution: don't shoot meaty spots.

Putting an arrow through the front shoulder ruins meat too

Use a bullet that doesn't come apart. Don't shoot meaty places. Damage meat problems gone.

223, 50 BMG or anything in between doesn't matter. Don't shoot meaty places no meat damage.

pbrktrt
November 16, 2011, 08:38 PM
Put a 130 gr anything through the lungs and you have a dead deer. It's really that simple. Your .270 is perfect.

Cascade1911
November 21, 2011, 07:29 PM
Ya'll are probably right. You shoot it, something is gonna get wrecked. The main thing is the better part of the animal stays put. Whatever, was just thinking. I just hate throwing away the blood shot. I'm not like you guys in Alabama etc where you have a daily limit.......

upstate81
November 21, 2011, 08:47 PM
Agreed why the heck would you ditch both front shoulders??? And this is coming from a guy who has doe management permits and can hunt night or day 24/7. For example I can use my 06 at 2am with a spot light out of the back of a pickup if I wanted! While during regular gun season its shotgun only.

Colorado Redneck
November 21, 2011, 08:53 PM
115 grain core lokt bullet at 2700 fps and 1875 ft lbs of muzzle energy. Would probably work great to 200 yards, and inflict a bit less damage if the shot was at close range and hit something hard like the shoulder. This is about 900 ft. lbs of energy less than standard factory 130 grain loads.

Daryl
November 22, 2011, 08:09 AM
Wow. I thought throwing away the ribs (which we do) was kind of wasteful. There must be... 15%, at least... of all the meat on the front shoulders? The front legs are A LOT of meat.


In my state (Arizona) and some others I've hunted, they can cite you if you waste ANY edible portion of a game animal. I've seen it happen in Colorado to some fellas who'd cleaned up their deer pretty well. The warden salvaged a small ziplock baggie of meat, and cited them for it.

I can't imagine throwing away the front shoulders. I like venison too much for that, and the meat is precious little as it is.

Daryl

Brian Pfleuger
November 22, 2011, 08:33 AM
In my state (Arizona) and some others I've hunted, they can cite you if you waste ANY edible portion of a game animal. I've seen it happen in Colorado to some fellas who'd cleaned up their deer pretty well. The warden salvaged a small ziplock baggie of meat, and cited them for it.

I can't imagine throwing away the front shoulders. I like venison too much for that, and the meat is precious little as it is.

Daryl

If the law is really that vague, it's insane. What is "edible"? Certainly the heart, liver and tongue would qualify. There is muscle structure all over an animal.... head/face, lower legs.... People eat pigs feet. Are deer feet "edible"? Some people eat brains. Is a brain considered "edible"?

Insanity.

ZeroJunk
November 22, 2011, 11:59 AM
I don't see anything in state law here that addresses how much of the animal you have to keep if any. I know people who love neck roasts, ribs, pretty much keep everything.

I really need to kill more deer than I want. They are a nuisance. A farner friend of mine and his son killed forty some a couple of years ago, and they aren't even hunters per se, they are farmers.

I do feel obligated to keep most of the meat, but not parts that I am not fond of.

My original point was that if I blow a shoulder it is not a deal to decide what cartridge I am going to hunt with. That whole argument is overblown IMO.

Daryl
November 22, 2011, 01:36 PM
If the law is really that vague, it's insane. What is "edible"? Certainly the heart, liver and tongue would qualify. There is muscle structure all over an animal.... head/face, lower legs.... People eat pigs feet. Are deer feet "edible"? Some people eat brains. Is a brain considered "edible"?

Insanity

There's nothing vaque about "any edible portion". Arguable, perhaps, but nothing vague.

And yes, that's what it says.

Insane? Hardly. It helps prevent folks from wasting a natural resource, and I see that as a win-win situation. If I were ever cited for wasting game over a tongue, I'd take it to court. That "arguable" thing would very likely prevail.

That law is one reason I take my animals out as whole as possible; field dress, quarter if necessary, and pack 'em out. I enjoy the meat from what I hunt, so the law isn't a burden to me.

Daryl

Brian Pfleuger
November 22, 2011, 01:46 PM
"ANY edible portion" is EXTREMELY vague and WIDELY open to interpretation.

Fat is edible and you'd better scrape those ribs clean. I don't think you can even argue against heart, liver and tongue. Those things are WIDELY considered edible.

If someone was truly cited for a "small baggie of meat" then ANYONE could be cited, any time, every time. Neck muscle goes all the way up to and attaches to the skull. Better get it all off.

ZeroJunk
November 22, 2011, 02:13 PM
I've eaten sauteed deer heart, fried elk heart, and fried elk mountain oysters. It's all good.

Might have to pay court cost, but a judge would kick that baggie thing out if you wanted to pursue it for the simple reason that a law is unconstitional if it is ambiguous. Dpends on how far you want to push.

Brian Pfleuger
November 22, 2011, 02:27 PM
Here's a recipe for deer brain:

http://www.foodnetwork.ca/recipes/recipe.html?dishid=10730

Not even hard to find. Recipes for tongue, liver and heart are plentiful.

Pickled deer feet recipes are also easy to find.


Vague and open to interpretation doesn't even begin.

Shotgun693
November 22, 2011, 05:14 PM
I've killed a bunch of deer with .45-70 and .45 Colt, rifle and revolver. The deer die quickly and there's very little bloodshot meat. Use a flat ended lead bullet, it's all you need. BTW, every deer I took with the above rounds was 30 yards or less.

Water-Man
November 22, 2011, 05:19 PM
In the Northeast, I've taken the majority of deer with a .35 Remington.

Hog Buster
November 22, 2011, 06:41 PM
“I've never seen a deer here in New York more than fifty yards and most I've take between 25 and 40 yards. Last year was my closest shot at about 10 yards. Now the .270 drops them in their tracks but sure makes a mess. I usually loose the better part of a front shoulder to blood shot.”

Say what?..... Good Lord Man, shoot ‘em in the head at those distances....... No wasted meat.

ammo.crafter
November 22, 2011, 07:58 PM
+ for 15" Contender. I use one in 7-30 Waters which is a sweet cartridge. Minimal damge with 139gr bullets.

treg
November 22, 2011, 11:11 PM
I've had excellent results with Remingtons Managed Recoil loads under the conditions you describe.

My hunting territory sounds a lot like yours and I had the same issues with my .30-06. Didn't like the meat damage after years of shooting them with .44 mag pistols. The MR loads from Remington are well balanced between velocity and bullet design making them very effective on deer without the overkill of standard loads at short to medium range. They perform as advertised, just what the doctor ordered.

Here's a link - http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-recoil/managed-recoil.aspx

and another http://www.chuckhawks.com/rem_managed_recoil.htm

Todd1700
November 23, 2011, 12:06 PM
At those very close ranges and with excessive meat damage being your listed concern then you are making a case for one of the old big and slow calibers like a 44 mag, 45 Colt, 35 Rem, 444 or even 45/70 if you don't mind recoil. You can get them in short easy to carry lever actions that would be fine for the distances you are shooting from. At those distances you could shoot irons sights or just put a straight 4 power scope on it. Old timers call those big slow cartridges "eat right up to the hole" guns. LOL!

hooligan1
November 23, 2011, 02:43 PM
Well here's my three cents worth of deer killin knowledge.

First of all, contrary to what anybody says, the .270 win is NOT overkill....;)

Second of all proper shot placement reduces meat loss.....;)

Thirdly and lastly, Try another type of bullet in your rifle for pure penetration and pass-through, not explosiveness......;)(like peetza said)

Daryl
November 23, 2011, 02:57 PM
Well here's my three cents worth of deer killin knowledge.

First of all, contrary to what anybody says, the .270 win is NOT overkill....

Second of all proper shot placement reduces meat loss.....

Thirdly and lastly, Try another type of bullet in your rifle for pure penetration and pass-through, not explosivenous......(like peetza said)


And what I said, before peetza said it; but what's the fun in that if the OP wants an excuse for a new rifle-gun to hunt deer with (hey, I've used worse'n that!).

Old timers call those big slow cartridges "eat right up to the hole" guns. LOL!

And usiing hardcast bullets you can do just that. With the big bores, there's no need for expansion or excessive velocity. They're juust long range punch-presses that leave a half inch hole coming and going.

hooligan1
November 23, 2011, 06:09 PM
Daryl his reason wasn't creative enough!!!:D:p;)


"Cause I can" is what I prefer to use as an excuse to add to my collection!!:cool:

Rich Mc
December 11, 2011, 11:31 PM
Use a less reactive bullet. The Barnes bullets should drop all their expansion and then just the base flies thru the out shoulder.

I was raised in New England with a 30-06 - also taught to take out a shoulder - no tracking even on the big boys.

I've dropped to a .243 and .357 magnum rifle, depending on range. All 3 will jelly up some meat but if it is just a shoulder, you don't lose much.

Cascade1911
December 12, 2011, 05:42 PM
Lots of good stuff. After reading all the posts and doing a bit of thinking here's what I think:

1) What the heck, so what if I blood shot a shoulder, the sucker dropped in it's tracks and if a longer range shot does arise.......

2) I like the idea of the Barnes bullets.

3) I never need an excuse to buy a rifle, just a direction.

4) A 45/70 lever gun would sure be sweet.

Thanks all.

jimbob86
December 12, 2011, 05:55 PM
Now the .270 drops them in their tracks but sure makes a mess.

Placement is everything. Don't shoot the meat.

It is fine if all it makes a mess of is the lungs and heart. It may not drop to the shot, but it won't go very far...... 30-40 yards. I had one go almost 200 yards once, but it was 460 yards from the muzzle when I shot it...... and the bullet went through both lungs.....