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Ram972
November 7, 2011, 04:19 PM
Hi board members, I have a question that I could use some help with. I am form the city of Dallas and would like to sell a fully auto UZI. Are there any special requirements that I would have to go through in order to sell this weapon?

overkill0084
November 7, 2011, 04:25 PM
Call me skeptical, but IMHO if you went through the necessary hoops to own a full auto weapon legally, you would have a pretty good idea what needs to be done.
Call the BATFE, they will be able to give you the No kidding answer to any of your questions.

Budda
November 7, 2011, 04:29 PM
I would ask where you got the thing.......If you bought it LEGALY you would know how to sell it.....jmo

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 04:41 PM
it was given to me by a family friend.

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 04:43 PM
Depending on when, where, and who you got it from...is it even transferable?

Gotta love Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#Categories_of_firearms_regulated)
For civilian possession, all machineguns must have been manufactured and registered with the ATF prior to May 19, 1986 to be transferable between citizens.

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 04:50 PM
it was given to me about 6 months ago, from a family friend that has had it since the 90's, form what he told me. i really do not know if it is transferable. it came with a box and no paper work, again this weapon was given to me.

chack
November 7, 2011, 04:50 PM
Do you know what full auto is or are you confusing semi auto with full auto? If it came in a box it is probably a semiauto. Look on the reciever to see what markings are on it. It could be Chinese, Israeli, or US made. It could be a pistol, a rifle, or a short barrel rifle.

If it's a semiauto rifle or pistol the sale would be pretty straightforward with no paperwork. If it is a semiauto short barrel rifle, the sale is a little more complicated if you have the transfer paperwork and are in touch with the family friend.

If it IS full auto, you are looking at prison time for possesing it and the only options are to turn it in to the ATF or stripping it, cutting up the reciever and getting rid of the reciever, then selling the parts as a kit

Budda
November 7, 2011, 04:56 PM
...Wow...I wish I had friend just "give" me wepons. How do you find friends like this?:confused:

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 04:56 PM
chack thanks! that is the info i need. the font seems to be Israeli, it has a small switch on the handle. i have not shot the weapon so i really do not know what this switch dose. is there any possibility that this could be a replica ?

Tombstonejim
November 7, 2011, 05:01 PM
Well read this. It will give you an idea of what needs to be done.

If you are serious you need to do a search for a NFA dealer in Texas and go thru them.

http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

http://nfadealers.com/

spanishjames
November 7, 2011, 05:13 PM
Tombstonejim: I just read through some of the steps needed to keep a machine gun, and if I were Ram, I'd strip it and sell the parts, or cut it in half.

chack
November 7, 2011, 05:15 PM
If it is a full auto israeli the most likely possibilities are:

1) registered FA gun that was stolen
2) legally imported semi auto that was illegally converted
3) illegally imported gun

Is it an open bolt gun?

Is there an import stamp on it?

Does it have a fixed firing pin?

Does it have a folding stock?

is it 9mm or .380?

I really hope that you have a semiauto gun and not a full auto.

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 05:27 PM
i really do not know anything about this weapon i opened it to see if the trigger was shaved down or to see if it has been tampered with, but nothing. it shoots a 45 apc. i am going to a ranch today to shoot it. if it is a fully auto ill turn it over and explain what happened. the last thing i want to do is break the law.

oneounceload
November 7, 2011, 05:31 PM
It can not just be GIVEN to you - now both would be guilty of felonies

You really need to speak to an attorney

carguychris
November 7, 2011, 05:33 PM
...Wow...I wish I had friend just "give" me wepons. How do you find friends like this?
If someone gives you an illegal unregistered machine gun, they may not be as much of a "friend" to you as you think. :eek:

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 05:40 PM
oneounceload
carguychris
Guys please read the thread. I really do not know what I have. As I said, if it is illegal ill turn it.

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 05:45 PM
Ram972, as much fun as it might be to get a hold of one, I think we are all hoping that what you have is not what you think it is.

Of course, if it is the closed-bolt blowback semiauto civvie version, by all means, enjoy. By the way, 2011 Standard Catalog of Firearms prices these at $850 NIB

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 05:51 PM
stressfire. i am about to go test it, if it is ill turn it in. if it is not ill go get it checked out.

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 06:02 PM
Might not be a bad idea to consult an attorney also, as oneounceload pointed out, who specializes in firearms law - you don't want to be the one holding the bag on that.

That said, have fun;)

Willie Lowman
November 7, 2011, 06:05 PM
How long is the barrel on this gun? Does it stick out from the front just a coupple inches or about 10 inches?

What does the bolt look like? Is it flat on the side or does it have a slot in it?

http://www.c3junkie.com/uzi/info/closedbolt/images/bolts3.jpg

The selector switch on the side, does it have two positions or three? Safe will be all the way to the back. Fire is one click forward. Full auto (if it has it) is two clicks forward.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMoWmEn91_rCrmDzZb2zo28n3eg7Tm6UBv6iCWokgyIbSe00suVG1wbrBT5Q

If you pull the cocking knob to the back does the bolt stay open like in this pic or does it go back shut?

http://files.uzitalk.com/reference/FAconversions/mini_bolt_round.jpg

Tombstonejim
November 7, 2011, 06:37 PM
Well i don't think you understand. No body can give you a fully auto weapon without the required forms. You are not allowed to take possion untill such forms are filled out and approved. The fact that you have the weapon is a felony. It appears that your so called friend does not have the required forms either. So now both of you are subject to 10 years in the slammer no questions ask.

There is no way you are going to walk into any law agency and just hand it to them and walk out.

Options are.

Give it back to your so called friend.

Dig a hole and bury it with two bags of concrete on top and tell everyone there is a rabid skunk under there.

Find the Dallas chapter of the Sons Of Anarchy and see if they will take it.

I,m betting this thing is stolen Special Forces Property

Now if you happen to be a member of one of the cartels operating out of Texas then you probably really don't care what the laws are.

Budda
November 7, 2011, 07:07 PM
I would talk to an LEO and just tell him whats going on....unless your friend is up to no good. IF he is even a friend...this IS NOT to be delt with lightly.:(

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 07:17 PM
Find the Dallas chapter of the Sons Of Anarchy and see if they will take it.

Thanks, Dude, now I have to wipe a nice mix of snot, saliva, and coffee off of my screen:mad:

this IS NOT to be delt with lightly

Not at all, but OP did say he was headed out to see what the deal was with it.

Maybe its an original, maybe its an illegally modified civilian model, then again friend could just be jerkin' his chain and it might be an everyday, run of the mill semi-auto.

Legally sticky, no doubt

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 07:25 PM
ok guys just shot it. i am even more confused now!! it says it takes a 45 apc. i tried to insert that type of ammo and it did not take. the clip takes 25 rounds of 9mm so i used that. it is not full auto its semi auto although The selector switch has three setting safe, semi and full, i tried all but it kept shooting in semi. when i pull the cocking knob to the back the bolt closes even when i set the switch to full auto.

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 07:42 PM
Definitely weird, but you should be happy that it's not necessarily illegal.

Maybe cobbled together from parts? Is the caliber stamped on the barrel or the frame?

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 07:48 PM
yes the cal is stamped on the frame.

Stressfire
November 7, 2011, 07:52 PM
Cobbled together from spare parts would be my guess then. .45 frame, 9mm barrel, chamber, etc.

Reason for doing so? Who knows. Maybe to make it legal, could have been stolen at one time and modified, your guess is as good as mine.

Might wanna look into finding someone who knows their Uzis

Willie Lowman
November 7, 2011, 08:00 PM
What are the markings on the reciever? Does it say IMI Israel on the left or right side just under where the rear sight is?

Does is say Vector Arms on the left side of the reciever?

Does it say NHM anywhere on it?


I am gonna guess that this is one of the old IMI/Vector guns made with full auto triggers welded into semi auto only.

--------
Edit: I have one of the Uzis that Vector built on the IMI receivers that NHM imported. Most of them were marked .45 ACP or they were marked .22/9mm/.45. It doesn't matter, you can change the caliber of a Uzi in a minute by changing the barrel, bolt, and magazine.

Even if the OP doesn't have one of the guns I am guessing he has, from the sound of it, what he does have is a great 9mm carbine.

As to my previous question about the bolt locking back; If it were a "real" Uzi the bolt would lock open as they are open bolt submachineguns. There are some closed bolt full autos but they are pretty darn rare.

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 08:21 PM
the stamps on the frame are Israeli so i really do not know. i just notice that on the barrel there is a 9mm stamp on it. i also notice that the switch dose not click. it just slides from side to side. although the safety dose work .

Willie Lowman
November 7, 2011, 10:06 PM
If the stamps on it aren't in English I don't know what to tell you.

Take the top cover off of your gun. Remove the bolt and the firing pin, they will just lift out. (you have to dry fire the gun to release the pin)

Now look inside. If you don't see a "blocking bar" you have a illegal machinegun receiver.

Does it look like this toward the back? With the bar on the left side of the receiver? http://files.uzitalk.com/reference/norinco/rearsight.jpg


Or is there nothing there like in this pic?


http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9182&stc=1&d=1178851344

If the gun does not have that bar it is illegal. Like 10 in the pen illegal.

Ram972
November 7, 2011, 10:58 PM
i got it opened, there seems to be a "blocking block". it those not look like the on the pictures. its of a different color and it has some nice welds on it. also the switch fell off :confused:

today i took it in to get it looked at. the gun smith said that it is a fake, the receiver seems to have Hebrew on it but he said it was really a Chinese receiver. he said that "this could have been done to it so that the value of the weapon could go up".

medalguy
November 8, 2011, 07:28 PM
OK so maybe what you have is a dummy gun cobbled together from parts, except you said you shot it so that makes it a firearm. You need to find out what you have exactly.

And for anyone else reading this who MIGHT have an illegal unregistered machine gun: Guys, DO NOT TALK TO A LEO. DO NOT TALK TO YOUR BEST BUDDY. DO NOT TALK TO THE GUY SITTING NEXT TO YOU ON THE BARSTOOL. RUN DO NOT WALK TO A GOOD ATTORNEY. You have an illegal weapon and it is a very serious offense. BATFE does not take these things lightly. An attorney can talk to BATFE and if necessary arrange to surrender the weapon to them. He cannot and will not divulge any information about who his client is, not how/where he obtained the weapon nor anything else. That will be the best couple of hundred bucks you ever spent.

Skans
November 9, 2011, 07:41 AM
It sounds like a semi-auto Norinco UZI where someone (for whatever reason) fitted an Israeli full-auto pistol grip to it, but with semi-auto parts. In the semi-auto pistol grip, I believe there is a blocking bar to prevent the switch from going into the "full-auto" position.

I'm not sure whether moving the switch to the full position (where full-auto parts were replaced with semi-auto parts) would cause the gun to slam-fire. If it does, it is just as illegal even if it won't truly fire full-auto.

Legal Full-Auto UZI's are a different breed. That's because there were several ways to legally modify them back in the day this could be done (and registered). Some were built on Registered full-auto receivers. Some were made by milling a slot in the bolt - these are called "bolt guns", because the bolt is the machine gun. Some were made by taking the blocking bar out of a semi-auto receiver. Still others were made by modifying the semi-auto bolt. I may not have covered them all. You really need someone who is familiar with full-auto UZI's to take a look at it.

chack
November 9, 2011, 11:11 AM
Or a semi auto norinco .45 that someone converted to 9mm with Israeli parts.

Ram972
November 9, 2011, 04:38 PM
thanks everyone for the productive info. i asked my family friend how he got this firearm, he explained that he got it form a military gun store.he dose not know what he got and i do not know what i have. this firearm seems to not be a safe firearm and i have decided to take my torch to it.

Skans
November 9, 2011, 05:05 PM
I wouldn't torch it just yet. If all someone did was put a full-auto grip frame on it, you can simply take it off and replace it with semi-auto grip frame, and the gun should be perfectly fine - if that's the only issue. Now, if someone has been monkeying with the receiver itself or it's got full-auto parts installed, then forget it.

ATCDoktor
November 10, 2011, 11:48 PM
As Skans said, don't torch it just yet.

Go here:

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/

Register and ask your questions there.

It would help if you could post pictures of what you have.

Just so you know, the full auto lower can be used to build semi auto gun if it's properly modified and use the appropriate sear.

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?63178-Can-a-FA-lower-be-used-in-a-semi-build

44 AMP
November 11, 2011, 05:58 PM
And unless registered with the BATFE, prior to May 1986, it is illegal. There is no allowance for making new ones (for legal private ownership), or for registering old ones "found" today.

Having a full auto marking on a gun that does NOT shoot full auto is not automatically a crime. Having a gun with some full auto parts in it (even though it does not shoot full auto) MIGHT BE.

As several have said, contact a lawyer, and not just any lawyer, but one who has some experience in this field. An unregistered machine gun is a felony, 10 years in prison, along with a hefty fine, and loss of your gun rights.

DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE until after getting the lawyer's advice.

DO NOT DISPOSE OF THE GUN, DO NOT CUT IT UP, DO NOT SELL, OR GIVE It TO ANYONE (even back to the original owner) until you know for certain if it is a legal gun, or not.

IF THE GUN IS ILLEGAL, you have ONE legal option, surrender it to the Feds. Doing anything else is committing a crime. Going through a lawyer is the smart thing to do.

TO EVERYONE WHO RECOMMENDED DISPOSING OF THE GUN:
Yes, it seem like good advice, bury it, drop it in the river, cut it up, etc...
BUT, doing that is a Federal crime. Telling someone to do that is advocating committing a crime, and is not something tolerated on TFL.

This is a general warning, to all members, posting advice that advocates committing a crime (any crime) is against forum policy and rules. Please do not do so. You can be banned from the forum for this.

Remember this is a public forum, and anyone can come here and read your posts. Conspiracy to violate Federal Firearms law is not a joke.

Ram972
November 14, 2011, 09:43 PM
the grip is a fully auto grip, with a Chinese receiver. the gunsmith did the proper checks and fired it. everything seems to be legal.