PDA

View Full Version : 308 winchester in a 7.62 nato ishapore enfield


boostedtt91
October 23, 2011, 12:44 AM
I just picked up a enfield ishapore 2a1 7.62 nato. I bought a 100 pack of ammo labeled as 7.62x51 and when i opened the bag, the brass is 308 winchester stamped. Is it safe to shoot these? Now in my hornady reloading manual you use the 308 winchester data and a box of winchester 7.62 nato ammo also says 308 winchester above it so im thinking it should be ok. Any thoughts?

SHNOMIDO
October 23, 2011, 01:21 AM
youre good to go.

normal stuff applies, make sure the gun is in good working condition, if in doubt let a smith check it out. beware of barrel obstruction, beware of bad rounds.

but short answer to your question, they're pretty much identical.

Bud Helms
October 23, 2011, 06:27 AM
The thing is, if they aren't identical, knowing in what way they are not can be critical, or at least educational. That's why some of us are so adamant about the details ... and terminology.

So, there is no such thing are "pretty much identical". They are either identical or not.

They are not identical.

Read:

308 Win vs 7.62 Nato (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93069&highlight=308+vs+62)

The Truth About 7.62x51mm NATO and 308 Winchester (http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39835&d=1229900860)

Now, all this may not matter, depending on your use, but better to know the details and make a knowledgeable decision.

Let's take this to the Art of The Rifle.

PawPaw
October 23, 2011, 07:22 AM
I went to the second link that Bud listed, and read the .pdf file. Lots of interesting data there with references. Lots of reading and notating differences in pressure testing methods, but the conclusion is telling. So, to sum everything up, the pressure difference between the 308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm NATO is less than 2,000 PSI which is statistically insignificant. The same pressure variation may be achieved by firing any rifle on a hot day and on a cold day or by changing brands of primers.

There is a difference between .308 Win and 7.62 NATO, but the differences are tiny. If your Ishapore is in good working order, you'll be fine shooting .308 Win through it.

Bud Helms
October 23, 2011, 07:50 AM
First link above has been corrected.

jonnyc
October 23, 2011, 08:06 AM
Winchester began producing 7.62 Nato ammo and called it .308 Win. Same ammunition. There is a difference in the internal case construction of most .308 and 7.62, and a military 7.62 chamber will tend to be more generous than a commercial .308 chamber. That's it.

boostedtt91
October 23, 2011, 02:23 PM
I know the 7.62 nato military case is slightly thicker than the 308 winchester brass and military loads are usually hotter loads than commercial rounds. My ishapore has a mint bore and the rest looks great so it should be in great shape to shoot it

jonnyc
October 23, 2011, 05:19 PM
Military brass is sometimes thicker in the web, but not always. And military loads are not hotter than commercial loads...just not true. For most shooters, the two labels are completely interchangeable, as they are the same round. The only time there is any real difference is for reloaders. you cannot load a hot .308 charge into a lower capacity military case.

boostedtt91
October 23, 2011, 06:00 PM
I disagree, commercial loads are usually gonna be loaded not as hot due to the wide variety of guns it could be shot through, basically a safety measure for them as this has been confirmed with some ammo manufacturers i have spoken with about this. Im not saying they are in every case, but usually is the case

AK103K
October 23, 2011, 06:21 PM
I had one of the Ishpore Jungle carbines. I think the bigger issue here is the status of the guns headspace than the .308 vs 7.62 thing. Mine was so far out that I was getting case head separations on the first reload, and in some cases, very obvious signs in the first firing of factory ammo. I would definitely get it checked out, if you havent already.

Other issues with mine were reliable extraction and ejection with the .308 cases, and feeding issues with the poorly fitted mag that came with the gun.


As far as .308 vs 7.62 thing, in 45 years or so of shooting both from the same guns, other than the Ishpore, I never had any problems, and in its case, it wasnt the ammo that was the problem anyway. If you use the appropriate loads in appropriate guns, it shouldnt be a problem.

jonnyc
October 23, 2011, 09:48 PM
"I disagree, commercial loads are usually gonna be loaded not as hot due to the wide variety of guns it could be shot through, basically a safety measure for them as this has been confirmed with some ammo manufacturers i have spoken with about this. Im not saying they are in every case, but usually is the case"

Very funny, but incorrect. In fact, just about every other internet "expert" who says that 7.62 and .308 are different, usually based upon the mythical differences in pressure, concludes that commercial .308 is hotter than military 7.62 and should never be used in milsurp rifles! Both ideas are wrong. Any pressure differences between factory 7.62 Nato and .308 labeled ammunition are the same as the differences between any two manufacturers of said ammunition.

Fawlty
August 18, 2012, 11:20 AM
I know that my knowledge of gun mechanics is probably less than most, but I have a question. Recently purchased a Ishapore 2a1, gun was clean and was told by the seller I could fire .308 winchesters. Took her down to the range and fired 56 shots with no problem, no rapid firing, cool day.

After the 56th shot, the rounds would no longer feed fully into the chamber(?), and seemed jammed or blocked. Not an issue with the magazine as I tried loading directly and the round still will only go half way into the chamber.

I did remove the bolt and tried looking down the barrel, I can't visualize any blockages or problems.

If anyone would have any idea of the next step or possible issues I can check or might have, would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance

44 AMP
August 18, 2012, 01:07 PM
I disagree, commercial loads are usually gonna be loaded not as hot...

While this is true for some calibers in US ammo (like the 8mm Mauser), it is simply NOT TRUE for the .308 Win.

GI specs for the 7.62 Nato are to deliver the same ballistics as the old GI .30-06 round, namely a 150gr bullet at 2750+/- fps.

Take a look at any commercial ballistics table and you will find the .308 listed as launching a 150gr at 28or 2900 something fps.

Not the same as the GI 7.62mm Nato loading.

Bart B.
August 18, 2012, 01:38 PM
44AMP sez:Take a look at any commercial ballistics table and you will find the .308 listed as launching a 150gr at 28or 2900 something fps.

Not the same as the GI 7.62mm Nato loading. Of course not.

7.62 NATO velocity specs are based on a 22 inch test barrel with mil spec tight tolerances. Commercial .308 Win. ammo's shot in 22, 24 and 26 inch barrels of all sorts of tolerances; which one was used for your reference?

BlueTrain
August 18, 2012, 06:08 PM
I was able to find SAAMI's specifications for ammunition but I looked all over NATO's website and couldn't find what military specifications are for ammunition or anything else is. It is probably there somewhere but I didn't find it. Is there another place to find it?

While I can't really believe anyone loads ammunitions at much less than commercial specification, except when someone says it is, just because they don't know what it might be fired in, there are some things that are reasons for caution. Not so much for loading the ammuntion lighter, at least for that reason, but for other reasons. I'm thinking here of rifles that have been rechambered. I thinking here of some Spanish rifles that were Model 92 and 93 Mausers, not the Model 98. But some of these rechambering were made over 50 years ago, so if there were serious issues from a safety standpoint, surely we would hear more about it and maybe not. The Spanish used a special, lighter loading of the 7.62 NATO and I think maybe the Japanese may, though I didn't run that down before making this post. Anyway, a lighter loading would presumably not create any safety issues with converted 7mm rifles.

There is commercial .308 ammunition that is loaded lighter and advertised as such, though I don't know the reason that sort of ammunition was produced.

There are, however, distinct military loads of 7.62 NATO but nowhere near the number of different commercial loads. Belted (meaning loaded in belts) ammunition is also not loaded the same in different countries. British ammunition has a high proportion of tracer rounds, for example, but it's entirely useable in American weapons, which is the whole point of standardization.

AK103K
August 18, 2012, 06:55 PM
I have a copy of the manual for the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant from 1969 that has the specs for all ammo being loaded there at the time.

7.62x51 lists the following.....

M59 shows a 150.5gr bullet at 2750fps 50000psi max.

M61 (AP) shows a 150.5gr bullet at 2750fps 50000psi max.

M62 (tracer) shows a 142gr bullet at 2750fps 50000psi max.

M80 (ball) shows a 149gr bullet at 2750fps 50000psi max.

M60 is shown to be a high pressure test round used to proof test barrels and weapons, loaded to 67500 +/- 2500 psi using a 174gr bullet, no velocity listed.

jmr40
August 18, 2012, 08:39 PM
It would have been better to start a new thread rather than tagging this onto a year old thread. You'll get better, more specific answers to your question.

It is my opinion that there is no problem shooting 308 and 7.62 interchangeably. I don't think this is your problem. Did you try feeding several different rounds. Sometimes one is of low quality, or it my just need a good cleaning.

Ozzieman
August 19, 2012, 05:35 PM
You can close the bolt fully without a round? Also did you retrieve all the fired brass and inspect all of them?
The face of the bolt will rotate and if it’s not screwed all the way in the bolt will not close. Do not try to tighten it. It should just turn in till it hits bottom. If it’s just one turn out it will not close.
As far as shooting 308 or 7.65 in your Ishapore as others have said as long as the head spacing is ok you’re good. One thing to understand about the Ishapore is that it was made to shoot 308. It was NOT a rebored 303. Also the steel of the receiver and bolt are harder.
I have had mine over 5 years and it’s been a very reliable rifle but before I put one round through it I had the head space checked.
The following will give you some historical info on the Ishapore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle