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KBP
October 16, 2011, 10:26 PM
Wow! Watched the TV show tonight on the Remington 700 and I cannot understand how Remington is still in business! I had read about the trigger problem on some of these rifles and according to the show, there are 50,000 of these defective rifles in the hands of the public! If you believe the information, the entire trigger assembly and safety system needs to be replaced. Remington refuses to admit there is a problem! Lots of customers have had their rifles fire without pulling the trigger.

Sweet Shooter
October 16, 2011, 10:34 PM
Twaddle. It's all politics. And actually there are a lot more unsafe guns out there with "improved" triggers that are not Remingtons.

Watch this (http://youtu.be/YjmOSAZDpfU) before you make your own mind up.

-SS-

Romeo 33 Delta
October 16, 2011, 11:52 PM
My wife and I watched this last year. We took a copy of it to our gunsmith for him to watch as well.

We are of the opinion that there's a lot of information we don't have about all of this ... but there are certainly some SERIOUS issues of INSANELY CAVALIER MISHANDLING OF FIREARMS in virtually EVERY ONE OF THESE SHOOTINGS.

NEVER been out shooting and then brought a LOADED firearm into my home.

NEVER been out shooting and then put a LOADED firearm into my trunk.

NEVER pointed a firearm at an UNINTENDED target.

NEVER put my finger into the trigger guard until ready to shoot.

I learned these rules at my father's knee when I was about 8 years old. I'm 66 now and have been around guns for most of my life. I've been a combat infantryman in my youth and an avid shooter for decades (still am).

There might be some other situations on that program I have forgotten, and I'm sorry for the injury and loss of life ... but I'm NOT convinced that the rifle is at fault. I've had used rifles that have been so badly "gunsmithed" that they would discharge when the action was closed. I know for a fact that these rifles DID NOT leave the factory in that condition. No, some shooter needed a more sensitive trigger and messed with it.

Could it be the Model #700 is potentially defective? Possible, unlikely. Could it be that someone improperly adjusted the trigger or caused some associated problems? Highly probable. Could it be that the rifle hadn't been properly cleaned for years? Highly probable. Could it be just instances of lack of proper handling and/or lack of diligence? Extremely probable. I own #700's and I have not stopped shooting them. I don't treat them as any more dangerous that any of my other rifles, commercial or military.

PS (I also spent my life around power wood working tools and can still count to 10 using ONLY my fingers and thumbs, all of which are still their original length.)

hermannr
October 17, 2011, 12:50 AM
I have a 700BDL that I purchased new back in 1964. It has an absolutely super trigger, always has, from out of the box. 2 1/2 lb pull, no creep at all, crisp clean break,,,just super, could not ask for a better trigger, and the weapon has NEVER unintentionally fired, ever, and I have shot it a lot.

Now, that said. Crisp, and no creep, and 2 1/2 lbs??? do you think it takes much to get it to fire?...no not at all....So, I would expect that if someone has problems with a 700 trigger, it's their fault, not the rifles. They just can't learn to keep the gun unloaded when it should be unloaded, and then keep their fingers out of the trigger guard.....

bacardisteve
October 17, 2011, 01:03 AM
The last gun show i was at i inspected 3 diffrent rem700 from the same vendor. He allowed me to drop test them by placing them on safe and beating the butt on the floor. One of them failed and he immediatley took it off display. This was a used rifle but looked almost unfired so i guess it could have been tamperd with.I truly belive since remington was bought out the product has declined.

Sweet Shooter
October 17, 2011, 02:07 AM
@bacardisteve I believe these cases go back to the seventies or even the sixties. They just get raked over and over. It has nothing to do with a buyout or quality control. You can't turn this issue into quality control just because you found a gun that would fire when dropped...
-SS-

bacardisteve
October 17, 2011, 02:36 AM
I didnt realize the problem went back that far. Said gun was a 700sps so it couldnt have been but a few years old.

oldandslow
October 17, 2011, 05:37 AM
KBP, 10/17/11

This supposed issue has been out for a long while and rehashed over and over in most of the firearms forums. First, of course, never believe anything you see on TV. Second, do some research on a number of forums and then make an informed decision as to whether or not this is a real issue or one manufactured for TV and lawsuits. I know that my 43 year old Rem. 700 in .270 Winchester has never had any issues in over seven hundred rounds of being dragged, dropped and water soaked over and over. As with all weapons you must practice safe handling.

best wishes- oldandslow

thallub
October 17, 2011, 06:02 AM
The woman pointed her loaded gun at her kid, the gun fired and the kid died. Now she blames Remington for her own negligence. :mad:

jmr40
October 17, 2011, 06:33 AM
The woman pointed her gun down toward the ground in the direction of a stock trailer. The gun fired when the safety was moved to the fire position without touching the trigger. ( A trait that has been know to happen with Remingtons since the 60's). The bullet hit the trailer, deflected and changed directions at least once inside the trailer before exiting and striking her son, who she thought was behind her. Once the bullet hit a metal stock trailer there is no way to predict where it will go. It could have just as easily come straight back striking her or the son if he had been behind her.

This is no hoax, no TV show with an agenda. The Remington problem is REAL. I've seen it happen and own a gun that has done it. More than once. The engineer who designed the gun discovered that it was possible shortly after the gun went into production and proposed a design change, but since it would have cost Remington $.05 more per gun they decided a nickle was worth more than a safe gun.

That said it is very, very rare. By Remingtons own estimates less than 1% of all 700's made have the potential to do it. Most of those never will and most of the time when it happens no one will be injured. That is what Remingotn is counting on. The bean counters have figured it is cheaper to pay off in a few lawsuits than correct the problem.

Remington now has no choice but to lie and coverup the problem. To recall and fix all 7,000,000 rifles in use @ around $100 each would bankrupt the company. Since changing the safety in the 1980's to allow the gun to be unloaded while the safety is still in the "SAFE" position the problem has all but gone away, but it is still possible. Remingtons redesigned trigger that came out in 2007 has finally cured the problem.

I've seen their response and read the transcript. It is a very carefully worded lawer prepared script that does not tell the truth, without outright lying.

JerryM
October 17, 2011, 07:45 AM
Although unsafe gun handling was done, it does not change the fact that the trigger was defective. I have watched the videos and in my mind there is no doubt that the triggers were defective. Even the designer said as much if I remember correctly.

Unsafe gun handling will cause deaths, but it does not excuse defective triggers.

Jerry

Darren007
October 17, 2011, 07:50 AM
The woman pointed her loaded gun at her kid, the gun fired and the kid died. Now she blames Remington for her own negligence.

She didn't know that her son was behind the trailer. If you watch it again I believe the father said that their son was at the end of the trailer in full sight (sitting on a horse i think) when they started to put their gear away. Apparently he climbed down and walked behind the trailer before anyone noticed.

But, having said that...I know we like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do think that she accidentally pulled the trigger and is either in complete denial, or just didn't realize that she did.

I have to side with Remington on this issue. When that CNBC report first aired, a whole bunch of us were talking about it at the gun shop and at the gun club. A few of these guys are professional gunsmiths by trade and all said the same thing. The only Remington 700s they've ever seen that could fire without pulling the trigger, were rifles in which the trigger had been tampered with.

natman
October 17, 2011, 08:15 AM
Let’s take a look at some of the objections:

"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."

Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.

"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."

No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.

So let's take a look at what it is:

Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed1.jpg

The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed2.jpg
For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:

“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”

Good for you. This problem doesn’t happen very often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.

Yet.

"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."

This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.

"Nobody would have been hurt if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."

True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.

Darren007
October 17, 2011, 08:36 AM
See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

Watch or re-watch the video posted in post #2 from the 10:00 to 13:00 minute marks.

hartlock
October 17, 2011, 09:43 AM
Mike Walker, the Remington engineer who designed the trigger,
said on the show, that the trigger is DEFECTIVE! Thats plenty
good enough for me!

Skans
October 17, 2011, 10:23 AM
I owned a Remington 700 22-250 from 1982 - 1986. It was probably manufactured in the late '70's. It was a very rugged, reliable, accurate and durable rifle. I can't say enough good things about it. The only reason I sold it was because it was too expensive to shoot and I had no real use, other than long range target shooting for it.

I've also own a Ruger Mark II pistol - if enough dirt accumulates on the trigger components, it will malfunction too - i.e. it will only fire intermittently when you depress the trigger, sometimes if fires sometimes it doesn't. All guns need to be cleaned, including their trigger mechanisms.

This report sounds "hinkey" to me.

Clifford L. Hughes
October 17, 2011, 10:30 AM
KBP:

I sold guns for over twenty years and I sold a lot of Remington 700s. I'm not aware of faulty triggers. However, a customer brought in two with his own trigger jobs that were so bad that slamming the bolt closed or bouncing the recoil pad on the floor would release the striker. We refused to take them on trade.

Semper Fi

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

Fullboar
October 17, 2011, 10:32 AM
I dont own a 700 that doesnt have an aftermarket trigger (IMHO first thing to change on a 700). Just a heads up to Winchester Model 70 owners that ajusting the trigger under 2lbs can also make them fire unexpectedly (pushing the safety from safe to fire and closing the bolt).

tim s
October 17, 2011, 10:50 AM
Some facts gentlemen. First CNBC is not exactly the last bastion of editorial truth, [ that chain smoking expert, for instance, never worked at the plant where 700's are made]second that Walker interview was largly edited, and third with all that history does'nt it seem odd that there's never been a plaintifs attourney able to have that replicated in a courtroom?

ligonierbill
October 17, 2011, 11:07 AM
Personal experience: My father bought an older used 700 BDL in 7 mm Mag some years ago for an elk hunt. A few years later he gave it to me, and I used it successfully, but very carefully! Because...approaching my first downed elk, I released the safety to unload. Bang! Now I wrote it off to heavy gloves (and of course the muzzle was in a safe direction), until I told the story to a guy who finished it for me. Hmmm. I became especially aware of muzzle direction, but it didn't happen again. Remington had a recall that replaced the safety to eliminate the need to release it prior to opening the bolt, which I had done at a Remington authorized gunsmith. However, on this rifle at least, if you pull the trigger with the safety on, as you might if you forgot to release it or brushed it with a glove or just about anything, the next time you release the safety it is likely to fire. I have tried this with an empty chamber. This gun is well cared for, but it is possible that the original owner fooled with the trigger. My plan is to get it to a gunsmith to replace the trigger (would not sell this to an unsuspecting shooter!). Now, I recently purchased a newer 700 VS 22-250. Before I bought it, I tried the trigger. It does not have the problem that BDL has. The Remington 700 is a good rifle, and they are not all defective, but some certainly are. If you have one or are looking at one, try the trigger against the safety, then release the safety. It should never drop the firing pin! If it does, look elsewhere, or get it to a good smith.

natman
October 17, 2011, 11:40 AM
See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

Watch or re-watch the video posted in post #2 from the 10:00 to 13:00 minute marks.

The video show testimony that no debris was found on a specific set of rifle(s) in one particular case. That doesn't disprove the debris theory, it just wasn't the cause on those particular rifle(s). In addition to debris, there are other to get the rifle to fire:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf

Yes, Remington's testing showed that only a very small percentage could be fired inadvertently. But 1% of a million rifles is 10,000 rifles, and Remington has made several million Model 700s with the trigger in question. That's 40 or 50 thousand defective rifles, which isn't a whole lot - unless one of them is yours.

Fullboar
October 17, 2011, 12:23 PM
The video show testimony that no debris was found on a specific set of rifle(s) in one particular case. That doesn't disprove the debris theory, it just wasn't the cause on those particular rifle(s). In addition to debris, there are other to get the rifle to fire:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf

Yes, Remington's testing showed that only a very small percentage could be fired inadvertently. But 1% of a million rifles is 10,000 rifles, and Remington has made several million Model 700s with the trigger in question. That's 40 or 50 thousand defective rifles, which isn't a whole lot - unless one of them is yours.

I just look at that Remington Memo and it looks like that blows the "Remington (and it's experts) could "NEVER" replicate an accidental discharge, unless the trigger had been tampered with" excuse out of the water. (but they would say that wouldnt they).

emcon5
October 17, 2011, 12:41 PM
I just look at that Remington Memo and it looks like that blows the "Remington (and it's experts) could "NEVER" replicate an accidental discharge, unless the trigger had been tampered with" excuse out of the water. (but they would say that wouldnt they).

Actually, they didn't say that. They said than of the guns that they got sued for, neither Remington, nor the plaintiff lawyers were able to replicate what the person who shot their friend/kid/wife claimed happened.

Subtle difference.

Watch the Remington video in post 2, the Ambulance-chaser expert who came up with the dirt-in-the-connector theory states he has never been able to test it, and wouldn't because it would be essentially impossible to replicate.

I have two Remington 700s, both of which I have adjusted the trigger. If you make the trigger too light, or the sear engagement too small, you can make the rifle unsafe.

This whole thing is a BS smear job by CNBC to try and get ratings. Nothing more.

codyb1991
October 17, 2011, 01:51 PM
You need to watch Remingtons response to CNBCs "under fire" report at Remington700.tv it explains everything.

pilpens
October 17, 2011, 02:37 PM
Are the X-Mark 1st and 2nd generation trigger included in this "defective trigger" design?

Slamfire
October 17, 2011, 02:38 PM
@bacardisteve I believe these cases go back to the seventies or even the sixties.

They go back even further. The same trigger mechanism was used on the Remington M721.

One Greybeard I know told me of two hardware store new M721's that discharged through the floorboard of cars when their safeties were taken off. The owners were unloading their rifles while standing beside the vehicles.

I found this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307130

Did you notice in the first thread where the guy's M721 discharged when the safety was taken off.

This thread lead me to the Remington factory recall


http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%204.htm

REMINGTON
MODEL 700,CENTER FIRE RIFLES MFG BEFORE 1982
MODEL 600, 660, 721, 722 40-X RIFLES MFG BEFORE MARCH 1982
MODEL XP-100 TARGET PISTOL MFG BEFORE FEBRUARY 1975

RECALL: Remington Arms Company, Inc. is offering a safety modification program for certain bolt-action centerfire firearms manufactured prior to 1982, including the Model 700, Model 600, 660, 721, 722, 40-X bolt-action rifles (made before March 1982) and Model XP-100 target pistols made before February 1975.

These firearms have a feature known as a bolt-lock that requires the safety to be placed in the “off” position in order to unload the gun. If you participated in this program, your firearm will be modified to eliminate the bolt-lock feature. The operation of your gun will not be otherwise affected.

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

I have read a number of threads on the M700 trigger. One thread, a poster reported a death that occurred in El Paso when an owner was unloading his M700 in the drive way of his house. It discharged in the air, but a lady, perhaps mowing the lawn, was killed when the bullet hit her.

The Remington over ride trigger and its sear blocking safety have reinforced in me a distrust of over ride triggers in general, and sear blocking safeties in particular. I believe a proper rifle safety holds the firing pin back, like a M98 or M70. The only mechanisms with military two stage triggers are military rifles, those triggers are just about impossible to jar "off", but the market likes over ride triggers and their tiny sear engagement surfaces. So that is what we have.

tahunua001
October 17, 2011, 03:04 PM
both me and my older brother grew up with 700s both in 243. I was always taught that any gun can fail and a safety does not guarantee safety so I was always taught not to engage the safety but instead carry with the bolt lifted so it is physically impossible to fire. when you are ready to fire drop the bolt and now you "safety" is off. that's how I've always used bolt guns and have never had an accidental discharge.

warbirdlover
October 17, 2011, 03:24 PM
I just bought a new 700 SPS Buckmasters .270 with the X-Mark Pro adjustable trigger. It comes at 3-1/2 lbs. (mine did) and adjusts down to 3 lbs. which is what they say it does. Mine did exactly as they said it does. Why anyone would want a lighter trigger pull on a HUNTING rifle is beyond me. I don't care how long a range you're shooting.

People tinkering with the old triggers no doubt causes 99.9% of all the Remington trigger issues IMHO.

Remington has also muddled up the trigger adjusting issue with a owner's manual saying not to adjust it or your warranty is void and then puts a video on their website or YouTube(?) showing you how to adjust the X-Mark Pro trigger. ***?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOpzbe-BzDo

??????????????? :confused:

briandg
October 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
I'm not going to argue the point of defective. My assessment of the trigger is that it is inherently safe design. I'm not really wanting to go into that. If remington did admit fault and recall, it would destroy the company. Period. Finished. There is nothing at all they can do in this situation but go out of business.

I'm really embarrassed for most of the people that I have heard these stories from. Especially one, a woman carrying an 8 mm magnum who dropped her safety while aimed at a trailer, and blew a hole through her son. This may not be a totally accurate report, but the base facts are there.

If we utilize logic from other controversial issues, let's see what we get.

The 30-30 has dropped millions of deer in the century sicne it was created. Nothing wrong with a 30 30, even though they have no safety system, just a notch on the hammer.

millions of critters have been done in by the 700. nothing wrong with it.

It has to be considered; when the bolt is put down and the safety engaged, THAT TRIGGER HAS TO BE PULLED BEFORE IT CAN FIRE WHEN THE SAFETY DISENGAGES.

Almost any firearm is vulnerable to striker/sear failure. My brother had a 1911 that he had tweaked, and it would slam fire and go full auto because his sear engagement was barely a hairs width.

I'm not going to support any sort of crusade against a firearm company because there were issues like this that can't happen unless there was some external force that caused it.

When somebody shows me a rifle that fires as the bolt is engaged, then, I'll feel a little different.

Slamfire
October 17, 2011, 06:48 PM
The 30-30 has dropped millions of deer in the century sicne it was created. Nothing wrong with a 30 30, even though they have no safety system, just a notch on the hammer.

A young man I met borrowed a 30-30 carbine. He was familiar with H&R Topper shotguns, a mechanism that has a transfer bar. You carry the Topper with the hammer down.

Going to his hunting location he had the carbine chambered with the hammer down. It was slung on his back, along with his back pack. He dropped his colored tape, leaned over to pick it up, the back pack swung over and hit the hammer. The rifle discharged next to his head, leaving powder burns and leading to a loss of hearing in that ear. If the barrel had been just a couple inches over, I would never have met the gent.

While that is an example of unfamiliarity with a firearm, there are accounts of people lowering that hammer to the half cock notch and losing control. You have to hold the trigger back to lower the hammer, lose control and it goes all the way.

If you notice, Marlin 30-30’s now have a side safety that blocks the hammer. That is a better system than a half cock.

I suppose everyone knows how the term “going off half cocked” originated?

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/half-cocked.html

thedaddycat
October 17, 2011, 06:49 PM
I took several rifles to the range Saturday, all but the M94 Winchester were old military rifles. I had with me a 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser, 7mm Chilean Mauser, M-17 Enfield, SMLE III, and a Russian SKS. ALL of these rifles (with the exception of the M94) had the bolts removed unless I was on the firing line.

The SKS had the worst trigger of them all. I've seen gate latches that were smoother. There was a noticable "first stage" that almost made a click it was so bad. After that you had to take up even more to get it to break. Truly horrible as triggers go. Will I "tinker" with it to smooth it up? No way!

Are there defective designs? Yes. Are there defective parts or part failures? Yes. Are there unsafe firearms handling practices? Yes, probably more than the other two combined. The most important safety rides around between your ears all day. While it is tragic that folks were injured or killed, had proper safety practices been followed I doubt that anyone would have had more than a bad scare...

The first three rules my dad taught me long ago:

ALWAYS treat any gun as if it were loaded.
ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
NEVER trust a safety.

jmr40
October 17, 2011, 07:54 PM
This whole thing is a BS smear job by CNBC to try and get ratings. Nothing more.



This issue has been around much longer than CNBC has existed. Rifles have been going off for 50 years. It was well documented as far back as the early 1970's. There were TV news programs reporting this back in the 70's and again in the 90's. CNBC broke no new ground and gave an accurate report of the problem.

You need to watch Remingtons response to CNBCs "under fire" report at Remington700.tv it explains everything

You need to read between the lines. Carefully crafted lawyer speak BS.

By Remingtons own records there have been over 10,000 reports to them of rifles firing with no trigger pull. Remington admits to this, but claims that they were all either because someone altered the trigger, or actually pulled the trigger and just don't remember. If you believe that many folks managed to do this with Remingtons, you have to conclude that Remington owners are the worlds dumbest gun owners. A trigger that has been modified improperly can and probably did lead to some of these, but not 10,000 times. Folks adjust the triggers on Winchesters, Rugers, Weatherby's and any other brand of gun too. No one is claiming those guns are firing on their own.



“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”



Very few of us have ever been struck by lightening, or ever seen anyone else be struck by lightning. That does not prove it doesn't happen.


When somebody shows me a rifle that fires as the bolt is engaged, then, I'll feel a little different.

I own one that has done it. The trigger has never been touched since leaving the factory. On several occasions it has dropped the firing pin when the safety was moved to the fire position. Luckily it did it when it was not loaded. I thought at first I MUST have pulled the trigger. I spent about an hour opening and closing the bolt and disengaging the safety with the gun unloaded. It repeated it 3-4 more times out of 100 or more tries. The gun has since been retired.

I'm not out to destroy Remington. Hope they do well. The issues here were started years ago and none of the folks responsible for this problem work there any more. Current management is just trying to do damage control. But to bury your heads in the sand and pretend the problem does not exist is the wrong approach. I compare it to older single action revolvers. Almost everyone knows they are dangerous to load a round under the hammer. That is because Colt, Ruger, and anyone else who ever made one went out of their way to educate people. I've known about this issue for 40 years, actually own one that will fire on its own and still own Remingtons and would buy another.

Fullboar
October 17, 2011, 09:34 PM
Actually, they didn't say that. They said than of the guns that they got sued for, neither Remington, nor the plaintiff lawyers were able to replicate what the person who shot their friend/kid/wife claimed happened.

Subtle difference.



But if you go back and watch it they say that the 700 Trigger/Saftey doesn't have a problem/defect.

With the Remington's Response, does anyone know who (what TV company) made that or was it made by Remington?

natman
October 18, 2011, 02:27 AM
Are the X-Mark 1st and 2nd generation trigger included in this "defective trigger" design?

No.

Savage32-20
October 18, 2011, 07:29 AM
Remington has also muddled up the trigger adjusting issue with a owner's manual saying not to adjust it or your warranty is void and then puts a video on their website or YouTube(?) showing you how to adjust the X-Mark Pro trigger. ***?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOpzbe-BzDo

I just recently bought a R700 with the X-mark trigger - So i've been following this thread just to see the outcome and read more information about the issue. I know the X-mark is not affected by the issues, but figured i'd chime in on this one.

My new Remington book (R700 less than 3 months old) on page 9 says that adjustment to the non-adjustable X-mark triggers will void warranty. This is understandable because this trigger system is not designed by them to be adjustable by the user. It does tell you in the book that making adjustments to the mechanism other than those defined in this book will void the warranty.

The Video shows a rifle with the X-mark pro which is designed to be adjustable by the user. It does not void your warranty to adjust this trigger, only the X-mark (non-pro). The directions for doing the X-mark pro are also listed in the book so making these adjustments should not void the warranty.

emcon5
October 18, 2011, 08:56 AM
I own one that has done it. The trigger has never been touched since leaving the factory. On several occasions it has dropped the firing pin when the safety was moved to the fire position. Luckily it did it when it was not loaded. I thought at first I MUST have pulled the trigger. I spent about an hour opening and closing the bolt and disengaging the safety with the gun unloaded. It repeated it 3-4 more times out of 100 or more tries. The gun has since been retired.

What did Remington say when you contacted them?

warbirdlover
October 18, 2011, 09:04 AM
Okay, now I get it. The X-Mark Pro (adjustable) is the latest trigger right? The one currently being put on the 700's?

jimbob86
October 18, 2011, 09:10 AM
Going to his hunting location he had the carbine chambered with the hammer down. It was slung on his back, along with his back pack. He dropped his colored tape, leaned over to pick it up, the back pack swung over and hit the hammer. The rifle discharged

Why was the gun loaded and on his back?


If it has to be so ready to go that a round is in the chamber, it needs to be in his hands, ready to go.

I hate the hammer block on the modern Marlins- Half cock does just fine...... hammer all the way down on a live round is just stupid.

Sweet Shooter
October 18, 2011, 11:41 AM
This 700 trigger topic always gets so emotional. It's almost like there's hatred toward Remington in some of the posts. Accidents happen. It's our job to make sure we are all safe, which includes everyone around us.

Remington are not the bad guys. Brand loyalty is fine but all the big brands need each other to keep our sport alive and well.

If you've had an accident or witnessed one, and want to subsequently avoid the brand in you hand at the time that's your prerogative. But be honest with yourself, could you have prevented it? If your answer is "no" then please stay at home and our fields and deserts and forests will be safer.

-SS-

GeauxTide
October 18, 2011, 12:32 PM
Amazing what we believe on TV. Have owned many 700s since the 70s. Currently own 3. Think I'll get another.

CPTMurdoc30
October 18, 2011, 12:52 PM
Really AGAIN with this.

tahunua001
October 18, 2011, 01:35 PM
this is way too emotional. ok bullet points
1. any gun can fail.
2. tv says that some of these guns have failed.
3. people have died from these failures.
4. more people die every year from cleaning a loaded gun than from mechanical failures.
5. there are millions of 700s that have not failed.
6. scream, yell, cuss, blankity blank blank and remington can go blank themselves, blank blankity dead kids blank blank blank
7. this situation will be talked about as long as a pre 80s 700 is in the hands of a hunter/owner/collector.
hope this sums it all up in a nutshell, let me know if I forgot something.

briandg
October 18, 2011, 02:51 PM
you forgot to point out that in the minds of at least 30% of the people who have held a gun in the first place, remington is just trash, and this is just proof positive that it is a useless company that makes trash products that shouldn't even be recycled after being seized, they should be buried in unhallowed ground inside the city of the damned.

people can insult my remingtons. They can also insult my dodge truck and my toyota car. They can call my s&w a ****, and my colt a dog, and so forth.

The opinions of the masses mean no more to me than the noise the old blind schauzer makes in the yard down the block.

When I hear a well thought out and reasoned statement, well, gee, I listen. It's an unfortunate fact that I don't have to listen very often.

tahunua001
October 18, 2011, 03:02 PM
I'm pretty much the sme way. I love my DPMS and model1 AR15s and despite some issues with my WASR10/63 I still like it. I started my days with a 700 and I will probably end them with that same gun

Sweet Shooter
October 18, 2011, 04:35 PM
@tahunua001
I started my days with a 700 and I will probably end them with that same gun
Sounds rather morbid. Should we talk about this?
-SS-

KMO
October 18, 2011, 08:22 PM
All I know is that I took my 700 .30 06 out this morning to sight in a new scope, and it was overlapping shots at 100 yards within 8 rounds fired. It only fired when I pulled the trigger, and the safety worked just fine. I wouldn't trade it for another rifle by any manufacturer...;)

CPTMurdoc30
October 18, 2011, 08:33 PM
My 700 is being buried with me. That is how much I love that gun.

tahunua001
October 18, 2011, 09:47 PM
Sounds rather morbid. Should we talk about this?
nope:D

raceroch
October 19, 2011, 03:17 PM
you know what they say about conspiracies right? There all true! :D:D:D:D:D:D

scwhitetail
November 27, 2011, 02:59 PM
http://www.remington700.tv/#

That is Remington response to CNBC Remington Under Fire.

BTW, the CNBC special was supposedly created by a group of anti-gun activists, who thought "taking down" Remington, one of the nations biggest gunmakers, would impact the amount of firearms sold. They would then use the same tactic to destroy the other gunmakers. Personally, I think that the the Remington trigger myth, is just that, a myth. The condition of the guns that discharged was horrible. The trigger assemblies were rusted out, and most of them had been adjusted either below factory spec, or incorrectly by honing the sear, or tampering with the sear adjustment screw. Remington specifically prohibits the adjustment of the screw. That's why it has a way bigger blob glue over the sear screw than the pull weight or backlash screws. Plus, all of the guns that misfired, were handled incorrectly.

natman
November 28, 2011, 04:52 AM
Let’s take a look at some of the objections:

"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."

Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.

"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."

No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.

So let's take a look at what it is:

Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed1.jpg

The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.

When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/nat_mann/REMINGTONtriggernamed2.jpg
For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.

With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:

“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”

Good for you. This problem doesn’t happen very often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.

Yet.

"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."

This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.

"No one would have been hurt if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."

True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.

Walklightly
December 29, 2011, 11:26 PM
October 16, 2011, 10:26 PM

KBP

Remington 700 rifle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow! Watched the TV show tonight on the Remington 700 and I cannot understand how Remington is still in business! I had read about the trigger problem on some of these rifles and according to the show, there are 50,000 of these defective rifles in the hands of the public! If you believe the information, the entire trigger assembly and safety system needs to be replaced. Remington refuses to admit there is a problem! Lots of customers have had their rifles fire without pulling the trigger.

November 26, 2010, 02:45 PM

KBP

Dangerous design flaw in rifle!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last night I watched a show that shocked me. It was about the unsafe trigger and safety on the Remmington 700! The show pointed out the fact that the rifle can fire when the safety is taken off without touching the trigger or even can discharge with the safety on. Worst than that, Remington has know about the flaw or defect in the design for decades and has ignored thousands of letters from its customers about this dangerous problem! Anyone have first hand knowledge of this problem?

What wrong with this picture?

shurshot
December 29, 2011, 11:43 PM
Are people STILL being duped by CNBC's HIGHLY subjective report on the Remington 700? :rolleyes: Remington's website (700 Network) and Youtube video series debunk the "Remington Under Fire" report, point by point. Before anyone gets too upset after watching MSNBC's "Remington Under Fire", you should watch the other half of the story, the half built on facts, not shoddy and subjective reporting. Watch Remington's point by point response on Youtube or on their website (link is below). It seperates the hard facts from emotionaly charged fiction. http://www.remington700.tv/#

Chevy, Ford, Lockheed Martin, Colt, Winchester, S&W, BMW, Toyota, and yes, even REMINGTON, all have the occassional defective products. It happens. The Remington 700 is a strong, reliable, well built gun. If the ammo ends up accidently overloaded with powder, or the case ruptures, Remington's famous 3 rings of steel can and will stop any potential injury. Most if not ALL of those defective rifles in the emotionaly charged CNBC report had their trigger systems tampered with, or were rusted and full of crud and had been altered outside of the factory. Any rifle, if abused or "tuned" (altered) by a wanna-be gunsmith, outside of factory specs, by a non-qualified individual, can be a potential safety hazard. And what about muzzle control... remember rule #1? If you accidently bump the trigger when closing the bolt (which is VERY easy to do, and very few, if ANY admit it when it happens), the muzzle should be pointed ... where???? And when it goes "BANG" when it wasn't supposed to, it appears many who bumped the trigger, instead of owning it, blame the gun. Its always easier to shift the blame to a "defective part" and lodge a lawsuit than to own it. Remember the mysterious Toyota "accelerating gas pedel"? When the facts came out, it was all BS.

And about the crap CNBC mentioned, and previously repeated in this thread by others (:rolleyes:), about rust, derbis, etc. getting lodged in that gap between the trigger and trigger connector that allows the trigger to be "tricked"? ... The CNBC "expert" (who it turns out makes a living testifying in court against lots of gun makers), said himself under oath that it would be next to impossible to duplicate and he has never seen a Remington in that condition, but he did know of individuals accidently firing the gun when they closed the bolt and touched the trigger!!!

CAT scans of alleged "defective" 700's showed, without a doubt, NO DERBIS BETWEEN THE TRIGGER AND CONNECTOR! Nothing! There are 2 sides to this story, and CNBC did their best to play on the viewers emotions by only depicting 1 side of the story and Court cases. If I ran Remington, I would strongly be considering litigation against CNBC and the reporter for slander and defamation. ;)

Let me put it this way, if that reporter was a Police detective conducting an investigation and building a criminal case, he would end up in court, on the stand, and be quickly discredited and would lose his badge and job and be open to both a civil lawsuit and prosecution. You don't present half the facts in Court and hide evidence in order to make your case. The scales of Justice swing both ways.

I have no reservations about buying a new Remington 700. I'm looking at getting a new .270, and a "Made in the USA" Remington is at the top of my list. If you consider the sheer volume of model 700's that have been produced since 1962, over 5 MILLION (!!!) and thats not counting the number of previous models (721's and 722's), I'm guessing that Remington still has a better reliability / customer satisfaction than most other gun makers out there combined.

My Grandfather's 1949 model 721 .270, after thousands of rounds and some pretty rough treatment along the way, is still going strong and taking deer with deadly accuracy and a SUPER crisp trigger... 62 years after it was bought. So yes, a newer version of Mr. Walker's rifle, a made in the USA rifle, is in my future, with no reservations or 2nd thoughts...

Again, check out the facts, the TRUTH; http://www.remington700.tv/#

Be objective and listen to both sides before you jump on the CNBC bandwagon and start posting Anti-Remington BS, or not buying one of the strongest, most accurate rifles ever made on American soil. Remington is a big target for lawyers and the media (who are for the most part, Anti-gun), who know the general public, including many gun owners (and obviously some FiringLine members), will buy their line of BS. And no, I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't work for Remington or own any stock in the Company. I just can't stand subjective and twisted, anti-gun reporting.

Sweet Shooter
December 30, 2011, 01:12 AM
@ Walklightly

What wrong with this picture?

Nice one! How on earth did you spot that?
-SS-

.300 Weatherby Mag
December 30, 2011, 01:30 AM
I have a recent production 700 that was factory equipped with a Walker trigger that did weird things... It would go off when you didn't want it too... None of my other 700s have ever done anything like this... I sent the gun to Remington and they replaced the trigger with an X-Mark and then tried to charge me for it.. I told them to shove it and they backed down and charged me nothing... I'm glad I didn't pay anything for the X-Mark they retrofitted is a horrible trigger...

I'm not saying that MSNBC is right on all counts... But there are problems with some of the triggers in these guns.. I'm not worried about the Walker triggers in my other guns but they do send out a lemon and I was lucky enough to get one.....

Walklightly
December 30, 2011, 02:47 AM
Nice one! How on earth did you spot that?
-SS-

Sometimes I see people asking easy to find out questions, or something goofy, and I check there statistice's, it took about a minute.

Almost a troll check.:D I just hate to see poeple waste others, and my time putting an effort to answer with good intent.

shurshot
December 30, 2011, 08:14 AM
Walklightly.... good work! However I don't think it is a waste of time to answer the OP's question though, as countless others who are researching the issue as they question what CNBC reported will read the thread and learn the truth. http://www.remington700.tv/#