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View Full Version : Red Jacket Firearms...and their NFA gatling gun?


tobnpr
September 7, 2011, 09:35 PM
So I'm doing my usual Wed. night viewing of the show...it's a train wreck for so many reasons, but I just can't help but watch it...but that's a whole 'nother subject...

Tonight's episode featured a 12 ga. gatling gun.
Now, I'm no expert on NFA firearms and regs...but at the end of the show, they clearly told the junkyard owner that he could take it home- as in it's HIS- for his fifteen grand...

This is an electrically operated, newly manufactured gatling gun. Gotta be NFA- and 100% illegal for that civvie to own- shouldn't BATF be knocking on that guy's door? What am I missing that would make it legal for him to own that weapon?

highvel
September 7, 2011, 09:52 PM
It would be a hoot on the Dove field though:D

egor20
September 7, 2011, 10:00 PM
It would be a hoot on the Dove field though

Please don't gvie my wife any ideas.

She still kicks my but at bird hunting :mad:

artburg
September 7, 2011, 10:03 PM
I was waiting for the mags to fly off and kill someone.
That show is so wrong in too many ways to count......

Austin Cowart
September 7, 2011, 10:14 PM
Never seen the show and probably never will but i can bet you that a company that has exploded like red jacket has wouldnt put their SOT at risk by selling illegal NFA items. Im sure the team of lawyers that they have going over every detail costs more than most of us make in a year.

Ridge_Runner_5
September 7, 2011, 10:51 PM
IIRC, gatling guns are not NFA because they still require you to manually work the action for each shot?

Bill DeShivs
September 7, 2011, 10:54 PM
Read again- ELECTRICALLY operated.

Mueller
September 7, 2011, 11:13 PM
Gatlings generally made prior to 1898 and a few made around 1900 are not subject to NFA, but hand crank models utilising center fire ammunition outside of that are subject to NFA rules.

That is the reason that the few reproductions one see's use either rim fire or some kind of special adapter that is not considered a centerfire cartridge or in one case primed and loaded barrel fed from a hopper.

Now, since I didn't see the show, I don't know what they did, but, if as I suspect they used several semi auto 12 gauges hooked to a frame work and then spun it by using an electric motor and each shotgun was fired when the trigger was pulled by a mechanism/fixed or gear operated, then it is possible that because each shotgun is still a full intact firearm and since it still require a "Separate" trigger pull each and every time to fire, that it does not fall under the NFA.

Of course this is still speculation on my part and my "Gatling" stage of life was over a long time ago and all the BATF rulings and determinations that I had on file went with the gun when my grandad sold it, so I am going strictly from memory now.

kozak6
September 7, 2011, 11:53 PM
Manually operated Gatling guns are fine.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2004-5.html
ATF and its predecessor agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), have historically held that the original, crank-operated Gatling Gun, and replicas thereof, are not automatic firearms or machineguns as defined. See Rev. Rul. 55-528, 1955-2 C.B. 482. The original Gatling Gun is a rapid-firing, hand-operated weapon. The rate of fire is regulated by the rapidity of the hand cranking movement, manually controlled by the operator. It is not a "machinegun" as that term is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) because it is not a weapon that fires automatically.

Electronically operated is different. The BATFE is flexible with trigger definitions. Look up the Stutter Gun, for example. Anyways, for something like this, the argument is that the "go" button is now the trigger, and one push of it allows for automatic fire.

Rifleman1776
September 8, 2011, 07:55 AM
I caught that also. But, really, I doubt he "took it home". In previous shows there were always stern warnings not to try what they see on TV because it could get the viewer in serious trouble with the Feds.
It is a TV show, there will be some gaffs for laughs.
I doubt RJ put their licenses in jeapordy for a couple yuks.

tobnpr
September 8, 2011, 08:47 AM
I understand about it being "TV"...
It's just that there's so much on that show that's just "wrong"- from a technical perspective, that it just bugs me... like all the things they "invent" that were around long before they were.

Pbearperry
September 8, 2011, 08:51 AM
This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.

Technosavant
September 8, 2011, 11:34 AM
In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.

Then I suggest you grow up or quit carrying a gun because you're likely to shoot somebody who isn't a threat.

However they look to you, it is not illegal to look a certain way. If you consider them to look like gangbangers, then you really need an accurate view of the current state of street gangs and to dial your prejudice down few notches.


The thread is concerning the legality of a gatling-style gun with shotgun barrels. I wonder if that might not be considered a destructive device more than a full auto... maybe that might be what makes it legal? But then, I would think that an electric drive would indeed make it a full auto. I admit I haven't seen many of the recent shows (they're piling up on the DVR).

mboylan
September 8, 2011, 02:19 PM
Has anyone considered that the client may have been another SOT2?

tobnpr
September 8, 2011, 02:42 PM
Has anyone considered that the client may have been another SOT2?

Ummm. NO.
The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.

Willie Lowman
September 8, 2011, 02:48 PM
my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.

So you reach for your gun when you see young men with tattoos? :confused:


Has any one considered that the BATFE regulates each each machinegun a little differently? Has any one of you considered that Will takes the time to explain how what he is doing is legal but that "boring legal talk" gets edited out?

A crank handle Gatling gun is a legal title 1 firearm. In some cases, something that makes a title 1 firearm fire as a machine gun, *legally* is the machine gun (think HK sears for the model 91, 93, and 94) If he were to register an electric motor that is made to be attached to a regular Gatling gun as a post sample... The motor would then be the machine gun. That way he makes his TV show and can sell the Gatling gun sans post-sample full auto motor for a nice 15 grand.

mboylan
September 8, 2011, 02:50 PM
.......

Willie Lowman
September 8, 2011, 02:51 PM
The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.

A friend of mine is a SOT2. He has a computer business. He looks like nothing but a skinny computer nerd. He also can and does make postsample machineguns.

Looks, they can be deceiving.

Jo6pak
September 8, 2011, 05:56 PM
This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.

That's the most assinine comment I've heard in quite a while. You need to get out more often, but please don't shoot me if you see me in public.:mad:

Maybe you should reconsider you're motives for carrying....

tobnpr
September 8, 2011, 06:07 PM
A crank handle Gatling gun is a legal title 1 firearm. In some cases, something that makes a title 1 firearm fire as a machine gun, *legally* is the machine gun (think HK sears for the model 91, 93, and 94) If he were to register an electric motor that is made to be attached to a regular Gatling gun as a post sample... The motor would then be the machine gun. That way he makes his TV show and can sell the Gatling gun sans post-sample full auto motor for a nice 15 grand.

I'm not following you...
Like I said, I know little about NFA regs.
I do know that it is illegal to own a MG, of any type, that was manufactured after 1986.
So, how does somehow making the motor, a MG (assuming that's what you're saying), qualify it to be a transferable NFA firearm?

I still cannot see any way that dude could own- and possess- that weapon. He took it- motor and all...

Ridge_Runner_5
September 8, 2011, 08:11 PM
The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.

If it helps, there are plenty of dealers that know little about firearms, too :p

MrDontPlay
September 8, 2011, 10:48 PM
This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
*


Then you don't need to be carrying a gun gramps. Not everyone who doesn't dress like leave it to beaver is a gangbanger.

David Hineline
September 9, 2011, 02:22 AM
Response from Will at Red Jacket when asked about this.

well yes it's a machinegun , ya'll here ought to know that . You also know all that is required to get a post sample . we follow the law closely


That pretty much means the man who took it home is properly licensed or authorized by police/govment agency to possess post sample machineguns.

Willie Lowman
September 9, 2011, 12:11 PM
Thank you for the clarification David.


tobnpr, gatling guns are title 1 arms. (Not machine guns.) If* the motor was registered as a post sample it could be used to make the (not a machine gun) gatling gun fire full auto. By removing the motor the gatling gun would once again be a title 1 firearm. It never would or could be a transferable machine gun.

*I have heard stories from old farts at the KCR shoots about registering 110 volt drill motors as post samples for the exact purpose of making a hand crank .22 gatling gun have an on/off trigger rather than a hand crank trigger. These stories could be BS. They could be true. If they were, I don't know if the BATF would let something like that slide these days.

However, if the junkyard owner bought the electric powered gatling machine gun (post-sample machine gun) , he is obviously in possession of a Federal Firearms License of some kind.

tobnpr
September 9, 2011, 12:23 PM
Thanks. We eventually got to the answer...
Obviously, selling junked cars/parts isn't the guy's primary business...

It would be beneficial, to the extent of furthering the general knowledge of the public on such issues, to indicate so as part of the program.

There was a similar episode where they put together a few MG 42's...they made it clear there that the guy putting up the money couldn't own, or possess it.
Why in the world anyone would spend that kind of dough (even air-freighted the kits) to have RJ build a weapon system he couldn't even own is another issue....

Guess we can call it case closed. Thanks for getting the answer.

Mueller
September 9, 2011, 01:44 PM
It's possible the guy was prototyping a weapon system, but couldn't put thought on paper to reality in a working model, just imagine the utility of such a device in keeping pest birds from damaging crops or firing some form of OC Capsium round as a perimeter security device, some of the greatest weapons and weapon systems started out with a strange idea and many evolutions before the finished product made the market.

As far as the MG42's, maybe a friend or family member was the eventual end recipient, who knows since I imagine a lot of those type of details get edited so one can see more 'Bang" and less Government red tape and regulation, kind of the case in point in this thread, with the lack of information on the post sample MG.

Lincoln_Arms
September 9, 2011, 02:02 PM
Junk Yard guy or not, he would almost have to be a Class 2 manufacturer to take posession of that thing. The ATF would probably never approve a Form 3 for a Class 3 dealer to use as a dealer sample. It's hard enough to get demo letters approved for Department Demos for duty weapons. But who knows, I guess anything is possible.

robhof
September 9, 2011, 02:19 PM
You guys totally overlooked the other story, a young lady bringing in a .50 Desert Eagle for help with recoil and they build her a shoulder stock!!!! that becomes a SBR and also requires the necessary stamp and transfer...:eek::eek::confused:

Lincoln_Arms
September 9, 2011, 02:31 PM
I think we're losing sight that it's a t.v show. LOL

9mm
September 22, 2011, 07:21 PM
I notice that too, the guy was like you can have it for $15k. I WAS LIKE WHAT? that was made after 1986.... :mad:

Nickel Plated
September 22, 2011, 09:52 PM
It's a shame, some of the stuff they made in the first season seemed pretty practical, like the silenced AK and precision AK and a few other ones I can't think of now. But now they are going way out there and making guns that noone will buy and "solving" problems in the most convoluted, backasswards way possible. This shows already going downhill. Shame, it started out good.

9mm
September 22, 2011, 09:58 PM
They need to work on NFA stuff that citizens can buy, not post 86 samples.... We cannot buy that, or $125,000 cannons.

oldkim
September 22, 2011, 10:19 PM
Man it's a TV show... We wouldn't watch if all you saw was the "average" trigger job on a 1911... Over and over again...

Okay let me rephrase that... 98% of us wouldn't watch that...

But if they made a 12 gauge Gatling type gun... I guess we would.


Young Kim
Sent from my iPod touch.

chasep255
September 22, 2011, 10:30 PM
Don't forget that we are all gun people here so we obviously have different views that that of the other 90% of the audience.

Auto426
September 25, 2011, 11:33 PM
It's a Discovery Channel TV show, and Discovery is famous for over-dramatizing daily activities and jobs. As was said earlier, how many people would stay tuned to the show if all they ever did was convert and modify Saiga's and AR's.

The same goes for Orange County Choppers. Who would watch the show if all they did was build their production bikes, and not the un-rideable rolling advertisements they are now famous for. Or how about Pawn Stars? It's "reality TV", and there's nothing real about it.

csmsss
September 26, 2011, 10:57 AM
I watch the show simply for the comedy. Like the owner putting his scary daughter into a skimpy dress at a gun show then telling one of his knucklehead employees he couldn't "fraternize" with her. The most comedic part of that is that the daughter is...well...let's just say she will never be a supermodel. Then there's the absurdity of a custom-milled shoulder stock for a Desert Eagle. Did the thought never occur to them to just tell her to buy a cheap carbine chambered in whatever that DE was chambered in? How much did that shoulder stock cost plus all the taxes the customer would have had to pay? Absurd. But as comedy, highly amusing.

Oh, and for the OP, it's probably not the guys with their hides covered with artistically done, multicolored tattoos obviously done in a parlor costing many thousands of dollars you should be worrying about. It's the guys with crappy black prison tats should be of most concern to you.

Eghad
September 26, 2011, 08:55 PM
lol.. Its a great show. TV is for entertainment! Will is a big boy and knows what and what he can not do.

I like the show because I know every time it airs some gun contol person is out there beating his head against the wall.

I have watched the folks folks here second guess the show over several times and crash and burn after Will explains it.

If you watched the show about the Desert Eagle they told the lady that she had to wait until the papers came back. If the lady has the money to buy a shoulder stock for her DE then whats the problem as long as it doesn't become a safety issue?

In the capitalist system you make money by meeting demand.

9mm
September 27, 2011, 01:18 AM
Oh I remember that, the DE with stock, wasn't RJF engraved in it? The funny part is she probably won't shoot it that much... .50AE is so much.

then telling one of his knucklehead employees he couldn't "fraternize" with her.

Kris is crazy, so hyper around firearms. It's like everytime I turn around when hes on camera hes like "I LOVE MY JOB, I GET TO BLOW STUFF UP"

meatgrinder42
September 28, 2011, 12:55 PM
I heard about this thing from a buddy who watches the show. I immediately Youtubed it and my jaw dropped to the floor. I have this thing against firearms I think are absolutely ridiculous to give to the public, this is now number one on the list. Trailed by the 20mm Vulcan rifle. I don't understand how it was legal to build or how someone didn't die from it but...they must have a real good system of lawyers... And I mean REAL good.

csmsss
September 28, 2011, 10:23 PM
"Vulcan" rifle? Are you referring to the Lahti rifle they welded up and reassembled? Those are actually somewhat common - there are a number of videos on Youtube of individuals firing these things.

Eghad
September 29, 2011, 01:22 AM
There are a number of individuals who own a Lahti. Why should they not be available to the public? I would like to own one. 99.999999999999999999999 percent of citizens who own firearms are law abiding. I don't see massive amounts of articles on NFA firearm owners going crazy and shooting up the place.

meatgrinder42
September 29, 2011, 04:50 PM
No not the Lahti specifically (which is more understandable to me because it's a collectors item). The 'Vulcan' rifle gets it's name because it fires a 20mm round which is shared with the Vulcan gattling cannon. I see no reason why someone needs a 20mm rifle. I'm not going to go to Washington about it, it's just one of my opinions that the 20mm rifle has no real business in the civilian market.

Blindmike
September 12, 2012, 12:50 AM
If Red Jacket can do it I guess I can string some cheap AK's together and make my own Gatling Gun until ATF says its a no-no:mad:. Wow, open market for multi-barrel weapons COOL!:cool: