PDA

View Full Version : gew 88 reloading


8mm
July 7, 2011, 04:08 PM
im going to be getting a gew 88 in a cuple of days and i dont know where i can find dies for a good price its a J bore and does enyone know what kind of powder i should use can i use modern powder from 8 mm mauser and how much powder. eny help will be great.

James K
July 7, 2011, 09:55 PM
To avoid possible problems, you should indeed use bullets of .318" diameter, and those are not easy to find. IF the rifle is marked with an "S" on the receiver ring and/or has been converted to use chargers (stripper clips), it should be OK to fire .323" bullets, but stick to the lightest book loads.

I get the feeling that you are inexperienced in reloading. If so, please get hold of a good reloading manual and read it carefully before beginning. Done properly, reloading is very safe; not only can it save money, it allows more shooting for a given cost, and it is an interesting hobby in itself. But done wrong, there is danger, both to the rifle and the shooter, and possibly to others in the vicinity.

Jim

8mm
July 7, 2011, 10:50 PM
is it ok to use the modern 8mm brass to in (j) bored gun.

tater134
July 7, 2011, 11:01 PM
IF the rifle is marked with an "S" on the receiver ring and/or has been converted to use chargers (stripper clips), it should be OK to fire .323" bullets, but stick to the lightest book loads.


The S stamp is not a foolproof way to determine the bore size because many South American 88's have the S stamp on the receiver but have been rebarreled with Czech .318 diameter barrels.Ive owned 5 Ecuadorian import 88's and all had the S mark but every one of them had a .318 barrel. The only way to know for sure is to slug the bore.

8mm
July 7, 2011, 11:47 PM
i looked in the only book that i have to reload rounds its not in there does enyone know what book has this caliber in .318

adrians
July 8, 2011, 06:45 AM
i reduse the 8x57js down by 10% to load cast in my gew88(no"s") and my kar88.
or use krag 30-40 load data,,start at the begining and work up always.
i also use some norma .318---218 grn rn.
a good cast bullet is the 323470 -165grn and the 323471-215grn, sized down to .320,,,, and the load" 16grn ---2400.
good luck as jim said, baby steps if your new to this hobby/obsession.
be safe.;)

mapsjanhere
July 8, 2011, 07:21 AM
Midway (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=530261) carries .318 jacketed bullets.

8mm
July 8, 2011, 12:13 PM
i found some dies on buffalo arms but i cant find a swaging tool i have alot of 8mm bullet tips does enyone know where to find one so i dont have to buy tips for the rounds.

James K
July 8, 2011, 01:40 PM
First, when a rifle cartridge is fired, one of the first things that happens is that the pressure forces the thin wall at the front of the case outward, leaving the bullet floating in gas, held by its own inertia. (Meanwhile, fast moving gas goes around it, causing throat erosion, but that is a different subject.) Keep that point in mind.

Now when the 88 was adopted, it had a bore diameter of .311" (our measurements) and a groove diameter of .318". The Germans found that the groove depth was not deep enough (to put it another way, the lands weren't high enough) to stabilize the bullet once some wear and erosion had taken place. So in 1905 they decided to go to deeper grooves with a .323" diameter. The bore diameter remained at .311". All the new (Model 1898) rifles were recalled and rebarrelled. But what about the millions of rifles made for the smaller diameter bullet? Could they be converted without the cost of new barrels? Let's see.

The problem with the Gew. 88 and other guns chambered for the 8x57J in firing the JS round is not in the groove diameter. .323" bullets can be fired through a .318" barrel all day with only a small increase in pressure, not enough to cause a problem.

The trouble is in the chamber neck diameter. When you load a round with a larger bullet, the case neck is larger (duh!). The chamber neck in the 8x57J is too tight for the case neck of the 8x57JS. The round can be chambered (barely) but there is no room for the larger chamber neck to expand (see above). And that is what really raises pressures.

When the Germans converted those 88's to the new pointed bullet round, they did not rebore or re-rifle the barrels. They had been increasing the groove depth slightly over the years, anyway, and they used the newest barrels. But they mainly just ran a new reamer into the chamber, expanding the chamber neck and throat. That was enough to allow safe use of the new cartridge in the old barrels.

Jim

8mm
July 8, 2011, 02:36 PM
is there a stamp on the gun that can tell me if its been bored out to fit the js cartridge.

JiminTexas
July 8, 2011, 03:31 PM
No one has as of yet addressed another reloading problem that you will probably run up against. What are you going to prime these babies with? The cheap ammo out there is all froim Europe and use Berdan primers. The only place that I know of that sells Berdan primers, and they appear to be out of them at the moment is here: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3986?
Berdans can be inserted using just about any priming tool that you have now, but getting the old primer out is the problem. I believe that Midway sells a deprimer, but the are prett much high dollar. There are several places on the internet that have directions for making a deprimer aout of two pieces of wood and an old rat tailed file. Just google them. Starline sells Boxer primed brass but again it isn't real cheap. Good luck, and have fun!

JiminTexas
July 8, 2011, 03:35 PM
8MM - are you planning on casting your own bullets? I ask because you said you were looking for a swagging die. Check out Lee. Google them at Lee precision. Casting your own is about the only reason that comes to mind that you would need a swagging die for.

8mm
July 8, 2011, 03:41 PM
i looked at the pics and on the reciever in the middle there is a (s) is that the stamp that tells me its been reboard to fit the new brass and it has stripper clip cut outs.

adrians
July 9, 2011, 09:40 AM
8mm, have you googled ,,,, "THE LOAD" by E,HARRIS.?
Lots of good info on 30 cal loads (i know, i know,this is a 32.) but good info and it can be used for low pressure shooting in your gew 88 (spitzer{s} ) stamped.:)

tater134
July 9, 2011, 02:03 PM
i looked at the pics and on the reciever in the middle there is a (s) is that the stamp that tells me its been reboard to fit the new brass and it has stripper clip cut outs.

If it has clip guides it received the 1905 modifications and IS NOT a .318 bore. Bore size should be .321-.323. Does your rifle have and Turkish markings on it?

8mm
July 9, 2011, 03:26 PM
it has a half moon opening towards the sight. above the (s) is that the marking.

tater134
July 9, 2011, 03:50 PM
You have a Gew88 that was sent to the Ottoman Empire by the Germans as aid during WWI. It is not going to have a .318 barrel. As I stated in my earlier post this rifle should have a bore size of .321 or .323. Any US made commercial 8x57 ammo should be safe to fire in your rifle. I would avoid using any 8x57 surplus as it can be loaded hot and the Gew88 does not have good gas venting capabilities if you have a split case. Does your rifle still have the barrel jacket around the barrel?

8mm
July 9, 2011, 03:58 PM
what is a barel jacket i dont know much about this gun never hear of that term before.

OldMarksman
July 9, 2011, 04:03 PM
...is a very interesting read. It's all new to me.

How does the history of the spitzer bullet fit in?

tater134
July 9, 2011, 04:13 PM
what is a barel jacket i dont know much about this gun never hear of that term before.

The Gew88 in its original form had a metal jacket fitted around the barrel that screws onto the receiver. Does your rifle look like the top two rifles in this photo or the one on the bottom? The first two rifles still have the barrel jacket and the bottom one was upgraded by the Turks in the 1930's by fitting a new stock and mauser barrel to the old action.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/tater134/gew88s/gew88s.jpg

8mm
July 9, 2011, 04:43 PM
it looks like the top 2 in pic.

tater134
July 9, 2011, 06:10 PM
it looks like the top 2 in pic.

What you have is a Gew 88/05 that was sent to Turkey and was not reworked during the 1930's. Your rifle should have stripper clip guides and the opening at the bottom of the magazine should have a sheet metal cover over it. The Gew 88 originally used a 5 round en bloc clip but most were later converted to use mauser stripper clips.

My Turkish 88 is extremely accurate with my handloads and Remington corelokt ammunition. If you still want to handload any of the starting loads for 8x57 should be fine. My 88's and long barreled mausers seem to really like the .323 170gr Hornady RN bullets.

James K
July 9, 2011, 07:52 PM
Hi, Tater,

Please do not use the term "bore" if you don't know what it means. Go back a bit and read what I wrote. That 88 barrel was not and is not a .318" or a .323" bore. The bore diameter for both the J and JS bullet is .311", so they didn't need to "rebore" anything. Nor did they deepen the grooves; they did just what I said they did, reamed out the chamber neck and throat.

The Germans didn't convert those rifles for the Turks. They intended the converted rifles for issue to their own forces, and they did issue them to reserve units in WWI. When Turkey became an ally, those rifles were sent for the simple reasons that they were available in quantity and were obsolescent, yet would take the current ammo.

Some one once wrote that there was an ammunition problem created in the German army and that "thousands" of the old rifles blew up. That is nonsense; the ammunition "problem" never existed since the old ammo was issued in en-bloc clips and the new ammo in Gew.98 clips. The old clips can't be used in the converted rifles or the new clips used in the unconverted ones.

Hi, 8mm,

Some of the early repeating rifles, including the Gew. 88 and the Danish 1889 Krag, have a tubular steel cover over the barrel, threaded onto either the receiver (Gew. 88) or the barrel (Krag). The cover, called a barrel jacket, is intended to allow the rifle to be fired extensively without the barrel burning the hands of the shooter. It was an expensive proposition and rifle designers later found a simple wooden handguard to be adequate for the purpose.

Jim

adrians
July 9, 2011, 08:24 PM
as tater134 said if the bottom of the magazine has a plate riveted on it has been "converted" to use stripper clips my 88 is still in it,s original form it slugs at.319 and the magazine is still open for en-bloc clip use,, see pics(not very good pics but it shows what tater is talking about).
the other pics are big brother with little brother(kar88).
have a great weekend.:)

tater134
July 9, 2011, 11:20 PM
Hi, Tater,

Please do not use the term "bore" if you don't know what it means. Go back a bit and read what I wrote. That 88 barrel was not and is not a .318" or a .323" bore. The bore diameter for both the J and JS bullet is .311", so they didn't need to "rebore" anything. Nor did they deepen the grooves; they did just what I said they did, reamed out the chamber neck and throat.

The Germans didn't convert those rifles for the Turks. They intended the converted rifles for issue to their own forces, and they did issue them to reserve units in WWI. When Turkey became an ally, those rifles were sent for the simple reasons that they were available in quantity and were obsolescent, yet would take the current ammo.


Sorry about that Jim I should have made that more clear in my post. You are correct in stating that the bore diameter is .311 as a measurement of the lands in the rifling but in my post I was referring to the groove depth being .321 or .323. Are you saying that by using the term "bore" that only refers to the distance between the lands? I was always under the impression that it referred to the distance between grooves.

I never meant to imply that the Turks were the ones who did the 05 conversion to the Gew 88's or that the Germans did the conversion for their Turkish allies. The Turks received Gew 88's from Germany during 1916-17 after they had already been converted for German army use. The Turks were the ones who did a total rebuild of the Gew 88 by attaching new barrels and stocks to bring them up to the 1935 (or 1938/M38) standard as the Mauser rifles they had in service. By bringing up the Turkish conversion in my post I was trying to determine which type of Gew 88 the OP had (88/05 or 88/05/35) since not all Gew 88's in use by the Turks went through the 30's rebuild program.

8mm
July 9, 2011, 11:52 PM
i got mil surplus ammo when i bidded on the gun i was thinking can i take the charge and reduce it down 25% would it be ok to shoot them after that. this gun takes smokeless i gather.

8mm
July 9, 2011, 11:59 PM
i got ammo when i bidded on the gun (mil surplus) i was wondering if i take 25% of the powder charge will i be able to shoot the modern 8 mm mauser rounds out of it. i gather it takes smokeless powder.

Maxem0815
July 10, 2011, 04:33 AM
Here is a very simple answer to your surplus ammo question. NO! depending on the type of ammo it could be a 323 bullet. If it is 318 I would not use it because it could be WWI and stored improperly the brass could be brittle and split or come apart leaving you with a stuck case. If you are truly interested in shooting this gun ( I would not and I have 5) Priv-Partisan makes 318 ammo for the J bore. I think Ammoman.com has it

Mace
Happiness is a belt fed weapon and lots of ammo

Jim Watson
July 10, 2011, 09:28 AM
Are you saying that by using the term "bore" that only refers to the distance between the lands? I was always under the impression that it referred to the distance between grooves.

That is indeed what he is saying. Bore diameter is land-to-land. The distance from groove-to-groove is, strangely enough, groove diameter.
I think it is a pity the Internet Generation does not make a distinction between bore and groove measurements like it does between clips and magazines.

I don't know enough to help the OP much. Worse, a lot of what I have read and heard is contradictory. If you handed me an 1888 to shoot, I would do some measuring and study.

8mm
July 10, 2011, 12:58 PM
what if the gun was bored to fit .323rounds the others are telling me i could go to a gun shop and get comercial 8 mm mauser and shoot it out of the gun.
all 8 mm at gun shop i seen is .323 diameter bullets.
the ammo is not from ww1. from 70-80's

adrians
July 10, 2011, 01:21 PM
if you pull a rem coreloct bullet and measure it you will find it is around .321.5 maybe a hair larger but not much ,it,s not the bullet size you have to watch it's the pressure that cartridge may generate ,,,38,000psi is max for me in my gews. (i don't even go to that come to think of it):)

8mm
July 10, 2011, 01:32 PM
so i want to use the mil surplus 125 rounds of it how much of a percent should i take out at least 30% charge. the reloading book says not to exceed 40.000 cup i should be safe right.

James K
July 10, 2011, 08:29 PM
I am about to give up on this one, 8mm, as I don't really think anything I have been saying is getting through. But I will add one more note, and try to make it plain. DO NOT TRY TO RELOAD MILSURP AMMO BY PULLING THE BULLETS AND DUMPING PART OF THE POWDER CHARGE. That is potentially a dangerous practice since you have no idea of how a partial charge of an unknown powder will act.

Since you don't know the difference between bore and groove, and talk about "bullet tips", I once again ask that you please buy and read a reloading manual before doing anything in that area.

Bye, now.

Jim

8mm
July 10, 2011, 09:02 PM
ok i get what you are saying it could be hot powder ill put diffrent powder the reloding books are to us standerds like the ammo on the shelf you can buy for it right. im goint to load the rounds to the lightest loads i can find in the book.

adrians
July 11, 2011, 06:14 AM
I am about to give up on this one, 8mm, as I don't really think anything I have been saying is getting through. But I will add one more note, and try to make it plain. DO NOT TRY TO RELOAD MILSURP AMMO BY PULLING THE BULLETS AND DUMPING PART OF THE POWDER CHARGE. That is potentially a dangerous practice since you have no idea of how a partial charge of an unknown powder will act.

Since you don't know the difference between bore and groove, and talk about "bullet tips", I once again ask that you please buy and read a reloading manual before doing anything in that area.

Bye, now.

Jim

i,m with you jim.:(