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TheBluesMan
January 21, 2000, 10:10 AM
I have a family member that bought a small collection of guns from the proverbial "little old widow lady" and the 03-A3 was one of them. None of the guns are in all that great a condition, but I believe that they are quite old. There is also a S&W .38 Special CTG with a really nice custom right handed grip, and a Savage 775(?) 12 ga. with some hunting dogs engraved on the receiver.

Is the 1903-A3 also known as a Springfield rifle? Where can I get a manual or which book should I buy on this gun? I think it is a .30 cal, but don't know for sure.

The 1911 (I don't believe it is a 1911-A1) was apparently "customized" by the former owner for competition shooting. It has a rear sight with the word "Micro" in script lettering on the side. The front and back of the grip was "textured" and looks like a bastard tooth file. It has Remington UMC in a circle on the left side of the slide and "U.S. Governement Property" (or something like that) on the left side of the frame with a number under it.

Same question for the 1911 as the 03-A3, manual, books, etc.

I am also interested in any type of value estimation for all of these.

Thanks.


------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website (http://www.ofcc.net)

Harley Nolden
January 21, 2000, 10:51 AM
THEBLUESMAN:
If the .45 UMC has a rounded main spring housing, a curved cut, on the reciever, where the trigger finger goes, and a long grip safety tang, this is the A-1. With yours being marked Remington UMC is was mfg'd 1918 and 1919, with 21,676 made. The micro sight is an after market, and from the description of the .38 the owner was a National Match Pistol shooter.

The Value on the UMC Remington is:
EXC=$3,500.00 POOR=$400.00

The Savage 775 was mfg'd from 1950-1966
EXC=$275.00 POOR=$75.00

The 1903 Springfield is 30 cal. and is also known as the Springfield Rifle.
Value: EXC=$400.00 POOR=$100.00

Springfield 1903 rifle

M 1903 Specifications:
Mfg: National Armory Springfield
Introduced: 1903
Ctge modified: 1906
BARREL: Inches
Bore: 0.30"
Ext. Muzzle Dia: 0.619"
Ext. Breech Dia: 1.14"
Chamber & Bore Length: 23.79"
Bbl. Length: 24.006"
Bullet Travel Bore: 21.697"
Chamber Dia. Rear: 0.4716"
Front: 0.442
Dia: Chmbr neck Front: 0.3405"
Rear: 0.3425"
Chamber Length: 1.793"
Chamber Shoulder: 0.16:
Neck of Chamber: 0.396"
Total Chamber Length: 2,3716"

RIFLING:
Grooves: 4
Twist: Right
Rate: 10.00"
Groove Width: 0.1767
Land Width: 0.0589"
Groove Depth: 0.0004"
Height Fnt Sight
Fm Bore Axis: 1.05"
Sight Radius: 22.1254"

STOCK:

Length: 40.166"
Dist. bore axis to butt: 2.089"
Length of Pull: 12.74
Length of complete Weapon: 43.212"
Sngl Div. on Wind scale: 0.0267"


WEIGHTS:

Bbl: 2.79#
W/rear site base,
and fnt site: 3#
Butt Plate: 0.26#
Receiver: 0.98#
Bolt: 1#
Mag. 4 T-Guard: 0.44#
Mag. & Flr. plate: 0.17#
Bayonet: 1#
Stock: 1.58#
Hand Guard: 0.13#
Fnt,Rear bands & swivels: 0.25#
Rear Sight (No base) 0.20
Total Metal Parts: 7.30#
Oiler & thong Case: 1.19#
Total Wt w/Bayonet 9.69#
w/o Bayonet: 8.69#
Trigger Pull: 16-18#

Other Springfield Models:

U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30 M1903A1:

In December of 1929 the stock design was changed from the straight stock to a pistol grip stock. The fore-end was also modified by removing the finger grooves. The buttplate was checkered to give better support on the shoulder, and the trigger was modified with serrations to prevent slipping of the trigger finger.

U.S. Rifle Caliber .30 M1903A2:
The design of this rifle was not for firing from the shoulder but rather modified to attach to the cannon tube of a tank to be used for sub-caliber practice.

M 1903 Specifications:
Introduced: 1903
Replaced by Garand 1936
BARREL: Inches

Bore: 0.30"
Ext. Muzzle Dia: 0.619"
Ext. Breech Dia: 1.14"
Chamber & Bore Length: 23.79"
Bbl. Length: 24.006"
Bullet Travel Bore: 21.697"
Chamber Dia. Rear: 0.4716"
Front: 0.442
Dia: Chmbr neck Front: 0.3405"
Rear: 0.3425"
Chamber Length: 1.793"
Chamber Shoulder: 0.16:
Neck of Chamber: 0.396"
Total Chamber Length: 2,3716"

RIFLING:

Grooves: 4
Twist: Right
Rate: 10.00"
Groove Width: 0.1767
Land Width: 0.0589"
Groove Depth: 0.0004"
Height Fnt Sight Fm Bore Axis: 1.05"
Sight Radius: 22.1254"

STOCK:

Length: 40.166"
Dist. bore axis to butt: 2.089"
Length of Pull: 12.74
Length of complete Weapon: 43.212"
Sngl Div. on Wind scale: 0.0267"

WEIGHTS:

Bbl: 2.79#
W/rear site base,
and fnt site: 3#
Butt Plate: 0.26#
Receiver: 0.98#
Bolt: 1#
Mag. $ T-Guard: 0.44#
Mag. & Flr. plate: 0.17#
Bayonet: 1#
Stock: 1.58#
Hand Guard: 0.13#
Fnt,Rear bands & swivels: 0.25#
Rear Sight (No base) 0.20
Total Metal Parts: 7.30#
Oiler & thong Case: .19#
Total Wt w/Bayonet 9.69#
w/o Bayonet: 8.69#
Trigger Pull: 16-18#


Model 1901
Experimental Infantry Rifle
Mfg: National Armory Springfield Mass
Year of Mfg: 1901
Quantity: 100
Caliber: .30 Rimless
Action: Turnbolt
Length: 49.25"
Weight: 9.47lb
Barrel Length: 30"
Groove: 4 RH concentric
Magazine: Box 5 rind
M-Velocity: 2,300fps

The bolt mechanism of this rifle was unique to the USA, though many war-surplus rifles were used elsewhere after 1945 and others were supplied through Military Aid programs into the 1960's.

Experience in the Spanish American War showed that Spanish Mausers were superior to the Krag Jorgenson. Convening a board of officers at Springfield, testing began on the 1901rifle. Using the best attributes of the Mauser and the Jorgensen the 1901 experimental rifle was developed.

For reasons which seemed right at the time, the US Army had adopted the Krag-Jorgenson rifle in 1892, but within a very short period the Krag's limitations were known and the Ordnance Dept. had to begin looking into a replacement. After thinking what designs available at the time, together with some painful lessons from the Spanish-American war where the 7mm Mausers. The Ordnance Dept. decided that the Mauser system had the most to offer and entered into agreements with Mauser to build a modified Mauser rifle under license in the USA.

In its original design, the rifle was built around a blunt nosed bullet rimmed, known as the .30" M1900, based upon the Krag-Jorgenson rifle cartridge. This bullet was disposed of in a
short time when it became obvious that the Mauser magazine did not respond well to rimmed cartridges, and the rimless .30" M1903 still using a Krag bullet. After more trials the case was
lengthened from 60 to 63mm and a new blunt bullet was developed, the result being the .30" M1903 round and this became the first service issue cartridge. However Germany developed the pointed or "spitzer bullet and the M1903 round was rapidly converted, by developing a suitable pointed bullet, into the .230 M1906.

This cartridge and the millions of rifles chambered for it came to be called the .30-06. This new cartridge was developed, some 150,000 M1903 rifles had been issued and all were called back and re-chambered for the new round.

45 COLT ACP:
Introduced: 1905
Adapted Military: 1911
Other Names: Colt 45
45 Ball
1911 Ball
45Service
Dimensional Data:
Bullet: .452
Neck: .476
Base: .476
Rim: .476
Case length: 0.898
Ctge Length: 1.17
Twist: 16
Factory Ballistics:
Bullet: MV: ME:
230gr 855 405
230 Metal piercing 945 456
185 Target 755 245
185 JHP 1000 411

Developed by John browning in 1905 and adopted by the U.S. Ordnance Dept. with the Colt Browning automatic pistol, it has also been made the official military handgun caliber by
several other governments, notably Argentina, Mexico and Norway. The 45 Automatic is the most powerful military handgun cartridge in use today. It is also one of the most difficult to master. The colt Government Model auto pistol and the Colt and Smith & Wesson Army model 1917 Model revolver are the principal arms chambered for the 45 ACP in the U.S. Several submachine guns have used it, and about 1943 a number Reising semi-automatic rifles were marketed in this caliber. Imitations of the Colt auto pistol have been made in Argentina, China, Korea, Norway and Spain. It was replaced in 1985 by the Beretta 9mm.

I also have the assem/disassem instructions on the .45 and the -03 if you would like to have them.

HJN



[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited January 21, 2000).]

TheBluesMan
January 21, 2000, 11:05 AM
Harley,

I am overwhelmed. You are the BEST!

It will take me a while to get this information to my step-dad, so I will be in touch next week sometime. Thanks for the offer of the assemb/disassemb instructions for these. I'll let you know.

I am indebted to you for all of this great information. Thanks a ton.


------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website (http://www.ofcc.net)

TheBluesMan
February 5, 2000, 12:18 AM
Harley,



If I may add to the above question concerning the 1911. On the left side of the frame of the gun are the words:

United States Property

No.541902



I assume that this is the serial number, but this doesn't fit with the description above. I wonder if this isn't a true 1911?



Here is a complete listing of the markings on the gun.



Left side of slide, centered in circle:

Remington UMC.



To the left of the circle:

Patented Dec 19, 1905

Feb 14, 1911 Aug 19, 1913

Colts PT.F.A. MFG. CO



To the right of the circle:

Manufactured by

Remington Arms UMC Co. Inc.

Bridgeport, Conn. USA



On the right side of the slide:

Model of 1911

US Army Caliber 45



Any further clues?



Thanks.

-Dave

------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website (http://www.ofcc.net)

Harley Nolden
February 5, 2000, 05:24 AM
According to my records the number you have provided is a serial number issued to USN contract in 1912. As previously mentioned, the cut out at the rear of the trigger guard will tell you if it is a true 1911. 1911A1's had the cut out, both sides of the receiver, but the 1911 did not.

I am going to send you a photo of a 1911A1, see if you can determine from it if yours is the 1911 or the 1911A!

HJN