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Hook686
June 10, 2011, 05:10 PM
I am a disabled old man. The article about the Blood Thirsty Pack of Dogs located in NE Washington showed concern for children (it's for the children ... right ?).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/09/washington-dog-pack-kills_n_874477.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl6%7Csec3_lnk3%7C69858

Acually on reading the article I was concerned first for myself. I know dog owners and dog lovers decry that their mutts are harmless and some professing wisdom when it comes to dogs, speaking on how to recognize a dog as not a threat and how to deal with them by 'Standing tall' and speaking firmly.

I'm not all that convinced and am very concerned that with the speed of dogs I do not have much time to evaluate a course of action, and I better come up with a good one on the first try.

Reading this article I concluded with 5, or more dogs out for blood, unless I start shooting at 50 yards I'm dead meat, and my J-Frame will not cut it. I would like to hear some ideas, thoughts and maybe experiences if you live in a community where similar threat by a dog pack, or other serious animals was involved. I would like the responses to consider the older, less able body citizen ... young bucks seem to possess super powers I don't.

Hiker 1
June 10, 2011, 05:24 PM
A canister of bear-spray might be a good thing to have handy. Hits animals' sinuses hard.

Nitesites
June 10, 2011, 05:27 PM
Pepperspray could modify a pack's aggressive behavior. Bear spray may be a better alternative, although I've never even seen any or experienced the stuff for myself.

Edit : lol Hiker beat me to it!

Wyosmith
June 10, 2011, 05:29 PM
By far, the best weapon you could have for such action is a good hi capacity 12 gauge shotgun with an improved cylinder or modified choke, loaded with large lead Turkey shot.
However, if a long arm is not available, I would say a good auto pistol in 40 cal or larger would be a good pick. The 357 41 44 and 45 revolvers are also very good, but all of them (except the 357 with bullets no larger then 125 grains) will probably be problematic for they over penetration, and they hold only 6 rounds, which means you would have to be a very good marksman to do well against 5 dogs. 7 dogs-- and you'd have a real problem if they were determined.
Not all dogs are the same. Some can be turned by a wound or even scared off by the noise. Others cannot.

My friend Randy is a former SWAT cop and told me of 2 incidents where bad-guys had Pit Bulls, and no amount of shooting would turn them. They all had to be killed. All of them kept trying to charge and fight until they were dead.

Others dogs like a large sheppard were turned by a slight would with a 9mm.

So, as with any combat, you try to arm yourself as well as you can, but there are no such things as a safe fight. Train to put the odds in your favor, and understand that any fight is dangerous.

Dwight55
June 10, 2011, 05:44 PM
Late last year in Delaware, Ohio (reported by the Columbus Dispatch and the Delaware Gazette), . . . an elderly gent on his way to breakfast was savagely attacked by the dogs of a local thug.

If I remember correctly, they were rott/pitt mixes and supposedly gentle family pets. There were 4 of them.

The man will be severly crippled for the rest of his life, . . . dog owner got a couple years, . . . dogs were put down if I remember it all correctly.

You might google "Delaware, Ohio Gazette: dog attack" and you will get at least one article on it.

The old fellow did not have a chance at all. He is fortunate to even be alive today, . . . and only is so after many weeks at a major university hospital.

May God bless,
Dwight

JerryM
June 10, 2011, 05:44 PM
Where would these attacks probably take place? If in a city, and attacks have happened in the city, you might be arrested if you start shooting at 50 yards.

Bear spray would seem to be very effective. There is a spray for dogs, and I think it is HALT, that can be found in bicycle shops. It is designed for dogs.

I doubt you will want to carry a rifle or shotgun around all the time, and I would go for a high capacity Glock or something similar.

Oven cleaner would stop them, and I would not care if it blinded them.

Even in town I carry when out for a walk, and it is for dogs more than BGs.

Regards,
Jerry

kraigwy
June 10, 2011, 05:50 PM
Some "harmless" dogs came through my pasture and hamstrung one of my granddaughter's horses, crippling it.

Twice they caught my wife at the mail box (on the highway a mile from the house) and wouldn't let her out of the truck. That wont happen again.

When I see packs of stray dogs I'll take care of it. Since they don't use perpper spray on my horses I wont use pepper spray on them.

JerryM
June 10, 2011, 06:32 PM
I just read about the pack in Washington State. I would carry a pepper spray, but my first action would be to shoot and kill all of them I could. If convenient I would carry either a SA or pump shotgun.

When dogs form a pack they become killers of people and animals.
I hope they can kill them soon. I suspect that a couple of shots from a shotgun would set the pack running in retreat, but who knows how they might react at any particular time.

Jerry

nogo
June 10, 2011, 06:47 PM
Genetics of the domesticated dog or offspring provide no fear of man. Thus a pack of these animals are doubly dangerous. Feral dog packs strike terror in those who realize their threat. I suggest a Glock in addition to your J frame.

irish52084
June 10, 2011, 10:10 PM
Go to a higher capacity firearm if you can. Lots of people say that if I can't stop an attack wit X number of rounds, more won't help, but those people are full of poop.:D

ranburr
June 10, 2011, 11:24 PM
Dogs act differently in a pack. Carry a hi cap pistol.

45Gunner
June 10, 2011, 11:37 PM
I would think the first order of business in to call Animal Control to tell them of a pack of dogs. Don't know the laws where you are but most cities have regulations about dogs being on the loose.

With that being said, I always have my EDC gun within easy access. As with most packs of anything, there is usually a defined leader. If there is no escape route, determine the leader. Yup, us old guys have to evaluate a little different from the youngsters. Formulate a plan and review it from time to time. Decide on how you would best handle it given your set of circumstances and then be prepared.

Good luck.

MLeake
June 11, 2011, 12:03 AM
I'm normally one of those who advise keeping cool when it comes to dogs.

However, there is a difference between dogs, and dog packs.

There is also normally a qualitative difference between dogs owned by drug dealers and lowlifes, and dogs owned by most of the rest of us.

Each person's environs should dictate how they react to dogs, to at least some extent. If you know the people down the road want to be known as having big, bad, mean dogs, you can probably assume those dogs won't be friendly.

On the other hand, the neighbor's shepherd, that normally plays in the yard with the neighbor's kids, will probably be more bark than bite in most circumstances.

But even dogs that normally behave pretty well can become different animals when in packs. The pack is its own beast.

Nnobby45
June 11, 2011, 12:03 AM
Acually on reading the article I was concerned first for myself. I know dog owners and dog lovers decry that their mutts are harmless and some professing wisdom when it comes to dogs, speaking on how to recognize a dog as not a threat and how to deal with them by 'Standing tall' and speaking firmly.

A dog can be a loving pet, good around the children, etc., and become a danger to humans or livestock when running with a pack.

Same goes for a lot of humans who do bad things when they "run with the pack".

NEVER trust a bunch of dogs running together.:cool:

BarryLee
June 11, 2011, 12:08 AM
Yes, definitely call animal control and see if they can assist, also keep records of your calls. This could be helpful if there is an actual incident. You might also consider contacting the media sometimes they eat these stories up. This might prod the local municipality to do something about the problem.

I believe you are correct about the difficulty of shooting all the dogs in a charging pack. Like several have said a shot gun might be a better choice, but can you really carry one around all the time? If it were me I would really investigate the bear spray idea and see how practical that might be.

Powderman
June 11, 2011, 01:34 AM
If you live in a rural area, I would invest in one of these:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=32&section=products

The 930SPX is lightweight, is chambered for 3" magnum shells, and is one of the sweetest, soft-recoiling shotguns I have ever fired. While at the range, I fired one of these, loaded with 3" magnum 1 1/4 oz slugs. The recoil was just a hair more than the felt recoil of my Winchester 1300 that I was using to dust clays with hi-velocity #7 shot. It also cycles literally as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I'd have one of these handy if you are out and about on your property. If the concern is dogs, load with #1 Buck, high velocity 2 3/4 shells. If they come in a pack, pick your targets and light them up. I would also keep something like a Glock full size, possibly a .40 (Model 22) for a quick transition if they want more than you have already.

Word of advice--if you find yourself on the bad end of a dog pack, NEVER TURN YOUR BACK. You WILL be attacked, and they will try to drag you down.

In this situation, you literally can't have enough bullets. If you're a good enough shot, an AR15 carbine loaded with 55 grain softpoint will do the job.

Hook686
June 11, 2011, 01:39 AM
Thanks for the comments. The bear spray idea strikes me as probably the best idea to try ... together with carry a higher capacity handgun. My S&W 627, 8 shot .357 magnum, will have to do in this type situation.

TeamSinglestack
June 11, 2011, 02:19 AM
When dogs form a pack they become killers of people and animals.

Meh...

Not so much.

Dogs, regardless of whether they are pets, or feral, WILL adopt a "pack" mentality when in a group. However, that pack has a leader, and that leader significantly influences the behavior of the group/pack.

Predators go for easy prey. While a feral dog pack may target a human, the pack, as a whole, will NOT be committed to fight to the death for the prey item. Shoot one, or more, and the pack will more than likely realize that you are NOT a worthy prey item. They may continue to test, however, their attacks will NOT be as committed, and they will most likely flee.

As pack members, the destruction of one will influence the behaviors of the pack as a whole. Drop one, and the rest of the pack WILL be more hesitant. Drop two....

As a senior, a high cap weapon would be appropriate, however, even a 6 shot revolver will suffice IMO. The key to success is to recognize the threat and to deal with it immediately, ie, KILL one of the pack to show you are NOT an easy prey item. This action alone should suffice.

Nnobby45
June 11, 2011, 03:49 AM
Predators go for easy prey. While a feral dog pack may target a human, the pack, as a whole, will NOT be committed to fight to the death for the prey item. Shoot one, or more, and the pack will more than likely realize that you are NOT a worthy prey item. They may continue to test, however, their attacks will NOT be as committed, and they will most likely flee.

Sounds like Bubba and his friends to me. As I pointed out earlier, sometimes packs of animals and humans closely resemble one another when they attack. And yes, they may scatter if they meet resistance. And may not.:cool:

DRBoyle
June 11, 2011, 04:21 AM
Might be a problem with spray if the first time you notice the dog it's clamped down hard on a part of your body. Could only be one chance for you to reach for something on your person to get rid of the first dog.
People always talk about being alert but sometimes it is Murphy's law. Loading groceries into the car while on the phone can happen and is an obvious distraction.

No experience with the scenario but frankly if you can carry something with as many bullets as you can comfortably fit, then why not? That one time you need it might be that one time you wish you had more ammo before reload

JC57
June 11, 2011, 07:41 AM
If you can comfortably fire a J-frame 38, then a 9mm should be within your abilities assuming you have enough hand strength to operate the slide and other controls.

There are a number of quality, relatively high-capacity but still small enough for carry 9mm autos. Glock 26, S&W M&P Compact, Ruger SR9c come to mind.

If you live in the area where that pack of dogs is reported and are out and about in places where they might be a threat, then a higher capacity handgun seems likea prudent idea. The bear/pepper spray idea couldn't hurt either, and would give you a choice of options depending on the situation.

AK103K
June 11, 2011, 08:07 AM
If you dont or wont practice shooting at smaller, fast moving multiple targets, the bear spray might be the better choice. Only thing I worry about there is, one wrong shift of the wind, and/or you not paying attention, and you might be helping the dogs.

I agree with the high cap pistol, and would suggest you get accustomed to shooting multiple times on multiple targets, quickly. The first round may break the contact, but if it doesnt, you'd better be on top of your game. Keep in mind too, animals usually dont watch TV and arent influenced by what they watch. Just because you shoot them, doesnt mean it will stop them, unless you hit the kill switch right off.

Skans
June 11, 2011, 10:54 AM
For a pack of blood-thirsty dogs, nothing beats a 12 gauge. If I were disabled and lived in an area where wild dogs are a problem, I would consider carrying a registered Saiga SBS. FWIW, I have caught a pack of dogs run on the back side of some rural property I own in NE Georgia. They didn't bother me, but it sure made me think.

MLeake
June 11, 2011, 11:47 AM
I don't know too many people who would describe themselves as "older and disabled" who could, for practical purposes, carry a shotgun around with them in their daily routines. While a shotgun would be a good weapon for putting down aggressive critters, it's probably not a useful suggestion for most people with physical disabilities.

Sprays or handguns are probably more practical. High frequency noise generators could be, too.

Rifleman1776
June 11, 2011, 01:45 PM
As pack members, the destruction of one will influence the behaviors of the pack as a whole. Drop one, and the rest of the pack WILL be more hesitant. Drop two....



Very wrong. Don't count on that. Dogs do not have to be part of a pack to behave in a feral manner. A lone dog, like a family pet, can turn feral when let out for the night. And they often do.
I have had one encounter with the law in my 72 years. I was once arrested for shooting a dog that had killed three of my registered purebred cattle. The case actually went to trial. I brought in an expert witness who said even family pets often turn feral when allowed to run loose. They can be killers then revert to gentle pets when home again. They do not need to be part of a pack.
BTW, the judge dismissed the charges saying I had a right to protect my property.
As for your best choice of protection. I carried a scoped .243 with frangible bullets in the truck and shot at long distance before they even started coming my way.

Onward Allusion
June 11, 2011, 01:46 PM
Hook686
Blood Thirsty Pack of Dogs

WAY out in the country, (50 yards) shoot 'em before they get close as long as it's on your property and it isn't around people. Pepper spray is very effective against dogs.

Doc TH
June 11, 2011, 02:19 PM
For my own reasons, I have done a number of careful web searches for evidence (versus opinions) regarding dog attacks on humans. People seem to have had varying experiences with standard pepper spray. Some have said it was effective for them, and others reported the opposite. I have seen no direct, specific reported experiences using bear spray for dogs, but if you search the web you can find videos of bear spray deployed, showing that the bears (looked like black bears) moved away very quickly. From the videos, it didn't appear that blowback on the sprayer was likely, as the spray goes out with considerable force for 25 feet and more.
So, bear spray is certainly a consideration. Still, if packs are a local problem, a high capacity semiauto would seem to me to be a prudent choice. However, I have seen NO objective data that support a revolver capacity (5 - 8 rounds) as insufficient.
BTW, the majority of serious injuries from dog attacks have occurred in children.

fightingbard
June 11, 2011, 03:22 PM
First of all, I have to say that, the only "blood thirsty" animal in this world are humans. And that is an unquestionable fact.
Secondly, "no, you do not stand tall and stand firm" if you do not want to be attacked. You kneel down and speak quietly so they do not fear you. (Yes, they have no intention of "eating you".)
And lastly, if you fear dogs, they will know there is something wrong with you. Be mindful of yourself, and if you fear them, if you will get excited, there is a chance that a pack will attack you.
So be armed, and be prepared.


All the best

jhenry
June 11, 2011, 03:50 PM
So you suggest kneeling down so your face and throat are even closer to the potential threat, and your mobility it almost nil. Excellent plan.

HotShot.444
June 11, 2011, 03:53 PM
I've heard enough pro/con about Glock, that I had to check out a few; I now own 4. I'm hearing the same blather re: "judge" et al. So I have one: 3"x3". I'll keep you posted. If I were the O.P., I'd consider a "proofed" Judge and an accessory hi-cap .45 acp to dispatch a goodly number of canines. That first, then the bear-spray. I'll tend to the "proofing" now, planning on 3" oal brass, trimmed, stoked with varying discs and ØØØ. I'll find what works out to 10 yds. and if nothing does, I'll set down and shaddup. (anyone have any unused .303 Brit brass, or 9.3 x 74 R?)

fightingbard
June 11, 2011, 03:54 PM
Ok, I will say this again, it seems...:)
They do not want to eat you. They attack you, because they fear you. You have to show them that you are not a threat.
This is the case for dogs.

This will not be the case, if you are out all alone in the mountains, and if you are being chased by a pack of hungry wolves.


Best

JerryM
June 11, 2011, 04:41 PM
That does not square with attacks on children and elderly folks.
A pack may be bloodthirsty, and kill for the joy of killing.
Jerry

fightingbard
June 11, 2011, 05:06 PM
Dear Jerry,

Animals (that do not have a developed brain telling themselves that they are something else) does not have a perception as "joy of killing."
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.

Children and elderly or sick, can sometimes seem as prey to wild animals, but I very much suspect this situation can occur regarding dogs, unless they have somehow did this before. (hunting and eating human, by some bizarre incident)

Dogs are very much domesticated animals that have been living among humans for so long time, that, to put it simply: They know us...
They know that we can not be their meal of choice...
We are big, and we fight back...

To summarize:
They have no perception as joy of killing, they know we fight back, so the only logical explanation is that, if they behave aggressively it means they feel a threat from us.
I am only suggesting that, "you have to show that you are not a threat".
In most cases, this will simply do the trick.

On the other hand, irregularities and as mentioned before bizarre encounters sometimes happen, but to talk about them would be nothing more than speculating.

All the best

Doc Intrepid
June 11, 2011, 05:18 PM
Dogs have been trained to attack and kill humans.

Both by militaries, as well as by civilians.

The dogs may take no "joy" in it, but to imply that it cannot be is perhaps too broad a statement.

fightingbard
June 11, 2011, 05:25 PM
My God, I am feeling tired already.

Dear Doc Intrepid,

So regarding this thread, are you suggesting that, we should consider the possibility of military trained dogs? Or dogs trained by some psychopath?

No argument, and I mean no argument, regardless of its subject can be made upon irregularities and "one at a lifetime incidents".

Let's put it this way:
99% percent of the time, dogs do not attack people. If they do, 99% of the time, it is because they feel threatened.

I hope this will suffice.


Best.

NWPilgrim
June 11, 2011, 06:16 PM
Not all "packs of dogs" will be feral, but some certainly can be. You get several dogs who have been mistreated and trained to fight or attack ruthlessly (e.g., by drug dealers, etc) and you could encounter a pack that is not out for prey or protecting young so much as doing what they were abused/trained for: to attack ruthlessly.

Considering that there is a chance to encounter one or more abused, feral dog(s) I would suggest:

1) Always be ready for the worst case scenario FIRST, then de-escalate response if time available and indication of lower threat. That means a higher capacity/power handgun ready at hand.

2) DO NOT waste time calling Animal Control if you feel immediately threatened (dogs on same block of street with you). They do not have emergency response capability in most towns. They show up when available and that could be next hour or two days hence.

3) Having a non-lethal means to protect yourself would be good. If you get pepper spray get some that shoots a stream of liquid, not just a fog spray. It could be raining or windy. I would only use a fog pepper spray as last ditch defense for "they are on me and ripping me apart" and accept that I will get as much as they do. A stream pepper spray could be effective at 10 ft or more.

Like any threat of human or animal nature you have to evaluate each situation. The best thing is to run through various scenarios mentally and determine what behavior and circumstance will be signal to you that you are in grave danger. A pack of dogs 50 ft away and just mulling around yapping is not the same threat of a pack 50 ft away and running full bore toward you snarling.

If you see a pack coming near you, do not get transfixed on just the ones to your immediate front. Many packs soon develop the tactic to keep the prey busy to the front while one or more members loop around and attack the rear to hold or disable the prey. I've seen this behavior not just in feral dogs, but even tame dogs in play can have this instinct. Backing away before any get a chance to get behind you is imperative. Once surrounded your chances of survival go way down. I would apply this principle to a pack of feral dogs or feral human gang.

ETA: A quote of the Deer PArk police from the article: "because the dogs appear to be killing for fun rather than food." Over 100 animals killed in the last few months.

Nnobby45
June 11, 2011, 06:45 PM
For a pack of blood-thirsty dogs, nothing beats a 12 gauge.

But perhaps not when they're up REAL close and personal. Just like any other dangerous situtation.

MLeake
June 11, 2011, 09:35 PM
Fightingbard, just a few months ago, not too far from the University of Georgia, a retired couple was killed by a feral pack.

The wife was killed first. Apparently, she was walking their dog, and the pack attacked it. It's not clear whether she tried to defend the dog, and was subsequently attacked, or whether she and the dog were attacked. Either way, she was killed. (Reports at the time indicated animal control and police thought the dog was probably the initial target; I don't believe there were direct witnesses.)

The husband, a retired UGA professor, went looking for his wife. He found her, and the pack had not departed the area. While he was trying to assist her, he was attacked and killed.

Police ended up catching and killing over a dozen dogs, associated with the pack.

Feral packs don't behave in predictable manners.

They are also growing more common, due to the weak economy. People have to move, to find work, or simply lose their homes. Many of them just seem to ditch the dogs somewhere, or leave them at their old home.

I've ended up with three dogs, over the years, who were abandoned animals.

I would not recommend kneeling, etc, when dealing with a pack. Retreating, slowly and calmly, in an arc (non-linear movements are considered less threatening or antagonistic by dogs), while avoiding direct eye contact might work.

It would be good to have other options, if that doesn't work.

Doc TH
June 11, 2011, 11:36 PM
If anyone wants to kneel down and speak softly to aggressive canines, that is their choice - but not mine. Dogs of significant size can be very dangerous. I have seen too many unwary folks in emergency rooms with serious injuries to take a casual approach to a dog that is behaving aggressively. I have pasted data below from the Centers for Disease Control:

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC)

Dog Bite: Fact Sheet
(See CDC MMWR article.)

How big is the problem?
• About 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year.
• Almost one in five of those who are bitten, a total of 885,000, require medical attention for dog bite-related injuries.
• In 2006, more than 31,000 people underwent reconstructive surgery as a result of being bitten by dogs.

I don't trust unfamiliar aggressive humans and I don't trust unfamiliar aggressive dogs, and I'm certainly noy going to kneel down in front of them. So far I have not needed reconstructive surgery, and have no desire to have that experience.

sigxder
June 12, 2011, 01:46 AM
I had 5 acres of land out in the country many years ago. I used to like to walk my property at night. Obviously their were no street lights. So i carried a Mag light and a .357Magnum. We had a problem with feral dogs. Some just got loose and joined a pack. Others were coyote/dog hybrids. With a pack their is usually an alpha male. He's usually out in front. 2-3 times dogs came after me. Whenever I popped the lead dogs head with the .357 that and the muzzle blast sent the others running. Most people mauled by dogs are unarmed. All I know is what worked for me.

fightingbard
June 12, 2011, 04:23 AM
Guys,

Here, we have dogs everywhere. They are not owned, but they are not feral dogs. They are just being checked for diseases, labeled and sent back to streets. So they are pretty much a part of daily life.
Whole my life, I ve seen angry dogs, mistreated dogs, formed packs etc....
Only one time it was the opposite...Meaning, it was I that felt threatened. It was the only time I got scared from a dog/dogs.
It was a territorial threat for its owners house and it made very clear that if I take one more step it will attack. So I did not.
I stepped back slowly, turned around and that's it.

As I mentioned before, I do underline the possibility of dog attacks, they occasionally do happen. I know a pack "can be" very dangerous and I do feel very sorry about folks who lost their lives.
I would neither go near a pack that seems to have aggressive behavior, nor advice anyone to kneel down while surrounded by them.
All I mentioned are the general rules about "more or less domesticated" dogs.
"Generally", dogs do not attack people.

However, as I always do, I will again advise carrying a solid knife with you always.
To shoot a galloping angry dog (even one of them) would be very hard. Consider the possibility of the dog being "on you" in a second. Try and protect your throat by sacrificing left arm and use your right arm to stab it again and again.
At least that is what I would try and do.



All the best

Note: I still do not believe the term "blood thirsty" is adequate for animals, other than us...:)

Maxem0815
June 12, 2011, 06:06 AM
From my experience working for the Telephone Co. pepper spray or mace etc doesn't work on dogs. Bear spray may be better. I see lots of elderly people walking around with walking sticks or heavy canes to deal with dogs. Shooting a dog is hard they don't fall over when hit unless you use a BIG GUN like a rifle. I agree with the knife or big stick therory.

Mace

JerryM
June 12, 2011, 07:39 AM
Hi fightingbard,

I just do not buy your argument. But really I do not care what their motives are. If a dog attacks a human, unprovoked, then kill it.

Our society seems to want to find excuses for violent and illegal behavior, and make that an excuse for actions. If one does the crime he pays the price. That includes people and dogs.
I'd rather take the time to hunt down and destroy the pack that attempting to justify its behavior.

I have known of dogs getting into a chicken pen and killing 50 or so chickens, and not eating a single one. They killed them for the pleasure of killing. Instincts? Yes, but that didn't save their lives.

Regards,
Jerry

Deja vu
June 12, 2011, 08:28 AM
I would think that any thing that will work on a human will work on a dog (even the biggest dogs)

I think the best option is to call animal control if you see a pack like this and then stay inside.

If you do go have to go out I think your best bet would be bear spray. Any gun that would work well on a person would work as well. IF it was me I would carry my marlin 357 magnum carbine. Fairly high capacity. More accurate at longer distances and still light enough that it can be carried easily. Of course I live in a rural area so this may not be a good idea for every one.

TailGator
June 12, 2011, 10:10 AM
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.

As a veterinarian, I deal with dogs every day, and I can tell you that the word "only" in the above statement is incorrect. Fear-biting dogs certainly bite hard and can injure you, but aggressive dogs exist, and behavior changes markedly towards aggression when they are in packs.

I have personally had a small pack of dogs tear out screens to get into my house and kill my cats. And there was a report in this morning's paper about dogs who jumped a fence to attack an elderly man. They tore one arm off, and he is in a university hospital with doctors trying to save the other arm and repair facial injuries.

You may argue about whether the behavior of such animals is altered by humans or ingrained in their pack behavior as predators, but in the moments when you are defending yourself against such an attack, those arguments are not important. Dogs are extremely intelligent animals that coordinate attacks as predators, and as such are formidable opponents.

The advice of kneeling down to reassure a fearful dog is a reasonable way to handle a potential fear biter who is on a leash under the control of another person. It is of no value and potentially highly dangerous with an aggressive dog. Aggression and fear-biting both result in bite wounds, but they are very different behaviorally.

bigbaby
June 12, 2011, 10:11 AM
Pepper spray, Bro! By the way the dog owners and lovers are right; they know the difference between wild or feral dogs and a domesticated dog. IF you use the 'stand tall, talk firmly' method and truly are not afraid it works with every dog except trained guard dogs and OF COURSE wild or feral dogs. A lot of people are just afraid of dogs, their fears are confirmed at every opportunity, but it it because they are afraid of dogs. Dogs are very empathetic, they sense the fear, become afraid and attack.

Catfishman
June 12, 2011, 10:12 AM
Animals (that do not have a developed brain telling themselves that they are something else) does not have a perception as "joy of killing."
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.



Wow! I don't know what to say. Except that, you are wrong. I wonder how you developed this opinion.

Some dogs, for whatever reason, enjoy killing. I've seen it many times.


Last Winter, I had a pack of dogs charge across a large open field growling, barking and snarling at me. I doubt I was threatening them, as they had to cross a large field to get to me. I doubt they thought of me as an easy source of food.

All I could think about was what if it had been my 5 and 7 year old kids in that field instead of me.

kraigwy
June 12, 2011, 11:58 AM
Dear Fightingbard.

I realize I'm not the best animal trainer in the state, so I have a difficult time teaching my horses, chickens, etc. to "bow down and speak softly" to roaming dogs.

Nor do I expect my wife and grandkids to do the same when they are attacked while checking the mail.

I live in the country where city folks think we need more dogs and cats. They figure if they just drop them off in the country, they will be fed and cared for.

That is not the case, they start running in packs and attack live stock, poultry, and wildlife.

As a livestock/poultry keeper its my responsibility to care for and protect my critters. And Sir, that's exactly what I intend on doing. And I don't mean by sweet talking them out of chewing on my critters.

TXGunNut
June 12, 2011, 12:38 PM
I live in a rural subdivision near a metro area and like Capt Kraig I have no tolerance for feral dogs. My neighbors have livestock, small pets and young children that are at risk of attack and disease from these packs of feral dogs. The thought of adopting a submissive posture to a feral dog is foreign to me, I prefer modified Weaver but will kneel...for a longer shot.

MLeake
June 12, 2011, 12:43 PM
TailGator, I had thought about posting a link to the article you are talking about, but had decided it wasn't feral pack behavior. There were two dogs, and they belonged to the next door neighbor. For some reason, they jumped the fence and attacked the old man.

But it is a very good example of the amount of damage large dogs can inflict, and also of an attack not based on hunger or need to defend the pack.

Pit bulls... Sad thing is, I like most of the pit bulls I've met.

Last I saw, the owner hadn't been charged with anything. The dogs have been euthanized. I haven't seen any comments by other neighbors of the victim as to whether there had been any history of problems with those dogs, or whether the dog owner was viewed as a thug type - or whether this attack truly came out of the blue.

Some cases do come out of nowhere, when it comes to domestic dogs, but I think the majority are at least somewhat predictable.

Feral packs are not predictable, in my opinion (and in the majority collective opinion here, it seems).

KraigWY, we got our latest dog because (we are quite convinced) her previous owner thought dropping her off in the country, near a horse farm, was the best way to ditch the dog. My lady found the dog lurking in the woods near the stables, acting lost and confused but not aggressive. It took two days before she was able to convince the dog to approach; she then took the dog to the vet, where it turned out she did in fact have a microchip. The owner, when called, said the dog had grown much bigger than she had expected, and also the owner's elderly mother had moved in with her and her little daughter, and the dog posed a danger of knocking her mother down.

She said they had made the dog an outdoor dog, and she must have run off.

I have a hard time believing a dog that had always been an indoor dog, and slept with a child, would have roamed six miles as the crow flies, and about ten miles as the valleys actually go.

Some people are jackasses, and should be kicked in their private parts.

MLeake
June 12, 2011, 12:48 PM
Note: The owner, when contacted, did NOT want the dog back. She did agree to have the microchip company change ownership data to reflect that the dog is now ours.

Note2: The dog really likes the company of people, and is what a friend of mine would call a "velcro dog," always attached to either my lady's leg or my own.

Note 3: Pointer and either boxer or bull mix, by her looks, build, and shape of her head. And an absolute sweetheart. Particularly likes kids.

Note 4: I'm very happy Leanne found her before she went feral. It would have been a tragic loss of a good dog, and additionally the dog could really do some damage if she needed to.

Nitesites
June 12, 2011, 01:32 PM
I don't know...

A "neighbor's" emotionally neglected and chained mongrel freed itself from it's run and attacked a very friendly family cat...chewed it up, spat it out, tossed it about, then left it's carcass. On another occasion, this very same mongrel attacked my then 13 year old step-daughter. Bit her in the leg in a big way.

Domesticated dogs can get downright malicious when raised in the wrong conditions. That "neighbor" and I didn't see much the same and they moved very shortly.

Anyhow, I still think spray with a powerful delivery device is the best defense for a too curious dog or pack. And what about this idea?...If they get too close, deliberately spray some of that stuff on your shoes and/or pant legs?

MLeake
June 12, 2011, 01:39 PM
NiteSites, that might work if you have Bitter Apple, but my limited experience at being immersed in CS gas tells me that I don't want all those fumes rising up from my shoes and pant legs.

It could complicate defense against the dog, to have one's eyes filled with tears, one's nose filled with dripping snot, and one's mouth leaking drool.

There's a reason you want to be upwind of your spray, not directly over it or in it.

KBP
June 12, 2011, 01:43 PM
First of all, I want to set something straight. Some animals do kill for the "joy,excitement, instinct,challenge- call it anything you want" of the kill. My cats are well fed and they still kill any bird, mouse or rodent they can catch. They don't eat them most of the time. I have watched my dog kill rodents, groundhogs, etc and then leave them without eating them. Maybe "Bloodthirsty dogs is not the right term, but make no mistake that a pack of dogs can attack and kill without being in fear or desire to eat.(I'm not saying that they won't eat some prey, but that these two reasons are not the only reasons for the attacks) Humans maybe the only creature that kills out of hate, but there are many other reasons other than fear or hunger that motivates animals to kill! Animal behavior is not as simple as some people believe. Ask anyone who has studied animal behavior and they will set you straight.

Nitesites
June 12, 2011, 01:44 PM
That of course would be bad juju...but maybe worth a try. Say a trial run to see if or how much spray would cause the defender issues...

Lol, may have to pick up some spray for hell of it and test the waters.

TailGator
June 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
MLeake, we agree on almost everything, including both our like for the vast majority of bulldogs and our opinion of people who dump pets.

I would caution you and other readers, however, that almost any dog can exhibit predatory behavior when it is in a pack. Family dogs that are let out at night, or who get out of a fenced yard, when they join a pack, will exhibit behaviors that owners will declare to be impossible. My advice: don't limit pack behavior in your mind to feral dogs.

MLeake
June 12, 2011, 01:53 PM
NiteSites, if you do that, let us know how it goes. Three suggestions, though:

1) Do it someplace where you can kick out of your pants and shoes without creating a commotion, because you may want to get away from them quickly.

2) Have water nearby, for flushing out eyes.

3) Have a friend or loved one nearby but upwind, who can help you if necessary. (Note: Make sure it's either somebody who won't laugh at you, or somebody who, if they laugh at you, you won't get too mad at.)

3b) Depending on how well you can laugh at yourself, you may or may not want to ban cameras.

MLeake
June 12, 2011, 01:58 PM
TailGator, we agree on that point, too. When I was a kid in Maine, one pack that was running around, killing deer and poultry, included a poodle that had just escaped its house that morning.

I remember being very surprised to think that a poodle would be part of a pack in the first place, let alone out chasing deer.

Another point to bring up, for those who talk about Alphas and taking out the leaders: Don't assume the biggest dog is necessarily the Alpha. Identify Alphas by behavior, not appearance.

I know one lady who has three pit bulls and a chihuahua. Guess which one is the Alpha.

In my own "pack," the 9.5 lb Jack Russell bosses around the two mixes (the one already mentioned, and an American Bulldog mix).

nazshooter
June 12, 2011, 02:50 PM
A couple of comments:

1. Others have covered the "bloodthirsty" angle but I'll just say that as a kid we lived near a pheasant farm and our dog would catch and kill as many as would wander into our yard. He'd eat them on occasion but he'd catch far more than he could possibly eat.

2. Bear/dog/human pepper spray are all pretty much the same thing. There may be minor variations in the strength but the main difference is that bear spray comes in bigger cans and thus gives you much longer range. Human spray is available in a wide variety of types (cone/fog/stream/foam....) while bear spray is all cone/fog (at least that I've seen). Personally I prefer the cone style because it is more likely to get into the nose/lungs and I've personally seen people defeat the stream sprays simply by wearing sunglasses. I don't think you could reliably hit a charging dog, much less a pack, square in the eyes with a small stream type spray.

3. Using any kind of pepper spray on your clothes as some sort of a repellent is a terrible idea. The mist may burn the eyes/lungs but it actually tastes pretty good to bears and possibly dogs.

Nitesites
June 12, 2011, 02:58 PM
Tastes pretty good to bears and possibly dogs? Oh wow...season your chili anyone? All joking aside, I wasn't aware that is was a tastey treat for them.

My legs look like buffalo wings after I spray my pant cuffs lol!

Skans
June 13, 2011, 07:56 AM
First of all, I have to say that, the only "blood thirsty" animal in this world are humans. And that is an unquestionable fact.

That's not a fact by any stretch. There have been studies that have shown dolphins, whales, and several types of primates to engage in "gang" like murderous activity for nothing more than sport. My Jack Russell kills lizards, bugs and try for squirrels and peacocks for sport - its her favorite recreational activity. She'll follow a squirrel right up a tree just for a chance to get her paws on it. Its a good thing she only weights 15 lbs.

Ltriker
June 13, 2011, 08:45 AM
A local nonprofit had an issue with some wild dogs using their rear parking areafor a sleeping/play area, then they began to dig thru the trash cans and then became aggressive towards the employees...the last straw was when one tried tried to attack an employee...the local animal control was called...they came out and could not locate the dogs...twice.
Being near downtown, this was a sticky situation. i went over at sundown when no employees were present and the dogs were there. As soon as I exited my vehicle, here thhey came...growling at me. I used my suppressed P22 to quickly and quietly dispatch all three dogs.
Hate that it comes to this, but animal control would have out them down anyway. Had there been a child in the area, they would not have fared well.

Rifleman1776
June 13, 2011, 10:16 AM
First of all, I have to say that, the only "blood thirsty" animal in this world are humans. And that is an unquestionable fact.


I don't know what world you come from but that is as uninformed a statement as is possible.
Many animals kill just for the joy of killing. When we raised chickens racoons would kill a couple dozen each night and not eat them. Outside domestic cats will kill birds, mice, lizards and any other creature they can catch and not eat them. The list goes on and on, many-many animals kill just for the seeming pleasure they get from killing.

hartlock
June 13, 2011, 10:38 AM
I used to have a deer lease, right outside the city of Buda, Texas. The guy
that owned the land said he killed alot of dogs every year because of the
real estate development next to his property. He said he thought that when
city folks moved out into the country, the first thing they thought they had
to do was get at least 2 or more dogs! He told my hunting partner and I, that
he killed at least 40 dogs a year, caught chasing the cattle he had on the
property. I can believe that because we saw plenty of em chasing the deer.

Seaman
June 13, 2011, 10:55 AM
In October 2009, Canadian folk singer Taylor Mitchell was stalked and killed by 2 coyotes in Cape Breton Highlands National Park, despite the fact that there were other hikers nearby. A parks expert said the 2 coyotes appeared to be working in tandem, like a team, which they will do when taking down a deer, likely that the victim did not even realize what was happening. Other hikers scared the coyotes off. Canadian Parks do NOT allow any weapons (ie machete), handguns, or other firearms.

Well I won't be visiting a Canadian Park anytme soon.

We enjoy hiking and walking in the wild very much, and do a lot of park visits. Just started carrying a Walther PPS...its a terriffic CCW but only a 6 round magazine...not sure that would do for 2 attacking wild canidae, time to go back to a hi-cap pistol, any suggestions re appropriate pistol and caliber appreciated.

Dogs are real quick, I'm guessing the best tactic is to pepper the attackers with rapid fire bursts.

Single Six
June 13, 2011, 10:56 AM
Pepper spray may or not work on a dog. I've personally seen it work very well on canines, and I've seen it fail miserably too. Carry it, of course, just be ready for the possibility that it may not work as desired every time. In addition to whatever firepower you may decide to tote, a large folding or fixed blade knife is also a good idea...they make no noise, never jam, and never run out of ammo.

aarondhgraham
June 13, 2011, 10:59 AM
That really should be all there is to any argument.

Whenever I or anyone I care about is threatened by any animal,,,
I am going to have the animal picked up by the authorities,,,
If they won't respond I will dispatch the animal myself.

Sound harsh?
I really do not care.

They are animals and I am a human,,,
Humans take priority in my book.

I have been bitten by "Fluffy" before,,,
I feel bad for any dog owner if their beloved pooch gets shot,,,
But I feel infinitely worse for any human who has suffered an attack by a "harmless pet".

My father is 78 years old and lives out in the country,,,
He called and asked to borrow a shotgun,,,
Neighbors dog was on his back porch,,,
The dog wouldn't let him outside.

Long story short we had a conversation with the neighbor,,,
His response was, "That old dog wouldn't hurt a fly.",,,
Was I supposed to wait until it actually bit my Dad?

Later that day the dog settled in on dads porch again,,,
It growled at me and suffered the consequence.

Call me harsh but I gave the owner the opportunity to do something about it,,,
He didn't, so I did.

Aarond

JustThisGuy
June 13, 2011, 12:48 PM
I design security programs for government entities, NGOs (think peacekeepers), etc. As part of a comprehensive security program, we often develop Security Dog Programs including Executive Protection, Property Protection, Drugs, Explosives, Contraband, etc. We work a lot with protection dogs. We work with a dog trainer who has every conceivable certification. I myself am not certified, but am considered very knowledgeable on dog training.

I'm stunned by some of the advice in this thread. One piece in particular is so ill-informed and dangerous that following it almost certainly would lead to death with a feral pack.

Dogs are pack animals. They think of everything as pack or prey. When Fluffy chases the little teddy bear that I throw, that is prey hunting behavior. You might think that it is cute, but it rises instinctively in her and she cannot resist the call of fast moving prey. Dogs don't attack because they fear you. They attack because you are prey. They retreat when they are in fear and will only bite in fear if they cannot retreat.

Absolutely no dog trainer would ever get down to the dog's level to establish rapport with any unknown dog. The dog is trying to understand where you stand in the pack or if you are prey. You either establish yourself by calm detached behavior as a leader, or you are a follower in he pack or you are prey.

Feral dogs prefer to run in packs. They are not really interested in letting any human into their pack. When dogs run in packs, any human nearby is a threat to their pack, or will be determined to be potential prey. They will either move away from a threat, or engage it to test it, and if the human looks like prey, they may attack.

Please kindly disregard any advice to get down to a dog's level unless you know the dog and have established yourself as the dog's leader. You cannot do this with a feral pack. Therefore when you are down, you are prey.

If advice has the potential to get people killed, it is best not to be given.

I think this is why God created high-capacity magazines.

troy_mclure
June 13, 2011, 01:38 PM
aarondhgraham, i had a similar incident happen to my 8 year old(at the time) sister. a local dog had her "treed" on a tire swing in our yard, snarling and growling. i called the neighbor who said "chubby wouldnt hurt a fly, just shoo him home".

when i walked out the door the dog charged me, so i came back out with 12 rounds of .22 short. i hit the dog at least 5 times, most as it was running away.

if an animal becomes a threat it does not deserve "mercy", it needs to be killed, if it dies in my yard or runs off to the woods the result is the same.

Stiofan
June 13, 2011, 02:06 PM
Two dogs rip elderly man's arm off 06/13/11. Just happened today.

http://clipsyndicate.com/video/playlist/8178/2538209?wpid=1904

cracked91
June 13, 2011, 02:39 PM
I just do not buy your argument. But really I do not care what their motives are. If a dog attacks a human, unprovoked, then kill it.

Amen

I am a human. A dog is a dog. I will not submit to an aggressive dog in any way. I don't care how some people feel about this.

As for the pack mentality being broken by the dispatching of one or more dogs. . . .

I would say depends mostly on the breed, and/or size of the pack. Many dogs will be scared by noise or the demise of one of their own. Some will not.

If there are any pitbull mixes, I would highly suggest dealing with them first.

AZAK
June 14, 2011, 03:40 AM
I would like the responses to consider the older, less able body citizen ... young bucks seem to possess super powers I don't.

Bear spray.

Much easier to use than a pistol; generally does not have any legal fallout or, "You what?! You shot my dog!!!". A shotgun is a great option; however, is not "practical" in many surroundings (think the 'burbs, urban, neighborhoods...)

In my lifetime I have been bitten thrice, attacked more than that, and advanced upon many times by dogs; not to mention my "encounters" with the bear, the moose and once upon a time (and in another place) the mountain lion.

I have intervened twice this spring, getting between dogs chasing a teenage girl and an elderly couple out for a walk; both times I stopped while driving down a paved road and jumped out to assist. All three were very afraid and felt certain that the dogs were going to attack/bite them. Same dogs on both occasions. Tracked down the owners who had no idea their precious little pets were chasing people a mile from their home. Pack mentality; and it only takes two to start a pack. (Since that time I have heard that they walk them on leash and do not allow them to run free.)

When I lived in the bush, it was common practice to shoot loose dogs on sight; this in a village with sled dogs, but also the year's meat/fish drying/stored outside not to forget the children who also played outside.

I have seen firsthand the effects of: bear spray, harsh words, big sticks, and the application of hot lead. Cloud of bear spray turns 'em away. Not always so with the other options that I have witnessed. I was shocked by just how many rounds some dogs can "absorb" and keep coming when I witnessed a defensive shooting in a dog attack firsthand.

Dogs can be very territorial. And some have BIG territories.

First, be prepared to STOP the aggression. I hike daily and always carry bear spray; then again I live where there are big bears, and moose, and wolves, and dogs... and I see them all the time. I also carry a 10mm auto and often a 300 H&H magnum or 12 gauge shotgun; after all, it is always hunting season where I live, different game sometimes but always hunting season.

Second, SOLVE the problem. If you are seeing the same dogs "out and about", and especially if they are being aggressive, find out where they are coming from and either (or both) contact the owners and "Animal Control". If they don't take care of it, you may have to.

PS I have been around dogs all of my life, currently have three; none of them runs around loose/unattended. And for what it is worth, my folks do let their dogs run free, and have had them "bring back"/as in right on their tails bears and mountain lions just about to their front door; sometimes requiring a trip to the vets for some stitches for the dogs. (Not near where I live, but many many many miles south.)

AZAK
June 14, 2011, 03:50 AM
Upon rereading my post I thought that I should clarify this:
When I lived in the bush, it was common practice to shoot loose dogs on sight; this in a village with sled dogs, but also the year's meat/fish drying/stored outside not to forget the children who also played outside.

If someone knew the owner, they would try to contact the owner; however, there were never any "dog pack" problems when I lived in the bush because if a dog stayed loose, it disappeared.

Nordeste
June 14, 2011, 09:06 AM
I read the entire thread, and as some folks say, I totally disagree with putting oneself at dog level (kneeling) to calm the dogs down. Standing tall is not an option, as well. If the pack is showing aggressiveness, your only option is to discourage them from attacking. That means you have to be more vicious than they are, so they feel threatened and retreat.

I've had dogs most of my life. Dogs the kind people call "dangerous". Two American Staffordshire Terriers and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Curiously enough, now we have two Yorkshire Terriers (and I wish some day, they'd be as disciplined and obedient as the Staffords were). Never a problem with those massive jaws, but they got the right training.

I wouldn't reccomend any type of spray. That is to be used when they are already too close. My choice would be a high cap semiauto, and perhaps a laser mounted system for quick target acquisition, ready to go when out of the holster. That makes it a Glock 17.

micromontenegro
June 14, 2011, 09:36 AM
I'm stunned by some of the advice in this thread. One piece in particular is so ill-informed and dangerous that following it almost certainly would lead to death with a feral pack.

I absolutely agree.

Won't bore you with my CV, but suffice to say that I am serious enough about dogs that I have bred two world champions (FCI WDS), and all of my children have started showing dogs at the minimum age of 5. Sometimes, my whole life revolves around dogs.

And my humble opinion is that getting down to meet the height of an aggressive dog(s) could amount to suicide.

I've been in several scary incidents with individual dogs and small packs, and all of them have been successfully solved by the proper "I am not scared of you, and attacking me is a bad idea" attitude. Only once, confronted with a large pack, had to shoot the leader, which promptly squealed and sent all the pack running away.

BTW, a solid chest hit with a 380 at about 8 yards didn't seem to cause any incapacitation- he just run like hell with the rest. He was a German Shepherd.

Another BTW, I am not implying that shooting the alpha will scatter a pack. This is just one experience. But it is worth a try.

spclPatrolGroup
June 14, 2011, 09:46 AM
We were testing an old can of bear spray, to see how far it would shoot, and figuring it would keep the bunnies away from the apple trees. Well the wind wasnt exactly calm and some wafted back at us, even with such a mild does, it was pretty intense, like when you scratch your eye when eating hot wings. I would not want to mace myself with a bunch of dogs around me, I would rather be swinging an aluminum baseball bat which isnt effected by wind. Or better yet have a pistol, or even better yet, pick those suckers off from 200 yards with the 22-250.

Onward Allusion
June 14, 2011, 11:00 AM
Ok - after reading through 3 pages of thoughts, I have to add my .02.

- Only a moron would get on their knees to try to calm an agitated dog that is not yours. It's a good way to get mauled or killed.

- Animals not only kill/attack for food or out of fear. Some kill/attack out of INSTINCT. Don't believe it? Look at fluffy and a bird or mouse. How about fido and the squirrel? Still others do it out of TERRITORY.

- Those who would dispatch a neighbor's dog for growling at them because it is on their porch would only start a war with their neighbor. A better way would be to spray the dog with pepper spray the first couple of times. If the situation continues even after the neighbor is talked to, THEN kill the animal. Cover your butt by calling the authorities on the first couple of incidents.

- If the area allows for it (i.e. little to no people and legal with firearm laws), culling feral dogs and cats should be done whenever possible.

- Finally, a human life is worth that of 1,000,000+ dogs. Those who think otherwise need to have their heads examined.

fightingbard
June 14, 2011, 01:58 PM
Hi,

Okey, I stand corrected about my idea, regarding "dog attacks are very rare". If this many people witnessed these incidents, it means they are not rare.
I will try and mention a few issues, previously mentioned on the thread.


1. Some people actually calculated the value of life among the living.

This means if this thread goes on, we can see writings such as: 1 human = 2 cows= 30 cats = 1 mil. insects.....etc.
Excuse me for saying but, it is my belief that, no one and I mean no one should dare to estimate a value for life.
What will normally go after this will start a moral and ethical discussion, so I will not go on.

2. If people who are actually working with animals on their jobs, say that "animals kill for the joy of killing" I will try and believe them.
On the other hand I will never believe that they are or call animals blood thirsty. Animals may kill for joy, but to point out I do not think an animal will say kill 2000 ducks in one hunt just for fun.
Not to mention the fact that we slaughtered our kind for centuries and centuries over power. And we still do.
However we play "pretend" very well..:)




Best

Big Bill
June 14, 2011, 02:13 PM
I am a disabled old man. The article about the Blood Thirsty Pack of Dogs located in NE Washington showed concern for children (it's for the children ... right ?). YES! It sure is. They can't carry a gun or pepper spray to defend themselves. You've already lived your life - they haven't. SHEESH!

aarondhgraham
June 14, 2011, 02:32 PM
Those who would dispatch a neighbor's dog for growling at them because it is on their porch would only start a war with their neighbor. A better way would be to spray the dog with pepper spray the first couple of times. If the situation continues even after the neighbor is talked to, THEN kill the animal.

Again I ask,,,
Should I have waited until the dog bit my 79 year old dad?

I did talk to the neighbor,,,
He blew me and the problem off,,,
If it starts a war (which it didn't) then so be it.

A low throated growl from a dog is the same as an,,,
"I'm gonna kick your @$$" from a human,,,
Both can deserve an armed response.

Aarond

MLeake
June 14, 2011, 03:42 PM
FightingBard, it always amazes me that people who have the least experience with animals make the strongest statements about their potential behavior. Happens quite a lot, in my experience.

(I've had dogs most of my life; my family has owned cats as well; for the past several years, I've been with a lady who has several horses; she grew up on a farm with horses, hogs, cattle, and a variety of other animals; my sister and I have volunteered at shelters; etc.)

My little Jack Russell terrier loves people, and is quite friendly. She does not love, and is not friendly, with the following: moles, rats, mice, spiders, roaches, lizards, frogs, butterflies. She has killed all of those. She hasn't eaten any of them, that I'm aware of. She hasn't killed a squirrel, yet, but she really, really wants to. If she didn't have a bad right hip, I'm sure she'd have been up a few trees after them. (Bone spur as a pup; vet removed the ball joint part of her femur; muscle tone is all that holds the leg in place, and yet she kills lots and lots of small animals.)

When I was a kid, my friend's Siberian Husky got loose, and broke into another neighbor's rabbit hutch. Killed every last rabbit. My friend's parents paid for the rabbits, and also had to place the dog on a farm somewhere.

In my best friend's neighborhood, outside Knoxville, a Boston Terrier (of all things) was roaming the neighborhood, chasing kids, and attacking small animals left and right. It actually killed a couple of other small dogs in the neighborhood. Blount County animal control is a joke. The Boston's owners could not be convinced that their dog was a hazard. It showed up at my friend's place one day and went straight for his Jack Russell / Basenji mix. My friend intercepted it, and kicked it like a football. (He'd have shot it, but that would not have been safe on his street - too many houses.) The Boston avoids his part of the neighborhood, now.

Don't even get me started on cats - and I like cats. But you know, when a kitten lies on its back, and holds a ball of yarn or other toy with its front paws, while kicking at it with its back paws - it's actually practicing gutting another animal. And when a dog shakes a stick or a toy, its practicing neck breaks.

Loving animals is great. Putting them on pedestals is unwise.

AK103K
June 14, 2011, 04:12 PM
Finally, a human life is worth that of 1,000,000+ dogs. Those who think otherwise need to have their heads examined.
That all depends on who's who.

I always found it harder to lose a dog, than I did a lot of people. Around here, if you shot one of our dogs, and we were present, you'd likely be found DRT of multiple gunshot wounds in a mix of calibers. Self defense of course, I mean, you did shoot first. ;)

If we werent there, and my wife found out later you did it, I can pretty much guarantee, it would not be as pleasant. :)

MLeake
June 14, 2011, 04:17 PM
AK103K, to a point, I agree with you. I won't advocate shooting people over a dog in an online forum...

OTOH, OnwardAllusion, I've run into a lot of people, over the years, who are not worth a single dog. I've run into a lot of people whom I barely consider to be people.

Take the guy in Thailand who forces small kids to beg in the streets, or worse, then bring him all their earnings. Is he worth a million dogs? Is he worth a cockroach?

There are a lot of people out there, whose value is less than zero.

Onward Allusion
June 14, 2011, 04:27 PM
aarondhgraham
I did talk to the neighbor,,,


Again I ask,,,
Should I have waited until the dog bit my 79 year old dad?

No, you shouldn't have waited until the dog bit your father. I would have went from talking to the neighbor to peppering the dog to shooting the dog.

MLeake
June 14, 2011, 04:38 PM
aaron, I can understand why you took the action you did, but I also think an intermediate level of force might have been preferable.

Dogs tend to figure out when places aren't good for their well-being. Odds are, if you'd sprayed/maced it, it would not have returned.

I also know of cases where things have gotten very, very nasty after the shooting of a dog. Your situation didn't go that way, which is good, but there were decent odds it could have. (Not necessarily violence, but vandalism would be a pretty common response.)

Of course, you might not have had spray or other methods available to you.

Given the same circumstances (dog on the doorstep barring exit), I wouldn't have access to spray, either. But I would have access to birdshot or a .22 to the flank (trying to inflict pain without hitting anything vital); or a cup of scalding water; or a spray bottle with some vinegar, etc.

I'd personally prefer to start at a level below killing, given the option.

Now, if the dog were actively charging me, and I were outside the house, and if I really thought it would bite...

aarondhgraham
June 14, 2011, 04:46 PM
I saw no need to take a chance.

Not to sound too melodramatic,,,
But the dog was a clear and present danger.

Your proposed actions could easily have solved the problem,,,
My course of action was a definite sure thing.

Now, if it were just me,,,
I might have tried something non-lethal,,,
But I live over an hour away from my dear old Pappy,,,
I didn't want to get the cell phone call that he had been mauled.

This was a large dog marking out his territory,,,
You had to have been there to appreciate the threat.

Aarond

Onward Allusion
June 14, 2011, 04:51 PM
MLeake
AK103K, to a point, I agree with you. I won't advocate shooting people over a dog in an online forum...

OTOH, OnwardAllusion, I've run into a lot of people, over the years, who are not worth a single dog. I've run into a lot of people whom I barely consider to be people.

Take the guy in Thailand who forces small kids to beg in the streets, or worse, then bring him all their earnings. Is he worth a million dogs? Is he worth a cockroach?

There are a lot of people out there, whose value is less than zero.

We all have run across those types of people at one time or another. Yes, those types are not worth the air they breathe.

However, I'm not specifically referring to "those" types of people. If I see someone being mauled by a dog or dogs, my first reaction would be to stop it even if it means killing the dog. I'm not going to stop and ask if he's a sinner worthy of damnation and then take action. This is where my philosophy of "a person is worth a 1,000,000+ dogs" comes into play.

MLeake
June 14, 2011, 04:54 PM
aaron, you got censored? Hard to believe; wonder what the checker thought you typed, but I'll bet it was actually legit.

I'm not trying to criticize you directly, as I'm sure you felt you did what you had to do. But, should it ever come up again, some options could exist. The point here isn't to slam you for what you did, but to present possible options should a similar situation ever repeat.

Situation: dog is outside, I'm inside.

Block off the entryway with a piece of furniture, before opening exterior door. Zap dog around makeshift barricade with deterrent of choice.

In my case, an oak rocking chair would make a good barrier. Dog won't go over it or under it quickly; if it tries, that's when it gets shot.

Question: did you inform animal control that the neighbor's dog wouldn't let you leave the house? While it would be hard to believe they wouldn't respond quickly to that, I do know of a place or two where I could believe that might happen.

Question: did you have reason to believe the dog would come back and bother your father again, if you ran it off one time? (That would be another valid reason for escalating quickly, IMO.)

MLeake
June 14, 2011, 04:56 PM
Onward, that would depend, too.

I've seen people provoke dogs; when those types get bitten, that's just too bad.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...

Now, if I saw a pack attacking a person; or an aggressive dog attacking some old lady, well that's a different story.

It's just that most "attacks" I've seen, were cases where the person had it coming.

Edit: the two times I got bitten, I had it coming. Though not deliberately, in one case I hurt the dog (it had arthritis, and I was too young to understand). In the other, I got an overgrown puppy too riled up, playing rough, and I panic-flnched when it grabbed my hand. If I hadn't ripped my hand out of its mouth, odds are its teeth wouldn't have even broken the skin.

But I've seen kids who used to poke a fenced-in dog with sticks, or throw rocks at dogs; amazingly, their parents complained when those dogs came over the fence or broke their collars, and bit a kid.

And, as I've said before, if one of my dogs bites you, odds are decent you should fear me, too, because you'll have had to do something serious to them in order to get them to bite.

Onward Allusion
June 14, 2011, 04:57 PM
aarondhgraham
Honestly gentlemen,,,
I saw no need to take a chance.<SNIP>

Listen, you took action that you thought was right to protect your dad. People like me can armchair quarterback it for a dozen Mondays. The bottom line is that many people, myself included, would have reacted in a similar way if an elderly family member was in the same situation.

Onward Allusion
June 14, 2011, 05:00 PM
MLeake
Onward, that would depend, too.

I've seen people provoke dogs; when those types get bitten, that's just too bad.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...

Yup - it all comes back to (too often used phrase) situational awareness....

serf 'rett
June 14, 2011, 06:59 PM
I’ve been sewn up two different times from dog attacks. Probably have been bitten a half a dozen other times, but didn’t get ripped up enough to need the needle and catgut. Had to climb a tree to escape a pack of feral dogs once – let me assure you I could NOT do crap with the bow and arrow when they came after me. Learned a lot about dogs while working in door to door sales one summer and by the end of my tour, I became somewhat astute on sorting out Fluffy from Fangs whenever I encountered them. I would have been bitten many more times, if I didn’t have a bulky hard sided sales case; the case had some impressive scars by September.

I’ll not pretend to give advice on which is the best weapon – rifle, spray, high capacity pistol, shotgun – I’m sure each has their own merits in specific situations; however, I will say my personal experience makes me believe you DO NOT want the dog(s) to be close before action is taken. Things happen really fast once the dog is trying to drag you down or jumping for your throat.

As for the kneeling suggestion, you might want to add praying to the kneeling. You need to pray that heaven will accept someone who’s participating in lunacy. I wouldn’t even find a big knife very comforting in multi dog encounter.

There was one time an eight member pack came for me and my brother while we were walking down the railroad tracks. The pack spotted us, split up and was working toward at us from several directions. I’m glad that we were routing to, instead of from, the dove field; i.e., we had pockets bulging with birdshot shells. The pack stayed with us for about 300 yards before the alpha decided to close the distance, but the dog appeared to have experience because he shied away when the shotgun was pointed at him. We didn’t shoot the dogs but later wished we had.

A few months later, our pet dog (a Sheppard mix) came home with a bullet hole in his flank. The neighbor had shot him while he was running cows with the feral pack. Since we couldn’t break him of his bad habits he eventually went MIA (it was rumored that the neighbor’s marksmanship had improved.)

AK103K
June 14, 2011, 07:01 PM
If I see someone being mauled by a dog or dogs, my first reaction would be to stop it even if it means killing the dog.
No argument there. Then again, same goes for people. There really is no difference.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...
Which was basically my point as well.

8shot357
June 16, 2011, 03:17 AM
Be prepared! That's it.

output
June 16, 2011, 07:00 AM
Reading this article I concluded with 5, or more dogs out for blood, unless I start shooting at 50 yards I'm dead meat, and my J-Frame will not cut it. I would like to hear some ideas, thoughts and maybe experiences if you live in a community where similar threat by a dog pack, or other serious animals was involved. I would like the responses to consider the older, less able body citizen ... young bucks seem to possess super powers I don't.

Hook,

I see these questions popup fairly frequently. I often do not chime in.

Here are some statists that were taken directly from the CDC.org (Center for Disease Control and Prevention)

- About 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year.
- Almost one in five of those who are bitten: a total of 885,000: require medical attention for dog bite-related injuries.
- In 2006, more than 31,000 people underwent reconstructive surgery as a result of being bitten by dogs.

The above statistics show that there is definitely reason to be concerned with being bitten or attached by one or multiple dogs.

As a dog trainer, I recommend carrying pepper or bear spray. If you are being attacked by multiple dogs I do not recommend using lethal force (firearm) in an urban environment there are just way too many things that can and probably will go wrong.

Most dogs have a faster reaction time than humans and when attacking they will go after just about anything that moves “fast” especially your hands and legs. Remaining still and as calm as possible in most cases will be your best bet from my own experience(s). Once you are being attacked all fine motor skills will almost certainly be lost and that presents a huge problem! Pepper spray will get the dogs off of you (and probably be much easier to use), stop the attack, and give you enough time to get out of that area. If there are a lot of dogs in your area carry the spray in your hand so that it will be ready if and when you need it.

I would also recommend consulting a local dog trainer and taking a course on dog bite defense. It might be a little tricky to find a trainer in your area that offers it, but it is well worth the course. I have done a bunch of classes for the local postal workers. If you need help finding someone PM me and I will be more than happy to help.

There is also a book that you can read called “Inside Of a Dog” that is a great read. It does not talk about dog attacks but it talks about the attention of animals, manipulating attention, and how to read a dogs body signals.

603Country
June 17, 2011, 12:41 PM
This is what happened to me. About 3 years ago I was deer hunting on our small ranch in central Texas. I was in an elevated box blind and could hear a pack of dogs to my north. They were hot after something, and the sound continued until I decided to give up the hunt and get down from the blind. When I did that, I found that the sound was actually to my west, and closer than I thought, and on my property. I had the 260 Ruger Compact, and the usual 3 rounds I put in hunting rifles, and I walked over to see what all the racket was about. The dogs were up in some heavy brush, so I quietly started working my way over to them. They were still making noise like they had bayed something up a tree. As I got very close to all the racket, I still couldn't see any of the dogs. Then...to my 2 o'clock, about 20 feet away, was a big dog who saw me just as I saw him. He didn't hesitate. He laid the ears back, showed me a serious set of canines and came at me low and slow with a deep growl. I didn't hesitate. I shot him dead on the spot. Here came another one with ears back and teeth showing and growling. I shot him, and then dogs were all hauling butt, but two came right at me. I shot the big one at maybe 4 feet, purely on instinct, and the little one apparently chose to fight another day. That was fine with me, because I was out of ammo (in the rifle). Then I got a real good case of the shakes. Then I put more bullets in the rifle. After that I examined the dogs. All were lean and tough looking, with shredded ears and scarred faces. One had a dog tag. To this day I don't know who's dogs they were, and I don't care. I think they would have killed me if they could have. That short quick little Ruger 260 will always be a favorite of mine. The reloaders among you will be pleased that before I took my shaky A__ back to the house, I found my brass.

DRBoyle
June 17, 2011, 08:51 PM
Sir that is surely one of the best true experiences ever related regarding firearms.

Busting a few myths, pouring a cold bucket on the hysteria from the antis and highlighting what man had in mind regarding this important tool. A great tale of real world personal survival especially with something not so tactical:). Good to read you got out of it without a mark.

The previous posters comments about fine motor skills was an eye opener. Didn't think or even consider that aspect.

troy_mclure
June 17, 2011, 09:52 PM
i couldnt find the link, but several years ago a guy in Illinois(?) pepper sprayed a dog that was trying to attack him as he got out of his car in his driveway.

after he sprayed it he called animal control to report the incident knowing who the owners of the animal were.

he was later successfully sued in a civil suit for cleanup of the dog owners house from pepper spray contamination, and medical bills for the owners child who petted the dog.

iirc it was over $10k.

JohnKSa
June 17, 2011, 10:24 PM
Situation: dog is outside, I'm inside.

Block off the entryway with a piece of furniture, before opening exterior door. Zap dog around makeshift barricade with deterrent of choice.

In my case, an oak rocking chair would make a good barrier. Dog won't go over it or under it quickly; if it tries, that's when it gets shot.

Question: did you inform animal control that the neighbor's dog wouldn't let you leave the house? While it would be hard to believe they wouldn't respond quickly to that, I do know of a place or two where I could believe that might happen.

Question: did you have reason to believe the dog would come back and bother your father again, if you ran it off one time? (That would be another valid reason for escalating quickly, IMO.)If a dog is out of its territory and on my property (synonomous, by the way), is big enough to pose a threat to me or any other member of my household and is exhibiting menacing behavior it had better back down convincingly and rapidly if a confrontation develops.

Frankly I'm just as concerned with assuring myself that there will be no recurrence as I am in resolving the current confrontation. I can't patrol the property all the time to keep it away and the consequences of a repeat performance when I'm not available to deal with the threat are unthinkable.

<<<I suppose it's worth noting that the goal of preventing a recurrence is not legal when dealing with human attackers. Deadly force can only legally used against humans to prevent the commission of certain serious crimes under certain circumstances WHEN the crime is imminent (just about to happen) or actually in progress. You can't legally use deadly force against a human with the goal of preventing a possible attack or recurrence of an attack that might happen next week, next month, or next year. It would certainly be the best strategic approach, but it's not legal.>>>

fightingbard
June 18, 2011, 04:51 PM
Dear MLeake,

There is one other thing that amazes me as much. And that is people making assumptions about people that they do not know..:)

For instance, I have raised two dogs, and a cat. At one point in my life (for about 10 years) my family owned a ranch in a godforsaken place near nowhere, where we had aprox. 300 sheep, two horses and everything else you can think of.

Nearest village was about 15 km away, and at most nights all we hear were the sound of coyotes , and sometimes wolves.

To get back to the point...

In this thread I understood that there are a lot of people that feel themselves threatened by packs of dogs.
I know the feeling of being threatened so I understand it. No argument there...
Myself on the other never felt this way, among dogs. Whether there is one dog, or a pack.
I am a citizen of a country, where dogs do not get caught even if they have no owner, so there are dogs everywhere (I am not arguing here, that this is right or wrong), but alas maybe by some very fortunate luck, I have never seen any dog, like many mentioned in this thread.

Also I will never frame a living soul as blood thirsty, just because they have instincts.
Thinking about it, planning, making preparations to kill...now that is blood thirsty. And only we humans do that.

Finally I simply say that, I never did feel threatened bu dogs (except just one time) and do not plan to be.
Unless it/they seem to be "rabid dogs"


Best

Tyrant
June 18, 2011, 05:19 PM
I watched the local officer attemp ward off a pitbull with pepper spray. I could see he was making direct contact with the animals face but it continued to attack. He ended up shooting the dog.
Animals should be contained to a yard or on a leash. If loose and aggressive, they should be shot or captured and put down.

TailGator
June 19, 2011, 03:26 PM
I have raised two dogs, and a cat

Please don't be offended, but the simple truth is that you are debating with people with far more experience, training, and qualifications than that.

Thinking about it, planning, making preparations to kill...now that is blood thirsty. And only we humans do that.

Your statement has been refuted by at least one veterinarian, several dog trainers, and many other people who have related accurate and valid observations to the contrary. Repeating it without support after such refutations does not enhance its veracity or credibility. For your own safety, please abandon the thought that all dogs except the rabid are benign, harmless, and of no threat to you or others.

Onward Allusion
June 19, 2011, 03:44 PM
fightingbard
Dear MLeake,
There is one other thing that amazes me as much. And that is people making assumptions about people that they do not know..
For instance, I have raised two dogs, and a cat. At one point in my life (for about 10 years) my family owned a ranch in a godforsaken place near nowhere, where we had aprox. 300 sheep, two horses and everything else you can think of.
Nearest village was about 15 km away, and at most nights all we hear were the sound of coyotes , and sometimes wolves.
To get back to the point...
In this thread I understood that there are a lot of people that feel themselves threatened by packs of dogs.
I know the feeling of being threatened so I understand it. No argument there...
Myself on the other never felt this way, among dogs. Whether there is one dog, or a pack.
I am a citizen of a country, where dogs do not get caught even if they have no owner, so there are dogs everywhere (I am not arguing here, that this is right or wrong), but alas maybe by some very fortunate luck, I have never seen any dog, like many mentioned in this thread.
Also I will never frame a living soul as blood thirsty, just because they have instincts.
Thinking about it, planning, making preparations to kill...now that is blood thirsty. And only we humans do that.
Finally I simply say that, I never did feel threatened bu dogs (except just one time) and do not plan to be.
Unless it/they seem to be "rabid dogs"

You are definitely entitled to your beliefs, however, when they go contrary to that of professionals, statistics, and those with first hand experience, I would have to question the logic. I am reminded of something I had said to one of my associates. It went something like - "Is it really possible or probable that everyone else has a problem when they all state that they feel you are not approachable and are afraid to speak with you?"

Perhaps those in the US are less tolerant of feral or vicious animals. Different strokes...

THplanes
June 19, 2011, 05:30 PM
Also I will never frame a living soul as blood thirsty, just because they have instincts.
Thinking about it, planning, making preparations to kill...now that is blood thirsty. And only we humans do that.




Pure nonsense, chimpanzees have been observed making preparations and engaging in warfare. If they can isolate a member of the enemy, they will kill it. If you've ever wondered why pet chimps that attack their owners go after the face and genitals, it's because that's what they when making war against another troop.

For many years dead seals have washed up on beaches. They appear to have been killed by blunt force trauma. Boats are the obvious possibility, except that there are multiple areas of bruising. Someone finally observed the cause. Porpoises were killing them and not for food. They gave the appearance that they did it simply for fun. There own version of a blood sport.

cnimrod
June 20, 2011, 10:14 PM
MLeake - "When I was a kid, my friend's Siberian Husky got loose, and broke into another neighbor's rabbit hutch. Killed every last rabbit. My friend's parents paid for the rabbits, and also had to place the dog on a farm somewhere."

Must be a big farm, cause that's where our Springer Spaniel that bit everyone in the family (father last) ended up;)

RIP Penny

jhenry
June 21, 2011, 07:53 AM
Thinking, planning, and working in concert to kill also happens daily with wild canines. Wolves and African Hunting Dogs come to mind. Now, where do we get our modern canines from? Ah yes, wolves. Assuming or asserting that animals do not do such things because they do not plan or work together on the same level of sophistication as humans do is silly.

TXGunNut
June 24, 2011, 09:07 PM
Had to "retrain" a neighbor's dog tonight. A couple I know came over to look at another neighbor's horses and a big dog came running over, barking and growling. I drew, yelled and it turned but it came back again with another big dog. I drew again and put a .380 bullet at the lead dog's forefeet, pelting it with dirt clods. They went home. :D Funny part was I only stopped briefly mid-sentence to conduct the "training" and then continued the conversation. My little dog didn't seem at all concerned, just went about his business. Friend was kinda surprised but his wife seemed quite relieved.

jhenry
June 25, 2011, 08:07 AM
I have given quite a few dogs a surprise like that. It does work. Another trick to use on an annoying dog, but not yet to the attack point, is to simply stoop a bit and pick up a rock. You can even pretend to pick up a rock if one is not available, they are not bright enough to tell the difference. Most any loose country dog has been rocked a time or two and have found it to be unpleasant. They will skedaddle and quick. If not, go to plan B. I do not advocate stooping to get a rock with a clearly aggressive dog in close quarters, this would be silly.

I am very surprised a dog thread has remained open this long, they usually devolve into nonsense posts and get locked.

TXGunNut
June 25, 2011, 08:54 AM
I'm lousy @ throwing rocks, jhenry. And these dogs were getting a bit close so I wouldn't want to tie up my strong hand with throwing duties, ineffective as they would be. If I didn't like dogs so much I wouldn't bother with warning shots, hauling them off is a bit tiresome as well.

FrontSight
June 28, 2011, 03:54 PM
Dear Jerry,

Animals (that do not have a developed brain telling themselves that they are something else) does not have a perception as "joy of killing."
They kill only in these circumstances:

1. They need food, and you are of size that they instinctively estimate as prey.
2. They feel that, themselves or their offspring are under threat.

Children and elderly or sick, can sometimes seem as prey to wild animals, but I very much suspect this situation can occur regarding dogs, unless they have somehow did this before. (hunting and eating human, by some bizarre incident)

Dogs are very much domesticated animals that have been living among humans for so long time, that, to put it simply: They know us...
They know that we can not be their meal of choice...
We are big, and we fight back...

To summarize:
They have no perception as joy of killing, they know we fight back, so the only logical explanation is that, if they behave aggressively it means they feel a threat from us.
I am only suggesting that, "you have to show that you are not a threat".
In most cases, this will simply do the trick.

On the other hand, irregularities and as mentioned before bizarre encounters sometimes happen, but to talk about them would be nothing more than speculating.

All the best



Um, wow. All I can say is that, as others have pointed out, you are very, very dead wrong. And that is saying it nicely.

ExMP
July 14, 2011, 06:00 PM
2 years ago, our then neighbors had a pit bull. It was rarely chained up, but stayed in its own yard mostly.

Out of the blue, I hear my son (then 10) let out a blood-curdling scream. He came running around the corner, dog hot on his heels. I sprang forward (pretty good for an old fat guy) and got between them, punching as hard as I could, clipping the dog in the right eye. It kept trying to get around me to bite my son. I reached in my pocket and got out my 3" easy open pocket knife, and started stabbing. I stabbed and slashed until the dog was dead. Freakishly, I had no bite wounds, lightspeed fat man.

My wife had called the police, who arrived just as the owners deigned to notice that their dog was lying in a pool of blood....in my yard. Dude came out of his house with a baseball bat, ready to do me in. Needless to say, he was drawn on and arrested. Animal Control arrived and scooped up the dog for testing, thankfully, no rabies. These neighbors left very soon after. I guess watching me clean my collection on the front porch had some impact after I had received many a death stare.

Dogs are not safe, no matter what you think. There is something, anything out there that could be their impetus to go postal. Heck, my brother has a rottweiler that will chew your hand off if you say "B*tch", no clue why.

IMHO, on your property being aggressive, kill them. On your farm, kill them, don't wait for lost livestock.

Oh, the neighbors also received $4000 in Animal Control citations. No insurance, no fence, no license, no warning signs and some others. They didn't think they needed any of that stuff, as "Fluffy" was the sweetest thing ever.

DRBoyle
July 15, 2011, 08:42 AM
That's a hair raising experience ExMP. Something someone else mentioned earlier about fine motor skills being effected ties into using the knife. Sure it would have been better to have that loaded gun. The thing is if you had been caught off guard to the point of losing fine motor skills that simpler stabbing motion might be your last and best bet. The overall point is that people should at the very least have the right to access firearms as part of a range of tools they can use. Need it be said that the firearm isn't the thermonuclear device the anti's want us to believe. Good to read you and your son came out unscathed by that experience.

BUFF
July 15, 2011, 04:26 PM
The only thing worse than a pack of dogs roaming around looking for trouble is a pack of people roaming around looking for trouble.

Dogs on the prowl looking to attack get zero sympathy or a second thought from me. If you or your loved ones are being attacked...let the lead fly. Get as many as you can. Stand your ground and fight like a banshee. I like dogs, but I will put one down quick. If your neighbors come over to yell at you for killing their "big sweetie", tell em you're gonna whip their @$$ too for letting it happen.:mad:

Glenn E. Meyer
July 15, 2011, 05:20 PM
Coming in late to this conversation but the motivations of animals has been incorrectly analyzed by some who claim that that animals don't aggress except for prey or threat.

There is a large body of evidence that animals that have been subject to aggression will attack other animals in a displaced aggression. So if any animal had a bad day and runs into you, it can attack you. Big books and articles on it. Neuroscience of the effect has been worked out.

For examples, young elephants who have been dissed by the boss elephant will go find a rhino and kill it.

SRH78
July 15, 2011, 07:27 PM
Dogs and people are far more alike than many care to admit.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 15, 2011, 07:30 PM
My old world mother-in-law told her daughters that Men and Dogs Walk the Same Path.

chadstrickland
July 15, 2011, 09:08 PM
dont enjoy shooting another persons pet at all...and wont do it normally unless im with some little bits ( kids ) and they start to attack im quick to put them down...but if im by myself or with people that can handle themselves then there isnt much a good kick or a big stick wont fix...owner would much rather have a living dog with a lump on its head than a dead one...and on the subject of wild dogs running around in a city...thats a scary thought...you are limited in your defence options ( cant have a m4 on your back )...maybe a knife or pistol....but i know out here in the country a coyot really aint all that to be afraid of..heck they normally break and run as soon as they hear you much less haul butt when they see you...the curious ones you have to look after...but what i do keep a sharp eye out for is a wild dog...there is a difference..a wild dog is not afraid of humans and wont normally run away..those you got to be careful with.....kill them as soon as you see them....to me the worst part is that if there in the city and you do have to shoot is that you best pray you have a good backstop....be a good time to have a smith and wesson governor ( im not buying a judge )

youngunz4life
July 15, 2011, 09:13 PM
and on a side note, sometimes a 'bad life' as one small example can leave an animal unable to be reinstated in society: they'll literally bite the hand off a child who goes near their food, so they must be euthanized. bottom line up front, there are many factors besides threats and prey.

I guess it's lots common sense anyways, as a younger, more unaware pup, dog, whatever might kill someone while just playing & possibly not meaning any harm(especially with his/her buddies).

BlackFeather
July 15, 2011, 09:21 PM
I've been attacked by far too many dogs to believe some of the ideas here. I have had a dog jump a six foot fence to charge me. Another dog pushed through a wooden fence and managed to put my thigh in it's mouth, I was protecting a younger female friend at the time so I was vulnerable. Lowering yourself to a threatening dog is suicide, as was mentioned. You are far better off moving forward in a threatening manner, but only if it's moving towards you. At a distance guns are the best bet, obviously. Sprays will deter most domesticated animals but I would bet that rabid or starving animals are going to respond differently.

I personally believe that contact weapons are better for dealing with dogs because they are going to be on you faster than most people realize. Sticks, canes, and knives seem best. For the older gentlemen I'd suggest a metal cane along with a decent fixed blade. Preferably as an addition to a gun. Knives and Machetes are tools, along with hammer, hatchets, and axes. You can have a Machete in a park, contrary to popular belief.

Feral animals are hungry, domesticated animals are territorial and looking for a fight, diseased animals are reacting to a threat, YOU. Not all animals with Rabies are aggressive, learn the signs and you could save someone. Last time I dealt with it the police didn't bother helping, so I solved it myself.

I hate to sound like I know it all, because I don't, I just didn't see much clarification in this thread, and a few stupid ideas.

BGutzman
July 15, 2011, 09:22 PM
When I was stationed in Central America my ex wife had family that apparently felt the best way to make a good guard dog was to have non family members kick it every time they came by.

Poor dog apparently got kicked daily from the time it was a puppy. I knew nothing about it except the dog was slobbery wet trying to bite anyone and everyone that was not a part of the immediate family that my ex grew up with.

One day they moved the dog and I had no idea, I walked past a tree and felt motion from the left and I stepped to the right and the dog ripped the top part of my jeans pocket just slightly as I was at the end of his length of chain. (I had no idea he was there and he didnt growl or anything else prior, maybe he had been alseep, I frankly dont know)

I had no firearms in country and I bought a container of mace and a neck knife. (after this event)

I also explained to my ex wifes family my great concern if my young kids or a neighbors kids were attacked by this dog he would tear them apart, then I got the guard dog story.

From this time forward I kept my mace keychain in my hand when we were at her parents, sure enough one day the dog got off the chain and went after me and my kids while we were getting in my car and I hit that poor dog with a perfect shot of mace in the face at about 3 1/2 feet and a side kick to boot as my kids scrambled to get in the car.

The dog was stunned just enough that I was able to get in my car and backup with a furry of growling.

The dog had to be taken to the vet and on principal alone I refused to pay her family for the charges. From that day forward the dog was kept in the far back part of the yard when my family was around..

I love dogs so it pained me deeply and the dog was not in control of what the humans had done to it but I still had to protect myself and my family...

OkieGentleman
July 20, 2011, 07:35 PM
Get yourself several cans of wasp spray. Have them handy by the door so when you go out they are there, do not leave in a hot car. No one can complain about you having a can of wasp spray on you, no matter where you go. Keep it in a shopping bag. Just say you are deathly allergic to wasp stings if asked.

The jet spray shoots 25 to 35 ft, you can wave it around like a water hose and any dogs behind the lead dogs will get a good nose full even if you do not hit them with it. It is poison and you might actually put down some of the blasted animals or at least teach them not to have a go at old men.

Never scare an old man, he will just kill you and be done with it!!

I,m 67 and had two strokes recently. I am not going to stand and let you beat on me without some response.

When my youngest brother was about 2 we lived in the country. I walked out on the back porch one summer day and saw on old black hound stalking the child. When I yelled,the dog stopped, growled at me and crouched like it was going to jump at me. I yelled again and it moved away and ran behind some of the cars parked by the house. I grabbed the rifle by the door and chambered a round and as it ran between two of the cars I shot. It made it to the end of the drive before it died of one 22 LR thru the heart. I should not have taken the shot, but it worked out ok.

Wag
July 20, 2011, 08:28 PM
Fightingbard,

You demonstrate an extreme lack of experience with dogs in packs. Whoever deigns to follow your assumptions are going to get killed. You speak as if you have some ideas you believe but do not have knowledge of such things. I hate to be rude or blunt and it's rare that I'll take that approach but you do not know what you're talking about.

I grew up with a great many dogs on the farm. At any given time, we always had at least 10 or 15 dogs on the premises, the varying numbers were because once in a while, they'd tree a cougar or some damn thing and a couple of them would get killed. Regardless, once the bloodlust is upon them, they are completely unpredictable but GENERALLY SPEAKING, they will not back off for very many reasons. The sound of a pack of dogs fighting a mountain lion or even a raccoon is blood chilling and terrifying and be assured, there is very little you can do to stop them.

One thing I have seen on occasion is that if you shoot ONE of the dogs and you don't kill it, ie, it is wounded and yelping, the remaining dogs in the pack will OCCASIONALLY turn on the wounded dog and kill it instead of you. This generally is only effective if they are still a ways off. On OCCASSION, the sound of the gunshot is enough to stop them in their tracks but only if they are familiar with the sound of a gun and what that could mean to them.

It's useless to speculate on the probable motivations of the dogs in the pack. Nobody will ever be able to say what gets them started or what keeps them going. Smell of blood? Frenzy of the dog mob? They can't tell us. There are probably many "reasons" (if you can even say that a dog has any reasoning ability at all) or causes. But we will never know. It's enough to know that they can and will become killers and the underlying, driving force cannot be reckoned.

I've seen dogs attack cattle, deer, cougars, skunks, porcupines, cats, bobcats, raccoons, etc. etc. It's never a pretty sight and frankly, with all the stories I've read about dogs attacking humans, I fail to see that their behavior is different. That is to say, a dog pack attacking a human is not concerned about being their best friend and they are there to kill. Instinct, I expect, is the driving force in a pack attack but I can't say for certain, nor do I believe anyone is able to do so.

We had some small success with spraying ammonia into a dog's face to get them to back down and come to their senses. If the bear spray works, go for it. Pepper spray, mace, etc. have reportedly had some success. Guns are what I would consider to be the more ideal solution and I agree that shotguns, pump especially, are going to be very effective.

--Wag--

Buzzcook
July 20, 2011, 09:46 PM
For many years dead seals have washed up on beaches. They appear to have been killed by blunt force trauma. Boats are the obvious possibility, except that there are multiple areas of bruising. Someone finally observed the cause. Porpoises were killing them and not for food. They gave the appearance that they did it simply for fun. There own version of a blood sport.

Top predators kill other top predators. It isn't mindless blood sport.

thallub
July 20, 2011, 10:20 PM
It is fashionable in this part of OK to take unwanted dogs out into the country and turn them loose. The dogs that are not killed by the coyotes and hogs often attack livestock and sometimes, people. Our sheriff's dep't does not have a dog warden. This county is larger than the state of RI. We take care feral dogs ourselves and our sheriff encourages that.

i've killed several dogs that were threatening livestock. i hunt a lot and have been attacked by feral dogs several times; once by a pack of five dogs: i killed all those dogs with my SKS. Last time i was attacked was in 2008: The dog was a huge Samoyed: It came after me while i was opening a gate. Got back into the truck, capped my muzzleloader and killed that dog.

If i find a dog chasing deer or livestock, it is a dead dog, collar or not.

bigkrackers
July 20, 2011, 10:39 PM
I didn't read every post in this thread so hopefully this all isn't a repeat.

If it were me, I would have multiple layers of defense. I would get a big walking stick made from good quality hardwood. I would carry a double stack auto in a caliber I'm very comfortable with and practice a lot. I would also carry some form of mace but in a stream form not fog. Any defense spray that fogs or mists would not be a good option as you will almost always get some blown back at you and unless you have practiced fighting through getting a face full of the stuff it will do more harm than good.

Anyway you cut it, with a multiple dog attack, (unless you have a shotgun or auto rifle) you are probably going to end up on the ground at some point. I'd carry a good fixed blade hunting knife as well now that I think about it. Nothing too long, maybe 3 to 4 in.

I would then practice what and how I would use each weapon in multiple attack scenarios making sure everything is within easy reach and can be used effectively.

mordis
July 21, 2011, 09:07 AM
Fightingboard i assume you live somewere else other then the usa, where dogs are very common. Some of what say does not hold up. Dogs do attack for no reason, how else do you explain pitbull attacks? Family dog, well cared for, non abused suddenly turns on a kid or adult for no reason that can be found.
I love pitbulls, and hate that there demonized, but not even on pitbull chat forum can they or will they even begine try and explain the odd attacks that happen with legit pits.

Now i have a theroy about pitbull attacks, at least the ones were the dog actually was a pitbull and not another breed that closely resembles one. Part of my theroy is breeding, i think poorly breed dogs, like most dogs that come from back yard breeders, are more prone to mental issues.

My advice, is dont shoot bully breeds, and mastif breeds(if dangerous and feral toyou that is) in the head. My FIL is a vet, and has shot many animals, and says that those breeds heads due to there shape round and sloping(bully breeds like pits) and the size shape and thickness of the mastif breeds heads, your bullet may or may not penetrate there skull. There are plenty of stories on the net about owners whose pit tried to stop a home invasion and got shot in the head by the intruder only to have the bullet exit out the bottom of there nex, with no dmg to the dog. My suggestion is aim for the chest or shoulder or side if possible. If not aim for the nose area.

Lastly there are companies that can add better sights to your j frame revolvers, i suggest looking in to that.

Buzzcook
July 21, 2011, 12:28 PM
The web browser Firefox has a spell check feature that works in Internet posting. Doesn't help with homophones but better than nothing.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 04:10 PM
Dogs do attack for no reason, how else do you explain pitbull attacks? Family dog, well cared for, non abused suddenly turns on a kid or adult for no reason that can be found.
I love pitbulls, and hate that there demonized, but not even on pitbull chat forum can they or will they even begine try and explain the odd attacks that happen with legit pits.No animal attacks for no reason and dogs don't suddenly turn for no reason. "Family dog, well cared for.. blah blah blah" What do you expect people to say? Do you expect them to admit they raised an aggressive dog? Do you expect them to admit they have been fighting the dog? Of course not. They are going to lie their butt off. We hear the same thing all the time from the friends and family or violent criminals all the time. Think about the kid that gets in a dogs face and gets bit. You will be told he was just suddenly attacked for no reason when in fact, his behavior led to him getting bit. How about the dog that the neighbors kids throw rocks at or shoot bb guns at? I can't imagine why it would become aggressive.

People who honestly believe dogs attack for no reason, simply do not understand the reasons. Every single thing dogs, people, or anything else does is for a reason.

Btw, dogs are not at all unpredictable. They are an open book if you bother to read them. I have been around all sorts of dogs, with and without the owners present. I used to have to go into yards many times a day with nobody home. I have been back there with Pitts, Rotts, Mastiffs, Dobys, Shepards, Akitas, Huskys, Labs, Chows, Elkhounds, you name it. Not one of them was unpredictable and not one did anything for no reason. I got called many times by other crews because they couldn't get into a yard because there were "aggressive" dogs there. Nearly every time, I got into the yard with no problem. A very few times I didn't but those dogs weren't unpredictable either.

I once showed up and there were 5 or 6 guys trying to just walk right into the yard. Their logic was that the dog wouldn't let them back there because it was a pit and it was mean. How would any of you react to strange men trying to force their way into your home? Would you smile and say hi? Of course not. The dog saw them as a threat and understandably so. I made them leave, then spent a few minutes letting the dog get to know me and showing it that I wasn't a threat. 5 minutes later all the guys were back there and to their suprise, the dog was very friendly and wanted to play with everybody.

Many times dogs end up aggressive because of how they are raised. Many times, they are assumed to be aggressive because the victim is clueless.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 04:24 PM
Btw, all the hype about pitts is a bunch of crap. I have been around plenty of them and when raised by a responsible owner, they are less likely than most breeds to attack someone, mostly because they are much less likely to bite out of fear. Ask yourself this. Why do a higher percentage of Glocks end up used in crimes as compared to X-frame Smiths?

It is because of the type of people who own them and the same is true of dogs.

Come and take it.
July 21, 2011, 04:33 PM
Why do people choose a pitbull or a Rottweiller for a pet over other dogs? What attributes do they have over other dogs?

They are poorly lacking in the cute department. They have average hunting skills. A genetically inherited tendency to be more aggressive and violent (it's scientifically proven)

My conclusion is that most people who choose to own a pitbull or rottweiller specifically are likely to also be ones who want an agressive fighting dog for some reason.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 05:08 PM
Why do people choose a pitbull or a Rottweiller for a pet over other dogs? What attributes do they have over other dogs?The single best behaved, most loyal, and most intelligent animal I have ever been around was my Rott. Last I checked, those were good reasons. They are also very alert and very good at protecting their owners. I would expect someone who is pro second amendment to understand that. My neighbors always loved my Rott, even the ones who were afraid of him at first. Want to know why they loved having him around? It is because they didn't have to worry about their kids ending up on the news. Any hand laid on one of "his" kids would have been removed in a hurry. He watched over those kids like a hawk. My lab on the other hand is a sweet dog, well behaved, and great at retrieving birds, but would be completely worthless in a situation where a protective dog was needed.


They are poorly lacking in the cute department. They have average hunting skills. A genetically inherited tendency to be more aggressive and violent (it's scientifically proven)I couldn't disagree more. Both are good looking dogs, particularly Rotts. Besides, does a dog have to be a hunter to be a family pet now? Maybe you shouldn't own a rifle or handgun unless it is only used for hunting? As far as aggression, there are many breeds that are more aggressive than Rotts and Pitts. A properly raised Pitt is one of the sweetest dogs you will ever be around. Rotts are typically more wary and less trusting of strangers but wary and aggressive are two different things. My Rott was actually a very affectionate dog. Actually much more so than my Lab.


My conclusion is that most people who choose to own a pitbull or rottweiller specifically are likely to also be ones who want an agressive fighting dog for some reason. Not at all, but the types of people you are reffering to are indeed more likely to choose a Pitt or a Rott. I made that statement already. If you get rid of those breeds, those same people will pick a new breed and it will develop the same bad reputation.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 05:11 PM
He also kept my ATV and my neighbor's truck from being stolen as well as my grandparent's house from being broken into. He also broke up a fight at the neighbor's house and didn't bite anyone in the process. That was the only time he ever left the yard on his own even though he could have easily gotten out anytime he wanted to. He didn't stay in the yard because he couldn't get out. He stayed in the yard because that is what I expected from him. I ended up with my lab because he needed a good home, otherwise, I would absolutely have another Rott right now.

In case you are wondering, he was also very good with other dogs.

AK103K
July 21, 2011, 05:41 PM
The single best behaved, most loyal, and most intelligent animal I have ever been around was my Rott.
Weve had Rotties for over 20 years now, and wont have another breed. Everything SRH78 said above is dead on. They are just big, very "family" oriented babies, and are great around kids.

The only time their demeanor changes, is if you dont behave, or do anything they percieve as aggressive towards the family, and especially the wife or kids. Do that, and they will step right up and deal with you without hesitation.

My conclusion is that most people who choose to own a pitbull or rottweiller specifically are likely to also be ones who want an agressive fighting dog for some reason.
The only people who have them for that reason, are abusing their dogs, and should be fed to them as far as Im concerned. What your comment sounds like to me, is experience learned from sensational TV news, and not from first hand experience with a family pet and protector.

I know people who have Pits as family pets, and they are sweet dogs too. Any dog can be abused to the point of being dangerous, and Ive had many encounters and bites/attempted bites, from more little furry yappy dogs, than I ever had from the bigger breeds.

Catfishman
July 21, 2011, 06:01 PM
Many people have had good luck with Pitbulls and Rottweilers. Some people haven't, and aren't around to talk about it. To say that they present no problem is wrong. Those two breeds have killed many people, especially children, and are one of the reasons people carry pistols in rural areas.

Any dog can be unpredictable and hurt someone. These two can easily kill.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 06:30 PM
Many people have had good luck with Pitbulls and Rottweilers. Some people haven't, and aren't around to talk about it. To say that they present no problem is wrong. Those two breeds have killed many people, especially children, and are one of the reasons people carry pistols in rural areas.

Any dog can be unpredictable and hurt someone. These two can easily kill. Many people have been killed by handguns and aren't around to talk about it. Does that make your handgun dangerous and unpredictable? Maybe, just maybe handguns are only dangerous in the wrong hands. What a concept. :eek: Spend some time around a properly raised Rott or Pitt and you will see what they are really like.

I will say it again. Anyone who believes dogs are unpredictable, simply doesn't understand them. They are far more predictable than people are.

SRH78
July 21, 2011, 06:33 PM
Any dog can be abused to the point of being dangerous, and Ive had many encounters and bites/attempted bites, from more little furry yappy dogs, than I ever had from the bigger breeds. Absolute truth right here.

Catfishman
July 21, 2011, 06:51 PM
Many people have been killed by handguns and aren't around to talk about it. Does that make your handgun dangerous and unpredictable?

My handgun doesn't act on it's own. It doesn't crash through screen doors, jump fences and attack children.

I've always wondered why of all of the wonderful breeds of dogs anyone would want one that is as potentially deadly as a Pitbull.

AK103K
July 21, 2011, 08:05 PM
Dogs are only as dangerous as they are made, just like people. We are all just animals after all.

If you program your kid to be a killer, they will be the best they can be, just to please you, and do so with no remorse. Dogs are no different.

Anything and everything can be potentially dangerous. If you havent owned a "normal" Pit or Rottie, then what are you basing your opinions on? Obviously, not personal experience. Again, it sounds more like a dramatic, hyped up TV news spot. Oh, the humanity! Weve got to do something about these gun owners..., oops, I mean DOG owners. ;)

DougU
July 21, 2011, 08:18 PM
I have to call B.S by the people trying to defend all dogs. We just had a case (in iowa) where the grandparents pitbulls mauled and killed a toddler which was obviously no threat to the dogs. The animals in question had no history of attack or violent behavior; they simply killed a child because they could. I also knew a sliver german shepard that my uncle had. The dog never showed any abnormal behavior but he attacked my cousin one day when he came home from school for no reason. If any of my dogs ever did something like that , I would kill them myself. Domesticated.....or not, they are still canines and will act like their wild counterparts!:mad:

Alaska444
July 21, 2011, 08:28 PM
Guns don't shoot on their own, dogs on the other hand make their own way without human intervention as needed for a handgun. Although folks can dispute WHY one breed of mutt over another is more dangerous, the facts are clear, Pitts and Rotts are the most dangerous dogs in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

If you spend a bit of time to go down the known list, venture to see how many people killed by dogs are killed by the FAMILY pet. Anyone that has one of these mutts is asking for trouble at some point just based on the qualities bred into these mutts.

BlackFeather
July 21, 2011, 08:32 PM
I have to call B.S by the people trying to defend all dogs. We just had a case (in iowa) where the grandparents pitbulls mauled and killed a toddler which was obviously no threat to the dogs. The animals in question had no history of attack or violent behavior; they simply killed a child because they could. I also knew a sliver german shepard that my uncle had. The dog never showed any abnormal behavior but he attacked my cousin one day when he came home from school for no reason. If any of my dogs ever did something like that , I would kill them myself. Domesticated.....or not, they are still canines and will act like their wild counterparts!

And the reason a person should have a dog is for it's abilities as an animal, not for looks. People that like pretty dogs, usually can't handle them. In fact, most spoiled dogs, especially the small ones, are more likely to bite. My ex was a dog groomer, and I helped bathe them at times. The big dogs bit less than the small dogs.

As far as your cousin being attacked, were you there? Was your uncle? Kids lie, especially when they know they did something wrong.

AK103K
July 21, 2011, 08:53 PM
I have to call B.S by the people trying to defend all dogs.
Its not "all" dogs, nor is it even "all" of the bad and scary dogs. Just like there are bad people, there are bad dogs, bad cats, bad squrriels, bad.... whatever scares you the most. And please, dont even go near bad klowns. Thats my breaking point.

....the facts are clear, Pitts and Rotts are the most dangerous dogs in America
Naw, Chiwawa's are the scariest dogs on the planet. Just a hairless rat on acid sitting on that old ladys boob just giving you that "look". You know whats next.....:D


In all the years Ive owned Rotties, and known people who own Rotties, and all of us have kids, and most of us more than one (dogs and kids). Ive never had a kid mauled or attacked by one, mine or friends. The kids do have to learn the way of the pack though, at least until they earn their place in the pecking order. The dogs tend to get bigger faster than the kids, and its always an entertaining few years as they grow up together. Then again, we live with our dogs. I suppose non Rottie people just dont understand. But then again, how could they, they have no experience with them to know. They all seem to have a boat load of horror stories though.

Guns don't shoot on their own.....
You must be new around here. There are a lot of people here who seem to think Glocks do all the time.

Dont worry, I have a bunch of them too, and like the Rotties, they arent as scary once you actually own and handle them. :D

Alaska444
July 21, 2011, 09:00 PM
Naw, Chiwawa's are the scariest dogs on the planet. Just a hairless rat on acid sitting on that old ladys boob just giving you that "look". You know whats next.....

Sorry, I didn't see them on the list of fatal dog attacks. Why are so many people killed by their own dogs which just happen to be Rotts and Pits? Perhaps they have the Rotts and Pits to protect them against the really dangerous chiwawas above and the get confused and just eat their owners instead.

AK103K
July 21, 2011, 09:30 PM
Maybe thats it. ;)

Maybe, the people that own the dogs that killed, were people who shouldnt have the dog, or any other item that "may" be dangerous if misused/mistreated.

Also, in the whole scheme of things, the total number (over 20 years yet) of people killed by dogs is minuscule compared to many if not most other causes of death.

Catfishman
July 21, 2011, 09:34 PM
I suppose non Rottie people just dont understand. But then again, how could they, they have no experience with them to know. They all seem to have a boat load of horror stories though.



I don't understand a Grizzly bear and I don't want one next door.

Yes, strange everyone has a boatload of horror stories. The stories include real people. I don't care if these people understood the vicious dogs that injured/killed them.

This isn't one in a million stuff either.

1 A Pitbull that belongs to a friend of mine attacked a small child a couple months ago. It grabbed her by the head and shook her until my friends father beat it with a hammer.

2 A Rottweiler attacked a lady I go to church with a couple of years ago. She was over at a friends house and was the last one on the way in from the car. The dog was quickly shot and killed by the owner. But, not before half killing a woman who was in late 50s. She had to have many surgeries and was left with missing fingers, scars and permanent nerve damage.

How many people do I personally know? A thousand? Five hundred? I dunno. Just think how many innocent people these animals injure/kill every year, nationally.

I enforce a very simple policy when one of these animals lays a paw on my property.

Catfishman
July 21, 2011, 09:47 PM
Also, in the whole scheme of things, the total number (over 20 years yet) of people killed by dogs is minuscule compared to many if not most other causes of death.

I read on DogsBite.org that 52 Americans were killed by Pitbulls during the years '06, '07 and '08.

Miniscule?

This is a very real problem and until laws are changed, it is a very good reason to have a firearm around.

Alaska444
July 21, 2011, 09:47 PM
Dog attacks are attacks on humans by feral or domestic dogs. With the close association of dogs and humans in daily life (largely as pets), dog attacks—with injuries from very minor to significant, and severe to fatal—are not uncommon. Attacks on the serious end of the spectrum have become the focus of increasing media and public attention in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.[2] It is estimated that two percent of the US population, 4.7 million people, are bitten each year.[3] In the 1980s and 1990s the US averaged 17 fatalities per year, while in the 2000s this has increased to 26.[4] 77% of dog bites are from the pet of family or friends, and 50% of attacks occur on the dog owner's property.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_attack

Nearly 5 million folks are attacked in the US alone, that is NOT a small number even if the number that die is a relatively small number.

Personally, I don't remember ever seeing a pit or Rotty growing up and it seems like that is all that we see now in so many areas. The fact that nearly 80% of fatal attacks come from family pets most often being a Rot or Pit is not the least comforting. If folks wish to wonder WHY, so be it. But mitigating the clear evidence gets us no where.

Let's look at it from another angle:

Why are the majority of fatal dog attacks from two breeds of dogs, Pits and Rots? Isn't that the real question at hand?

AK103K
July 21, 2011, 10:11 PM
I read on DogsBite.org that 52 Americans were killed by Pitbulls during the years '06, '07 and '08.

Miniscule?

Compared to a lot of things, and over three years, yea, 52 is a minuscule number.

This is a very real problem and until laws are changed...
Now youre starting on that slippery slope. Might as well put your gun in the list too, dont you think.

Nearly 5 million folks are attacked in the US alone, that is NOT a small number even if the number that die is a relatively small number.

Personally, I don't remember ever seeing a pit or Rotty growing up
Now thats a nice piece of manipulation there, including the Pits and Rotties in with the 5 million thing in the same breath.

As with most breeds that become "popular", the breed tends to degrade as people try to cash in on it. You loose the "quality" of the breed in the quest for quantity. Go back and look a the trends and I think youll find an increase in problems just like you see with the Pits and Rotties now. Collies, Shepherds, Dobies, Huskies, Labs, etc, all suffered (and still suffer) from being popular. Add to that, people who should not own a dog(and probably shouldnt have kids either), wanting to be cool and have what all their friends have, just make it worse. The best thing that could happen to the Pits and Rotties, is they drop off the popular list.

Why are the majority of fatal dog attacks from two breeds of dogs, Pits and Rots?
Just like gun deaths, in most cases, the fault of the owner.

Were really not talking "big" numbers here either.

603Country
July 21, 2011, 10:15 PM
SRH78 mentioned that no dog attacks for no reason, and also said a few other things along those lines. That actually may be a true statement, in that dogs have some reason to do what they do, but go back a few pages and read what happened to me. The dogs might have had some reason to act toward me the way they did, but it was nothing that I did, and their reasoning wasn't transmitted to me prior to the attack. All that happened, and happened very quickly, was that I showed up and they made aggressive movements toward me. Luckily, I was armed, or I might not be typing this. Basically, the fact here is that I don't care why they attacked, be it a good reason or a bad reason. They attempted to put teeth on me and I shot them (most of them). And let me restate my feelings on this. I do not care what their reasoning was, and I think I speak for anyone that has been attacked or seriously threatened.

Deja vu
July 21, 2011, 10:21 PM
I like german shepherds but I think a rott or a pit would make a good guard dog.

What is wrong with having a big dog to "guard" your house? I don't have any thing against Collies or Datamations but they do not have the same intimidation factor as some other breeds that are better suited (even if only by reputation) for guarding you or your home and family.

Don't tell me animals don't ever kill for the fun of it. I have seen whats left after a small pack of wolves kill and entire flock of sheep. They eat what they can but they don't all ways stop killing when they are full.

I have seen cats kill mice and just leave them.

Catfishman
July 21, 2011, 11:20 PM
Compared to a lot of things, and over three years, yea, 52 is a minuscule number.

You're kidding right?

We're talking human deaths from one breed of dog.

Compared to what? Cancer, car accidents?

The point is that 52 people died that didn't have too. And countless suffering and injuries.

Pitbulls and Rottweilers:

Cost - Dozens of innocent people being mauled to death every year.
Benefit - Hell if I know?
Solution - Better laws, till then, reliable handguns.

bigkrackers
July 21, 2011, 11:20 PM
About eight years ago I was living in some apartments and I was walking to my car along the narrow concrete path from the front of the apartment doors to the covered carport when my new upstairs neighbor was walking the same path from the carport to the apartments. She was a very attractive, very athletic, petite woman in her 20's. No more than 5'4" and maybe 100 lbs. She was being walked by an adult rott that probably had 30lbs over her if not more. As I passed them on the narrow path the dog reached up and clamped down on my forearm. Now I'm sure in the dog's mind I had done something to warrant this behavior but as this little, tiny woman is failing miserably at trying to pull the dog off all I could think about was why on earth do you own this dog? You can't possible control a dog of this size. I mean look, he's using my arm as a chew toy and you can't even get the dog's head to move when you yank on his chain.

Anyway, I jammed my thumb in it's left eye and it let me go and I only have a small scar left today but I would have to say that in a lot of these pit and rottie attacks, any dog attack for that matter, the owners are mostly to blame for not understanding what kind of dog they have and what special care is needed for the breed.

Every breed is different and while you might be a dog person that doesn't mean you should own any dog you want.

Anyway, back to the OP's question, multiple layer defense is your best option. Don't rely on just a gun in this situation.

MLeake
July 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
Catfishman, during that same three years, how many people died due to alcohol or tobacco?

Cost: easily six figures worth of lives.

Benefit: a buzz?

Solution: do you really want to legislate everything?

Wag
July 21, 2011, 11:50 PM
In my prior post, I mentioned that we always had 10 or 15 dogs at any given time. We never once had a Rottweiler or Pit Bull or any other supposedly aggressive breed except for the one year we had a German Shepherd which, I might add, was pretty decent as a farm dog. That is, he wasn't any more or less aggressive than any of our other mutts.

Those mutts were actually as vicious or moreso than the so called "aggressive breeds" all y'all are talking about.

Domesticated breeds are only vicious if you raise them that way. There is nothing wrong with Rotts or Pits or other mastiffs, Dobies or Shepherds. If you raise them gentle, they will always be gentle.

Likewise, the mutts like we had can be pretty frightening. We never abused ours but they didn't get a lot of hands on loving and they defended their territories with a vengeance.

Which was fine with us, living out in the boonies like we did.

--Wag--

JohnKSa
July 21, 2011, 11:51 PM
There are places on the web to discuss the relative merits of dog breeds but TFL ain't it.

That's all for this one although it stayed more or less on topic more than most dog threads.