PDA

View Full Version : What's The Point Behind This Stance?


Single Six
June 7, 2011, 02:01 PM
No, I don't mean that rhetorically. For the past few years I've noticed photos in many of the gun mags of people using this odd stance that I just don't understand. Since I don't know how to post pics, I'll describe it: The shooter is either drawing, or has already drawn, his sidearm. His other arm is held out in front of him parallel to the ground, elbow bent, with the hand flat against the side of his head. I also see knife guys like Michael Janich using this same positioning. Can someone please explain the purpose of this peculiar-looking stance to me, and also: How many of you guys use it yourselves?

InTheCountry
June 7, 2011, 02:24 PM
Go to the site where you see the picture copy the browser and then paste it in your thread so we can see clearly

MLeake
June 7, 2011, 02:29 PM
Elbow out forward, arm bent, hand against head sounds like a blocking position for an incoming punch. Without knowing the context of the stance the OP saw, I'd guess it might have been from a discussion of drawing while fending off an attack.

I've read some instructors' advice about keeping the support hand against the stomach, during the draw, to keep it out of the path of the muzzle until the gun is pushed forward by the strong hand, but I haven't read about the pose described by the OP.

I have used that position to pass a fist by my face, though.

45Gunner
June 7, 2011, 03:51 PM
The position you described is classic defense posturing to fend off the hostile from making a grab for the gun.

If one is going to shoot with one hand, the other hand is placed upon the chest to keep it out of the way so the shooter does not inadvertently shoot himself in the non-shooting hand.

Mudinyeri
June 7, 2011, 04:26 PM
Maybe something like the guy facing us in the photo below?

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/self-defense-and-the-law.jpg

Single Six
June 7, 2011, 04:32 PM
Actually, in all of the pics I've seen of people using this pose, nowhere in the the article {or the caption} was an explanation of it offered. In The Country: No can do; like I said, I've seen this in magazines, not on the computer, and even if I could find it on the web, I'm a barely-functional illiterate when it comes to computers. The posting pics thing is beyond me. :o Mleake and 45Gunner: I think you both just answered my question. Thanks!

Single Six
June 7, 2011, 04:33 PM
Mudinyeri: Yes, very similar, except the non-shooting hand was higher up, very close to or even touching the side of the shooter's head.

MLeake
June 7, 2011, 04:58 PM
The picture Mudinyeri posted looks like it should be an "after" shot; the guy with the pipe is holding it right-handed, so in his current position he would probably have just swung and missed.

The shooter's arm would probably be broken if he'd actually blocked in that position. Not to mention, his arm is below his head, so he'd have probably been hit in the head, too.

To deflect that pipe, one would want to meet it with the arm up but retreating, rotating inward at contact, all while bending the knees and ducking the body; this would pass the pipe safely over the head while taking minimal impact to the arm. (A parry, rather than a block, and yes it works.... if you practice a whole lot.)

Note: body movement is critical. If the deflection itself doesn't work, but your head is several inches or a foot lower, the pipe might miss anyway. NEVER count on a block or parry to work, on its own.

Erik
June 7, 2011, 11:49 PM
"What's The Point Behind This Stance?"

It is a default position intended for protecting the head from incoming blows.

Kevin Rohrer
June 7, 2011, 11:52 PM
Since we are all taught to use 2-hands (which in this picture would be a bad idea), the weak hand held high and out-of-the-way is probably a technique taught when being forced by the picture's circumstance to use only one hand. In other words the shooter is conditioned when holding the pistol back against his body and out of club-reach to keep the supporting hand from attempting to grab the gun. Keeping that arm against the chest serves the same purpose.

I'd also comment that there are too many firearms "experts" out there trying to make a name for themselves by inventing new ways to position their hands and naming their new techniques after themselves. I can think of a couple experts who have carried this principle to an extreme (e.g. the Ayoob Method, the Taylor Method, etc).

I am greatly amused when I see Larry Vickers and his minions on the History Channel's Tactical Arms drawing their handguns, indexing them against their chests, then going into a firing position, firing, then re-indexing, and holstering. Too much hoopla for such a simple action. :rolleyes:

MLeake
June 8, 2011, 12:09 AM
Erik, see my post 8 to see why I don't think that default would have worked out so well.

Single Six
June 8, 2011, 06:11 AM
Kevin: That indexing-on-the-chest thing is something else I've noticed, and I completely agree..it does seem superfluous {my big vocabulary word for the day}.

ClayInTx
June 8, 2011, 08:07 AM
Yes, the indexing would be superfluous because it’s better to rotate your body clockwise or counter-clockwise, dependent upon your handedness, in the azimuth whilst you surreptitiously acquire manual possession of your defensive device and elevate it into the correct operational position.

Then blow him the hell away.

This is known as the Clay Technique. :mad:

Buzzcook
June 8, 2011, 12:24 PM
The guy with the pipe should already have a couple bullets in him. He's about two steps too close.

I appreciate the importance of protecting your head. But taking a big step backwards could achieve the same goal.

A note to people swinging pipes. people tend to underestimate distances. don't try to hit with the end of the pipe. hit about a third of the way from the end. Or use a gun:D

Old Grump
June 8, 2011, 12:39 PM
I appreciate the importance of protecting your head. But taking a big step backwards could achieve the same goal.
Stepping backward was always a no no unless you were absolutely sure of your footing. Stepping on something or tripping on something in a fight situation is the first sign that you are in deep doo doo. Raising your hand and arm might get it broke or cut but you keep your balance and can continue to fight with the other hand whether it's club, blade or gun....or spray can of your favorite deodorant, mace, spray, etc.

Shuffle to the side if you must, turn and run if you can, dance a jig if it will help but try not to step backwards.

Kevin Rohrer
June 8, 2011, 12:45 PM
The guy with the pipe should already have a couple bullets in him. He's about two steps too close.

Exactly. I "believe" that the idea behind the index maneuver I mentioned earlier is meant to be a conditioned response whenever you pull your weapon. Am guessing it was designed to overcome someone who has gotten too close and would grab your weapon if you drew and extended it in the classic Weaver/Isosceles stance.

Important Rule to Remember: Don't let the bad guy get that close in the first place.

Kevin Rohrer
June 8, 2011, 12:59 PM
Stepping backward was always a no no unless you were absolutely sure of your footing. Stepping on something or tripping on something in a fight situation is the first sign that you are in deep doo doo.

Yes.

Real world example: I went to a unfamiliar house on a call and upon walking up to it, met a BIG Rottweiler who was standing on its hind legs leaning on a bush, just like a person would lean on a fence. We were both surprised to see each other. I stopped moving forward. The dog barked once, dropped back to the ground, and started towards me. I started backing up and bumped into a garage wall, losing my balance and falling onto my backside. The dog continued towards me barking. I had nowhere to go. I yelled for my partner who was out-of-sight that I needed help, while drawing my weapon with my strong hand and my OC w/ my weak hand. The dog stopped just short of me and continued to bark.

My partner rounded the corner of the house followed by the homeowner. I yelled to the homeowner to get her dog under control or I would kill it. She said it wouldn't hurt me (yeah, right) but made no move to take control of it. I then sprayed it with the OC, and it ran away whimpering like a schoolgirl.

Single Six
June 8, 2011, 01:14 PM
Kevin: I see we're both in the LE biz. :) My agency has never taught us to back up, although maybe they should. I can see where, in some situations, it could be advisable. However, I also agree that it should be done only if you're sure of what's behind you, particularly where footing is concerned. On a side note: Not to hijack my own thread here, but I once had an on-duty occasion to hit a pit bull with OC. It didn't phase him in the least! It occurred to me later that if that dog had been actually biting me or a third party, shooting it might not have been feasible for the danger of bullets hitting the dog's victim. That was the moment I decided to upgrade my options, and bought myself a 6" Cold Steel Voyager. Always have a second or even third option! :cool: Regards, and Stay Safe.

mrbro
June 8, 2011, 02:29 PM
In my simple minded view, I presumed it was being used to protect the hand from being shot in a very close, point shoot situation.

Frank Ettin
June 8, 2011, 04:39 PM
The gun is being fired from what is called the retention position. It is an intermediate position in the commonly taught 4 or 5 count draw stroke. It is used for engaging a very close in target. I've practiced this drill in classes I've had with Louis Awerbuck and, most recently at Gunsite (http://ezine.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=87)when I took the 350, Intermediate Handgun, class.

To get an idea how the technique looks in action, see this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zJlsc8GU50&feature=related) from the movie, Collateral.

Yes, I know it's just a movie. But Tom Cruise trained extensively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0&NR=1) with a former member of the SAS.

Deaf Smith
June 8, 2011, 06:52 PM
The gun is being fired from what is called the retention position.

fiddle is correct.

That hand in the air is to stop any grappling while the other hand gives the BG the contents of the gun.

SouthNarc has his own version (as do most trainers.)

The concept is simply to have the off hand both in a guard position and out of the way of the gunfire.

Just how and where you put it is up to you.

Deaf

AdamSean
June 8, 2011, 09:41 PM
I have learned this in martial arts with many weapons. You hold the weapon close to the body to prevent the assailant who may be too close to extent the weapon from being taken away. The other hand is raised to protect the body or slap away the assailant's attack to give a clear shot to a vital target. This seems like a practical explaination of the picture.

Onward Allusion
June 8, 2011, 10:10 PM
fiddletown
The gun is being fired from what is called the retention position.

+1

Kind of surprised that it took so many posts to get to this and I'm a civi.

shootniron
June 8, 2011, 10:16 PM
I think that was an "OH CRAP......that thing just fired" stance.

Kevin Rohrer
June 8, 2011, 11:24 PM
Firing from the retention position as well as moving forward and backing up while firing are part of Ohio's weapon qualification course requirements.

I seem to recall doing all that as part of API250, but won't swear to it as it was a long time ago.

Frank Ettin
June 8, 2011, 11:39 PM
...I seem to recall doing all that as part of API250, but won't swear to it as it was a long time ago. When I did 250 in 2002, we did not do it. But we definitely did in the 350 I recently completed.

9mm
June 8, 2011, 11:52 PM
The position you described is classic defense posturing to fend off the hostile from making a grab for the gun.

If one is going to shoot with one hand, the other hand is placed upon the chest to keep it out of the way so the shooter does not inadvertently shoot himself in the non-shooting hand.

+1

I perfer to aim with 2 hands though... But if the BG is far enough away I will aim with 2 hands. If he is close, CQC close I do what that picture shows. Also the hand placed up in the air can defend a swing/attack.

ranburr
June 9, 2011, 01:29 AM
Close range defensive position. The "count Dracula" position is also often taught.

Single Six
June 9, 2011, 06:08 AM
Ranburr: "Count Dracula"? Can you please elaborate on that?

Shawn Thompson
June 9, 2011, 08:18 AM
As has already been eluded to, there are many trainers out there teaching a method similar to what is described in the OP. Most are tied in with some sort of Close Quaters Training, or Contact Distance Managemet; however, the intended use of this technique for the most part is the same.

Playing strictly off Las Vegas odds, most people we encounter are right handed - and the majority of them are untrained boobs. if you hand the typical "untrained boob" a contact weapon (pipe wrench, club, whatever) odds tell us that their opening strike will more than likely be somewhere in the first quadrant (vertical to horizontal on the attackers right hand side) with an overhand, or outside to inside move.

There are a few points of contact on the cranial storage unit that are directly linked to the "off switch". Typcal of these are the jaw, temple and base of the skull. The support-arm elevated to the side of the head with the hand/fingers wrapped around the back of the neck protects these specific points of contact from a blow comming into that quadrant.

Whether or not the defensive scenario "requires" shooting, techniques like this and those that are similar are good tools for the tool box. One of the most critical components in any conflict is to stay on your feet - bad and unexpected things happen on the ground.

As an additional comment, and playing the same Vegas odds, if you are going to move, move sharply to the left. When a blow comes from that side, moving to the right only catches the strike a little later in the swing; moving back does not always compensate for the attackers ability to move forward, or the length of the contact device; moving to the left may short-stroke the blow, or might even possibly move you out of the way completely (again considering the "majority" of people are right-handed untrained boobs - thats why we call it Vegas odds).

Onward Allusion
June 9, 2011, 08:20 AM
Weak side arm raised and extended as if you were going to whip your "cape" over you attacker...with gun on strong side in retention position. Allows defensive and offensive use of weak hand. Works well with a light in the weak hand where it can be used as a weapon as the "cape" comes over the other party.

Here's a link... Hope this clarifies, because it's hard for me to put it into words...
http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=627&Itemid=74

Erik
June 9, 2011, 01:59 PM
"Erik, see my post 8 to see why I don't think that default would have worked out so well."

I'm was referring to what I believe the the OP described, not the picture shown. The point of vertical and horizontal default stances is to ingrain a reaction calculated to serve most well in most circumstances. And from there, other reactions should be ingrained.

Erik
June 9, 2011, 02:16 PM
""Count Dracula"? Can you please elaborate on that?"

It is the common term for the horizontal barrier stance that you initially described:

"The shooter is either drawing, or has already drawn, his sidearm. His other arm is held out in front of him parallel to the ground, elbow bent, with the hand flat against the side of his head. I also see knife guys like Michael Janich using this same positioning."

From there, if you're right handed, move your left hand from the right side of your head to the left side to form the vertical barrier.

There are, as mentioned, variations to both.

Best - E

Buzzcook
June 9, 2011, 03:14 PM
Stepping backward was always a no no unless you were absolutely sure of your footing. Stepping on something or tripping on something in a fight situation is the first sign that you are in deep doo doo.

That's why balance is one of the most important aspects of martial arts.

I don't claim any great expertise. Most of my knowledge of martial arts comes from dabbling. Most of my knowledge of actually fighting happened in and around places that served alcohol. The only time I was injured by a weapon, it was because of stupidity not malice.
So that's the experience I speak from.

1. underestimating distance: In fencing (which I studied 4 years) and Kendo, I kept noticing that my opponents would often miss. In fencing the thrust or lunge would end up short, sometimes by several inches. In Kendo the same was true of cuts that would have passed in front, if I hadn't had my shinai (bamboo stick) held up.
I often scored points by waiting for those missteps.

2. backing up: As you are aware, there is lots of backing up in martial arts. True, that's on mats or other flat surfaces. But almost all that retrograde movement was developed from actual fighting.
From my experience it could be successfully reapplied to actual fighting.

So there ya go, that's why i wrote what I did. YMMV

GUNSITE
June 9, 2011, 03:27 PM
No, I don't mean that rhetorically. For the past few years I've noticed photos in many of the gun mags of people using this odd stance that I just don't understand. Since I don't know how to post pics, I'll describe it: The shooter is either drawing, or has already drawn, his sidearm. His other arm is held out in front of him parallel to the ground, elbow bent, with the hand flat against the side of his head. I also see knife guys like Michael Janich using this same positioning. Can someone please explain the purpose of this peculiar-looking stance to me, and also: How many of you guys use it yourselves?
End Quote..

Over the years i came to the conclusion, i don't believe in STANCES in CC or LE. I do believe in stances at the beginners stage, or for sport/target shooting. Once you reach the stage of advance shooting, stance becomes irrelevant.

Target shooting is a great for practicing your MECHANICS, once you master the MECHANICS ( Grip Aim Sight and Trigger pull)... how you stand doesn't matter. Look at most Real Life shootings Videos, and see if anyone is taking a stance, probably not, because most of the time your moving, retreating or going for cover/concealment. If your moving your mechanics still need to be applied.. GAST.

The video of Tom Cruise is a Hip Shot many LE qualifications require, which is great since most shootings are up close and spontaneous. Most Departments do the Target thing, behind the barrel, kneeling, weak hand and stuff, and go home... they qualify. I think ALL should go through so type of Tactical/combat close quarters training.

I like to carry my holster on my hip with the holster in a straight up Vertical position, NO slant forwards or holsters sitting on the rear of the hip. I line up my weapon's trigger with the seam on my pants leg as a guide, so now if i had to draw my weapon it would come straight up, giving me the option to take the shot from any where on the way up, or from the arm pit, as seen in the photo, or i can extend my weapon from the arm pit to one or two handed grip.

In tactical training there are Positions, not stances. if your firing your weapon as you advance towards your target, you need to align your body, or, if your moving sideways, or retreating while firing. In a real life shooting scenario your better NOT take a stance, you better MOVE, and then do everything else.

I'm not one to worry about STANCE, MOVE... Pull your weapon and shoot, or cover your target as quickly as possible.

Except for beginners or Range Target shooting

Frank Ettin
June 9, 2011, 06:51 PM
...i don't believe in STANCES in CC or LE. I do believe in stances at the beginners stage, or for sport/target shooting. Once you reach the stage of advance shooting, stance becomes irrelevant. Yes and no. As one progresses in his development of shooting and tactical skills, "stance" comes to take on a different meaning.

Yes, in practical fighting with a gun, the notion of stance in the rigid sense (feet here, hands held just so, etc.) starts to lose its meaning. But we are still concerned with providing ourselves with a suitable shooting platform to help us maintain our balance, help us manage recoil and deliver quick, accurate shots, move fluidly, transition among multiple targets, address threats from multiple directions.

And thus "stance" comes to take on a new meaning -- one involving movement. When we begin to practice skills like moving and shooting and shooting while moving, we must learn to the ways to move our feet and shift our balance to maintain a strong and stable shooting platform. When we practice skills like moving to cover and shooting from cover, we must learn the ways to move to preserve balance and how to position our feet and bodies to make the best use of cover, exposing ourselves as little as possible. And when we practice moving in the shoot house or the outside simulator, we must learn to maintain balance and make the most effective use of concealment.

So when it comes to practical weaponscraft, stance means something different from what it means standing still shooting at static targets. But it still means something.

Steel Talon
June 9, 2011, 07:22 PM
It's CQB where you push BG away and recoil your arm back into defence position. As you draw and fire from point position.

A couple of things for this
* Push away BG to create a bit of room for quick draw and fire
* Pull arm back so its not grabbed
* Keeps you from shooting a hole/injury in your pushing arm

motorhead0922
June 9, 2011, 07:47 PM
6 seconds into the video on Matt Canovi's home page, you'll see the position the OP describes, I believe.

http://www.mattcanovi.com/

I'll ask him why he does that tomorrow.

2edgesword
June 9, 2011, 08:30 PM
When trying to train an individual to keep their hands up it helps to give them something to index the hand against. With respect to a stance where the knife is held in the lead hand (right for most people) you want to keep the left hand up guarding your head.

In the video posted the position of the left hand seems somewhat exaggerated but again, this may be a method he uses to insure the student has something (their head) to index the left hand against and reinforce the importance of keeping the hand up.

I'm also wondering in the shooting video if there is some intention to protect the hearing in the left ear. Just a matter of speculation on my part.

Frank Ettin
June 9, 2011, 08:42 PM
...I'm also wondering in the shooting video if there is some intention to protect the hearing in the left ear. Just a matter of speculation on my part. Nah. It really is to (1) protect the head from a blow; and (2) get the support hand away from the muzzle.

At Gunsite, we brought the support hand to the side of our head. In Louis Awerbuck's class, we warded off and then brought the support hand in flat to our chests (and that's what Tom Cruise did in the clip from Collateral).

When engaging from the retention position, there are a number of things that might be done with the support hand. But the important thing is to keep it away from the muzzle of the gun.

motorhead0922
June 10, 2011, 07:00 PM
I'll ask him why he does that tomorrow.

It's as many of you have described.

1. Left hand gouges the eyes of the attacker to get some separation and time to draw.
2. Left hand moves clothing out of the way if necessary to access gun.
3. Left hand is pulled back to cover the head from a right-handed attack, while
4. The gun is drawn and fired.

smince
June 11, 2011, 07:21 AM
The guy with the pipe should already have a couple bullets in him. He's about two steps too close.Emptying a magazine into him doesn't guarantee that he wouldn't still be able to close distance and follow through with the swing.

sigxder
June 12, 2011, 01:52 AM
The shooting position sounds like the 3/4's position as it is called in point shooting. The other hand up guy the head I would bet would be to ward off any strikes to that side of the head. Point shooting is for up close and dirty fighting. You may have to fight to get to your gun. Sounds like its combining armed techniques (point shooting) and unarmed techniques (other hand protecting the head) combined. A good thing to practice by the way. Not enough people practice combining gun and empty hand techniques. If you're that close (which civilians usually are in a gunfight) then you might have to use some strikes or blocks to get to your gun.