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View Full Version : For people who think shooting perp w/45 auto = game over


C0untZer0
May 18, 2011, 10:58 AM
I think this debunks the myth that hitting a guy anywhere with a .45 is going to be "game over"

This officer took a .45 - literally took it on the chin, and continued to fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0&feature=player_embedded

Hunter2678
May 18, 2011, 11:11 AM
"freak happinstances" happen...he's super lucky which goes without saying...there have been people who've been shot in the vitals and end up living and its happened with many calibers..kind of points out how the handgun isnt as powerful as many think. I think had it been a much more "potent" centerfire rifle round, things may have turned out much worse.

Eagle0711
May 18, 2011, 11:33 AM
So much for the range as a place to learn to fight.

This guy is a warrior, who had the mindset and the will to live. Wouldn't have mattered if he had a 22 RF. Three shots to the head at close range.

I'm happy that this guy prevailed and was able to articulate the details of a life and death encounter that occured quickly. I apprecaite his account so that the lessons can be learned from someone who has " been and done". His attitude is great. Not a braggart or a blowhard, but the real deal.

Thanks for posting. Eagle

gearhounds
May 18, 2011, 11:52 AM
I don't think any sensible person thinks it's a guaranteed "lights out" with any particular round. Any given round on any given day could do the job; thankfully, it wasn't his time. A good reminder that the fight is never over, no matter what.

bigbaby
May 18, 2011, 12:10 PM
I think it is cool the dude survived what would have been 'lights out' most of the time; I do not feel the need to go out and replace my 38 or my 357 witha S&W 500; however. No one with any sense would assume that a 45 or even a 50bmg is gonna ensure a stop. It never ceases to amaze me how 'tough' humans can be.

Hook686
May 18, 2011, 12:19 PM
Amazing, absolutely amazing. My thought was it was a good thing he had 14 rounds to shoot. I was surprised the BG fired 12 .45acp rounds and the Good Guy survived.

Double Naught Spy
May 18, 2011, 12:25 PM
I think I would have entitled the thread, "For People who think shooting a perp in the head = game over..."

Skans
May 18, 2011, 12:36 PM
The officer was wearing body armor - a number of the shots struck his armor. Without that, I'm sure the murdering-shoplifter would have won the fight.

The officer tried to use a Taser first - that was probably his first mistake. The law probably says otherwise, but I think police officers should have the right to shoot to kill if a criminal tries to run away. In fact, I don't even think it should be a right - it should be a requirement. Thankfully, as an ordinary-joe-citizen, I don't have to try and tase a violent criminal. I can simply start pumping lead into an attacker.

bigbaby
May 18, 2011, 12:48 PM
I doubt there are many shoplifters who would run, let alone produce a weapon and start firing on an arresting officer. This was a good cop, who simply wanted to subdue a fleeing suspect without having to resort to using a lethal weapon. If a cop shoots you in the back or even the back of the legs, he should have to 'explain things' I'm not saying the police must allow a fleeing suspect to get a way, but the use of lethal force must be a last resort.

Brian Pfleuger
May 18, 2011, 12:50 PM
I think that myth was debunked decades ago. Some people just like to believe things, facts be damned.

markj
May 18, 2011, 02:33 PM
This officer took a .45 - literally took it on the chin, and continued to fight

Helo pilot in nam took a 50 thru his chin went out the front of his face, he finished his mission, forgot to put the steel plate under his rear....

Gal shot a guy with a 22 he died so what?

Every animal dies its own death, any hunter that has killed large animals know this. Some lay down and die, some fight till every drop of blood is gone. Best remember this if yiou ever shoot someone, dont turn yer back, do not lower your gun, expect him to bounce up and go on the attack again.

CWKahrFan
May 18, 2011, 02:46 PM
Nice link... Thanks!

C0untZer0
May 18, 2011, 03:36 PM
The video says the taser malfunctioned. The officer says "normally he'd a given up when I first made contact with him with the taser." I don't know exactly what that means or how the taser failed. If the tazer would have worked it may not have come to a shoot out. Who knows, but the guy would have been too juiced to draw, and if he tried to draw the officer could have zapped him again, (if he even had that kind).

But who knows...

Double Naught Spy
May 18, 2011, 04:07 PM
Helo pilot in nam took a 50 thru his chin went out the front of his face, he finished his mission, forgot to put the steel plate under his rear....

Friendly fire ain't friendly.

dreamweaver
May 18, 2011, 04:18 PM
if it happened today, the officer would have been charged with murder for the "3 close quarters shots to the head" on an incapacitated , "misguided youth", who friends and family say was a "kind and gentle boy" who had no opportunity to succeed because of his skin color......:mad:
jmho

C0untZer0
May 18, 2011, 04:30 PM
if it happened today, the officer would have been charged with murder for the "3 close quarters shots to the head" on an incapacitated , "misguided youth", who friends and family say was a "kind and gentle boy" who had no opportunity to succeed because of his skin color......
jmho

It happened in 2008. Have things changed that much?

C0untZer0
May 18, 2011, 04:36 PM
Here is another twist on the story. Officer Preston sued Taser International Corp, because the Taser allegedly failed.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/20907874/detail.html

I don't know what to think of this lawsuit.

The first thing I thought of is, logically something like this could be extended to gun manufacturers if a gun jammed.

Second, I thought it could be extended to ammo manufacturers if a bullet failed to penetrate / expand, or otherwise incapacitate.

I guess they could also sue the makers of body armor / "bullet proof" vests if those things failed in any way, and they could sue auto makers if the cars failed the officers.

Single Six
May 18, 2011, 04:47 PM
I think Ayoob covered this incident in his "Ayoob Files" column in American Handgunner not too long ago. That officer is truly tough and truly blessed.

YARDDOG(1)
May 18, 2011, 04:49 PM
It's one of our FINEST, The BG was Shoplifting & ran LEO ran after him & The dam PUNK got what he desearved :mad: If his family thinks he was a GOOD BOY :barf: Just goes to show he had no respect for athority :rolleyes:
Y/D

BGutzman
May 18, 2011, 07:52 PM
My sympathy and respect to the officer, he was tough and lucky...

Anyone who wants to take a 45 to the chin is nuts. Good thread but as has been pointed out adnauseum its more about CNS then just caliber...

The mini 9mm is alot less weight and all other things being equaled would have faired no better... And before this becomes a caliber war, the 45 has won the battle between 9mm and 45 acp, you just have to upgrade it a little.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm ;)

C0untZer0
May 18, 2011, 08:13 PM
Joel Abner was using 45 FMJ, you hear so much about how the FMJs over penetrate. I thought getting shot in the chin - the round would would go straight back and penetrate his throat but it deflected and came out his neck. I guess you never can tell what a bullet will do.

sirsloop
May 18, 2011, 09:00 PM
for people who think you cannot fall 22,000 feet out of a WWII bomber and survive without a parachute

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071076/posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lJTZUOKLfw

:D:D

cosmicdingo
May 18, 2011, 09:09 PM
Recall another similar case in which a State Trooper got shot in the forehead w/.45hardball, shot back and won.Can't remember too many facts, saw it in a gunrag.

kingkeoni
May 18, 2011, 09:22 PM
First thing is I'm glad that the good guy lived and the bad guy died.

Second is that the bad guy was using FMJ. There's a reason why we carry hollow points in our sidearms.

Third, none of the shots were in the vitals. The chin shot exited before it could do great damage. Every other shot hit body armor or non vital areas of the body.

This guys heart and will to live are to be commended.

As far as what this me ams about 45acp...
It means nothing. With proper ammunition and shot placement this encounter could have ended badly for the good guys.

Luckily the nimrod bad guy was using FMJ and wasn't as well trained as the LEO.

45Gunner
May 18, 2011, 11:02 PM
Several valuable lessons here:

1. The will to live must dominate.

2. The need to stay in the fight is essential and involves conquering all pain.

3. Never assume the threat is neutralized until you can absolutely confirm it.

4. Expect the unexpected.

5. It is better to be lucky than good.

6. Be thankful that there are men that can withstand that kind of fight, live to tell the tale, and are back on the job. Words can never say enough to thank a man like this for eliminating a sub human who would kill over a pair of stolen jeans. What would he be capable of if he lived?

The world is degenerating. In the words of a very close friend of mine that is a homicide detective..."Never leave home without your gun. It's dangerous out there."

mellow_c
May 18, 2011, 11:54 PM
I recently posted a thread asking if .38 special +P FMJ with a bit of a flat nose, would be an acceptable self defense round. In that thread I realized that .38 specials or 9mm's or .40's or whatever would be best for self defense as a hollow point of some sort. Otherwise they will just zip right through the bad guy giving him more of a scare, than actually doing enough serious damage to *shock* and *STOP* the threat. I also said that .45's would probably not need to be hollow points and that FMJ .45's would be fine considering they make a big enough hole on their own.

After watching this video, I realize that if that officer had been shot with HP .45's instead of FMJ's his injuries may have been alot worse, and that just might have been enough to change the outcome of the fight.

Thats just something to think about

cloud8a
May 19, 2011, 12:21 AM
The law probably says otherwise, but I think police officers should have the right to shoot to kill if a criminal tries to run away. In fact, I don't even think it should be a right - it should be a requirement. Thankfully, as an ordinary-joe-citizen, I don't have to try and tase a violent criminal. I can simply start pumping lead into an attacker.

No way! And I am one of the more extreme cases of people who lack sympathy for bad guys. The taser is a good buffer between close hand to hand combat or spacial deadly force with a firearm. Had his taser deployed, and worse case scenario, still not have totally incapacitated the BG the officer might have been in a better position to see the BG's weapon. If you want to argue on the dependability of tasers, fine lets go to that place. But to make it a right for a police officer to blow away everyone who runs from him, no way! That is over the top.

Thank god this officer wore his body armor, and kept his fire inside to fight with everything he had. His philosophy at the end is sound. Any other officers on this forum should write the words he said at the end and keep it in your wallet or hang it on your wall.

"I am not going to sit there and let luck determine my fate....It's your life and your business and you need to take care of your own business."

cloud8a
May 19, 2011, 12:35 AM
Joel Abner was using 45 FMJ, you hear so much about how the FMJs over penetrate. I thought getting shot in the chin - the round would would go straight back and penetrate his throat but it deflected and came out his neck. I guess you never can tell what a bullet will do.

That is another subject I am curious about. I assume that the muzzle of the .45 was very close to the officers chin. Would this be a factor in the damage it caused? In other words would the wound have been more devastating if the round would have been fired from 12 feet away? Or should we have expected the opposite?

C0untZer0
May 19, 2011, 01:42 AM
Muzzle velocity is highest right when the bullet leaves the barrel - it starts to deccelerate from that point on.

having said that... who knows what that bullet would have done given the same angle but lower velocity.

who id to say that a hollow point would have done more damage?

That bullet path just happened to not hit anything vital.

That officer said that he wasn't going to let luck determine the outcome etc etc... but he totally lucked out! If someone gets shot in the chin with a .45 - it could just as easily have passed through a major blood vessel as not, it came out his neck from his chin - how close must it have passed to a cartid artery? It could have gone straight back and his spine.

I think it was important for him to fight to survive - to fight back instead of laying doen, because probably one of those "pot shots" would have caught him in the head. You can play possum when someone's shooting at you - even if they are walking away while doing it.

So it's good that he said he wasn't going to leave it up to luck, but considering he took one on the chin right off the bat - he was lucky it didn't kill him right then and there.

cloud8a
May 19, 2011, 02:10 AM
I am not ballistics expert at all but it seems I heard somewhere that the low velocity of the .45 ACP is one of the reasons it is such a devastating round. Can someone here with more expertise school me on this?

thump_rrr
May 19, 2011, 05:19 AM
Here is the incident in greater detail as written by Massad Ayoob in American Handgunner.
I knew the story sounded familiar.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_34/ai_n56222291/?tag=content;col1

Seaman
May 19, 2011, 07:30 AM
45 HPs would have likely flattened and done less damage. As it was the police officer took a terrific 230 gr fmj hit to the jaw that would have ended the fight right there (in most cases).

The perp's problem was not the 230 gr 45 ACP ammo, it did what it was supposed to do.

The perp's problem was that he picked a fight with Robocop.

My congratulations to the officer, he

1. thru sheer determination refused to go down, and
2. kept his cool (kept putting rounds on target) despite debilitating injury and stunning pain.

Good to hear the officer survived against heavy odds (the perp was well armed and a tough too), job well done.

C0untZer0
May 19, 2011, 02:06 PM
I thought about the possibility that a hollow point would not have punched through so cleanly and would have delivered more energy to the jaw.

If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...

Seaman
May 19, 2011, 03:06 PM
Count, that is an interesting point.

I have not been shot in the jaw by 45 HP and fmj to compare results. Now in the good officer’s case the jaw was broken and the teeth went horizontal, meaning he had to be stunned and in pain too…would a hollow point impact harder?

My gut feeling is that HP bullet flattening /spreading would somewhat dissipate the impact, more of a splat than a concentrated strike, meaning less shock. Bear in mind also that fmj bullets can also flatten/distort to a certain degree depending on what they strike.

Years ago when researching the Miami shootout, it surprised me that the two perps suffered 4 hits to the skull from 38 spl +P HP ammo that flattened, fell off, and did not stop them.

All I can tell you is that police officer sure passed the tough man test.

markj
May 19, 2011, 03:13 PM
Second is that the bad guy was using FMJ. There's a reason why we carry hollow points in our sidearms.

That HP would not have done more damage. In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time.

Guys jaww was broke, when I boxed I saw a few guys lay it on and break a jaw, some droped many fought on. Ali had his jaw broke by norton in an early round ali went on to win that fight.

CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.

Brian Pfleuger
May 19, 2011, 03:47 PM
In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time..


That's the first time I've EVER heard anything like that...

Who did these tests and with what bullets and cartridges?

Seaman
May 19, 2011, 04:43 PM
I test all my carry ammo, and penetration is at the top of my list. I’ve done 2x4s, metal, pork ribs, telephone books, etc. Tho I haven’t tested a lot of specialty HP ammo, I have found that fmj goes deeper and smashes thru, HP not so much.

But don’t believe me, read Officer Lang’s story, in a gunfight he needed all 14 rounds of 45 ACP 185 gr +P jacketed HPs in his Glock 21 to stop one slightly built perp.

Officer lang was “not pleased with his bullets’ performance…He feels…his..bullets did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal.” ---American Handgunner, May-June, 2011, p. 95

It is an important tactical decision as to what ammo you carry, for me its fmj.

Deaf Smith
May 19, 2011, 06:08 PM
There is no such thing as a one shot stop round.

People have been shot in the head with CROWBARS and were still lucid.

I know of a few incidents where shotguns with buckshot didn't drop them.

Sure, aim strait and use as powerful a round/handgun as you can control, but don't think for a minute it's some super weapon.

Deaf

C0untZer0
May 19, 2011, 07:30 PM
There are a few cases to consider - there is the case of Ron Hunt. He fell from a ladder and had an 18" auger go into his eye and through his skull. It was a 1.5" diameter auger - so in equivalent hand gun caliber it was three times the width of a .500 S&W Magnum, and more than adequate penetration, pretty good shot placement too - I mean if you can shoot someone in the eye with 1.50 cal round with 18" guaranteed penetration, you sort of expect to kill him. But Ron not only lived but was conscious throughout the ordeal:

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/drillbit.asp

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70452&stc=1&d=1305899955

There is also the case of Phineas Gage. Phineas was injured in an accident preparing to lay rail for a railroad. An accidental explosion of a charge he had set blew his tamping iron through his head. The tamping iron was 3 feet 7 inches long and weighed 13 1/2 pounds. It was 1 1/4 inches in diameter at one end and tapered over a distance of about 1-foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other. The tamping iron went in point first under his left cheek bone and completely out through the top of his head, landing about 25 to 30 yards behind him. Phineas was knocked over but may not have lost consciousness even though most of the front part of the left side of his brain was destroyed

Again… if you can shoot someone with 1.25 caliber round and send it clean through his head – you expect to kill him.

According to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow the 1.50 caliber auger round which reliably penetrates bone and flesh up to 18” has 0% street success. The 1.25 caliber tamping iron round which likewise completely penetrates bone also has a 0% street success rate. Me personally, if I had a choice between shooting someone with a .40 caliber bullet or a 1.25 caliber tamping iron – I’d choose the tamping iron. But that’s just me.

I just think it goes to show that there is no such thing as a “one shot stop”. It was an attempt to measure bullet effectiveness, it wasn’t a bad idea, but those two guys staked their livelihood on it – it became “their thing”. They were making money off the books, speaking etc.. and because of that – even when problems came to light about their methodology or data gathering or validity of their conclusions they had to defend their shtick to the very hilt. I think they started out with good intentions, but they were over their heads scientifically, medically, mathematically and statistically speaking.

I personally think that after looking at issues, it’s just not possible to even qualify in a statistically reliable way - this thing called a “one shot stop”. And for addition reasons, it’s not possible to glean a statistically reliable correlation between this nebulously defined “one shot stop” and “ammo effectiveness” (another nebulous term).


.

MLeake
May 19, 2011, 07:49 PM
PK,

I've seen .44Mag HP rounds fail to penetrate the shoulders of boar, when fired from a Marlin carbine. Stuck in the cartilage.

I've seen a guy hit a hog in the wrong spot on the skull with a .357 JHP, and have it accomplish exactly nothing.

But I've never heard of a service-grade JHP or HP bouncing off a human rib cage, if not at a glancing angle in the first place.

Seaman
May 19, 2011, 08:53 PM
“Again… if you can shoot someone with 1.25 caliber round and send it clean through his head – you expect to kill him….. think it goes to show that there is no such thing as a “one shot stop”.

Then how does one explain all the folks that have been stopped with one shot…an early example being the gunfight between Davis Tutt and Wild Bill Hickok. At a distance of 75 yards (225 feet) both men fired once, Davis Tutt was stopped (and died) at the scene, shot thru the heart. Hickoks handgun on that day was a 36 cal 1851 Navy Colt.

MLeake
May 19, 2011, 08:59 PM
Seaman, he obviously means there's no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop, and that Marshall and Sanow's "96% stop" is based on dubious scientific method.

Seaman
May 19, 2011, 09:33 PM
Don’t know anything about Marshall and Sanow’s “96% stop.”

Forgive my ignorance (and confusion), but wouldn’t a shot thru the heart qualify as a “guaranteed one shot stop.”

Many years ago, my favorite President, the scholar /soldier /explorer /Nobel Laureate Theodore Roosevelt said that to stop an enemy you had to shoot them in the brain, the heart, or the spine, and call me old fashioned but I tend to agree.

Don Glock
May 19, 2011, 09:45 PM
there's no magic bullet? :eek::eek:




Don’t know anything about Marshall and Sanow’s “96% stop.”

you're better off. it's nonsense. :D

orionengnr
May 19, 2011, 10:00 PM
Just goes to show that averages are just that. You may end up at one end or the other of the bell curve.

Occasionally, people die from one round of .22LR.
Occasionally, people survive multiple rounds of .45 acp.

Each is the exception to the rule.

If you want to bet on the long shot, go for it. Someone wins the lottery ever week. They make the headlines.

But the reality is, millions of others don't. Most of us examine the data, and bet on the more likely outcome.

MLeake
May 19, 2011, 10:13 PM
Seaman, people have survived heart punctures. Odds don't favor it, but it happens.

Had a friend who had back to back hog hunts get "interesting" when he went for heart shots. He was using a Ruger Security Six 6" .357. First hog, on butchering discovered the first round hit the heart. Hog charged my friend, who dropped it with the second shot, to the head.

Second hog, on butchering discovered the first round severed the aorta. Hog charged my friend, who this time turned and ran to his nearby car. Hog charged and tusk raked the car, denting the driver's door. My friend grabbed a Mini14 from the back seat, and shot the hog in the head through the driver's window.

So, for hogs anyway, heart and aorta shots aren't guaranteed to produce a now, now, now stop.

So, no, there are no guarantees. High probabilities, sure, guarantees, not so much.

Keep shooting until the threat ceases.

Don Glock
May 19, 2011, 10:15 PM
don't know about hogs, but a human can continue to attack for 15 seconds after their heart's been completely obliterated by a bullet according to Dr. Fackler.

more than enough time to fire off a few shots.

Mas Ayoob
May 19, 2011, 10:27 PM
Those of us who've had the privilege of knowing Detective Jared Reston know he's a role model cop. If you have 18 minutes to spare, you can learn more from Jared about this shooting in the interview he granted the ProArms Podcast, http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/03/14/047-ed-brown-and-jared-reston/. Jared's discussion of the incident appears at 33:00 into the podcast.

As you'll hear host Steve Denney (a former SWAT officer himself) explain, Jared is a helluva good shot, too. It has been a pleasure to shoot with him.

He has since been in another fatal OIS, also eminently justified and cleared by the prosecutor's office as such.

Instructors here are free to download the podcast and use it for training.

Brit
May 19, 2011, 10:38 PM
In watching a demonstration of a mechanical device, six 6" plates, built by two brothers, and though the two brothers were not firearms instructors, they were making statements to these young officers, off the cuff.

My function was as a monitor, on the two Engineers. When they started berating the Officers who hit 2" below the plate, big bullet strike on the flat support beam. I jumped in, and told the class that the equipment was great, but the advice was flawed,

Bringing a big young man to the front of the class, I had him stand against the equipment. Measured the "Miss" then showed the class 2" below the chin!

Two inch low of a hit with a 9mm, 147g Hollow Point, at 1000fps! Right through the throat, and spine? A miss!!

Ended with some humor, the plates were good gear, they reset on their own.

Head shots are good most of the time, a center hit in the throat, is good all of the time, even if not aimed for.

cloud8a
May 20, 2011, 01:22 AM
People have been shot in the head with CROWBARS and were still lucid.

Where can I get a gun that fires CROWBARS?

mellow_c
May 20, 2011, 01:35 AM
That is the end point.

Our bodies will take anything that our minds are willing to receive.

If nothing essential to the immediate function of our body is disabled,
If we have the will. we will continue to fight until our body is DONE and unable to continue.

Unless we are struck with a force that to the "individual" is so extreme that they "feel" they can no longer put up a fight.

Will of survival.

Animals dont know what hit them, they just know things are wrong, so they go nuts and attack or retreat until their body says "NO, you are DONE"

Humans say "OMG< I'm shot!!!!!!! I cant go on" an then we collapse" either that or we say.... (excuse me) "F this.... I'm pumped and nothing will stop me but death"

That is why I now understand that more damage means more stopping power. In the generally speaking bell curve like orionengnr originally said

C0untZer0
May 20, 2011, 07:31 AM
...

"TAMPING IRON: a crowbar-like tool used to compact an explosive charge into the bottom of a bore hole. 3 feet 7 inches in length; 1-1/4 inches in diameter at one end tapering over a distance of about 1 foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other end; and weighing 13-1/2 pounds."

Short of military artillery (like that Navy magnetic rail gun), I don't think there is a gun that fires projectiles like these, so you have to dig a hole, plant explosive charges in it, then get the bad guy to bend over the hole and then detonate.

I think you'd have to do it by saying something like "Whoa - look at this, someone dropped their bling-bling in this here hole" And then when the bad guy looks in the hole.... BLAM !

Double Naught Spy
May 20, 2011, 07:41 AM
That HP would not have done more damage. In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time.

markj, I think you are just making up stuff now.

CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.

This is wrong as well.

C0untZer0
May 20, 2011, 07:56 AM
I don't know what CNS means... :(

MLeake
May 20, 2011, 08:04 AM
Central Nervous System

C0untZer0
May 20, 2011, 08:12 AM
One of the not-so-much talked about aspects of this story is where and how many times Joel Abner was shot. Not counting the three to the head area... he seemed to take a lot of rounds and not go down.

MLeake
May 20, 2011, 08:34 AM
At least two shots were said to have hit Abner about an inch apart, in the middle of his back.

I haven't seen any reference to Abner's size, but based on the quarter mile sprint that he barely lost to a physical fitness buff, I would guess Abner was in good shape.

MikeNice81
May 20, 2011, 09:14 AM
If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...

The thing is that it usually takes more than the 300 or 400 pounds that a bullet creates. Chuck Lidell punches guys in the face with between 1,200 and 1,400 pounds of force and they stay up.

A lucky hit in the right spot can take a man down with very little energy. It is like a lucky shot shot from a gun, don't count on it.

BlueTrain
May 20, 2011, 09:17 AM
I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.

With regards however to the comment about whether or not how close the muzzle is to the person (or animal) about to be shot, I think you may be onto something. It doesn't have anything to do with velocity but rather with the muzzle blast of the weapon. In other words, if you placed the muzzle of the firearm against the body of what you are shooting, it would probably do more damage. It's an idea anyway and probably doesn't have much practical application.

Brian Pfleuger
May 20, 2011, 09:54 AM
I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.

Actually, I would say that's true, that "all" handgun rounds are the same.

By all, I mean not literally "all", but any of the major calibers from, roughly, high end 38spl, 9mm energies to 10mm, 357mag energies.

Given proper bullet selection and proper shot placement, I believe the long term averages would be nearly identical as to the effect and time to effect.

Handguns are very weak things, really. Even the most powerful cartridges typically carried will have muzzle energies equivalent to what a fairly low end rifle bullet has at hundreds of yards distance.

This is why I consider a handgun to be a last ditch weapon, carried because it is the only reasonable choice. When I have a choice, at home for example, I would reach for the 12ga, not ANY handgun.

MLeake
May 20, 2011, 11:01 AM
BlueTrain, I wouldn't say I'm "upset" about M&S. I would say it alarms me when people make statements such as "I'm carrying a 96% stopper!" You know you've seen plenty of such claims on this and other forums.

There are people who really think they have a 96% chance of a one shot stop with a .357 125gr, or a 94% chance with a 230gr .45 HST; some of those same people would rather carry one of those guns, than a gun with a load they can actually control and get rapid follow-up shots with.

Seems to me the people who make those claims the loudest, are often not the best shooters. New guys, who would probably be better off with something else.

I see guys like that at the range on a regular basis. They make lots of noise, shoot big ol' guns, and don't hit much.

Not to say there aren't people who can shoot the big bores well. I see plenty of them; for that matter, I am one of them.

But people buy off on M&S stats, and think the caliber is the big difference in shooting results, when realistically the difference is in the shooter. Can caliber and load make a difference? Yes, sure. Do I think a shooter is better off with a 9mm he can 10-ring than a .45 that he is lucky to hit the 8-ring with? Yes.

C0untZer0
May 20, 2011, 11:28 AM
I know there are people who are upset with Marshall & Sanow - it's usually the people who got involved with that acrimonious debate with them.

When I first was trying to decide on what round to go with in my 9, I saw one of their first articles - it may even have been their very first article. And I really wanted to believe what they were saying. I actually purchased my ammo based on the round that they said had the best one shot stop percentages.

I remember though - I was going through college at the time and I was taking a statistics class, and one of their rounds that they assigned a one shot stop percentage to had only 12 cases behind it. And I remember what my stats class prof said - that a data set of less than 30 is not statistically reliable. I remember thinking back then that 12 shooting were too few statistically to predict anything.

That's like when baseball season opens and you look at your favorite slugger and you go "Whoa ! He's batting 890 !!!" Of course he's only had 12 at bats and at the end of the season his average will probably be around 300.

I do think there is meaningful information somewhere in all of these different shootings with different calibers and bullet designs, I'm just not sure how to get meaning from the data, and I don't think M&S got meaningful data out of it either.

What they have published has made its way into the vernacular of the shooting community. In any gun store or forum, you'll hear people speak with an air of authority about this round or that round having "stopping power" or 95% success rate - or "street results". They're just taking the percentages that M&S tacked on next to an ammunition brand.

I want Marshal & Sanow to be correct - or anyone for that matter, to be able to give me those numbers... I personally would have a good feeling knowing that the round in my pistol had a 96% chance of stopping the bad guy with one pull of the trigger.

And when I was looking at their data and what little they put out about their data gathering methods, I even tried to think of ways to solve some of the problems... I thought of indexing the body and categorizing hits into different categories - like heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, intestines... because probably if someone gets shot in the heart they are going to stop - be it .22LR, .380 auto, .357 mag, or a 10mm. So I thought, "What does it prove about a round if they bad guy gets shot right in the heart? Well - that it was able to penetrate to the heart, but maybe not much more than that.

The more I tried to think of things like that - the more complicated it got. There are so many variables - not least of which is, the psychological factor. What happens when a guy is facing 4 police officers, takes a 38 special to the gut but also has his windshield blown out by a 12ga miss and hears a dozen rounds hitting all around him and decides to call it quits... according to M&S that is a one shot stop for the .38 lead bullet. In reality the guy made a decision to give up.

I'm not upset with Marshall & Sanow, but I think at some point they should have just said "People with knowledge of scientific method and statistics have brought to light some problems with our data and we're trying to address that." And maybe they go back to the drawing board with trying to gauge bullet effectiveness. But they didn't do that. They circled the wagons and declared war on their detractors.

And I think that, even though the figures that they attached to one-shot-stops still circulate in the vernacular of the shooting community, they are losing the battle of credibility with law enforcement agencies, because they've pitted themselves against people like DOCTOR Fackler and others... I say Doctor with emphasis. They went up against very smart people with credentials and the background to persuasively highlight the problems with M&S work.

Marshall and Sanow have their believers but major law enforcement agencies, more and more are taking into account work by PhDs when making decisions on handgun caliber and brand.

I know that ammo selection for a PD is very "political" and controversial. They can't issue a round called "Bloody Talon" no matter how effective it might be predicted to be, or how much it would benefit both officers and the public. The exact same round called "Officer's Standard” can be purchased without problems.

But cities and LE agencies also have to balance their political correctness against officer welfare. There are such things as unions and police fraternities that bring pressure to bear on governments to give officers effective tools and equipment to do their jobs. If a municipality has under-equipped officers due to PC and they have an officer die because of it - they have another PM nightmare on their hands of a different kind.

So my point is, departments are looking for good information on what to equip officers with, there is a political component to it, and more and more they are using the work of degreed and titled ballistics experts - people like Dr Fackler, and they are less and less taking into account the work of Marshall and Sanow.

A whole different discussion is that many of the rounds that M&S declare as great stoppers are rounds that Facklers studies say would be good rounds as well...

BlueTrain
May 20, 2011, 12:22 PM
Well, you're correct. No one else has come out with any other data that gives results that are especially different. Naturally, some people might look at the results and say simply, "I could have told you that." At the same time others will look at it and say something like, "Naw, .45 hardball beats them all." Maybe M&S would get more sympathy if they were selling something besides books. Has anyone else bothered to collect data and publish the results?

The thing is, nobody is forcing anyone to pick one thing over the other. The guy that sells you a .45 is equally happy to sell you a .380. Someone who knows nothing about guns might even thing that the 9mm has a personal grudge against the .45 auto, judging from what you read.

Another thing about these cartridge controversies is that in the discussion, just about every other problem is assumed away. It's like in hunting. Maybe you have a .300 magnum but still come home at night with no deer because you never saw one. For a handgun cartridge to work, the bullet has to hit the target. And if the other side is permitted to shoot at the same time, just doing that much becomes highly problematic.

But use enough gun, as someone says.

markj
May 20, 2011, 02:34 PM
That's the first time I've EVER heard anything like that...

Who did these tests and with what bullets and cartridges?


We do them on my farm. I have used full grown cattle corpses and hogs. Tie em up in the barn and shoot, autopsy shows my results. I tested HP and FMJ winchester and cor bon in 45 and 9mm. I use FMJ only.

If you wish to come over and try it for yourself give me a week and Iwill get a body for you to shoot. But you will do the autopsy :)

markj, I think you are just making up stuff now.


Quote:
CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.

This is wrong as well.

No I dont make stuff up. I do my own testing on all my arms, dont you?

You carry a gun and dont know what it will do when shot at a body?

Explain to me how I am wrong on the CNS shot? Do you understand the CNS at all? Look it up and understand what is part of central nervous system and what is not.

Teddy has it right, brain, spine or heart.

Used a 44 mag HP on deer cause FMJ isnt allowed, didnt bring him down, didnt penetrate the rib cage, neck shot took him down. I dont use handguns for large animals anymore.

Stalked that deer :) wasnt in a stand....

Don Glock
May 20, 2011, 04:22 PM
"TAMPING IRON: a crowbar-like tool used to compact an explosive charge into the bottom of a bore hole. 3 feet 7 inches in length; 1-1/4 inches in diameter at one end tapering over a distance of about 1 foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other end; and weighing 13-1/2 pounds."

:eek:

AirborneMosinFan
May 20, 2011, 04:24 PM
I've been trying to find my dream pistol, I've shot everything from the 44 mag to a little pen gun then I came across a pmr-30 it's a 22mag semi auto with a 30 round mag, I would love to have someone pop off at me when I'm carrying it, I could just imaging all the holes and internal damage that thing could make, they really should replace the 9mm regular army has and give them some of these, if you miss you have 29 more corrections before having to reload and the ammo is obviously much lighter.

Don Glock
May 20, 2011, 04:28 PM
I know there are people who are upset with Marshall & Sanow - it's usually the people who got involved with that acrimonious debate with them.

the way they gathered their data, and came up with the statistics has been discredited by every credible authority in the field of wound ballistics.


i used to buy into marshal&sanow years ago too. they were simply the only info available at the time in gun magazines etc. on wound ballistics, before the internet and information age.

however, after reading Dr. gary robert's and martin fackler's reports (both members of the IWBA-international wound ballistics association), and paid consultants with international/national LE/military agencies such as the FBI, and their work in the Us army's wound ballistics lab has convinced me they are the folks to listen to :)

BGutzman
May 20, 2011, 08:27 PM
I've been trying to find my dream pistol, I've shot everything from the 44 mag to a little pen gun then I came across a pmr-30 it's a 22mag semi auto with a 30 round mag, I would love to have someone pop off at me when I'm carrying it, I could just imaging all the holes and internal damage that thing could make, they really should replace the 9mm regular army has and give them some of these, if you miss you have 29 more corrections before having to reload and the ammo is obviously much lighter.

Your certainly entitled to feel as you do.... physics however may disagree with you... You dont see any law enforcement or military units that I am aware of with your recommendation....

Deaf Smith
May 20, 2011, 08:47 PM
Where can I get a gun that fires CROWBARS?

Whole point cloud.

Shot placement coupled with good bullet selection gives one the best chance of a one shot stop. But no round can guarantee it short of 20mm HE rounds.

This is why I always suggest for those who carry revolvers to pack two of 'em.

And why spray-n-pray is not guarantee either.

Deaf

shaunpain
May 20, 2011, 11:03 PM
As per the original post... Does anyone remember the soldier that had a live ordnance taken out of the back of his head? This war, a few years ago. I think he took an rpg that didn't detonate and lived. Simply amazing.

Don Glock
May 21, 2011, 12:28 AM
isn't an RPG round about the size of someone's head? :eek:

45Gunner
May 21, 2011, 12:42 AM
This story has intrigued me for the last two days and I cannot get it out of my mind. The posts and comments have all been most interesting but I got to wondering when I consider the number of rounds expended during the encounter of this officer and the shoplifter.

I carry a single stack 1911 pistol (.45 ACP). It is always in condition one with an eight round magazine and one in the pipe. For years I always thought that would be more than adequate to stop any hostile threat. Additionally, I carry two spare 8 round magazines and train for both emergency and tactical reloads. My BUG is also a .45 ACP 1911 which will accept the 8 round magazines. All loads are ball FMJ.

Now I wonder if faced with an attack by an individual such as this, would I have the time to reload or get to my BUG? Do I need to switch to a higher capacity gun? Of course I would never expect to be in a foot chase to run down a perp but we all learn never to say never. Have any of you given this additional capacity any consideration?

nefprotector
May 21, 2011, 12:46 AM
WOW! Kudos to the LEO for fighting back & not giving up!

ps There was a guy in my area. He was shot 7 times from .45 acp and survived as well. Also another local guy was shot point blank to the head with a .357 mag and lived.

pss
another local guy tries to commit suicide with a 12 ga shotgun, 00 buck to the chest and lived. So there you go.....

AirborneMosinFan
May 21, 2011, 01:50 AM
If I'm so intitled to my opinion then why mention your physics and expert third party opinion I can imagine you've never served so don't tell me the soldiers opinion because I am one, as for law enforcement sure that's a great round because they don't have to carry that stuff as much and they don't need to hold out as long. I mentioned regular army to be specific because they don't train on pistols and if you gave them one with a whole mess of rounds thier chances of success go up and it's lighter to carry around. I've personally been in two firefights where when my m4 jammed I would have loved to be about to continue to have placed suppressive fire aka multiple quickly placed rounds without blowing though all my side arm ammo aka having more of it and you can carry a whole mess of 22 ammo

AirborneMosinFan
May 21, 2011, 01:59 AM
A 22 magnum would be more then enough for the war we are fighting now because rarely do we encounter enemy body armor on the battle field and have you see what a 22 does when it gets inside?

bigbaby
May 21, 2011, 02:05 AM
The 22 magnum is not used by the military, but the 5.56 nato is. The civilian equivalent to the 5.56 nato is the .223 rem. So the suggestion is not so far off the mark. I had a 1911 when I was in the navy, but that was a long time ago and times are changing.

C0untZer0
May 21, 2011, 09:16 AM
When I first saw this video and I heard that Reston had taken a .45 to the chin I thought "Wow".

Another thing I just thought of was the fact that Reston never saw that first shot coming, he never saw the draw because he was wrestling with the perp.

I'm not a LEO, so I don't know what's suppossed to happen, and I know his Tazer failed (Reston subsequently sued Tazer Intl), but here is my question...

Isn't there a generally accepted procedure at that point? Like once a LEO is close to a suspect are they supposed to try to physically wrestle the suspect down / physically engage or subdue him? Or are they supossed to draw their firearm and yell "put your hands up - get down on the ground!!" (all that stuff).

I'm not critisizing Reston I just think that tactics wise police agencies across the country would have a procedure in place.

BGutzman
May 21, 2011, 09:40 AM
If I'm so intitled to my opinion then why mention your physics and expert third party opinion I can imagine you've never served so don't tell me the soldiers opinion because I am one

You can Imagine whatever you like, the fact is I served 21 years in the Regular Army, and I fought in Afganistan and I put just a couple of terrorist in the dirt while on convoy. In fact I served in both of the last two wars and I was in a minor way remotely involved with the 911 response.

But just to enlighten you a little, do a little searching on this forum and you will find what I have posed a fair amount in regards to the dismal performance of 5.56.

I imagine your in your first enlistment so kudos to you, when you get some more years under the belt you might just agree with me.. maybe not but maybe so.. Congratulations and thank you for your service.

As for physics, physics would seem to dictate that a heavier object at the same speed will take more to stop it....

BGutzman
May 21, 2011, 09:49 AM
A 22 magnum would be more then enough for the war we are fighting now because rarely do we encounter enemy body armor on the battle field and have you see what a 22 does when it gets inside?

Specifically 22 magnum no but since 5.56 is actually based off the 22 I can give you a vaild personal observation that two times when I fired on the enemy the dismal round disintegrated trying to penetrate a thin mud brick wall.

You can believe whatever you wish, it is your right and Im not making fun of you for it but what I am telling you is that in my experience I do not agree with you. I do not think that most military people who have engaged the enemy more than a few times would agree with you specifically concerning your 22 Magnum idea.... Who knows I could be wrong but I doubt it.....

Again Im not poking fun at you simply stating what my experience has been and my opinion..

Brian Pfleuger
May 21, 2011, 10:40 AM
Well, this threads going down the toilet in a hurry.

Mike Irwin
May 21, 2011, 02:26 PM
Yep. Closed.

Pax and Charlie can revisit it if they think it's redeemable.

bigbaby
May 21, 2011, 05:24 PM
The 5.56 nato served well in 'desert storm' That was a very different war then either the war in Iraq or the war in Afaganistan, but I still believe that the 5.56 nato has it's place as our main round. If you are forced to engage an enemy who is behind a protective barrier, then you should be employing a heavier weapon then an ar-15 platform or even an ak47m or m-14. Of course that may not always be an option, but switching back to the 7.62 nato is a mistake, IMO.

C0untZer0
May 21, 2011, 08:46 PM
What happened to my beautiful thread?

If you want to open a thread on why 5.56 sucks or doesn't suck - by all means open a thread.

In the meantime - does anyone know what the most common SOP is for LEOs to stop BGs if their Tazers fail? Da they wrassle em to the ground - deliver knee strikes, pull their psitol and command them to get down on the ground? What?

What's the most common thing that cops are trained to do?

cracked91
May 22, 2011, 02:23 AM
In the meantime - does anyone know what the most common SOP is for LEOs to stop BGs if their Tazers fail? Da they wrassle em to the ground - deliver knee strikes, pull their psitol and command them to get down on the ground? What?

Usually hands on, wrestling, basically. They cannot shoot any fleeing suspect except for a fleeing felon that they believe has the capacity/intent to harm others, etc. Petty theft doesn't really fit that bill. So pulling their pistol at that point would be useless because if the suspect continued to flee they would just have to re holster and keep chasing. Police generally LOVE tasers. It saves them from having to go hands on, a situation which has turned ugly for many officers.

Batons/Nightsticks last I heard have actually been considered lethal force and rarely get used anymore. While they could be used against a suspect with some sort of blunt weapon or knife, I guess most cops would rather just draw their firearm at that point.

OC spray may not have been the worst idea, but the suspect had his back to the officer for the majority of the time before the gunshots, and no matter what, when you spray a suspect and your the only officer around, your gonna end up with it all over you too.

Not condemning officer Reston's actions at all, but it may very well just have been a faulty cartridge in the taser. Removal of this cartridge would have taken 2 or 3 seconds (maybe enough time for the suspect to get away though) effectively turning the taser in a stun-gun. While not nearly as effective as when the prongs are distanced, it still may have easily taken the suspect to the ground in seconds. Tasers a very audible, so a quick trigger pull after the cartridge had been removed would have confirmed that it was once again operational.

If any LEO finds any of this info to be invalid, please let me know. Its been quite a while since I brushed up on this stuff and I could be a little rusty.

MikeNice81
May 22, 2011, 06:58 AM
What the cops are supposed to do varies from department to department. Using the NC continuim of force the next step is a blunt weapon. Of course, many officers now look at the use of force continuim a little out of order.

It is supposed to be: presence, verbal, soft hands & restraining holds, hard hands, chemical, electric, blunt weapon, firearm.

I lot of officers have moved electrical device back I know more than a few that will jump from verbal to taser. There are a lot of variables. However, technically if the taser malfunctions you should use either mace or your baton. That is where you should be on the use of force scale.

Mike Irwin
May 22, 2011, 08:50 AM
Cripes.

I forgot to close this.

Getting old... getting old...