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monkofbob
May 6, 2011, 07:14 PM
Hi everyone,

Just wanted some opinions on the tactics of different holsters.

The reason to carry is to be able to defend yourself if the need requires. The reason to conceal carry is to be able to defend yourself without anyone knowing or noticing. That is as I understand it.

The problem I'm seeing is that with some of the super concealed IWBs it makes it that you could not draw your weapon without having to fumble about with your clothes or make it painfully obvious that you are going for a gun, and to a threat that is within 10 to 15 feet those seconds going inside your shirt may make the difference.
See this link for what I mean about super concealed: http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.asp?ProductID=2753&GunID=280

You don't want to print noticeably, but you need to get to your gun when you need it.

From people who have experience drawing their weapon in stressful conditions what are your thoughts, and did your methods change after the experience.

Thanks,

monk

Eghad
May 6, 2011, 07:27 PM
have you ever tried a Camp Shirt for the spring and summer

egor20
May 6, 2011, 07:57 PM
I wear ugly Hawaiian shirts in the summer, if you can print on a shirt like this, then your carrying a DE .50 cal, a Ruger with a 7" bbl, or an .88 caliber that can shoot through schools. :D

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4OuEfH0ftZM/SWZcbI_QVnI/AAAAAAAADZg/-eEqAs55B4E/s400/hawaii+shirt.JPG

AK103K
May 6, 2011, 08:20 PM
IWB is about the most concealable/usable type holster. With a little practice, you can quickly and easily clear your cover garment and get your gun going. You can also do it fairly discretely if you wish.

I think "printing" is given a little to much weight at times. Ive carried a gun everyday most of my adult life, and have found most people you encounter day to day are pretty much oblivious to what goes on around them. Im not saying Im lackadaisical in what I do, Im not, but I dont worry to much about it these days. Something loose and appropriate color wise is really all thats necessary.

If you act like youre going about your business and doing exactly what youre supposed to be doing, most wont pay you any mind. If you act/look guilty, or like youre up to something, youre likely to get attention pretty quick.


As far as things being close and speed, things arent always so black and white, and you may have to make some decisions and possibly some adjustments as to just what youre going to do if things start to come apart. The right answer may not always be the gun, at least right off. You may have to get creative. Doing something that disrupts their "loop" and opening the distance is always a good thing.

Pays to work things out in your mind on a regular basis. Your daily life offers plenty of material, and you can actually act some of it out to a point with people who dont even know they are the actors. Just dont get to carried away. :)

monkofbob
May 6, 2011, 08:31 PM
I understand, that of course I am aware, but why should anyone else notice, and after use it becomes a natural part of your outfit.

Your point about the Boyd Loop is one that I hadn't thought of, doing two things in the time it takes them to do one. I suppose that by even thinking about this means I start one step ahead.

I usually follow the Cooper Color Code in public, and I suppose at home, never hurts to be aware. But when I play out a scenario I forget that it is an ever changing event and doesn't follow a linear path.

Also, maybe i'll have to get in some practice with Hawaiian shirts :D

egor20
May 6, 2011, 08:48 PM
I carry OWB either a RIA CS, S&W 469, S&W 60 Ladysmith (my wife's) or a Armscor M206. Both the RIA and the 469 are 3.5" and the revolvers are 3'.

So its very easy to not print with them, the holsters I normally wear are all OWB except one shoulder holster for the RIA.

curt.45
May 6, 2011, 10:21 PM
that is one ugly shirt.

no offense.

egor20
May 6, 2011, 10:36 PM
No Problem:D

I have worse ones....And you still can't find my, OWB

Japle
May 7, 2011, 08:49 AM
You don't want to print noticeably, but you need to get to your gun when you need it.

You really have to try to "print noticeably". That's because, no matter how you're packing, no one will notice.

I carried a 4” M-29 in an OWB holster along with 2 speedloaders for a month just for fun. At 5’9” and 145 lbs, it was obvious as hell. It stuck out a mile. No one noticed a thing.

Printing is a total non-issue. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to spend their time examining you. No one’s looking for guns. No one will notice any bulges under your clothes.

I've been carrying daily since 1988, always OWB and usually under a shirt, since it's hot here. I carry full-size guns - 1911, G17, XD .45, etc. Never a problem, even though I don't take any special care to hide the gun.

retiredcoasty
May 7, 2011, 07:00 PM
Ergo, I like your style! I too, have many ‘ugly’ Hawaiian shirts calling my closet home. When asked why I wear such shirts, my answer is always the same. And that is:

“When have a face like this, you wear a shirt like this!” I never have been asked to clarify my answer! But one thing for sure, the hide your carry firearm very well.

Dre_sa
May 7, 2011, 11:33 PM
I've read over this thread a few times now, and a thought occurred to me.

not printing is a function of the holster. Well, mostly the holster, and how it interacts with your belt and the clothing you are wearing. Any person could potentially get any gun to conceal provided they have the right holster, belt and covering garments.

Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.

so according to this theory, get the holster that conceals best for you, then train yourself to use it properly...

hope that makes sense. it did in my head...

langloisandy
May 8, 2011, 08:29 AM
I go with the ugly shirt theory, mostly square bottomed, some hawaiian, others are non-ugly/plain. I wear OWB (Yaqui or Scabbard) and have no issues with people noticing it. (at least nothing obvious to me).

Andy

AK103K
May 8, 2011, 08:42 AM
Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.
Thats pretty much it, although some holsters do work better/easier than others. Mostly the problem holsters tend to be the "gimmick" type holsters.

Once you figure out what works best for you carry wise, you have to practice (on a regular and ongoing basis) getting to the gun and getting it out, and doing so until its done without thought.

Having one type of gun, and a good holster, in the same place, all the time, is usually your best bet, over having a number of different guns and holsters, and constantly changing where and how they are carried. (Second guns are something else.)

You will also probably have to have a seasonal type transition period every so often, to make adjustments as your clothing changes with the seasons.

TDR911
May 8, 2011, 10:34 AM
There are some key things that I look at in a holster.
1: Most important is accessability. You must be able to get a complete proper shooting grip in one movement. The trigger gaurd area needs to be cut so that your 3rd finger can be in the proper position at the top of the grip just behind the trigger gaurd. Many holsters have excessive material at this point. The extra material interfears with the grip position.

2: Belt retension: A secure belt attachment is needed so it will not come off the belt on withdraw. A thread thru belt loop is the best choice, even on a IWB type holster. A pain to get on but completely secure.
Also it is nice to have some rotation within the belt fit so that in different seating positions the holster can be slightly rotated to accomadate this.

3: Retension: An adjustable retension is so it can be adjusted to have a secure hold but not too hard to withdraw.

4: Proper cant and ride : Finding the correct placement of the weapon that is the best angle and height so that it is within your arms natural motion and angle.

I will post some pics later.

scsov509
May 9, 2011, 01:40 AM
Accessibility, according to the epiphany I had, is a function of training. It doesn't matter what your holster is, who made it or what it's made of. Your training and building of muscle memory will ensure that your pistol is accessible in a matter of seconds.

Thats pretty much it, although some holsters do work better/easier than others. Mostly the problem holsters tend to be the "gimmick" type holsters.

Once you figure out what works best for you carry wise, you have to practice (on a regular and ongoing basis) getting to the gun and getting it out, and doing so until its done without thought.

Couldn't agree more. Proper holster selection is key, but IMO a good GUNBELT can make even a mediocre holster work much better. The other thing I really agree with here is the importance of practicing regularly with whatever setup you carry, realizing that if you choose to carry in more than one configuration you best be practicing TWICE as much. A good rule of thumb is that a reasonable carry setup should allow you to draw from cover and get 1-2 rounds on target in 2 seconds or less. Sounds fast, but it's pretty reasonable if you're practicing and using a quality setup. :cool:

BlueTrain
May 9, 2011, 05:46 AM
I generally agree with most of the comments here but to say that a draw that takes seconds won't be good enough for some people. You'll get an argument on that--but not from me. There are no secrets but you absolutely have to get that gun out when necessary without a fumble. I am afraid that, at least in my case, it might take two hand to do so from under some kinds of cover. For instance, for weekend work I like a short sleeve, pullover style heavy cotton shirt, the kind loggers wear with a half-zip front, work outside the pants if it has a square bottom. They conceal pretty well with my pistols but you just can't do a draw under a second most of the time and even then you have to be standing.

I have to disagree also about "no one ever notices" someone carrying concealed. It would be more correct to say "few people notice," but you can bet that if anyone is interested in the subject, they're on the lookout for anyone they think might be carrying. Anyone that teaches how to conceal is also going to teach how to detect. But, no, most aren't the least bit interested but some will be.

It should be obvious that drawing (or attempting to draw) your gun should not be all you should do if you are in a bad spot. Bill Cosby used to do a routine in which he pointed out that, in the movies, no one could ever get away from the monster that moved at the speed of a box turtle. Don't just stand there!

Charles Ellis
May 9, 2011, 08:21 AM
Printing is pretty much a non-issue as far as I can tell.I doubt that 1 in a 100 would ever notice,even if the gun outlined itself on the cover garment.Last year my oldest (40 yrs old) came over to the house to visit.After she had been there for about 2 hours she said,"Dad have you had that gun on the whole time that I've been here?"I had and what made it interesting to me was that I was not wearing any concealment.I had on a t-shirt that was tucked in my pants and a S&W revolver in an IWB holster,completely uncovered.It brought home to me that most people are so unconsious of what is around them that they would not notice an elephant in the garden.

Dwight55
May 9, 2011, 09:47 AM
From an on and off 45 years of experience, . . . I disagree:


1: Most important is accessability. You must be able to get a complete proper shooting grip in one movement. The trigger gaurd area needs to be cut so that your 3rd finger can be in the proper position at the top of the grip just behind the trigger gaurd. Many holsters have excessive material at this point. The extra material interfears with the grip position.


How it is cut is totally unimportant, . . . how it holds the weapon is what is important. A cheap holster will allow the wearer's belt, pants, or even the holster itself to get in the way because it is simply that, . . . a cheap holster that began with a poor design.

2: Belt retension: A secure belt attachment is needed so it will not come off the belt on withdraw. A thread thru belt loop is the best choice, even on a IWB type holster. A pain to get on but completely secure.
Also it is nice to have some rotation within the belt fit so that in different seating positions the holster can be slightly rotated to accomadate this.


Yes, . . . it must be secure to your belt, . . . but snap loops and even some paddles are as functional as a full belt tunnel.

If your holster rotates on your belt, . . . it is a loose, floppy, insecure and most likely, . . . apt to lose the weapon onto the floor or ground. The weapon must not rotate.

The desired "seating" movement is accomplished by sliding it forward or rearward, . . . or pulling your britches up a tad.


3: Retension: An adjustable retension is so it can be adjusted to have a secure hold but not too hard to withdraw.


If you have to have a tension adjusting device on your holster, then you have a cheap chinese holster made for any one of 37 Heinz varieties.

4: Proper cant and ride : Finding the correct placement of the weapon that is the best angle and height so that it is within your arms natural motion and angle.


You can put the holster and the handgun almost any place on your body that you can reach, . . . and if you are willing to take the time to practice with it, . . . it can become as simple as tying your shoes. Attempting to replace practice values with equipment values is a losing game from the start.

May God bless,
Dwight

Japle
May 9, 2011, 12:43 PM
They conceal pretty well with my pistols but you just can't do a draw under a second most of the time and even then you have to be standing.

Few people can draw in less than a second under any circumstances. I was ROing at a steel match this weekend and kept an eye on how long it took shooters to get the first shot off. Only one beat the one-second mark and he was shooting an Open gun from a CRSpeed holster. Several did it with .22 pistols and carbines because they started from “low ready”. No one drawing from an actual holster beat one second. Typically, their draws ran from 1.2 to 1.8 seconds depending on the size of the first target and the distance.

There’s a “professional trainer” who posts on gun forums a lot and claims he can draw and get off an accurate shot in 0.8 sec from an IWB holster with a polo shirt over it.
I don’t believe him for 0.8 sec.

Getting a gun out from concealment in less than 1.5 sec is pretty good speed.

Tom Servo
May 9, 2011, 12:47 PM
I think "printing" is given a little to much weight at times. Ive carried a gun everyday most of my adult life, and have found most people you encounter day to day are pretty much oblivious to what goes on around them.
Same here. Presentation matters. I don't go around in a Glock hat and a "Protected by S&W" T-shirt. I just look like a vaguely bookish middle-age guy. In 20-odd years of carrying, I've only been "made" twice. Once was by someone who ran up and hugged me, and the other was by a very eagle-eyed police officer who noticed it when I bent over at the waist.

I'm fairly slim, I carry OWB, and I usually carry a medium to large gun under an untucked shirt.

Of course, where I live, there is no consequence to being spotted. If I'm reading the OP's profile correctly, he could be in real trouble where he lives. In that case, concealment would certainly trump a fast draw.

micromontenegro
May 9, 2011, 01:17 PM
Probably different viewpoints from different parts of the world. But my worries would never be if the everyday people around me noticed, but if the BG who is planning a hit on me, and is/has been carefully studying me and my habits notices I am carrying. That I don't want.

kazanski612
May 9, 2011, 02:21 PM
You really have to try to "print noticeably". That's because, no matter how you're packing, no one will notice.

I carried a 4” M-29 in an OWB holster along with 2 speedloaders for a month just for fun. At 5’9” and 145 lbs, it was obvious as hell. It stuck out a mile. No one noticed a thing.

Printing is a total non-issue. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to spend their time examining you. No one’s looking for guns. No one will notice any bulges under your clothes.

I've been carrying daily since 1988, always OWB and usually under a shirt, since it's hot here. I carry full-size guns - 1911, G17, XD .45, etc. Never a problem, even though I don't take any special care to hide the gun.
+1. Seriously, you could put on jeans and stuff an AR in your pants and walk straight through downtown and I'd bet $10 that not one person says a thing. They may look at you funny, but they'll write it off as some strange college hoops injury.

I used to be paranoid about printing, but now unless my shirt is actually wind-blown up and over my pistol, I'm good.

BlueTrain
May 9, 2011, 02:26 PM
I agree completely and the point is not made all that often around here. You don't have to worry about (most of) the people you are in contact with from day to day but the ones that are the problem will have their eye on you and will probably have a practiced eye for detecting a concealed handgun.

Unfortunately we can't usually achieve the fast draws like the Lone Ranger could and from concealment, probably not under a second and nowhere near that if we are not in a loose, standing position--with a free hand. However, the real problem is probably that we would be starting well behind the curve in the first place.

Mudinyeri
May 9, 2011, 04:04 PM
Typically, their draws ran from 1.2 to 1.8 seconds depending on the size of the first target and the distance.

Occasionally, when I shoot with a buddy who has a timer, I'll time my IWB draw and first shot. I'm generally in the 1.2 - 1.4 second range drawing from a CrossBreed IWB holster with no special accommodations for my clothing - meaning I don't "dress for the occasion".

I don't consider myself particularly fast, but I would think the practice necessary to get from 1.2 down to 0.8 would be a LOT more than to get from 3.2 down to 1.2.

As far as printing goes ... I regularly wear Under Armour (Heat Gear), Nike (Dri Fit) and Columbia (Titanium) shirts made from very thin material in the summer. I've never once been "busted" for printing under one of these shirts.

Edit: BlueTrain's point is well taken that we most likely will not be in a position of alert, unencumbered readiness (as I am when I'm waiting for the timer's buzzer to go off) when we need to draw our weapon from concealment.

BlueTrain
May 10, 2011, 05:44 AM
The fact that we would not usually be in an unencumbered "ready" position might be taken as something important when thinking about a carry method but I wonder. While we might think that we are in some danger in a restaurant, sitting and eating, more likely we would actually be standing or on the move when in a place where there is greater than the usual risk of attack. If we are at home, inside, anyway, we are rather more relaxed (or even asleep) than we would be in other places and consequently we wouldn't have our guard up the way we would in other places.

So, in other words, it probably isn't worth thinking about how difficult it is to make a fast draw when you are on the sofa watching television or reading the Wall Street Journal. However, if you otherwise spend a lot of time sitting, like truck drivers, and are still concerned about your readiness, you will probably think more about alternative carry positions than I would.

Now, as far as noticing goes, here's something I've mentioned before. A child will notice before an adult because a child is not inhibited about staring at someone, but an adult will probably avoid looking too closely. Mind you, I have noticed a lot of young women who were having trouble concealing things properly, so I guess the rule doesn't always hold.

moose_nukelz
May 10, 2011, 10:04 AM
There is no one correct answer, part of the trade off for more concealment is more work getting your weapon to a position to fire. Remember when drawing, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Find a setup that works for you, take a defensive handgun course so you get some instruction on a proper draw from what ever carry position you use and practice it over and over.

There is also no rule that you have to stand there flat footed if/when you draw in a defensive situation. Step off to one side to change the angle and create a little more space. Practice shooting from the hip at close ranges then move out and see how far you can accurately hit targets. I would rather clip a guy once or twice when he is coming in rather than let him close the distance before I get to full presentation.

darwins
May 10, 2011, 10:34 AM
This has been an interesting thread to me because I have been looking for a carry piece and have wondered how I want to carry and what I need to do. I've even bought a few shirts that are cut like Hawaiian shirts for the purpose but still haven't yet picked up a gun for carry. Anyway, I do have a few thoughts to share on printing.

I'm glad to hear that I shouldn't have to worry too much about printing. However, there was an incident in Las Vegas recently where a man carrying concealed (legally) was detected by somebody in the store who called police. The man made a couple of mistakes that got him killed.

First, he made a spectacle of himself in the store when he got upset about something, drawing attention to himself and making people around him uncomfortable.

Second, when he exited the store, the police were waiting for him and instead of following the officers' instructions, he lifted his shirt to show them he was armed. An officer interpreted that movement as an attempt to draw his firearm.

What I gleaned from this was:
1) as was pointed out by an earlier poster, don't draw attention to yourself.
2) you need to be prepared to be suddenly and unexpectedly confronted by police officers in case somebody does notice you are carrying because you are printing or have carelessly or inadvertently revealed your firearm. You may want to do some mental practice on how you will respond to officers so as to clearly present yourself as a non-threat. When something like this happens, it can be confusing and you may not even be understanding what the officers are telling you to do.

moose_nukelz
May 10, 2011, 03:30 PM
You may want to do some mental practice on how you will respond to officers so as to clearly present yourself as a non-threat. When something like this happens, it can be confusing and you may not even be understanding what the officers are telling you to do.

I am a police officer and the thing we like the least is surprises that include sudden movements with the hands. If you are carrying and law enforcement comes up to talk to you, put your hands up in plain view and let them know you where you have your weapon AND where your ID/permit is. They will give you further instructions at that point.

Sleuth
May 10, 2011, 04:51 PM
When you start to carry CCW, you also have to modify how you do certain things - like bending over. I have learned NEVER to bend from the waist, always bend my knees. There are also a lot of 'tells' for when someone is carrying, like the 'clunk' when they sit down in a booth or pew with a hard back.

One of the things the new guys have to learn is stop touching your gun! You can see them, constantly touching with their hand or elbow to make sure their gun is still there. Wear your exact gear around the house until you are completely comfortable with it. Then FORGET IT.

And if you are dressed for the area you are in, with a heavy enough crowd on the street, and walk as if you know what you are doing, you can carry your gun in your hand at your side, and no one will notice! I did this more than once when I was a plain clothes LEO.

BTW, the material of your shirt is also a factor, lightweight, clingy shirts will print when a heavier weave shirt wil not.

Sleuth
May 10, 2011, 05:02 PM
When you start to carry CCW, you also have to modify how you do certain things - like bending over. I have learned NEVER to bend from the waist, always bend my knees. There are also a lot of 'tells' for when someone is carrying, like the 'clunk' when they sit down in a booth or pew with a hard back.

One of the things the new guys have to learn is stop touching your gun! You can see them, constantly touching with their hand or elbow to make sure their gun is still there. Wear your exact gear around the house until you are completely comfortable with it. Then FORGET IT.

And if you are dressed for the area you are in, with a heavy enough crowd on the street, and walk as if you know what you are doing, you can carry your gun in your hand at your side, and no one will notice! I did this more than once when I was a plain clothes LEO.

BTW, the material of your shirt is also a factor, lightweight, clingy shirts will print when a heavier weave shirt wil not.

BlueTrain
May 11, 2011, 06:24 AM
I think that carrying a pistol in a reversed position (meaning with the butt forward on the right hand side for a right handed person) allows a marginally greater concealment for more body movements like bending over but it comes with disadvantages. It is a little slower on the draw but more importantly, you will end up pointing it at your own body as you make the draw. For that reason it is probably not to be recommended but for an inside-waistband carry, it is pretty much pointed at your hip anyway.

Alternatively, a crossdraw position allows the same thing, only if the pistol is far enough back to achieve the level of concealment you are trying for in the first place (for the primary weapon), it becomes that much harder to reach.

As far as touching the pistol "to see if it is still there," I understand. I find myself constantly touching or patting my wallet for the same reason when I carry it in a pants pocket, which I don't usually do. I might go back to carrying a purse.

Doc Intrepid
May 11, 2011, 07:02 AM
For my purposes, concealed carry comes down to 2 truths --

1. If a civilian ever needs a gun, odds are that they'll need it very badly, very quickly.

2. An efficient carry mode allows re-holstering the firearm after shots are fired nearly as rapidly as the draw.


Any carry mode (think a fabric holster in tight jeans) that prevents a fast, effective draw offers many opportunities to fumble the draw in a high-anxiety response. As pointed out above, confrontations may not evolve into range-shooting-line stances and readiness.

Some of these "deep cover" concealment options indeed do a nice job of concealment, but in doing so they require convoluted effort to present the firearm rapidly and re-holstering it one-handed afterwards is virtually impossible. Some may argue that what they do with their pistol after a shooting incident is immaterial, however, I'm of the opinion that standing around with a pistol in your hand is not optimal, and re-holstering it is probably a better choice.

My opinions have guided my carry choices...

YMMV.

BlueTrain
May 11, 2011, 07:29 AM
Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not really disagreeing with you. But some high quality leather holsters, especially those that are hand molded, can be difficult to make a fast draw from, at least when they're new. I've been experimenting with an almost new Gould & Goodrich belt holster for my Walther P5. It has a thumb snap but the fit at the moment is very tight and while not exactly fumble producing, you have to be very deliberate about your movements to get the gun out and it isn't even a concealment type holster. So basically the holster is an important part of your setup.

To say a confrontation will not be a shooting range circumstance is an understatement. Besides, many of us here, I suspect, have field conditions in mind more than anything else. But I'm no so sure that a fast re-holstering is nearly so important, and with some pistols, extra care is advised.

kazanski612
May 11, 2011, 08:48 AM
I think that carrying a pistol in a reversed position (meaning with the butt forward on the right hand side for a right handed person) allows a marginally greater concealment for more body movements like bending over but it comes with disadvantages.
Do you mean a standard 15-degree forward cant? Sometimes known as the FBI tilt. http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/_questions.html#7 and http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/Molding_on_front_of_holster/Foward_Cant/foward_cant.html

Don P
May 11, 2011, 08:59 AM
Just wanted some opinions on the tactics of different holsters.


Its best to change the way you dress when you carry. Lose fitting shirts un tucked if possible.

BlueTrain
May 11, 2011, 09:16 AM
To kazanski612, I meant a reverse draw, sometimes called a cavalry draw (or rather, a reverse carry). With this method, the pistol will generally be in a straight position with no tilt. The butt, which is usually the give-away sign of a hidden weapon, is to the front rather than to the rear. To execute a draw, you reach to the rear with the palm to the outside to grasp the pistol grip. It sounds a little awkward and frankly, it is. And when you are making the draw, the muzzle will almost certainly be pointing at some part of your body momentarily. However, that's also true with some other more common methods, too, which is why sometimes people shoot themselves in the foot or leg. In any case, the only advantage is slightly better concealment, plus you won't have the butt or grip of the pistol banging into things when you sit down.

BGutzman
May 11, 2011, 09:26 AM
I wear ugly Hawaiian shirts in the summer, if you can print on a shirt like this, then your carrying a DE .50 cal, a Ruger with a 7" bbl, or an .88 caliber that can shoot through schools

That was the ugliest shirt Ive ever seen.. LOL thanks for sharing.

Dwight55
May 11, 2011, 10:12 AM
Blue Train said: I meant a reverse draw, sometimes called a cavalry draw (or rather, a reverse carry).........In any case, the only advantage is slightly better concealment, plus you won't have the butt or grip of the pistol banging into things when you sit down

What you said is true but let me make a slight addition: it also makes the handgun very accessable to either hand.

One of my "fears" is that my right hand/arm could be engaged or disabled, . . . and as nimble and flexible as I am, . . . it is still hard for me to access the gun with my left hand.

I have friends and associates who could not access their hangun with their off hand at all, . . . period.

There is a writer who put out an excellent book on being armed some years back, . . . I read it quickly, . . . he was living in Israel at the time, . . . carried two 1911's butt forward (one on each hip) and something near 6 spare mags.

Our "out West" cavalry carried their old Colts that way in their black flap holsters.

May God bless,
Dwight

BlueTrain
May 11, 2011, 11:02 AM
Somewhere there are photos of cavalry troopers in the 1890s, probably 10th or maybe 11th Cavalry (all black units), armed with .38 Colt DA revolvers. Most of them had the flap turned back and tucked behind the holster and some had the revolver inserted backwards, that is, with the butt to the rear for a regular Western fast draw. They had their own ideas, I guess.

While in theory, it is possible to make a draw (can't bring myself to say "presentation") with either hand when carried like that, in a typical just-behind-the-hipbone position, I can't easily do that when wearing some clothes. It is possible but difficult, though better than nothing, I guess. Of course, it is also possible to reach your pistol carried in the usual over the hip pocket position with the other hand by reaching behind your back. Not easy, not fast but possible.

Sleuth
May 11, 2011, 01:02 PM
Doc, I strongly disagree with the "reverse draw" model.
The main difference is from a strong side him position, as the gun is drawn it may briefly point at your leg and foot (depending upon many factors - body shape, size, holster, etc.) An ND into those parts is usually not life threatening.

The reverse draw has you pointing your gun at your vital organs at the most stressful time most of us will ever face. An ND during that period will have major negative outcomes for you - possibly including your death.

And having been 'in harms way' a number of times in my life, I believe the odds of having my strong side arm/hand unavailable are far less than the possibility of an ND from the reverse draw.

BTW, the Cavalry carried their pistols like that because the sword was still considered their primary weapon. The pistol was only for use if they had 'lost or broken' their sword. The pistol was to be employed by the off hand, while the strong hand held sword, or controlled the horse.

BlueTrain
May 11, 2011, 02:51 PM
I agree with your statements about the dangers of a reverse carry but similiar dangers remain with most conventional carries. I don't think it increases the liklihood of an accident but if one happened, it would be of a more serious nature. That's for sure. Accidents with revolvers were rather common back when Western-style fast draw was a popular sport. You could buy a Hollywood style holster with a bullet deflector.

Regarding the old cavalry holsters, I believe the US Cavalry were the only mounted troops that carried their handguns like that. I think it is more likely that it was a more comfortable carry for a mounted man. I have one I had made for a S&W Model 10 revolver and it is more convenient and comfortable for many situations but by no stretch of the imagination can you do anything like a quick draw from one. Mine came from El Paso leather. I also happen to have a photo of my father wearing a reverse draw holster with (presumably) a Model 1917 .45 revolver, the photo taken probably in 1945. He had been drafted and was 31 years old.

While it often pointed out that the German army issued more pistols than anyone, in actuality, the US Cavalry issued revolvers and later pistols to all troopers. They quit using swords in the early 1930s. Other armies tended not to issue pistols or revolvers so generously.

Japle
May 11, 2011, 03:15 PM
From Chic Gaylord's Handgunner's Guide:

"HIGH CAVALRY DRAW: This is the draw from the traditional holster. It is the only belt-type holster from which a single-action fast draw can be made while seated at a poker table, which undoubtedly accounted for its use by gamblers and gun fighters.

"The cavalry draw as used by John Wesley Hardin, Wild Bill Hickok, and Doc Holliday, is the fastest known method of drawing and firing a single-action[revolver]. It is the rarest of draws today because so few will take the time to master it. It takes longer to show results than with the more conventional tied-down holster draw. This draw requires a scabbard held high with an extreme forward tilt. The revolver is held with the butt reversed and is worn just behind the right hip. The draw is begun by raising the elbow almost to shoulder height, then slamming the hand back onto the reversed gun butt with the thumb across the hammer. The gun is then thrown forward out of the holster as the elbow is snapped down to the side. This whips the gun around into firing position. The weight of the gun against the thumb cocks the gun with no conscious effort on the shooter's part. All that's left for you is to fire. The gun should be fired the instant it is on target."

This is almost never seen today, because the shooter "sweeps" his own body in drawing the gun. :eek:

Also, packing a single-action sixgun while playing poker has gone out of fashion. ;)

BlueTrain
May 12, 2011, 05:35 AM
I was thinking about Chic Gaylord last night because he mentions a lot of unorthodox carry methods, some of which he rightly criticized. His book, which is a little dated, came out in the middle of the Western fast draw craze of the 1950s and like others at the same time, he apparently took it seriously and included photos of a guy in Western clothes demonstrating a fast draw. Also of interest, if I am remembering correctly, were photos of some relatively popular handguns that are almost forgotten today, or at least they don't get mentioned around here. Hi Standard made a double action .22 revolver made to look like a single action.

His book was also the only popular book on the subject of guns to actually include photos of bullet wounds in people. They don't look all that impressive or even at all gruesome but the subjects were all dead.

Anybody here still tie down their holster?

Sleuth
May 12, 2011, 11:15 AM
When using Gaylord as a reference, keep in mind the cut, style, and materials of clothing in the 50's.
Cut - large
Styles - men did not go out without wearing a suitcoat and a hat, even in summer.
Materials - Mostly wool, heavy weight.

You could hide a 4" .357 N frame in your pants pocket in those days.

FireForged
May 14, 2011, 08:07 PM
I try not to overthink it, my only requirement is that my method of carry is not considered by me, to be a difficult draw in reasonable positions. I mean, if I am in a inverted negative G dive into a dumpster under heavy fire and cant reach my 4 oclock while in mid-air, Im not going to try and carry differently just to compensate for a unusually freakish situation.

I know guys that "what if" themselves into a corner and end up not carrying at all because its not a perfect situation. Its all a negotiation.

tgreening
May 15, 2011, 10:50 AM
I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one that doesn't get overly concerned about printing. I take reasonable precautions and then forget about it. I'm of the mind that the vast majority aren't going to notice regardless, and of the percentage that are going to notice, they're going to notice, well, regardless.

I don't hold with the loud Hawaiian shirt mindset because unless you're hanging out at beachfront property all the time, you're standing out. Sometimes the very act of trying to camouflage something alerts people to the fact that something is indeed trying to be hidden. Mostly by those people who are likely to notice anyway, and the loud shirt will only draw their attention. The others wouldn't have noticed to begin with.

I carry OWB at this point. Sometimes with a loose T dropped over, sometimes tucked T with an open short sleeved shirt on top, sometimes vest, etc etc. After that I don't worry about it too much.


I know there are folks that say "in a hunnerd years of carry I've never been made" bun truth be told you are probably kidding yourself. Just because no one has ever mentioned it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, it only means you have never knowingly been discovered. Big difference.

I was discovered a few weeks ago when visiting friends house and he introduced me to one of his relatives. The relative never said anything to me but he mentioned it to his cousin who in turn passed it on to me. Turns out the guy is a firearms enthusiast and naturally more aware then most, just like many in here are more likely to notice those who carry.

Didn't bother me much as odds are that's not the kind of person you need to worry about anyway.

Sleuth
May 15, 2011, 01:08 PM
One advantage to modern times: Folks are carrying cell phones, iPods, PDA's, etc. etc all the time. Bulges under the shirts are more common than ever.

One friend was challenged about his handgun - he told the guy it was his colostomy bag - end of conversation!

egor20
May 21, 2011, 10:56 PM
It is your insistence upon using a belt gun in a belt rig that is causing this dilemma for you, and preventing you from having the option of having your hand on your gun, while it is still concealed.


HUH????

Sleuth
May 24, 2011, 10:23 AM
Amazing that one poster can analyze someone else's carry techniques without ever have seen him/her!

BlueTrain
May 24, 2011, 12:11 PM
Not to disagree too much, but during Gaylord's time men often did leave the house without a coat and tie (but rarely without a hat or cap) and I assure you, heavy woolens are not worn year round, especially in Arizona. And pants were not so full cut that an N-frame revolver could be carried without notice in a pocket. However, I take your point that clothing was cut more generously than it was ten years later but think how baggy a lot of clothing is now and informal (or sloppy) a lot of people dress most of the time.

P97
May 24, 2011, 12:27 PM
Since I'm an old Fart, I consider my good, heavy, Hickory Cane, a very important part of my CC makeup. If I am in very close quarters, the Cane will be more useful than the gun, until I get room to use the gun.

dabo
May 29, 2011, 10:23 AM
Interestingly, in Florida right now, there is a law in the works for open carry; the purpose of which is more to protect CCW folks who inadvertantly "flash" their gun unintentionally, like bending over in a store or something, rather than for actual open carry. A few folks have been prosecuted for "open carry" in such instances... I'll keep y'all posted on the law's progress...

Japle
May 29, 2011, 11:09 AM
Interestingly, in Florida right now, there is a law in the works for open carry; the purpose of which is more to protect CCW folks who inadvertantly "flash" their gun unintentionally, like bending over in a store or something, rather than for actual open carry. A few folks have been prosecuted for "open carry" in such instances...

The bill passed and has gone to the Governor.

The last I heard, several people were hauled in for inadvertant "flashing" , but no one has been prosecuted.

Sleuth
May 29, 2011, 01:33 PM
AZ has changed the legal definition of Brandishing to cover (pun intended) this kind of thing.