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geetarman
May 4, 2011, 04:47 PM
Take a look at this video. I saw it on the news at noon and found a link.

Look what happens at about 1 minute into the video.

Anyone care to count the number of shots fired?

This is scary.

Geetarman:D

http://www.officer.com/video/10261885/video-wisconsin-fatal-police-shootout

DiscoRacing
May 4, 2011, 05:17 PM
Holly Crap...sounds like they unloaded two ARs on him.

Shooter4Life
May 4, 2011, 05:49 PM
I think the scariest part of the encounter is where it took place. Appears to be a residential neighborhood with lots of houses directly behind the bad guy. I'm thankfull noone but the bad guy was injured. Thank you to the officers for getting him off the streets.

Glenn Dee
May 4, 2011, 06:01 PM
I think they were using one of those guns from the old cowboy movies... never run out of bullets.

Double Naught Spy
May 4, 2011, 06:02 PM
Holly Crap...sounds like they unloaded two ARs on him.

Naw, just hi cap pistols.

Four officers fired back. One had been shot in the foot. The shooter was a very bad dude, not the brightest brick in the stack, but very bad.
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/article_aa3caa94-7604-11e0-afb4-001cc4c03286.html

A bit more vid...
http://www.wkrg.com/caught_on_camera/article/caught-on-tape-police-shootout/1206683/May-04-2011_1-45-pm/

geetarman
May 4, 2011, 07:06 PM
Just goes to show things can go awry in no time at all. The officers are fortunate.

Geetarman:D

mnero
May 4, 2011, 08:36 PM
Now that is a fire fight, fast and scary! You couldn't pay me enough to be a street cop. Too dangerous and too damn stressfull:cool: If that idiot wanted to commit suicide he should have just done it; rather then making some poor cops have to do it.

Double Naught Spy
May 5, 2011, 06:42 AM
The guy wasn't out to commit suicide. Maybe you didn't watch the video, but he was attempting to escape.

gearhounds
May 5, 2011, 06:55 AM
Thank goodness the BG got stuck, or this could have turned into a bigger nightmare. Happy to see this guy taken out.

Seaman
May 5, 2011, 07:05 AM
"...McCloskey was a suspect in an earlier drive-by shooting in Tomah in which no one was hurt. Police have said he may be linked to as many as 10 other seemingly random drive-by shootings across Wisconsin and Illinois...." [Jessica Larsen / Tomah Journal lacrossetribune.com | Posted: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 12:15 am]

Couple of years ago I stopped visiting Illinois (and Wisconsin) since both states do not honor my carry license. Sure wouldn't want that perp shooting at me with no way to protect myself.

Good to hear no police officers or bystanders were killed.

chadstrickland
May 5, 2011, 08:23 AM
First of all im really glad that no cops or innocent people got killed....and before I say anything eles I have never been in any situation like that and I don't know how I would have reacted or if I could think clearly with all the stress and adrenaline..however you guys have got to admit that in a suburb with houses all around them you wouldn't have sit there and emptied your mag on a truck I mean every bullet you fire is a chance of hitting someone I like how they shot out the tires and stuff....but that was a complete and utter cluster..a combination of bad aim and even worse tactics..that was pure luck that truck got stuck and nobody eles got killed

Spats McGee
May 5, 2011, 09:04 AM
. . . .Anyone care to count the number of shots fired?
A boatload! That was a whole lotta bullets, in a very short time.

markj
May 5, 2011, 03:20 PM
Well this justre inforces my saying never shoot at a cop. What was he thinking? they would let him leave after shooting at them?

Sent this to my cousin he retired 2 years ago from Omahas force. My other cousin on the force since the 60s is still working part time at a desk. Never had to clear leather in all his years on the force.

C0untZer0
May 5, 2011, 04:42 PM
I don't think the truck got stuck, it looks to me like 2 things happened simultaneusly - the tires were shot out and the driver was shot also.

I could be wrong. But when I look at where his rear tires are - it doesn't look like he's in a ditch.

I don't know...

The police officers sent a ton a lead in that guy's direction.

PanBaccha
May 5, 2011, 05:24 PM
I just wonder how many shots hit the residential house in front of them?

gearhounds
May 5, 2011, 05:45 PM
"I don't think the truck got stuck"

Look at the video again; the truck lurches back and visibly drops, then the air is filled with white smoke from the tire turning in place, burning rubber. Also, look at the tail light area; he actually went back and forth between drive and reverse trying to break free. I can't decide if he was trying to ram the cruiser, or get away from the obstruction keeping him trapped, but I think he was thinking escape. If he could gotten free, the chase takes on a new, more dangerous dimension.

C0untZer0
May 5, 2011, 05:57 PM
Now that I look at it closer I guess he did get stuck.

I am wondering if he dug himself in by slamming on the accelerator.

He was stupid to get out of the truck without putting in park, or putting the parking break on - not sure if he had a manual or not.

Probably was making mental mistakes cuz his mind was racing. Also, if he'd have stopped at a different corner - or in front of the telephone pole & fire hydrant he wouldn't have had to put the truck in reverse, he could have just driven forward.

Well, if the bad guys were all really smart they probably would be working for a fortune 500 company embezzling for a living.

jimbob86
May 5, 2011, 06:00 PM
I don't think the truck got stuck,

It appeared to me that the perp/doofus got out of his vehichle while it was still in drive and sprayed a 1/2 dozen shots at the cop .... meanwhile, his vehichle rolled forward to the pole. The perp turns to get back in and has to turn and run to get back in. At this point the officers begin returning fire, possibly hitting him. He re-enters the vehichle and the officers continue to hose it down with bullets. He he jumps on the gas, oblivious to the fact that the truck is not going to push through the utility pole.... causing the tires to smoke- you can hear the engine roaring ..... When the back window is shot out at about 1:12, you can still see him sitting up...... for 10 seconds or so, while he continues to try to drive through the telephone pole...... all the while the officers are shooting at him. Betcha he caught a slug in the back of the head......


.... I'd sure hate to have been in the house directly behind the perp's vehichle.

Yankee Traveler
May 5, 2011, 06:04 PM
. I can't decide if he was trying to ram the cruiser, or get away from the obstruction keeping him trapped.

I figured his ticket had just been punched and he was leaning on the throttle

Double Naught Spy
May 5, 2011, 06:08 PM
He was stuck, but I can't tell if he was somehow hung up with the phone pole (pun) on the front end as the truck does lurch and stops and then the white smoke does occur, or what exactly happened, but the truck stopped very abruptly without brakes being applied.

The way the truck pivots the back end and not the front, after further review of the vid, it does seem that the front end was somehow hung up, maybe the bumper or based on how it pivoted, the left front wheel.

mnero
May 5, 2011, 07:27 PM
Double naught that suicide comment was a joke; as in taking on those cops was suicide;)

C0untZer0
May 5, 2011, 09:13 PM
The two other things I thought of were if they thought this vehicle was connected to a drive-by shooting wouldn't they get more bacup - at least get another squad car out there for backup before pulling him over?

It didn't seem to me that I heard the BOOM of a shotgun. I would have thought that when you were going into a situation involving a possible shooter they would come out with the 12ga

JohnKSa
May 5, 2011, 09:40 PM
He stumbles somewhere around the 7-9th shot of return fire. I suspect he was injured at least once before he got back in his truck. What happened from that point forward probably can't be easily explained by trying to guess what a rational and uninjured person would have done.

There's some speculation that the shooter, Seth McCloskey, may have been the I-90 shooter.

http://www.wrex.com/Global/story.asp?S=14528265The two other things I thought of were if they thought this vehicle was connected to a drive-by shooting wouldn't they get more bacup - at least get another squad car out there for backup before pulling him over?There were 4 officers present for the shootout.

jimbob86
May 5, 2011, 09:43 PM
at least get another squad car out there for backup before pulling him over?



The silver car is a plain brown wrapper, is it not? I thought I saw blinking lights in the rear window as the squad car passed it early on.....

Dre_sa
May 5, 2011, 09:46 PM
By my count, there were approximately 60 shots fired total, given what I heard in the video. That includes the BG who put out 5 or 6 rounds.

That's about as accurate as I'm willing to get the count without spending another hour counting over and over...
:rolleyes:

C0untZer0
May 5, 2011, 11:24 PM
When I first read that the driver was a suspect in a drive-by, I thought it was gang related, or organized crime or something.

But this guy was just shooting into houses, just random. it's kind of a different meaning to "drive-by"

On the one hand I think hardened criminal engaging in 'business', but just shooting into homes randomly, I think mentally ill or on drugs or both.

LockedBreech
May 6, 2011, 12:12 AM
One of the comments in here said they should have been more sparing with shots fired. You are chasing a guy. You think maybe car chase, maybe just a DUI or something of the sort, and then a guy is attempting to murder you.

You won't be counting rounds. You won't be making clear strategic decisions. You'll be fighting for your life. Training helps a lot, but in certain situations human nature just takes over.

Glenn Dee
May 6, 2011, 12:40 AM
Cant agree with you Law Scholar

IMO this is what seperates professionals, from the every day Joe. The police are and should be professionals. Well trained, and disciplined. We have members who although they arent Police have trained on a professional level. I dont believe the police sprayed and prayed in this situation, but used the technique of cover by fire.

With none of us knowing the complete set of circumstances, we can only comment based on opinion, and our own experience, and training. It did seem like quite a few rounds fired by the police. But the firing seemed controlled, directed, and corrected. But thats just my opinion based on my own experience, and training.

Glenn D.

C0untZer0
May 6, 2011, 12:47 AM
Law Scholar didn't say the police should have shot more sparingly - he's just commenting on that statement.

I think as soon as a perp opens fire the police should put as many rounds in him as quickly as possible. If he goes down and is incapacitated then fine, but I think if there are 4 police there and a guy fires on them - all 4 should return fire to try to put him down. If there are 6 police there - all six should return fire to put him down. if there are 8 police there then all eight should return fire, and if they had shotguns they should have been using those too.

Double Naught Spy
May 6, 2011, 07:21 AM
Wow Gleen Dee, you got a lot more out of the firing in that video that I did. They didn't spray and pray, I don't think either, but I also don't think they were engaged in "cover by fire" given that the suspect was not shooting at them when they engaged him, nor did he appear to be trying to shoot at them. Instead, it just appears that they were trying to unload as much as need on the suspect's location in the vehicle, only a lot of the shots were well outside of the suspect's location (high) and we can tell how many just out and out missed everything.

LockedBreech
May 6, 2011, 09:45 AM
Glenn Dee, reread my post. We are in agreement. :)

Double Naught Spy, we should consider that the police didn't know the engagement was over. For all they knew, his pistol ran out of ammo so he was going back to the truck for an AR, or was putting his car in gear to turn it around and ram officers.

chadstrickland
May 6, 2011, 10:34 AM
I am in complete agreement that the cops should be disciplined professionals..however even saying that y'all know there had to be some slight panic and stress involved...I know that I probably couldn't be thinking text books responses to that particular situation and if the area had been rural I would have said to heck with him..unload on him with everything you got..but since it was in such a crowded neighborhood I would have been a little more careful..you guys cannot tell me some of those shots didn't go over that truck..and would you stand by your post if some 5 year old girl got killed while playing in her room?? ...I don't mean to critic...but as I said before..luck had alot to do with what happened and how it ended

Eagle0711
May 6, 2011, 12:24 PM
This guy may have been " loaded " because his first mistake was pulling in front of that car with the police behind him.

At any rate the gene pool has been cleaned by " natural selection ". I hope that he didn't have any offspring.

The cops shouldn't lose any sleep over this.

aryfrosty
May 6, 2011, 01:14 PM
I hope none of you will take umbrage at my remarks.
Unless and until you have been involved in an armed encounter you should refrain from negative comments concerning the conduct of Police Officers in a shooting.
Imagine that you answered a knock on your door tomorrow morning and a person asked you, "would you like to be an airline pilot"? And you say, yes, you always wanted to be one. Then they take you to the airport and put you in the left seat of a 737 and say, "there you go, guy." That isn't too far off track. That's pretty much what you get as a cop when they cover the subject of gunbattles. They can talk and talk and they can show you videos that illustrate the aftermath of shootings, both good and bad. But until you actually get into a gunfight no person alive can tell you how you will feel or act when it happens to you for the first time. How do you describe the sound of a close miss round and tell the Officer trainee that, "this means it's this far from you and you need to duck this way to avoid it or the other way if it sounds like this." You can tell an Officer trainee how it feels to be struck by a projectile fired from a gun...but how does that same trainee "KNOW" what it's like? You can tell them that, "this is what you do if you're shot". But they won't know. You put Cops on the street with a minimal of training and expect informed decisions. They are forced by exigencies to decide a rule of law in 20 seconds that lawyers will happily work for hours to prove them wrong.
Backstop? Absolutely! Unless... Most of the time the bad guy will determine where he makes his static point stand. Cops have to try to make the best of it and stay alive long enough to stop the maggot. Are they to give the suspect a "bye" if he stops in front of houses? OK. Say they do? How many people will climb the Officer's backs over allowing the suspect to "get away" and hurt someone else? I became a Cop in the south in 1971. Iretired because of a heart problem and went to work for the State Department of Safety as a civilian supervisor in Emergency Services and retired from there after a stroke in 2009.
I've been there... I will never try to second guess an Officer who uses deadly force, so If I don't then I believe you guys who have never been on the streets shouldn't either.
MMQB. Monday Morning Quarterbacking. See the "rule of law" remark above. If you folks really need to count rounds get some old reruns of "A-Team" and count the rounds down range from their Mini 14s. And NOBODY gets hit. Nobody dies! Nobody bleeds!
Like it has been said: "That's Nice but this is Life". Regards to all; Al

chadstrickland
May 6, 2011, 01:48 PM
As I have already stated before I have never been in a shoot out where bullets flew both ways..and I understand and agree with you..however my overall point was that the only reason this thing ended well ( well meaning no cops or innocent people got killed ) was dumb luck....and another thing...isn't this the purpose of tactics and training forum..I mean im not bad mouthing cops....but to just say that we shouldn't say anything when cops use deadly force other than yes those guys did everything perfectly...I understand that no decision in the field is perfect and that you have to do what seems best at the time and stick with it..and I also know that shoulda woulda coulda never did anything......except for give us training and how to learn from our mistakes...if nobody ever sat down and discussed what happened then nothing would ever change....im not no liberal loving panzy...just want to learn and see what could have been done differently...and I don't think it matters if it was hollow points or ball if it goes through a window or door....not trying to start some junk here..just trying to use this situation to learn somthing

markj
May 6, 2011, 01:54 PM
I just wonder how many shots hit the residential house in front of them?

But if they were hollow points..........

therewolf
May 6, 2011, 02:05 PM
First- this perp wasn't a "professional criminal". Guns or no, these guys make

90% of crime money, and are involved in less than 3% of overall gun crime.

Second- Lucky cops! Perhaps it was windshield deflection, probably it was just

remarkably poor shooting on behalf of the BG, thank goodness they came off OK.

Third-This guy obviously wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. It's hard

to think like a deranged criminal, but jumping out of your only

transportation while it's still moving, and in gear? Not the height of good

judgment,to put it kindly.

Of course, if this guy had any brains, he would have hit what he was aiming

at, so we were lucky not to lose a couple LEOs.

Double Naught Spy
May 6, 2011, 02:21 PM
Unless and until you have been involved in an armed encounter you should refrain from negative comments concerning the conduct of Police Officers in a shooting.

You know, I have never raced a train and tried to beat it at a track crossing, but I have no problem with evaluating what the driver did wrong. Whether or not a person has "been there" does not validate or invalidate their statements about knowing what is or is not correct. It may be helpful, or may introduce unnecessary bias.

However, if you stick by your comment that those of us who have never been involved in an armed encounter such as in the OP that we should refrain from negative comments, then by equal standard, none of us should engage in any positive comments either. If folks aren't qualified to make negative comments, then they sure as heck aren't qualified to make positive comments either, huh?

Uprangewilly
May 6, 2011, 02:50 PM
Did you see that S-10 or whatever that black pick-up was at the intersection? Once he realized what was happening he got the heck out of dodge! Can't blame him. Jeez.

NWPilgrim
May 6, 2011, 02:54 PM
What was really odd is that the perp exited the truck and then took a firing range stance in the open to attack the police officers. He appears to have spent a lot of time at the range practicing but only in the static, stand up and shoot paper manner.

Apparently he was used to doing drive by shootings at unprepared and surprised civilians and found his techniques does not work against a trained officer of the law.

Fortunately the police appear to have been better trained to use cover. I was also surprised how fast the police were able to return fire in volume. They were certainly prepared mentally for him to attack, good awareness and planning ahead.

Kudos to the police for having plenty of officers on the scene to handle the suspect, and being able to respond swiftly and accurately.

retiredcoasty
May 6, 2011, 05:23 PM
Frosty, here’s your quote, “Unless and until you have been involved in an armed encounter you should refrain from negative comments concerning the conduct of Police Officers in a shooting.”

Although I understand your position, using this logic, one cannot have an opinion on abortion unless they have been aborted.

And no one should have an opinion on the military unless they served in the military (22-year veteran tying this).

Etc… Sorry, but police, like the military, are public employees and ‘We the People’ have the right to speak their mind about those issues and more. The First Amendment reminds us that we have the God-given right to speak… but no one must listen and, unfortunately, none of us need be correct in our speech. I believe that the 2nd guessers are wrong, but they have the right to be wrong.

Glenn Dee
May 6, 2011, 05:58 PM
^^^555 Coasty

Dead on the money. The Police work for the people... and the people have every right to comment, and even hold police resposible for their actions.

Sorry LawScholar... I must have misread your post.

As far as the notion "if you have never been in a shoot out you dont know what you will do or how you will feel" I cant agree. Those who take the time to train, and practice will develop technique, and muscle memory that will stand them in good stead in an actual armed confrontation.

Again sorry for the misunderstanding LawScholar.

Glenn D.

chadstrickland
May 6, 2011, 06:20 PM
I don't suppose this is entirely off topic..or it may not be at all so here it goes..I agree with the above post to a degree...and that is that training and muscle memory will take over as im sure it probably would..but to achieve that you would have to have been trained in the same amount of stress and that fight for your life flicker of panic mixed with adrenaline typ rush you have...which I have felt before..and that is hard to get when you ain't fighting for your life...so how can you train for somthing like that situation..I mean I know some stress can be put on you but not that much....im not trying to burn anyone or anything..im just curious

Glenn Dee
May 7, 2011, 08:05 AM
Chad.... IMO, and experience... Training and Muscle memory will take over and trump stress, and panic. It works... It really does. I wholeheartedly believe people should train as they would fight. An GOD forbid they find themselves in a deadly pickle.... they will IMO fight like they trained.
But thats just my opinion.

MLeake
May 7, 2011, 09:43 AM
Glen Dee, it sure seems to work that way with flying. Difference between the pro and the hobbyist is best seen when the weather goes to dog crap, an engine fails, or something starts spewing smoke in the cabin.

geetarman
May 7, 2011, 10:17 AM
It really sucks to run out of altitude, airspeed and ideas at the same time.

Geetarman;)

gearhounds
May 7, 2011, 10:20 AM
"Training and Muscle memory will take over and trump stress, and panic."

+1; you are most likely to experience panic and stress after the incident passes if you train body and mind properly.

chadstrickland
May 7, 2011, 12:00 PM
I value your experience and opinions and after giving it some thought I am inclined to agree with you and maybe relate to y'all in a manner...where I work at I service cars..once learned nothing major ever changes you just do the same thing over and over and every now and then ill be lost in thought workin on a car and next thing I know im finished with it..with no memory of doing everything..maybe bits and pieces..I suppose that's subconscious muscle memory or somthing idk..but I suppose if I traied that much then something similar would happen

JohnKSa
May 7, 2011, 12:41 PM
but I suppose if I trained that much then something similar would happenIt would indeed. The key is to train WELL using proper techniques and building good muscle memory so that when the automatic takes over GOOD things happen. Training poorly or not training means that when the automatic takes over what happens is often not very productive at all.

blackriderhank
May 7, 2011, 12:51 PM
Job well done by LEO's

Adam21
May 8, 2011, 04:55 PM
Glad to see the officers were alright. He must have thought "Okay, I get out, shoot a few times, scare them, jump back in my car, and get away." Should have kept him around to train the SEAL combat driving school.

chadstrickland
May 8, 2011, 09:09 PM
My eyes have opened just a little bit more...before now I havnt been able to fully comprehended the lessons I have been taught but now after going over this I think I will add some new material to my training...( which is self taught with the help of books and a few seal dvds )....when its all you got..its all you got :)

markj
May 9, 2011, 03:06 PM
Just make sure them engines are full of oil chad :) former mechanic here. LOL

justjim75
May 11, 2011, 12:15 AM
there's no way i would have shot that many rounds at someone running away with a house behind them. ricochets, misses, the legality of shooting a man in the back. i think with two cars and the man being stuck they might could've stopped him without risking that hypothetical 5 yr olds life. glad about the actual results but if a non LE civillian had done it they'd be in prison.

aryfrosty
May 11, 2011, 12:43 AM
But I'm not sure where you got the "hypothetical 5 year old" or the idea that it's illegal to shoot the criminal in "the back". Your hypothetical bystander is overruled by the factual suspect who is using deadly force against the Officers. If I am in a gunfight for my life I will/would shoot the bad guy in the toe...in the ear...in the back...in the front. Wherever it takes shooting him to stop the threat to the Officers and the public. This isn't the movies where all shooters stop while everyone reloads and then asks if it's OK with all parties if we resume fire. The bad guy suspended the "rules of fair play" when he opened fire on the Officers. I am not trying to offend you but I iterate my earlier statement that unqualified persons really should not criticize Officers who do the dirty work.

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2011, 07:41 AM
Right, there are no laws in the US that stipulate where a person can or cannot be shot during the use of lethal force where lethal force is justified. You can shoot them in the back. You can shoot them while they run.

gearhounds
May 11, 2011, 08:19 AM
"Right, there are no laws in the US that stipulate where a person can or cannot be shot during the use of lethal force where lethal force is justified. You can shoot them in the back. You can shoot them while they run."

Exactly right; when deadly force is called for, you shoot for center of mass of whatever target you have available, be it a head, arm, leg, etc. This is not the same thing as the ridiculous notion made by the uninformed when they state something like "why didn't they just shoot them in the leg?".

justjim75
May 11, 2011, 09:25 AM
none of you know who, if anybody was in the building behind the truck. the cops shot towards a possibly occupied building at a man that was NOT shooting at them anymore. i just dont see how you guys can think that its worth the risk of shooting innocent people. the fact is the cops shot all of their rounds after he stopped shooting and ran away. maybe he was reloading or getting another gun. maybe he had an RPG. he was still a threat i agree but your statement about "if i was in a fight for my life" doesn't apply to the portion of this incident when 4 cops are shooting a man who is running away and not shooting back. once again, if a civillian had done the same, that person would go to prison for a very long time.

output
May 11, 2011, 10:44 AM
none of you know who, if anybody was in the building behind the truck. the cops shot towards a possibly occupied building at a man that was NOT shooting at them anymore. i just dont see how you guys can think that its worth the risk of shooting innocent people. the fact is the cops shot all of their rounds after he stopped shooting and ran away.

I don’t think the police did anything wrong in this instance, especially after being fired on within spitting distances. This was a very dangerous criminal. This guy meant business, he was determined, and by the looks of the video was not afraid to die or confront the police (as shown in the shootout.)

What if the police didn’t fire back and he ended up driving over kids on a bus stop. Or they ended up in another shootout in a busy intersection where more people were? IMO this guy needed to be stopped ASAP. At some point(s) when lives are at risk we have to give our Men and Women in uniform a little leeway…they put it all on the line for us every day of the week.

aryfrosty
May 11, 2011, 12:03 PM
Back to the cops habving to make decisions in seconds that lawyers will have months, if not years, to decide if they were right or wrong. I suspect that if the likliehood of the suspect moving on to other victims didn't have to be factored in many Cops would try other ways to contain a suspect. Often their hesitation leads to their own death. I have been shot on the job. Waiting until the suspect had a chance to shoot me before my risk assessment keyed me to shoot cost me many painful months in rehab and lost time on the street while driving a desk. I was blessed by God. I helped bury two field training students and a high school classmate. All killed by violence of others on the job. I have attended far too many Cop's funerals to criticize them for taking action to protect their lives and the lives of others. Curious thing about Officers killed while on duty...None that I have known, even knowing that the chances were great that they could lose their lives and their family's futures, would take back their actions that lead to their deaths. That dedication to their fellow humans deserves more than micromanagement. Regards, Al

markj
May 11, 2011, 01:26 PM
who, if anybody was in the building behind the truck. the cops shot towards a possibly occupied building at a man that was NOT shooting at them anymore.

Well just goes to show, best not to ever shoot at any police officer, they will shoot back till the threat is down and not moving. Would HPs travel thru the walls of them buildings? I dont know what caliber either.

Cops did you, me, and every American a favor by doing thier job there.

justjim75
May 11, 2011, 01:32 PM
i think you got me all wrong from the beginning. i have alot of respect for LEO's and what they are faced with is terrible. i am both sorry for you and your collegues getting shot and/or killed, and thankful for your contributions to keeping us safe. i read on this site and others constantly about being very, very careful where your bullets go if and when you decide to shoot and in this particular case it seemed like there was a very high risk of "collateral damage" due to many rounds being fired after the threat level went down to a degree. once again, thank you and sorry if you misunderstood me (i certainly think that guy needed to be stopped ASAP)

chadstrickland
May 11, 2011, 07:13 PM
Mark j...I agree with the last part of your post...you hit the nail on the head...but..I have also made my comments earlier and I still stick with them...imho..each bullet that didn't stop in that truck or bad guy had a lawer attached to it...I would be willing to be that all those cops had locked slides when they stopped shooting....I don't think it takes 50 bullets to stop a truck and kill a guy....that's my main point...I thank the good lord for cops..they do a dangerous job and im thankful they are there...( I have also never got a ticket )..any of you guys that are cops..im not trash talkin you at all..and I thank you for your service

MLeake
May 11, 2011, 07:33 PM
Of the two issues put forward (collateral damage risk; shooting at the back of a felon who is no longer shooting) only one would apply in my neck of the woods, and that would be the collateral damage.

As far as shooting in the back, or shooting at a fleeing felon, or for that matter continuing pursuit of a fleeing felon:

The guy was wanted for drive-by shootings, and had just fired on police. By law and by local department policies, those factors made the felon a lawful target until he surrendered. He didn't have to approach, he didn't have to continue to fire, all he had to do was fail to comply, and shooting him was lawful and in accordance with the policies I've read posted in local media.

Collateral damage could have been a legitimate reason to consider ceasing fire. I'd have preferred to see fewer rounds fired in a residential neighborhood.

But that has nothing to do with whether the guy was no longer shooting at, nor facing, the officers.

He only sowed what he very actively had reaped.

Big Shrek
May 11, 2011, 08:59 PM
JustJim, let me give you some info that you are missing.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."


Kinda sums it all up in a nutshell...if you are ONLY running away, that's not a shootable offense,
UNLESS, you have previously been violent...and especially if you had just been shooting at someone/cops.
So if you just beat your wife with a baseball bat, and are running from the cops with the bat in hand, they can blast you.
If you just pee'd on a cop car, and are running away, they can't shoot you (legally).

Violent Felony or multiple violent felonies = getting shot if you run.

Non-violent Felonies & misdemeanors = no bang-bang unless they spot a weapon on you.
(In which case they tend to run you over with a police car (see the Pensacola PD "Ard" case.)

It's that simple.

JohnKSa
May 11, 2011, 09:32 PM
none of you know who, if anybody was in the building behind the truck.We also don't know who was behind the cops when Mr. Nice Guy opened up on them without warning.

But we (and the cops) know what he would have done had he gotten away in his stolen truck. He would have continued doing driveby shootings--taking pot shots at people & buildings as he drove down the road.

It's too bad they didn't drop him with a single round, but it is (and was) painfully obvious that the cops were justified, in fact morally and legally obligated in doing whatever was necessary to stop him from leaving the scene.

TenRing
May 11, 2011, 10:47 PM
The perp in this case must have been deranged or insane. I don't know how he expected to get away after jumping out of the truck and firing rounds at the officers. It seemed like just another drive by shooting to him. Did he really think he would be allowed to just jump back into the truck and continue on his way? Maybe he thought he would race through residential streets and lose the officers. Seems like the perp was acting out scenes from a movie that he saw.

markj
May 12, 2011, 03:05 PM
each bullet that didn't stop in that truck or bad guy had a lawer attached to it...

Cops get into shootouts all the time, how often do innocents get hurt? Hardly ever, but it does happen. Now do them cops think about this when under fire? Heck no they are concentrating on stopping a known bad guy was drive by shooting at folks and shot at 4 officers, no all they were thinking of was stopping that threat before he hurts others.

How many people could he potentially kill or injure if he was left to get away?

I got family in LEO and I feer for them daily. It isnt a good job IMHO. Gotta go babysit adults, arrest them or hand out a ticket with a fine to upset individuals may be have a gun on them, or a gang wannabe wants to make a name for himself.

Nope, shoot at a cop, you gonna get shot up. And rightly so.

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2011, 06:00 PM
I don't know how he expected to get away after jumping out of the truck and firing rounds at the officers.

Who said he did?

Did he really think he would be allowed to just jump back into the truck and continue on his way?

Sadly, it happens more often than folks would like to believe. It isn't that the suspects are "allowed" to get back in their vehicles and leave, but that they manage to do so successfully for various reasons.

Cops get into shootouts all the time, how often do innocents get hurt? Hardly ever, but it does happen. Now do them cops think about this when under fire? Heck no they are concentrating on stopping a known bad guy was drive by shooting at folks and shot at 4 officers, no all they were thinking of was stopping that threat before he hurts others.

Yep. We still want them to shoot better. Personally, I don't care how many times they fire so long as their shots go where they are supposed to go.

9mm
May 12, 2011, 06:06 PM
I have a question!

With all the shots fired while he was standing outside the car before he got back in. Why didn't he get hit?? or go down? The cops seamed to missed him before he got back into his car.

JohnKSa
May 12, 2011, 09:33 PM
Handgun bullets aren't lightning bolts. I suspect he was hit at least once and maybe multiple times before he got back into his truck. At one point he stumbles slightly while trying to get back to and into the truck which might be evidence that he sustained an injury about that point in time.

The average service pistol caliber bullet destroys approximately 0.1% of the average adult male's body. Or, looking at it from the other side, the impact of the average service pistol caliber bullet leaves the average adult male 99.9% intact.

If the 0.1% damaged isn't anything particularly important or significant it's not going to have a particularly significant effect.

9mm
May 13, 2011, 09:49 AM
I argee I think he was acting some role play crap out. Just look how he hopped outta the car then ran back (silly) like.

Double Naught Spy
May 13, 2011, 10:13 AM
I argee I think he was acting some role play crap out. Just look how he hopped outta the car then ran back (silly) like.

Have you seen many of these sorts of events? Bad guys and good guys alike often look very silly under stress.

Of course he had to run back to his truck if he wanted to get back in it. He didn't get it into park and so it left him behind.

Tyrant
May 13, 2011, 12:33 PM
I do not think the police fired excessive rounds. The BG is pulled over and immediately discharges every round he has. The building behind the truck was most likely the same as what was behind the police.
Wait for back up - No longer an option. They had to remove the threat and end it before he could reload or utilize his other weapon (The vehicle).
There are so many things that can go wrong with the situation and few options.