Gunshot...what do you do?

[LASur5r]

You're in a gunshow...you hear a gunshot nearby...what do you do(if you're not hit.)?
Happened in two gun shows that I attended some years back.

[M1911]

First, hit the deck. Then, if it appears it was a simple ND, see if anyone around you was hurt. Then leave.

M1911

[fubsy]

Go to the bathroom clean my shorts and go have a calming beer for a tranquilzer and talk about the show and the nd like they were horrible...fubsy.

[johnr]

H*ll! I thought this was a shock/trauma thread...

[Erick Gelhaus]

Yup, I'd hoped it would be about penetrating trauma, occlusive dressings, etc.

[atlctyslkr]

Few weeks ago I was in a gun shop and some kid pops a cellophane bag. Me and just about everyone else hit the deck. Fortunately his dad took him out in the parkinglot and screamed at him and then left.

[Capt Charlie]

Few weeks ago I was in a gun shop and some kid pops a cellophane bag. Me and just about everyone else hit the deck.

:D

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19425&stc=1&d=1152904254

[atlctyslkr]

Now that's just wrong! :p

[Blackwater OPS]

How much is the dry cleaning bill on one of those suits anyway?

[Double Naught Spy]

My experience is singular. It was at the first (and only?) gun show in Frisco, Texas in late 2005 or early 2006. It was about 15-20 minutes after the doors opened and my buddy and I were rounding our 2nd or 3rd isle when the shot occurred. It came from across the room from our location, but I could see the area of the shot's origination, although I did not know the exact location until later. I had no idea what had been discharged, who discharged it, if anyone was hurt. There was a small grey cloud that could be seen briefly in the lights immediately above the shot area.

At this point, let me say that I always expected that with all the cheap talk about situational awareness, reaction times, etc., that with the gun shot in a gun show, there would have been several people to react quickly. I would guess there was maybe 150 people in the show at the time other than sellers. I was markedly shocked and sickened by the lack of response, including my own.

After the shot occurred, 2 things happened. First, everyone got quiet and the room became very quiet. Second, everyone stopped moving. A few of us, including myself, went as far as to duck down, hunching over a bit, but not actually doing any serious avoidance like actually hitting the dirt. Nobody took flight. I didn't see anyone between me and the sound of the shot turning around to check their 6 or to see if the shot was just part of some bigger event, such as a distraction noise. I know they weren't looking behind them because I was doing the same darned thing and could see they were not!

After approximately 6-8 seconds, several doors came open and security from the event flowed in, about 8 guys (some of which may have been organizers and such, but several with SECURITY shirts) from several doors and converged on the shooting location. With no shouts or screams, everyone went back to his or her business without much concern. I was stupified by our reactions or lack thereof.

Come to find out, it was an ND into the floor by a guy about to do some work on a gun. It was not cleared properly and given it was a Glock, he had to pull the trigger to disassemble it. Fortunately, he didn't violate all the gun handling rules and nobody was hurt by the errant round itself, although several closeby vendors noting their ears were still ringing some 30 minutes later when we finally got around to that side of the show. By that time, the cops were there, patiently waiting to escort him from the building after he loaded up all his gear. There was a nice hole in the carpeting.

It was my first such event at a gun show. For my buddy, it was his second. One of the vendors we know said it was his 7th in 4 or 5 years.

What did I learn? Apparently unless there are many shots, blood flying, or somebody yelling something about jihad or DIE DIE DIE, a singular gun shot in an enclosed room of gun people is not apparently much cause for alarm. We would much rather stand around and wait to see how everybody else reacts instead of being prudent and moving away from the area of danger until we otherwise know if the danger is singular (and ND, suicide, etc.) or just the first shot of a bigger event (crazy person, mass murder, etc.). No, until which time a grander threat than a singular gun shot manifests itself, we will simply stand around like livestock. No doubt if the threat is grander, will will take flight like livestock in an uncontrolled herd mentality.

The show was held in the convention area of the Embassy Suites as I recall. It was a separate building from the hotel. As a convention room, it is made to be sectioned off into many smaller convention rooms. Each of those rooms will have doors which means the overall bigger single room has many doors. It was with the entry of the security folks that I realized just how many available exits there were. By the time they started to enter, I was calculating my way to the nearest exit I had passed. The problem was, once I realized the structure of the building's convention room, the "nearest" exit I passed would actually put me going past 3 additional exits on the way to it. In all, there were probably 6 or 7 exits that were closer (without going over vendor tables) physically closer to me than the exit I had last noticed and thought was closest. Of those, at least 5 were in a direction AWAY from the perceived danger. The last or nearest exit I had seen was the exit for the BALLROOM and was one of several, but there were several smaller exit signs over doors that were the regular meeting room doors when the ballroom was partitioned. I had pretty much failed to identify any of them. As near as I could tell, save for security, nobody else had either, or if they had, made no move to use them.

While chatting during the show with another customer, I commented on the lack of response. He said something like, "What are you going to do, out run a bullet?" Of course not. For a singular bullet, there really isn't much one can do, but none of us knew if it was a singular bullet shot and that the event was over or if it was just the first shot of a bigger event. We all reacted pretty much like there was no danger and that there would be no second gun shot.

For the vast majority of the folks there who did not see the event occur and could not actually see and identify the guy who discharged the gun, all of us should have been working to distance ourselves from the danger. We failed miserably in this regard. I understand that how things went down with this event is not unusual in gun shows.

I now look for as many exits as I can find, not just the ones with the biggest signs. I hope to not again react like docile livestock should such a thing happen again. It was not prudent.

[LICCW]

Glock apparently gives a safety course for dealers and a friend of mine attended who works in a gun shop. Glock says to first drop the mag and then clear the chamber three times. Their reason is that if you clear the chamber once but have forgotten to drop the mag, you'll just re-load the pistol. But if you clear it three times and bullets keep popping out you know you have forgotten to drop the mag. Just thought I'd share that given the above incident related by double naught spy was Glock related.

[Skyguy]

let me say that I always expected that with all the cheap talk about situational awareness, reaction times, etc., that with the gun shot in a gun show, there would have been several people to react quickly. I would guess there was maybe 150 people in the show at the time other than sellers. I was markedly shocked and sickened by the lack of response, including my own

LOL!
Everybody's a warrior until they get shot at.

What bugs me is that so many commercial SD trainers/instructors really have no experience off the range. They're experts at shooting at targets in 'safe', contrived, practiced, stressless situations. That's it.

They teach every variation in the book, but what will likely happen in a close shootout is that one will either freeze, backpeddle while shooting or crouch/stare/push out/shoot....and pointshoot!
And don't count on the 'peripheral vision' baloney....it's great fun, but extreme stress suppresses peripheral vision. You will have gross muscle memory and tunnel vision only.


A few of us, including myself, went as far as to duck down, hunching over a bit, but not actually doing any serious avoidance like actually hitting the dirt. Nobody took flight.

Sounds like an instinctive crouch to me. :))

combat crouch
http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/combat%20crouch.bmp
backpeddle/crouch
http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/kehoebrothers.jpeg

....and read Bullseye's Don't Shoot Back - Applegate & Janich

.

[Winston007]

Double Naught Spy Sounds like a controlled reaction to me and it was well handled by the venue staff - perfect - the last thing you need in a room full of people with guns is panic.

Years ago I was shooting at an indoor range. A case blew up in a friend's .45 I saw the slide fly forward and the rest of the gun hit the floor seconds later. I leaned over and saw my friend kneeling on the grown with his hands covering his face which was bleeding I spoke to him, and he responded, I then RAN to the counter to enlist assistance. The first thing the experienced person behind the counter said was "DON'T RUN!" - "I will get my kit and be right there". I'll never forget that advice.
You leave and learn and I learn everyday.
BTW He had a couple of black eyes for a week but he recovered very well.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sounds like a controlled reaction to me and it was well handled by the venue staff - perfect - the last thing you need in a room full of people with guns is panic.

There is no way in the world everyone in that room experienced a controlled reaction. Freezing up isn't a controlled reaction.

As far as panic in a room full of guns, moving from danger failed to occur in either a panic manner or controlled manner. If folks were so much in control, then logic would indicate they move from the danger in a controlled manner.

As far as the guns in the room, they are supposed to be unloaded. Most certainly are.

[Doggieman]

keep in mind though that if there had been multiple shots people probably would have reacted differently (I HOPE). One almost expects the occasional ND at a gun show. However if everyone had whipped out CCWs from their waistbands and taken ready stances that would have been cool. Unlikely though.

[FRANK1669]

One almost expects the occasional ND at a gun show.
I Never expect a ND at a gun show or elsewere and niether should anyone else. That remarks scares the hell out of me I hope to never attend one of those shows

[ATW525]

I've never witnessed a ND at show, but I haven't been to one in years. I have, however, witnessed gunfire (two shots) on a city street in Cambridge, MA and most people in the area seemed completely oblivious.

[TexiCali Slim]

Oh and I guess get some ammo too:p

[Doggieman]

well, let me clarify my remark a little.. one almost expects a ND at a gun show *or anywhere else there are lots of people handling guns and ammo as opposed to where they're not.* I'd be less surprised by a ND at a gun show than at the perfume counter at Macy's, for example.

My point was that WHERE you hear a gunshot is going to color your reaction to it and it makes some sense that people weren't all hitting the floor after one shot, whereas if I were at a party and heard a gunshot I'd be getting the hell out real fast and I suppose most others would too.

[444]

Unless it was very close, I would probably ignore it.

[guntotin_fool]

I was in a cabela;s a few years ago and someone was filling a paint ball gun with air when the hose let go, It sounded just like a\ gunshot, This was right near the gun dept, and I was on the floor on top of my son in a heartbeat, I got up and i looked at my brother and we both chuckled, we both had our 1911's out and there were a couple of other customers who had drawn too. I think the poor kid who was filling the tank needed a potty break, or maybe a uniform break.

I honestly can say I do not remember making the decision to draw, but we had them out thinking some one was shooting up the gun counter.

[Double Naught Spy]

Good for you! Some people will react.

As for it being a gun show and so people expect that sort of thing sometimes, nobody expects it. What if it was a double tap (the reason for the double firing unknown to the crowd)? What if it was a short full auto burst? At what point do you decide that you might be in real trouble? Does it need to be a sustained amount of fire for a while, shots then a span of time, then more shots? Isn't the fact that the first round went off enough or are many folks too lazy to move toward an exit.

If you can reason that a shot in a gun show must be an ND, then you can reason that it would be prudent for you to move in a safe direction and away from the danger until you have confirmation of your hypothesis.

[threegun]

Doggieman, A+. I also would have gone about my business. Had the single shot been at work well here's the story. We are helping customers at the pawn counter when bang a gunshot from behind us. Both of us draw and immediately move toward the back fearing that someone had breached our shops back door and met our jeweler (he works in an office in the rear of the shop next to the back door). Turns out that the jeweler decided to play with the shop 12 gauge and had a ND with a 3 inch buckshot (ouch). My coworker and I both reacted swiftly and as if we had rehearsed the very situation dozens of time before (I wonder why). Practice make perfect.

[samsmix]

Yeah, I had one of those...well sort of.

I had pulled up to a small cafe that sits on the highway outside Standford, MT. I had just exited my old IH travelall when heard that familiar CRACK!:eek: I was immediatly down in a crouch near the rear fender, and upon closer inspection my .44mag Super Blackhawk was in my hand with the hammer back! How did that get there?!?

It turned out the guy on the other side of the blacktop road had had an ND with a 30-30 stored chamber loaded, amid the clutter behind the seat of his pickup. Noone was hurt and he ended up with a neat hole in the side of his rig for his foolishness. I wiped my shorts & drove on.

[Archie]

Seems to be a tired and overworked phrase, but it fits.

Double Naught, you did the right thing in the instance; started looking and assessing. One shot and quiet. No cries of "And the horse you rode in on!" or sounds of flight or anything to indicate the situation is continuing or escalating.

On the other hand, samsmix did exactly the right thing, too. Take a covered position and assess the situation. Being all alone, he drew his gun in precaution. Another one of those things that 'just happen' and life goes on.

It strikes me most of the folks here do the right thing, have done the right thing and will continue to do the right thing. Shots fired do not always require shots in return. On the other hand, a shot fired requires attention to what is going on.

Three basic questions for most any situation like this:

1. Who shot?
2. Why did they shoot?
3. Does anyone require being shot any more at this time?

Obviously, one's own situation bears on the course of action. Being in charge of a Sunday School class of second graders on an outing is different that if I'm on my way to the range, alone. (You all knew that.)

If nothing else, one must at least determine which direction to go to avoid more problems.

[Samurai]

For my part, if I'm at a gun show and I hear a shot, I will probably react as follows:

1. Jump 3-7 feet into the air.
2. Evacuate bladder.
3. Scramble for my 1911.
4. Finding my 1911 holster empty, scramble for the latch on the carrying case I'm holding.
5. Draw 1911 from the carrying case; notice it feels "weird."
6. Waive 1911 wildly around the convention center, without regard for safety concerns, ettiquite, or a proper shooting platform. Wonder why the sights aren't lining up the way I'm used to.
7. Recognize that the goons at the front desk made me tie a zip-tie through the mag well and chamber before entry to the event. Curse them under my breath.
8. Return 1911 to the case. Pick up all the cleaning parts and the manual from the storage compartment of the case. Move out of the puddle on the floor. (See step 2, above.)
9. Realize that at this point 30 more seconds have passed, without a second shot. Conclude that this is probably a one-shot incident. Still fail to conclude that I am safe.
10. Spend the next 5 minutes standing perfectly still, wondering where the exits are, wondering if anyone saw me act like a complete idiot with the 1911, wondering if anyone can smell the puddle or the part of the puddle still on me (See step 2, above.).
11. Get my credit card back from the ammo guy who has seen fit to hang on to it for what seems like 3 1/2 hours while he figures out how to work his own charge machine. Curse ammo guy for his lack of security precautions in handling my credit card. Realize that another 30 minutes has passed. Begin to calm down.
12. Leave as quickly as I can while carrying that much ammo. Curse the ammo for "being so heavy."

And, here's the most important step:

13. NEVER RETURN TO THAT GUN SHOW AGAIN!!!

Others could probably handle such an event much better than me. I'm just trying to speculate as to how I would handle it, if I ever needed to.

[Arizona Fusilier]

I agree wholeheartedly on the "context" angle; as tragic as it might be, a ND is something you might expect at a gun show. A single shot might not bring out the full range of reaction that folks might have otherwise.

I experienced an accidental (negligent, whatever:rolleyes: ) discharge at a very small gun show at the local VFW. Here in Phoenix, we have massively large shows, and its not normally worth my while to attend the small ones. This one was right across the street from where I lived at the time, so what the heck.

It was a private owner who had some small .22 or .32 or something like that in a revolver on display. Thank goodness pointing in a safe direction was followed; the bullet went more or less harmlessly in the floor. I went down in a crouch to the floor, reaching for my own gun, which of course wasn't there. Didn't see too many other reactions; everyone seemed to assume it was an accident, but upon seeing no one was hurt, just kind of milled about silently for an awkward minute or so.

The crazy ol' coot who had the revolver on display was ejected from the show, mumbling about how his gun show days were over. Frankly, I don't think he's been missed.

It has given me a great deal of suspicion now when dealing with "private owners"; carry gun one day and show gun the next. Think about it, if a loaded gun "accidentally", "negligently" or otherwise makes it to the floor of a gun show, it will probably be on a private owner's table, not a licensed dealer's table.

I wouldn't fault people for not over-reacting under the circumstances, though multiple shots would likely be the cue everyone is looking for to take a more drastic action than drawing a sigh of relief and saying "thank goodness that wasn't me".:o

[Hardtarget]

I've been reading the responses and I've been trying to count how many gun shows I've to...and I have no idea...too many to count. In all those years I've never heard a shot at a gun show. Just lucky, I guess, and I'm glad of it.
Mark.

[Doug.38PR]

Every gun show I've ever been to in Texas doesn't allow loaded guns.

Don't panic. Get down real low. Look around. See where the disturbance came from. Move away from it as calmly and quickly as you can.

If I have my carry gun with me, which I ususally do, the first thing I might consider doing is buying some ammo at the show. If something goes wrong and the trash hits the fan, I need only whip out my pocket knife, cut off the plastic wire keeping my gun from functioning, open the ammo box and load up..

[PythonGuy]

^^

You can't be serious with that comment??

[Doug.38PR]

If I have my carry gun with me, which I ususally do, the first thing I might consider doing is buying some ammo at the show. If something goes wrong and the trash hits the fan, I need only whip out my pocket knife, cut off the plastic wire keeping my gun from functioning, open the ammo box and load up..

Well, in once sense I am serious in another no. If a gunshot turns out to be some nut shooting at people and I cannot get to an exit without going by the area of shooting, then I am dang serious. Especially if the shooter is coming in my direction and I have nowhere to go. Granted I would have to hide under a table or out of sight while doing this, but I'd have a much better chance with a loaded gun than not.

If it is just a ND or in fact a nut and I can safely escape the area, then no I am not serious.

Worst case senario is all I mean't that comment for

[wolfy692005]

stop drop and roll... um wait, wrong deal... still stop and drop... wait for clear... leave..

[Venison_Jerkey32]

Are you saying that in Texas if you have your concealed carry liscense, you still can't carry a loaded gun into a gun show?

[azurefly]

I think that Samurai's post brings up the most germane point: apart from possibly ducking or taking cover, or running for an exit, there isn't much most folks at a gun show can do since they are "required" to not have their guns loaded.

I haven't been to lots and lots of gun shows, but I've been to a number of them here in S. Florida. The show at the fairgrounds in West Palm Beach has a "no loaded firearms" policy, but you know what? The policy may be in place, but all they do is ASK you, "Do you have any loaded guns with you?" If you say yes, they will have you unload them in a safe area. If you say no... You can walk on in with that nicely concealed GLOCK 27... :cool:

And in my opinion, if you do not plan to be taking that gun out for any reason other than dire circumstances, you are wise to simply say, "Nope!" to their question and saunter on in. I am talking about if this is your EDC gun that during any other day would be remaining just as concealed, just as permanently, then I feel there is no reason for complying with the rule and every reason not to.

I have to go to and from the show. I want my carry gun available to me as something other than a hunk of metal and plastic to hurl at an attacker. I do not want to have to take purchases out to the far reaches of the parking lot without something with which to defend against a possible robbery. I do not want to have to get back to my car and then reload my EDC CCW piece. That's just stupid.

Let's look at the logic of banning loaded-CCW in places like gun shows: how can we defend gun ownership and claim that most gun owners are competent at the same time as we are telling them they can't carry loaded CCW guns at gun shows because of the danger they present?? :confused: Are we in agreement with the antis, who would have the world believe that American CCWers are just reckless, dangerous loose cannons?

Obviously, I don't want the guy with his O/U or his SKS for sale to be walking around with it slung over his shoulder loaded. I do not want people walking around the show with guns they plan to be presenting for examination loaded. But loaded CCW is something we expect to be trusted to do safely in restaurants, shops, movie theaters, homes... and then we say, "You're not supposed to do that in gun shops and gun shows"?! :rolleyes:

I have never disarmed for gun shops and gun shows, and I don't plan to. No reasonable, compelling argument is put before me why I should have to. If the gun shop owner is concerned that I might be a robber, well, if I was a robber I would just disobey his sign. If he's concerned that I might take my CCW gun out and start being stupid and reckless with it, he ought to have a sign that says, "CCW guns MUST REMAIN CONCEALED/HOLSTERED. All other guns must be unloaded when brought on the premises."

It only makes sense that if you walk into a gun shop or show with a CCW gun on you, it should remain untouched unless it is needed for what you'd need a gun for -- armed self defense. If you plan to present the gun to a gunsmith or anyone else, you should CCW some other gun and bring the one you want worked on or sold in an unloaded condition.

I thought this stuff was just common sense...


-azurefly