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LASur5r
September 13, 2000, 03:56 PM
Dragontooth recently replied in a thread that even though with his formal aikido training, a fight breaks down to using other than what and how you trained.
I have read some of your replies and some of you have been in some hairy incidences in your situations, did you use the techniques that you trained in and did it come out the way you trained or were taught or did it evolve to a free for all or something in between?

I had trained in old style jiujitsu, no mats, no gi's, and no tapouts; just ground to break your falls. So when I moved to soCal for highschool, I had a run in with a football player type who thought I was trying to steal his girlfriend. (Her father, a teacher in the high school that I was attending, asked me to teach her some self-defense because this guy was chasing away guys that wanted to date her, some by intimidation, some by beating them up and she did not even want to date this guy.)

Short story long, he confronted me in the P.E. locker room and he brought two of his buddies to make it a "fair fight." He tried to slam the locker on my hands, I asked him, "What his problem was?"
He told me to stay away from his girlfriend and he took three punches at me that I blocked and counter chopped into his carotid area, but our instructor had us "pull our hits because of the injury to your opponent if executed properly" so I"pulled my punch", then he did a lunging punch and I thought perfect for a shoulder throw (Seio-nage?) I grabbed his button down shirt and kiyaiied as I went into the throw... and completely ripped his shirt off his body.
Also the floor being partially wet (P.E. locker room), I slipped and did a shoulder roll on the floor to turn and face him with his shirt in my hand....Tah dah!
I acted like I knew what I was doing...they were so startled that they just walked off with a surprised look on their faces.

I didn't learn my lesson, though, I still stayed with schools that "pulled their punches" until I met Bruce Lee in '64, but that's another story.

So what happens...as you practiced? or something completely different?

George Hill
September 13, 2000, 06:07 PM
Hit first, and hit hard enough that the enemy can't hit back.

LASur5r
September 13, 2000, 06:49 PM
George H.,
Did you study under Bruce Lee? That was one of his early philosophies. He figured that one of the weakest points/times that your opponent had was when he was attacking or actually just when he was beginning his attack because his mind is totally focussed on the attack, therefore your opponent't timing would be off should you attack him at that moment.
If you watch a lot of his old movies (duh) they're all old now, that's exactly what he demonstrates especially the scene in the alley where he was working in the Chinese restaurant in Italy.
Anyway...good on you, George H.

dragontooth73
September 13, 2000, 06:53 PM
heck i'm not even 30 ... if my experiences are hairy compared to yours then i must be a cat spitting out furballs ...

seriously though ... my aikido training went to @#$% a lot of times ... mostly due to headlocks, etc etc ... found submission moves useful but more often than not it came down to slap, beat, choke. trouble makes a point of searching me out when i'm with my gf, kid sister, or someone else i need to protect or at least absorb hits for. which is to say the least VERY annoying ...

funny how that seoi-nage turned out ... quite surprised actually ... i do think George Hill is right ... nail 'em first and hard ... shoot i think i have to start picking up JKD (yes Skorzeny please stop laughing thank you)

LASur5r
September 13, 2000, 09:42 PM
Dragontooth 73,
I haven't contacted some of the old timers in JKD in quite a while and there's a lotof new guys that I haven't met, but if you want...give a holler where you might settle down at least on a temporary basis in L.A. and i think I can hook you up to some JKD guys in your area...they may be a little long in the tooth, gray in the hair, in some cases, they have almost no hair, but they are a bunch of battlers and some of them are more than willing to work with someone interested in learning.

I think Skorzeny can hook you up to a lot more people that are presently active more than I can.

If JKD is not your thing, then just ask because L.A. is a mecca for just about any kind of M.A. available.

Otherwise, some of my ex-con buddies recommend soap on a rope..or a soap bar strategically placed in a sock. Good luck and take care.

HI No Kah Oi!

M1911
September 14, 2000, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LASur5r:
He figured that one of the weakest points/times that your opponent had was when he was attacking or actually just when he was beginning his attack because his mind is totally focussed on the attack, therefore your opponent't timing would be off should you attack him at that moment.
[/quote]

Back in college, I did a bit of fencing and used this technique quite effectively. I don't know exactly how I knew they were going to attack. That is, I wasn't conciously looking for some signal. But with some opponents, I just knew when they were going to attack. They must have been doing something (tensing their shoulders, who knows), that I just subconciously picked up on.

The best time to attack is when they're not ready to defend, which is just before they're about to start an attack.

M1911

dragontooth73
September 14, 2000, 11:43 AM
thanks LASur5r ... never thought of soap ... usually i just put a whole bunch of coins in a sock and tie it up ... makes me have to get change all the time lol

seriously though ... i'll give JKD a try when i move. plenny mahalos :)

ps - yup hawai'i is da best :p

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 14, 2000).]

krept
September 14, 2000, 01:25 PM
Just an observation...

I have found that when many people are unexpectedly confronted with a violent situation freeze up due to all of the adrenaline, etc. going through the body. The more one is accustomed to this feeling, the mroe one is able to utilize it to his or her advantages.

I have found that I can almost predict attacks as well in untrained fighters. It's kind of like playing with a cat or dog... you know almost the split instant they are going to go from the static on balance position to a dynamic one, usually preceded by muscular tension and inhalation. The problem with watching for these "signs" in HTH is that they can be distracting and it is better as Lee/Mushasi/or Tzu said to watch the whole picture.

I have found that many times in violent encounters on-balance attacks are rare unless the person is trained. The problem I had with Aikido is that the irimi and tenkan (i think this is right) movements necessitated a firm base, which is desirable. Maybe the best way to describe it is how the aikidoka say "being centered." Frequently people lose their centered-ness with the adrenaline feeling, the "oh golly, I'm being hit" etc. and that is why it is extremely difficult to execute the techniques unless you are skilled enough to remain centered.

I have found that through groundfighting/grappling/jiujitsu (Brazilian) I learned how to be centered (or what a base is) easier. This applies very well to fighting, as when you can attain base on the ground, you can clear your head, calm down get the adrenaline feeling a little worked out and then procede much better than trying to do so on your feet. The situation is not so dynamic on the ground and you have better balance. For me, ironically, it was easier to learn how to be centered from ground grappling than standing techniques. IMO the ground is a very good place to start learning.

OK, I've caught myself rambling again (haha). My point: technique goes out the window initially due to nerves. If you can get in a position to calm down without being a target, you are much better off.

BTW, there are some AWESOME places to train in Hawaii.

Erik

dragontooth73
September 14, 2000, 05:58 PM
true, but when you live on certain islands it gets kind of hard ... but anyways great point ... fortune cookie line ... *deer in headlights get whacked* i guess

George Hill
September 14, 2000, 07:05 PM
No, I didn't study under Bruce.
I just been in a lot of fights... Read and agreed with Sun Tzu... and got from the US ARMY, a deep understanding of the application and results of a properly planned and executed ambush.

The deer in the headlights is a good analogy.
Also - the fact remains:
Action is faster than Reaction.
My point is this - as soon as you sense that its "GO TIME". Go.
Don't get into a mental debate "Ah, this is just a bluff - this guys doesnt want to throw down or fight..." If you do that - you have lost. Take comfort in the fact that if you feel threatened, you can defend yourself... Or if he (the Other Guy) has made a threat, you have just been assaulted and thus can defend yourself.
My favored combination in HTH if this:
A very rapid snap kick to the groin, followed by a PUNCH-DRAW move striking the nose. This worked for me when faced with a (Tongan) mugger that outsized/weighed me by 30% (seemed like 100%).
If it had gone to a ground fight - I'ld have lost. But my Action was faster than his Reaction and thus I won.

Tapping into your Adrenalin was mentioned... Thats only part of it... Easily tapped, but not enough to WIN a FIGHT. Every person has something inside them... I call it my Engine. Gabe Suarez formerly of the Halo Group, calls it his Dragon... Whatever you call it - its a side of you that society teaches us to bury - to deny. Its the Dark Side that remains our connection with our brutal evolutionary beginings... The Killer Instinct. THATS what you have to tap into.
Some folks cant control it, or open the tap and cant shut it. We call them Death Row inmates after they get caught... so you need to be able to open it right at "GO TIME" and then close it back off when the threat is over. That instinct is there... and its hard to go sparring and have a good work out that will let that tap open for training purposes... I'ld be afraid to try... But in a for real fight - That is the edge. Thats your weapon... weather you are armed or not.

"The application of violence has solved more problems in history..."

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 14, 2000).]

Al Mondroca
September 14, 2000, 07:19 PM
Well, first, the disclaimer: My encounter didn't involve a real threat--I was involved in a game of "Killer" on-campus in college.

I was studying karate 3-4 hours a week.

So when I returned to my dorm room one night with a sub sandwich in a bag in one hand, and my keys in the other, I see this stranger loitering in the hall near my door. I keep an eye on him as I approach my door--and sure enough, he pulls a water pistol out of his pocket.

So I stepped toward him, grabbed his hand so he couldn't point it at me and "shot" him with the toy pistol _I_ was carrying.

A friend who was with me saw it differently. I _lunged_ at the guy. My sandwich flew one way down the hall, the keys flew the other way, and I dropped into one of the karate stances I'd showed him, one foot cocked and ready to kick (and I do remember thinking, "I could kick him now, but it's just a game--so I won't").

So--yeah, it wasn't real. And in a real fight, the other guy would no doubt have been trying a lot harder too. But it _did_ show me that practicing defensive techniques over and over actually does drill them into you. I wasn't even aware that I'd _used_ my karate training until my friend pointed it out to me afterward.

Fortunately, I have no real "war stories" to tell.

LiquidTension
September 14, 2000, 09:39 PM
First of all I just wanna disagree with George H on the action faster than reaction thing. If you have enough training to keep your head during a confrontation, reaction is faster. This is something my sensei drilled into us. When you're on the defensive, you can be relaxed and calm, all you have to do is wait and let your training take over. If you have to think about an attack, you are preoccupied and will likely fall victim to the same thing you are trying to accomplish - a first strike.

Now for my little story. Only time I've been in a fighting situation I was in a car with my gf. A guy came up to the window and started talking sh!t and then swung the baseball bat at the window, hitting it dead center and doing no damage. By this time I had backed up but he got off a second swing that hit the car and the window at the same time, shattering the glass. I now know from experience that I don't freeze in these situations. I became absolutely furious. I stopped the car and aimed it at him to run him down, but my gf's screaming stopped me and we just sped away to the nearest police station. As we were leaving 2 other carloads of ppl pulled up to where we had been and picked up my attacker, so it would probably have been bad for me to run him down. Naturally by the time the police got there they were all gone and they never found them, even with the vivid description of the guy and the vehicles. They wrote up the report as vandalism instead of assault. I learned 3 things from this - 1) a driver's side window costs $150 and is not covered by insurance. 2) The police will do whatever possible to decrease paperwork (I was young and didn't know the nature of police yet). 3) Most important - I get ****** off beyond belief (and almost control) when confronted. I have lost my train of thought now, so I'll shut up.

George Hill
September 14, 2000, 10:09 PM
Okay - true - please amend my post - 99 times out of 100... Action is faster than Reaction. Stupid Assalant VS Trained Martial Artist. :rolleyes:

No Kidding.

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 14, 2000).]

Danger Dave
September 15, 2000, 12:48 PM
George, I agree with you - action is faster than reaction. Average reaction time is about 3/10 second. A good, confident/competent striker can beat that once they get in range.

Most people, however, telegraph their intentions - that's what we have time to react to.

Number 6
September 15, 2000, 05:56 PM
Whatever you do, don't wear a tie or dangling earrings (depending upon your gender).

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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Homer Simpson... but attributed to Algore.

MTAA
September 15, 2000, 06:09 PM
When you rely on your adrenaline and "The killer instinct" you wear yourself out unnecesarily and put yourself at risk. The only way to combat this is to spar without pulling punches and or competing. Then when you get into a fight you don't fall back on "fight or flight" syndrome. As far as the action vs. reaction comment...who stands their expecting to get hit ? The loser does. I never think about what my opponent is going to do to me, defense should be second nature, I always size up his posture/weaknesses and execute my attack.
If you get hit, you get hit, big deal, that shouldn't stop you.

LASur5r, you train at the Inosanto academy ? I train at Gyms in North Hollywood and spar with some of the Jet Center guys. I've been considering Krav Maga, it seems to suit all the questions you have been raising in posts lately.

Anyone in L.A. go to the Coban vs. Danny Steele fight ?

Danger Dave
September 15, 2000, 09:00 PM
MTAA, I'd also add that adrenaline gives you a wicked case of target fixation/tunnel vision. You won't see his buddy who walks up on you, even if he's in your peripheral vision...

The problem with waiting (reaction) on your opponent is that you give him the opportunity to plan his attack, or do something totally unexpected (lots of untrained people will do something you can't expect, especially since they don't even know what they're going to do). And, what if he is faster than you? Getting whacked/taken down right off the bat is not a good idea. If a fight has become inevitable, seize the initiative & force them to try to beat your best game, not the other way around. Offense as well as defense should be instinctive - they're just parts of the whole.

As far as the "if you get hit" bit, I totally agree. Good defensive/counterattacking skills are a must, unless you have Tex Cobb's ability to suck up damage & keep going - and have plenty of money for the doctor bills from taking such a beating...

Skorzeny
September 16, 2000, 01:26 AM
Hi, everyone!

As usualy, I have some opinionated comments:

I disagree with the generalization that "martial arts training goes out the window in real fights."

That depends entirely on what that martial arts training was. The reason that Aikido, for example, is relatively useless in a real fight is that it is trained STATICALLY against a compliant partner. Meaning, one practices by having a partner "attack" at moderate speeds in a predictable pre-arranged fashion and then "counter" with a technique. This kind of training does not prepare the practitioner for what actually occurs in a fight (during which the opponent will move unexpectedly, unpredictably and with varying intensity).

However, this kind of training IS necessary to 1) muscle-memorize the technique (which takes 1,000+ repetitions over time) so that the technique becomes reflexive (even if "surprised") and 2) to develop physical attributes (power, speed, blah, blah, blah...).

Yet, there MUST be more for serious street fighting or self-defense. There must be DYNAMIC training where the the practitioner and the partner spar freely (relatively speaking) so that each cannot predict the movement of the other or the intensity with which each responds to an attack or a counter. Judo calls this Randori. Boxing calls it free-sparring. This is absolutely ESSENTIAL if one wishes to actually be able to apply techniques (be it a seoi-nage or a jab-cross combination).

At the same time, dynamic training will demonstrate to one about whether certain techniques work or not in "real" situations. One can certainly practice Kotegaeshi (wrist-bending) one million times and, indeed, in a rare occurrence when a thug attacks one with a reverse punch at 75% speed, one might be able to perform it successfully. But, chances are, a little dynamic training will quickly demonstrate to any Aikidoka that such a technique is NOT likely to work when a thug comes at him with a full intention to pound his face into the pavement (rather that with an intention to reverse punch him at 75% speed).

Now, dynamic training means that you cannot practice certain things (like eye-gouging or other "deadly" moves). I suppose one could train in such a fashion, but I suspect this will be difficult as one will either run out of training partners or insurance coverage from frequent stays at the hospital. Note that there are some ways to train these techniques dynamically, but it involves high degree of proficiency and is not something a garden variety martial arts students should try.

Having things such as mats, pads, gloves and, yes, tapouts allows people to practice these dynamic techniques without seriously injuring each other and to push the envelope on what is allowed during such training.

Lastly, regarding "adrenaline rush." Anyone who has been in any kind of combat sports competition knows that adrenaline is an enemy, not an ally. Adrenaline gives a burst of certain strength increase as well as some "moral" impact on untrained or inexperienced opponents. Unfortunately, a so-called adrenaline rush tends to rapidly consume oxygen and energy in a couple of minutes, rendering a person incapable of sustained fighting or physical activity.

Scientific researches demonstrate that a tense body burns oxygen (therefore energy) three to four times (!) faster than a relaxed body. Furthermore, a tense body creates jerky, imprecise body movements in which render any kind of fine motor activity ineffective and even impossible.

The best thing to do is to train oneself to be relaxed so that one can move, attack, defend in a clear frame of mind, with minimal consumption of energy and effort. Hence, Kano Jigoro's Judo maxim "minimum effort, maximum effect." A big part of this is training in proper breathing methods. Breathing is the ONLY way one can actually control the involuntary muscles of the body (like the heart) without the use of things like drugs.

BTW, this is where the Asian concept of "mushin" (or empty-mind) comes from. Without anger, distraction or adrenaline rush, one can "see clearly" and "think clearly" and can, therefore, act as one has trained.

Sorry about the long post, folks.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

The Observer
September 16, 2000, 11:18 AM
What real fight?

1. Barehand fighting
2. Blade fighting
3. Gun fighting

With the 3 mentioned above, I only experienced 1 and 2 items, but I had several close encounters in gun fighting.

In an unarmed combat, the training we had are just a Calisthenics. In true fighting, its fine if you have executed 3 good different kicks because the opponent movements will distract you also. So, your tendency is to storm him with an unexpected style or kinds of punches and kicks that might not be described in any martial arts book. In real fight there is always a graple after a few seconds of kicking and punching. And in grabbing each other you are going to bite, lock, elbow jobbing, knee kick, or throwing your opponent using Judo and other forms of throwing martial arts be it oriental or Western way of throwing techniques.

Any body who go into actual fight without using bladed weapon or pistol, expect that if you cannot knockdown your opponent in few seconds, you are both injured by any means and your Black belt in Karate, Judo, Jujitso or any style cannot protect you of being scratch or seriously injured. The training in martial arts will only prepare you to be more abled bodied fighter but not a guarranty that you are formidable. For sure you cannot use much of what you've learned in martial arts maybe just a few techniques.

In my being so active in martial arts at my early age, now that I am near to my 50's - I could say that the real martial arts is to develop something of our own movements out from the many martial arts we've learned to be more effective. To follow what is being taught sometimes in any martial arts school is not being used in actual fight. A farm boy can beat a black belter of any martial arts if the farm boy has a strong body and knows the basic of boxing and basic blockings.

Many martial arts instructors I've seen are only good in the Club but not in actual fight. Of course, a boxer trainer does not mean he can beat his trainee. It has been proven many many times. Thus martial arts is a sport and can be used also as a tool in a fight if the player has determination to fight.

In real fight, a determined attacker using bladed weapon against a blackbelt, for sure the black belt will be stabbed if he is not determined to fight. Thus determination is always necessary when going into a fight during self defense.

I wrote like this because in real fight, you are not going to use the karate blocks the same as executed inside the Dojo but those basic blocks and basic kicks we have studied will just trained us to fight when needed but it will not be exactly executed or used when we are already in na actual fight or brawl.
I look fighting that, when two are in the verge of exchanging blows and kicks they will utilize all what they can that is out of what they have learned in their respective clubs. I like martial arts only as the WAY of expressing a certain philosophy of good and coordinated flow of movements of the body. But they are not a guarranty to be a good fighter.

dragontooth73
September 16, 2000, 12:31 PM
um Skorzeny ... when i said my aikido training usually went out the window to the birds, it was meant as an entirely subjective statement. i know a number of martial artists who can dominate a situation at will (including one uncle who retired from the cia) ... i make no bones about it: i am NOT one of those people. my uncle (who now has a dojo in the canary islands, far far away from any warzone) continually set an object lesson for the use of physical force with extreme prejudice which i did NOT want to emulate as a child.

i didn't take up a *static* martial art because i wanted to *kick butt* ... i took it up for other reasons: spiritual calm, discipline, and most of all, QUIET. if i wanted to become a fighter i would have gone to shooto, a choice that would have been very easy in tokyo. as it stands, i have the highest respect for all the martial artists here in TFL, and elsewhere who choose to pursue *realistic* fighting styles. i'm just saying that for me, i KNOW i didn't train in a dynamic environment. but i chose that then. just as i'll make different choices now.

anyways, i must goto work ... everyone have a good day :)

Skorzeny
September 16, 2000, 04:18 PM
The Observer:

Let me quote you here "A farm boy can beat a black belter of any martial arts if the farm boy has a strong body and knows the basic of boxing and basic blockings."

I am sorry, but that kind of statement makes me wonder about the quality of "black belters" you have been exposed to.

So-called "traditional Karate" training has been found be lacking in realistic street fighting techniques, but that does not mean a "farm boy" can beat any martial artist.

In fact, that very statement tells me that you have been only exposed to unrealistic, possibly fluff, martial artists (the kind that teach Tae Kwon Do as "Korean Karate").

I urge this "farm boy" to show up at a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school or a Shooto gym (or even a Muay Thai school) and try to use his minimal boxing skills and see what happens.

Man, did you miss out on the martial arts/no hold barred fighting scene for the past ten years or what?

Dragoontooth:

We've already had this discussion. You already explained to me why you didn't train at Kodokan or at a University Judo club (I know, too tough, too competitive).

But you mention Shooto (ahhh, music to my ears, as I practice it). You ever check out KzFactory (Sato Rumina) or Pure-Bred gym (Enson Inoue)?

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 16, 2000).]

dragontooth73
September 16, 2000, 06:41 PM
true enough, Skorzeny. Enson Inoue also happens to be from Hawaii so that would have been interesting ... but there are LOTS of good schools where i am as well. it's just a matter of finally accepting what's necessary and going over the *pacifist* reasons one by one and seeing that preparedness is above all what counts. will keep you posted.

Observer, not to pry too hard but having lived in various countries in Asia made me wonder where you're from to be in such a hostile environment. certainly not japan or korea, as the weapons laws are rigorously enforced by very efficient police forces. i was thinking maybe thailand or indonesia.

then i noticed your profile says your server is *egis.net* ... if i'm right that's a singapore-based service. i goto bladeforums.com and there's this outrageous liar by the name of Nick1016 there (for those of you who want to really bust a gut laughing goto http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001782.html and take a look at how this moron whines) ... and he also uses egis.net, and i KNOW he's from singapore.

coincidence? i hope i'm wrong, but please clear up where you're from so i can at least take it as a travel advisory, since you describe so many ugly situations and general chaos. by the way i was born in japan and reside in hawai'i.

The Observer
September 18, 2000, 08:02 AM
Skorzeny & dragoontooth73: I have great respect to those who have really studied true martial arts of any form for the purpose of self defense and body conditioning.

My point only is to answer the question "What really happens in real fight" and can we really use the different methods of blocking, parrying, punching, locking, throwing and many forms. My answer to that is, we can use some of it, but not exactly the way we are taught. Be realistic, that in actual fight or combat we just throw punches and kicks simultaneously and if we grab each other to our opponents we try to release or get out from his grapples or perhaps we bite or break his elbows and neck. Do you think that you have still a premeditated techniques that youa re going to apply. As good martial artist say, if some one holds you don't think any techniques but just strike him and in that way it will shock him and perhaps his hold to you will be released.

If you live in slum areas and and see the exconvicts and other kinds of people who happens to be in actual stabbing or riot I think you would not try to use your being a martial artist in case you will be accosted by them. Of course if there is no room to evade or retreat we will fight back and use our learnings inself defense but the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Aikido we have studied will not guarranty that we are not being scratched or seriously wounded also. Or maybe, when you are in real trouble (hand to hand fighting) you might forget your martial arts but fight like a common man using all what he got in his body.

As I said a good martial artist will not demean the forms of other kinds of martial arts, but looking at your writings you look down karate and tekwondo as second to your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This has been discussed many times inside TFL (by my readings when I did not sign in yet). And everyone agreed that in actual combat be it in barehand and in pistol we just employ many informal forms of fighting for survival that even the two stances of shooting is not present anymore in actual fighting.

What if I am an Indonesians, Malaysian or asian - am I second to your race as caucasian (that is out of the subject) but we are here to discussed reality and accept factual things.

Respected co-TFLer's I am the same with you who have read every martial arts site in the web especially Blade forum as you've mention and I think (correct me if I am wrong) Equalizer and Parabellum are from Blade forum and I think even skorzeny.

I was trained also with rigid martial arts style without the fancy uniforms and padings to be placed in our body during tournament.

To sum up, what we have learned in any martial arts is a big help for us for self defense but if you asked "What really happen in actual fight" then I would humbly say all the paticipants will be hurt but we have a better edge then the one who has no so much training. Remember Vietnam considered a 3rd rate in military tatics (what happened we've got lesson from them). Thats my observation.

Thanks

crobrun
September 18, 2000, 10:35 AM
Skorzeny
Should we let them in on The Mental Edge?

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
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She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
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bad Kiki! No karaoke in the house!
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Larry Flynt is right. You guys stink!!!
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Peter McWilliams - Murdered by the DEA

dragontooth73
September 18, 2000, 12:00 PM
*The Mental Edge* ... ? ... sounds almost kinky ... :p ... seriously if someone wants to expound on it that's fine with me :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Observer:
What if I am an Indonesians, Malaysian or asian - am I second to your race as caucasian (that is out of the subject) but we are here to discussed reality and accept factual things.[/quote]

i happen to be mixed-asian and i find this forum to be one of the most enlightened i have ever come across on the net. i am VERY sick of the argument that caucasians are by inherent nature, racist thugs. that assumption shows a total lack of humanity ... to bring that up here, entirely out of the context of this thread to boot, shows a serious lack of taste.

i'm going to go off tangent here, but it struck me over the weekend (in the aftermath of getting blasted on really bad gin on my bday) that i've maybe been too hard on Observer? glad to see that it isn't much of an issue (yet, anyways) but here's a story on why, perhaps, i asked where in Asia he's from.

last summer a friend of mine, who happens to be an ibm exec based in singapore, got a nasty, sexually explicit email in her webmail account. she forwarded it to me, whereupon i asked a few cracker friends (cracker being computer vandal, not white supremacist in this case) to lightly *nuke* the sender in question. done within a matter of hours. end of story? wrong. she then got a call on her company celphone from an unknown perp who proceeded to threaten to rape and kill her. now only TWO other people knew that # and they both happened to be her immediate superiors in the company (she gets all her other calls screened through a private secretary and forwarded to her) ... she was, understandably, scared to death. right after it happened she asked me for help, and i told her:

(1) tell her superiors and everyone on the floor what happened
(2) mark down time, everything she can remember about the conversation, call the cops
(3) talk to the ibm security team
(4) call the phone company and have them do a trace on it
(5) get all parties listed above to cooperate

i told her if he's serious enough to get her private corporate # then he obviously knows where she works and he'll try to show up at work ... to have friends with her in the parking area, to and from work, everywhere ... and lo and behold, the VERY NEXT DAY the perp shows up IN THE LOBBY OF THE BUILDING and makes a call ... phone company traces it, security moves in, bags the perp, cops come and pick him up, end of story? wrong ... two days later, as she's driving home from work, a white toyota pulls her porsche over; as she gets out of the car, a masked assailant with shades and a baseball cap comes out and beats her up IN PUBLIC and drives off ... needless to say for the people who drove by IN RUSH HOUR and did NOTHING while this attack was in progress, for them i have nothing but contempt ... she ends up in the hospital, all lacerations and bruises; the perp struck her repeatedly in the face ... i call her up to see how she's doing, and hear what happened ... i was working in japan at the time and when i heard the news suffice to say i was stunned. i prepared to break my work contract and fly over. i told her then to:

(1) write down every detail of the attack.
(2) make a police report.
(3) not to trust the singapore police (as they were stupid enough to let the perp out in the first place) but to hire the best private investigation agency, and have them track down the perp (she remembered the color of the car, the make, and 3 of the license plate numbers).

i then called in a couple of favors: first from a then-friend in singapore ... a drug dealer whose gf panicked, said it must have been a gang-related attack, and said she couldn't have her bf involved in it and the cops should be called ... but she could "drop by and tuck my friend in bed and see if she as ok" ... needless to say i have nothing further to do with either of the morons, may they burn quietly in hell. i then contacted my twin sister in hong kong, and i asked her to contact a couple of *red poles* (triad killers) who could go over there and clean this mess up ... yes i know this is ILLEGAL but my friend meant a lot to me, and i'd rather have this on my conscience than her murdered and raped ... and i was NOT going to ask my uncle in the triads to clean this up ... however this all became moot because the very next day, the private eye tracked the perp down; 30 of her friends went over, found him, beat him up throughly, and turned him over to the now-chastened cops who put the perp away, without bail.

... if she'd had the option of CCW she would have been able to at least sleep well at nights (this whole mess took about 4-5 days) ... now i know that in japan, korea, china, hong kong, taiwan, singapore, you can FORGET about that option because private ownership of firearms is strictly regulated ... in malaysia i'd assume the same. in thailand, the philippines, brunei, or indonesia, i'd assume that with a little $$$ you could get around it.

personal security in some of the more *enlightened* asian nations is just laughable ... witness the example above in singapore, of all places. now i know that i've seen yakuza enforcers try to muscle out shopkeepers in japan, the same in korea ... the situation Observer described before with the thugs in his shop sounds like a classic triad shakedown ... question being of course, where? but i think that the question was answered in a roundabout way ... indonesia ... and as for THAT country, when the riots were going on heavy a couple of years ago in jakarta and ethnic chinese were getting raped and murdered, i was dating a girl from there who worried every day which one of her relatives would die (and some did) ... none of the ethnic chinese had firearms, having been told by the *enlightened* government that they didn't need any ... needless to say this is a far cry from the LA riots where korean-americans had weapons, and used them to defend themselves from thuggery.

my point?

faced with a situation like the stalking my friend had, or the mass pillaging my ex's family had to suffer, nothing is going to guarantee personal safety more than a good solid firearm, with the discretion and training to use it ... martial arts training is good; and honing the body, sharpening reflexes, can't ever be for the worse. training for reality should be the only consideration in choosing a discipline, unless you have other reasons (such as aesthetics, which was mine - but remember, i have no delusions about being a badass street fighter) ... and if preparation for facing reality is the sole criterion for how good a martial art discipline is, then by all means a *good* martial artist should slag a style that doesn't service that requirement, but makes facetious claims to do so.

heck ... this is so long and disorganized ... sorry ppl

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 18, 2000).]

Skorzeny
September 18, 2000, 11:38 PM
The Observer:

You seem to assuming A LOT of things without really knowing so.

For example, why do you assume that I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do for cultural or racial reasons (your comment, to quote "am I second to your race as caucasian?")? How do you even know if I am Caucasian? I could be African, Asian, Hispanic or mixed. I won't tell, because I don't intend to make that an issue (race or national origin is a non-issue for me). I will tell you, however, that I have traveled, lived, studied (academically) and trained extensively both within and outside of the United States. I will go as far to say that the US is my adopted country, rather than that of birth.

If I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do, it is because they are unrealistic for street fighting, self-defense and such (anti-rape for women). No doubt there are some tough Karateka or Tae Kwon Do men. But we are talking about how the systems are practiced in general.

And, mind you, I trained Tae Kwon Do in Korea and studied Shotokan in Japan. I understand pretty thoroughly the limitations of both systems. They make great participatory and spectator sports, but they are not particularly useful for self-defense (armed or unarmed), because their training and techniques (as you pointed out) are unrealistic.

I was a pretty mal-adjusted youth once (before I cleaned up and took up studying) and I have gotten into an unfortunately high number of street fights. I, by no means, can speak of all self-defense or street fighting situations, but I have been through quite a few and can speak with some authority about what actually happens in a street encounter.

Also, having studied various striking, throwing, grappling and weapons-based systems of "self-defense," I also have a pretty good idea of what their usefulness and limitations are.

Indeed, as you pointed out, many sports-based (TKD, Karate, Kickboxing, Olympic Judo, etc.) and quasi-religious (Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan) systems teach an array of ineffective techniques (for a variety of reasons, many of them cultural and historical).

Others, however, teach extremely effective techniques in their contexts. For example, boxing and Muay Thai excel in striking techiques. Shui Chiao, Kodokan Judo and free-style wresting are excellent throwing systems (and more). Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shoot wrestling and Sambo are great ground grappling arts. Systems like Shooto and Jeet Kune Do do a magnificent job of integrating several systems into effective fighting arts.

These are all very highly effective arts and I have witnessed their practitioners put their skills to quite deadly use in street encounters and no-holds barred fights (minimum rules).

Now, what makes some systems very effective and others not? I urge you to read my original post on this thread about "static" and "dynamic" training. Those systems that emphasize static training only (or heavily) tend to be ineffective (for the reasons I elaborated). Those that integrate dynamic training generally tend to be effective for the street (again, for the reasons I elaborated). A quick example is boxing (since you seem to think highly of boxing from your "farm boy with basic boxing can beat any martial artist comment). Boxers are excellent street punchers and it is NOT because of some secret, mystical reasons. It is because they engage in DYNAMIC training (meaning free-sparring). They quickly learn what works and what does not when one is exchanging heavy and painful blows to the head and the body (I know, I boxed for a bit when I was young).

Now, that effectiveness is in context of exchanging punches. Boxers become helpless if the "game" includes more than punching (kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting, throwing, grappling). The idea, then, is to train in integrated systems (with dynamic training), which include weapons training, by the way. This is one of the reasons why NHB scene is increasingly and irrevocably dominated by MIXED martial arts systems that teach striking, throwing and grappling (all in DYNAMIC context).

BTW, before you imagine me to be some sort of "kick ass" wannabe, I will tell you my philosophy of street self-defense. It is called E-S-C-A-P-E. I learned long ago that to engage in any kind of violent activity (not sanctioned by law) is a lose-lose situation whether or not I "beat" the other fellow. I will only "fight" if cornered with no possibility of escape. Even then, I will seek for opportunities for escape rather than "to win."

In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!

Enough said (for now), I retire into my slumber...

Oh, one more thing. Since I am a military historian/analyst, I will tell you that Vietnam was never considered third-rate in "military tactics." It might have been considered to be a third-rate "military power," but the Vietnamese have always demonstrated an ingenuity and willingness to resist foreign interference in their affairs, whether from the Chinese, French, British, French again, American and Chinese again, while we Americans have never been considered the master of what the British termed "small wars" since our Revolutionary War. Just felt a need to clarify... (since this is within the realm of my "bread-winning" vocation).

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]

MTAA
September 19, 2000, 06:38 AM
In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!


Two things, I was watching a Discovery channel piece on the Army Rangers and this pompous instructor was bragging about how quick the Rangers had been to adopt BJJ into their hand to hand combat training. He then went on to demonstrate some groundfighting where he was trying to manipulate a student from the guard. The whole time I'm thinking "Who's going to be doing this sh*t in the middle of a war !!??". I don't know what this guy was thinking but the last thing a soldier is going to want to do in a chaotic situation is get a guy in an armbar or choke him out while on the ground.

At the very least in street fighting grappling helps you prevent going to the ground because you will be familiar with how one would initiate a takedown. No one likes sprawling on cement ;)

dragontooth73
September 19, 2000, 08:06 AM
dang Skorzeny ... i edited my reply to Observer coz i didn't want to flame him too hard ... obviously you did it for me lol

seriously though ... love your credo ... i have the exact same one :) i prefer to disengage whenever possible coz in asia (as you probably well know) anyone you mess with has 20 friends around the corner, usually short, mean, vicious ... well i think you know.

actually i wasn't even going to reply to "vietnam as a third-rate military power" or whatever that was supposed to be ... *dien bien phu* says enough ... actually it takes about 2-15 reads of that last sentence to REALLY get what was meant by Observer, which is probably average ...

oya ... can anyone tell me what the *Mental Edge* is supposed to be?


[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 19, 2000).]

Skorzeny
September 19, 2000, 12:52 PM
MTAA:

Actually, that statement from the Ranger HtH trainer has been taken out of context.

In other interviews and segments, he stated pretty clearly that the PRIMARY reason why the Rangers are trained in BJJ is to help develop a "warrior spirit." Now, I do not think that he was suggesting that other systems do not develop the warrior spirit. I believe that BJJ's close association with the UFC and other NHB fighting events has given it some (deserved) reputation as such.

If it were up to me to train the Rangers in HtH combat, I'd bump up pistol shooting, knife/bayonet fighting, improvised weapons training (mainly spades, shovels, picks and such) and some throwing and grappling (also incorporating rifles, pistols and bayonets as well as empty-hand). But, then again, this would look A LOT like Russian military Sambo.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

The Observer
September 20, 2000, 04:50 AM
Greetings:

I have only answered the following question of the poster:

...did you use the techniques that you trained in and did it come out the way you trained or were taught or did it evolve to a free for all or something in between?

I have elaborated that much and the topic touches other areas of interest.

Guys, "DON'T BE EASILY BOTHERED".

Thanks

dragontooth73
September 20, 2000, 12:50 PM
:confused:

Badkarma187
September 20, 2000, 01:16 PM
In real life, in a real fight.... I know Gun-fu. :)

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Fear the Government that fears your gun!!!


[This message has been edited by Badkarma187 (edited September 20, 2000).]

krept
September 20, 2000, 05:42 PM
The Mental Edge is a sub-forum of mixedmartialarts.com. They guy that runs it is a great guy IMO. Check it out (and the rest of the site) for great info.

Skorzeny, your post is right on target, as usual.

Cheers,
Erik

MTAA
September 20, 2000, 06:58 PM
Skorzeny,

In the piece that I saw, the instructor did mention UFC and the recent success of BJJ, why or why not that makes an impression on him (fighting spirit, jumping on the bandwagon) still baffles me as how he will apply that to HtH training for the Rangers. He said he condensed the art to some 10-15 basic moves (umm ok?). What bothered me was that he was bragging about the success of BJJ in the ring as if that alone was reason enough to incorporate it into training. Meantime other militaries have developed HtH training which are more involved with their surroundings (Krav Maga, Military Sambo)rather than one-on-one combat training.

Too bad the trainer who was so quick to jump on "The next best thing" didn't get to see BJJ and the Gracies lose once they stopped fighting in UFC and other self sponsored events.

Skorzeny
September 21, 2000, 03:39 PM
krept:

Good to see you here as well. I believe the renowned Tony Blauer runs the Mental Edge on mixedmartialarts.com, does he not?

MTAA:

Certainly there is an element of hype in selecting BJJ for the Rangers. I acknowledge that. I also agree that other systems, such as military Sambo, would be much more appropriate for the Rangers than BJJ (right, try getting someone among the brass to adopt a "former Soviet" system).

On the other hand, some military forces around the world teach Tae Kwon Do, Karate or sports/Olympic Judo to their commandos, so BJJ isn't so bad in comparison.

Also, to be fair, we should admit that "the Gracies started losing" because the rest of the NHB/MMA crowd caught up with the Gracies in grappling/submission skills. Even the Japanese Shootwrestling was not practiced before the "advent" of the Gracies, the way it is practiced today.

Like it or not, the Gracies and BJJ have made a profound impact on the martial arts scene, even in Japan.

Lastly, I have observed that "combatives" are now becoming the flavor of the month. This is something Mark Tripp (certainly no friend of the BJJ) on mixedmartialarts.com observed as well.

Combatives are all very dandy, except one ought to always complement what is largely static training with some realistic dynamic training, lest one falls into the trap of invincibility from unrealistic training ("you-hit-me-and-stay-still-and-I-hit-you-ten-times!").

This is the strength of BJJ, as is the case with Kodokan Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

LiquidTension
September 22, 2000, 11:28 PM
I just started reading this thread tonight. All I can say is this - Dragontooth, will you be my friend? Because I REALLY don't want you as an enemy!

dragontooth73
September 23, 2000, 07:08 PM
um ... LiquidTension ... i'm not a Type A werewolf type maniac ... i'm actually very very friendly (i work in retail for the time being and i get props every day from strange people who tell management i should get a raise) ... it's just that people around me tend to get hurt a lot. i could wish i was skilled as some of the other TFLers in the martial arts and firearms expertise, but i'm not. i'll be the first to admit that. which is why i work on both my strengths and weaknesses so i can stop wishing.

some of the people here DO sound like fobs ... incoherent, to say the least, but for the most part this forum is full of very sensible, humble people of much wisdom and goodness in their lives. i give you all a salute / :)

ps - the friend of mine in singapore is doing fine. what really struck a dozen nerves with me is her getting hit in the face (she's a part-time model) ... oh well it's done and over with now.

LiquidTension
September 24, 2000, 02:51 AM
I was more referring to the Triad connections than your attitude =) I realize that you're a good guy and didn't mean to imply that you weren't. That make more sense?

tobeat1
September 24, 2000, 01:10 PM
Just wanted to jump in on something that was stated early one in the thread. What style or affiliation of aikido is being discussed? I understand the most common form taught is pretty tame, but I have to say that after watching a friend of mine test for Shodan that was far from the truth. At one point in testing they had up to six uke going after him in randori. This was done freeform, no planned attacks. He did get tagged a couple of times though.(showed his back too much). I believe that all styles have thier own merit in a street confrontation, and we should embrace all.

------------------
"peace, love, joy, and happiness..."

LawDog
September 24, 2000, 11:17 PM
To answer the original question, "What really happens in a real fight?", it varies from person to person, not only from a training point of view, but from genetics and experience.

For example, during my initial experiences in fighting, I got tunnel-vision--bad tunnel-vision. I have trained myself to the point where I don't tunnel as bad as I used to, but it's still very noticeable. And peripheal vision, although normally very good, only seems to pick up motion.

This can lead to embarrassing incidents, such as the one where I went through a house at high-speed looking for a critter, and missed his lady. She was curled up on the couch as small as she could make herself and was not moving. My peripheal vision apparently ignored her, even though she was in plain sight as I passed less than six feet away from her.

Other senses (smell, hearing, touch, time, etc.) will also start doing really wierd things.

During an intial contact, your training may seem to you to vanish. It's my experince that the training is there, you simply have so many other things on your mind that you don't realize you're using it.

Case in point: a young officer and I were got involved in a scuffle that went rodeo in a hurry. I saw the officer pull his sidearm and use it to bring the situation under control, he used a very nice fast draw to do it. When the critter proned out, the officer replaced the sidearm in his holster, using the palm of his hand to ensure the weapon was seated, and snapped the retaining strap -- exactly as he had trained. After the fight, he swore that he had never pulled his sidearm, and was rather upset about it. We had to show him the cruiser cam footage before he'd believe that he had actually drawn his weapon.

Most important, if your training completely deserts you at the beginning of the fracas, it will more than likely come back after the critter's first punch connects. And the training allows you to control the panic and gives you the confidence to control the situation.

LawDog

LASur5r
September 26, 2000, 09:37 AM
Lawdog,
You brought up a really interesting point which I had observed but had forgotten.
Sometimes, it took a punch from the other guy before I got my self aligned and really ready to go.(Sort of a kick start...or a kick in the a**!)
Wonder if that's from too many hits in the head or just slow?

I remember reading accounts of the old fisticuffs where one or the other boxers took a couple punches first then they were ready to fight.
The trouble is, I am much older now and I don't want to take that first punch...might melt or something.

dragontooth73
September 26, 2000, 12:01 PM
actually there's a phenomenon called *musha burui* (lit. "warrior shivers") ... that's the japanese name for it ... where before battle you'd shiver (literally) with anticipation ... i don't know what to call it here ... but before i get *amped* i always get this ... i don't immediately kick-start into a high-adrenalin rush mode, whether that's to my detriment or not ... i don't need to get hit to go into it, but i do need a few minutes of continuous shaking (in anger) with some teeth clenching before i kick in ... afterwards i feel extremely tired and need to eat about 7000cal and get 16 hours rest before i am ok :)

LASur5r
September 26, 2000, 01:18 PM
Dragontooth73,
Is that before a fight? or before being "intimate" with a lady? :) :) :D

dragontooth73
September 26, 2000, 02:45 PM
hai hai ... you got me back for the AD crack in the other thread didn't you ... :p

LASur5r
September 27, 2000, 04:51 PM
Dragontooth 73,
Gomen nasai...I did not intend to get you back.
Just some kidding around. Did not mean to offend.
Regarding the "old practice" and what we strived to achieve, it was a nice dream and it was great practice in those old days...I guess it was like the times where you fought men of "honor" and they fought with the same understanding of the rules that you did.
BTW, Dragontooth 73, did you ever see the old Black and white movie, "Judo Saga?" That was a good movie, except it was dark in some areas of the film...it inspired many boys to sign up at the local judo dojo.
Skorzeny, when you are young and idealistic and raised on movie heroes like "Tange Zazen" or Zato Ichi, or many of the other make believe heroes...we thought that was so neat. Samurai sword on one hip and gun on other hip. It inspired you enough to join a martial art school.
Skorzeny and Dragontooth, where the trouble was that we thought that ability was readily attainable. And that was real fighting.
Reality check...not experiencing the difference and not knowing the difference was rampant in the old day dojo's. Like I said, at that time we fought fair fights so we could experiment and try and learn the hard way.
Enter street fighters and boxers and JKD and others and many, many of us came to a screeching halt against reality. It was hard to accept that what you had been studying and believing in all that time could not and would not work in a real fight...and as I said, I know of many martial artists who were seriously injured trying to make it work.
IMHO, I think alot of it didn't work because you didn't dare because of the large amount of injuries, lawsuits, and insurance. And I think a lot of instructors didn't want to make the transition and many didn't know how to make it work.
I know after getting thoroughly whipped by Bruce, I wandered around trying to figure it out...total denial. I returned often because I lived in a different part of the state and even offered to give up my college and teaching M.A. to learn under him.
He told me to get rid of the garbage, I knew more than enough techniques...according to him, and I had to find what worked for me in the simplest and fastest way.
I hung around with Golden Glove boxers and eventually an ex-Navy boxer that brought me closer to reality, but styles that put it all together with realistic training? those were few and far between.

Anyway...thanks to you all...if only I could go on the path in the search for truth again...Ronin style...ah...dream on...reality is right in front of my face and i don't see it yet. So is my wife and she sees that faraway look on my face on it and she is shaking her head no.

dragontooth73
September 27, 2000, 09:29 PM
LASur5er, you seem to think of going on a "musha shugyo" (lit. warrior studies) trip ... sounds fun, but if your wife says you're past the age to hone "garoh ken" (lit. hungry wolf fist, a term for any self-honed martial art) then stay home. i think you're skilled enough. if bruce lee said so, who am i to argue ... who is anyone else to do so.

have fun with the thought though ... can't believe you saw the zatoichi series of flicks LOL ... ya the new adaptation by katsu shintaro was fantastic. too bad he died (cocaine-induced heart failure).

fubsy
September 28, 2000, 06:36 PM
I am going to relate an actual event that occured two days ago.....Im not going to go into extreme detail, and I dont think my friend will mind me relating this....the story was listed in the Citrus County Chronicle.
Two days ago my friend was attacked in his store by a young man wielding a samauri sword. The guy managed to enter the store and stab my friend in the chest, the chair my friend was in gave way, he missed the grab for his gun and the kid came around the counter and continued his attack. My friend realizing that bare hands against a sword is not good medicine tried to evade the attack by going to a back room(they were hemmed in by the counter they were behind), he dosent get the door secured before the kid is on him again, my friend gets to his desk in the back room trying to secure another loaded firearm and he then remembers that gun is apart for repairs and the kid delivers a brutal stroke, the blade penetrated the left side and came out the right side. Continuing to struggle my friend is trying to control this blade and this kid when he remembers he has a loaded 25acp in pockett, retrieving the pistol he shoots the kid in face. My friend is alive because he didnt quit....he had suffered wounds which should have incapcitated or quite possibly have killed him, but he stayed in the fight.
"what happens in a real fight"----O'toole shows up......and you just keep fighting or you die.... fubsy...

One other thing the kid was 5'2" 140lbs, my friend is 6'3" and 230lbs and he could hardly handle the kid....fubsy.

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited September 28, 2000).]

LASur5r
September 28, 2000, 07:11 PM
Fubsy,
I am glad to hear that your friend is alive and well?

My grandpa told me "Never get in a fight with someone that has more to lose than you do."

Your friend obviously felt that he wanted to live...more than the other guy. Good on him.

Our prayers go with him for a speedy and healthy recovery.

fubsy
September 28, 2000, 07:25 PM
Lasur5r,
My friend has been split down the middle by doctors having to check his internal organs........he is in pain and the road to recovery will be long, and Im sure to be forced to take a life is unsettling even when it is in defense of your own.
Ill tell ya this much, my friend is quite a good pistolero, has had many years of leo experience prior to retiring to run his own business. He is a superb marksmen and a good tactician and it was all he could do to win....fubsy....

LASur5r
September 29, 2000, 02:27 PM
Fubsy,
Stay safe, bud.
Your friend needs you and your support.
Keep us posted as to his progress and if there's anything needed?

dragontooth73
September 30, 2000, 04:33 PM
God bless your friend fubsy ... keep him safe and grant him a swift recovery.

Just goes to show that what happens in a real fight is that good people get hurt ...

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 30, 2000).]

fubsy
October 1, 2000, 03:39 AM
thankyou,....there is interesting hindsight here......
1. its the gun you have on you that will save your life....not the one near you. How many times have we all heard that?...its still true.
2. try to get seperation when appropriate.
3. If possible, improvise anything for a weapon.
4. the mind does crazy things under stress, such as forgetting the 2nd back up is in your pockett, or the pistol your going to is down for repairs, or on the work bench near the desk is a loaded beretta 92fs. No matter how dire the situation dont quit fighting. Also that you have been stabbed and not slashed. And Im sure they'll be more to pop up.
5. After you have survived the immediate outcome of the fight....you have to survive the injuries, plan on an income till your well, your obligations will continue. Clean up your store and prepare to reopen. And answer endless question by caring concerned and nosey friends..lol...
Also to deal with the aftermath of the trauma, ..........say a prayer for the kid and his suffering parents, and give thanks that the sword was really not a "samuri" sword as the press reported, but a straight bladed knock-off "ninja" type, wereas if the blade had been a curved Katana, the withdrawl during the struggle might have destroyed some internal organs and finished what the kid started.
this type of tragedy effects you in many ways.....every time he will take his shirt off there will be visible reminders---but he is adaptable and strong individual, he is recovering fine and thankyou all for the prayers and best wishes. .....fubsy.....