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NJ-Dirtrdr
April 27, 2011, 07:18 PM
Sad story. With 14 people in the room (8 US Military, 1 US Contractor, 5 Afghans) I'm shocked that this individual was able to kill every American in the room, wound every Afghan, and still have a round left to kill himself.

ABC Evening News was quoted saying the weapon used was a "US issued handgun". Surmising it was probably the M9, or Beretta 92FS (15 round capacity), he either had incredible shot placement, or reloaded mid-rampage. I'm guessing either method would take probably 15-30 seconds to empty the weapon, an eternity when you're watching your team mates getting shot at the hands of a madman.

Just can't believe someone didn't act in that room. As a former military pilot, I can attest we don't get enough time on the range, (read: familiarity with handguns) but I still would have thought there would be enough cognizance to realize that he can only shoot one person at a time, and getting inside his OODA loop would have served to improve surviability odds.

So, to keep this on topic, assume you are unarmed. Has there been enough active shooter episodes in the last decade to prove that inaction leads to the worst outcome? Armchair quarterbacking this one serves little purpose...we don't know the layout of the room, how stable he was before the episode, etc. But is the general populace's opinion that playing possum is the best answer, or have we learned our lesson yet?

Update to this article, all 8 service members have been identified as American
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jQ3eg-Ni8BH9JPn8zk15cUgXvDhA?docId=0c3565e0f8c8401197c9b670f2663c38 (Associated Press)

Code3GT
April 27, 2011, 07:30 PM
Is it a possibility that the victims were unarmed? I remember having to unload our weapons prior to entering the chow hall due to other service members being uncomfortable around loaded firearms. This was also the moment I decided not to re-enlist.

geetarman
April 27, 2011, 08:03 PM
The news report said all were armed. The killer left the room and came back and dis-armed the other people in the room.

If the good guys were going to do ANYTHING, that was the time for action.

It really makes you wonder if those guys were OBE, what in the world would some college classroom be able to do to stop the carnage.

The killer has the advantage of selecting the time and the place and the method.

Considering the danger all our troops have every day, one has to ask why we are still there.

Geetarman:confused:

gearhounds
April 27, 2011, 08:12 PM
"Is it a possibility that the victims were unarmed? I remember having to unload our weapons prior to entering the chow hall due to other service members being uncomfortable around loaded firearms. This was also the moment I decided not to re-enlist."

Ridiculous, and I could understand how the writing on the wall would discourage a good soldier from hanging around. It takes you from armed combatant, to possibly what we see above in the original post; a victim.

Back on post: Stay perpetually in condition yellow under all circumstances, and be ready to ramp it up at a moments notice; you are a combatant in a war zone, no matter how safe you are told you are in certain areas. This guy couldn't shoot everybody at once, so I suppose the first step would be to get moving. A moving target is much harder to hit than a static one. Look for anything that could work as a weapon, or an avenue of escape, and then locate a weapon. Obviously, never give up.

mnero
April 27, 2011, 08:14 PM
Indeed why are we there The English couldnt' tame that place in the 19th century, the Russians failed to in the 20th century. I doubt we can do any better in the 21st century; beyond that I can't comment, I wasn't there; I don't know...I just don't know.

THEZACHARIAS
April 27, 2011, 08:16 PM
In some cases, coalition forces will defer to tribal custom during meetings. One of those is attending un-armed as a demonstration of trust; knowing that, it would be very easy for a LN to take advantage of the situation. Meetings usually take place in small or cramped areas, so firing 15 semi-accurate shots in 5-10 seconds with minimal resistance isn't out of the question.

It sounds like there is a lot of information not being shared about this story, as this is an extreme example of something that happens on an all too regular basis. I honestly don't know why we still work alongside them, when there are hundreds (if not thousands) of documented cases of ANA and ANP turning on coalition personnel and either wounding or killing them.

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 08:29 PM
Not sure how tribal meetings came up. Reports I read said the shooter was an Afghan Air Force pilot (a 50yo, pre-Taliban veteran colonel), and the shooting happened at a hangar.

THEZACHARIAS
April 27, 2011, 08:39 PM
Tribal custom applies to just about everything over there. Just because they fly a 20 year old helicopter doesn't stop them from applying 3,000 year old tribal law to their everyday life. That includes avenging perceived insults to ones honor (in this case, because the shooting happened after an argument it suggests the afghan pilot was personally insulted and felt compelled to seek retribution).

ISAF policy doesnt help matters either.

NJ-Dirtrdr
April 27, 2011, 09:49 PM
'THEZACHARIAS' is right. Pastunwali above all else, and a core tenant of that code is avenging any perceived attack on one's honor, as well as the revenge for a fallen tribal member. Ironically, this "Eye for an Eye" custom results in a relatively low murder rate among commoners over there. It works against the foreigner however (USA).

Pashtun proverb: "I against my brother. My brother and I against my cousin. Me, my brother and my cousins against the stranger".

To bring this back on topic, my unit had "Active shooter" training after the Fort Hood shootings. It called upon us to identify any subvertive behavior leading up to a potential shooting, and if a shooting happens, lock ourselves in an area away from the shooter. Not all that helpful...

If I'm not mistaken, the police tactics used to be lock the place down and wait for the big guns (SWAT). As I currently understand it, law enforcement has shifted to a strategy of first on scene, first to take action. If above is true (please confirm), then why haven't those tactics been broadcast for the rest of us to train with.

oldkim
April 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the police tactics used to be lock the place down and wait for the big guns (SWAT). As I currently understand it, law enforcement has shifted to a strategy of first on scene, first to take action. If above is true (please confirm), then why haven't those tactics been broadcast for the rest of us to train with.

This is true when applied more after the school shootings. But responders are no longer being trained to wait but to enter and clear as soon as possible with what they felt was enough manpower to initially enter.

Training ideals take time to trickle down, especially when it's from the civilian side... to military.

Look at the trauma systems incorporated "in theatre." The civilian side has used a trauma system that sends the injured directly to.. rather then through a system or network of levels of triage and treatment. Of course, battles are fought a bit differently now than 60+ years ago.

As for the post: look at flight 93 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93 Yes, the brave men and women died but they prevented a greater tragedy...

I would say FIGHT! Keep Fighting and Fight with everything you have. A pencil or anything you can get your hands on.

MLeake
April 28, 2011, 12:19 PM
I never really understood why training videos for OCONUS travel still discouraged resistance. (Note: with regard to individual travel, not combatant operations.) The paradigm for terrorists, in many cases, has shifted from hostage-taking for capital gain, to hostage-taking for use in execution videos.

I think there are some in leadership / management who always feel the best answer is to go quietly and wait for the cavalry.

One would think between 9/11, school shootings, and net executions they'd have had a change in thought process.