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plateshooter
September 9, 2000, 06:31 PM
Lets say you are attacked by a large dog. He has your weak arm and you have an open folding knife in your right hand. Are there any recommended tactics, or proven methods that are used to end the fight?

Spadone
September 10, 2000, 06:14 AM
I've been told that pushing your arm into a dog bite will trigger a gag reflex.

Spadone
September 10, 2000, 07:01 AM
3 years ago, I was walking my dog, and it was attacked by a very big Rott. I kicked that dog repeatedly with my boot and it didn't flinch.I'm also curious as to handle situations like this.

fubsy
September 10, 2000, 08:29 AM
It really will depend on the dog. If I dont have an option Im still not sticking my arm in that dogs mouth. I have pitbull's and have owned dobermans--Im not giving them a handle to drag me around with. The damage that can be done is enormous, muscles seperated from the bone, tendons pulled out, bones broken---your arm is useless for ever more.
Here is what you can do, work out a way to choke the dog, use your belt, his collar, a naked arm choke and then either hold him up against a wall or a tree, if your strong enough, or if you take him to the ground keep fighting him dont think for a second he's gonna quit...its best not to be bitten, take your asp and slamm it in the head before he gets ya......a cane a walking stick.....Ive used a shovel against a rather large aggressive rott....worked real good. Look at him and act like he is dinner and go for it...fubsy.

TaxPhd
September 10, 2000, 08:57 AM
Big dogs are powerfully built in the chest/shoulder area which can have a negative effect on a knife attack to that area.

A dogs soft spot is the belly and area immediately forward of the hind legs. Stab/slash repeatedly in this area until the attack stops.

plateshooter
September 10, 2000, 12:53 PM
Thanks for your replies. I was thinking about cutting his nose off or taking out his eyes. I have never had a big dog or been attacked by one but I do run into the threats on occasion on bike and hike trails. I thought maybe the military or some other organization may have some time tested methods. I carry a razor sharp folding knife, but I doubt it would cut through the hair very easily. That's why I was looking at areas that have no hair on them. I guess I should look into some pepper spray also.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter

CITADELGRAD87
September 10, 2000, 02:32 PM
I have owned Rotts for several years.

You DO NOT want to be screwing around with the teeth end. I wouldn't go near one with anything less than an aluminum bat (BTW--DO NOT MISS). Knives simply require you to get too close.

I carry pepper spray, but have decided after watching video of large dogs attacking that there isn't really time to wait and see if the spray is working, so I'll do a dual draw, and probably shoot, it is really that dangerous.

Sometimes they will "feel you out" before charging, I personally have stopped a 2 rott attack ( not mine) with pepper spray and very aggressive arm waving, shouting, etc, but it was at this stage, before they had decided what to do.

Most bites I know of are when a large dog attacks a smaller one and the humans intervene. I don't think this is wise, but have been told there is a right way to do this--pick up the attacker by the back legs, it will stop attacking. I never thought until typing this that there must be a step 2, I mean how long can I hold up a 110 lb dog, how far can I throw it, etc.

I just heard of a mauling in TEXAS where a Rott atacked a small dog, somebody got a hose to break it up and got severely bitten on both hands. It surprised me that she was attacked, but I don't know how close she got.

Secmat
September 10, 2000, 03:37 PM
A twist to add to the lifting of the rear legs. If you have the strength, pull sharply outward when the legs are off the ground. Not only can the torn hips disable the rear legs, it causes excruciating pain to the animal.

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"Those who dance are thought mad by those that don't hear the music."

LASur5r
September 10, 2000, 04:57 PM
My .02cents,
Some years back, I went to a friend's house. I hadn't seen him for about a year. His dog (rott) was sleeping on the couch next to the front door. My friend opened the door and then the screen door to let me in. We had been talking a good minute through the screen door with no reaction from the dog, but when my friend let me in and he reached out to shake hands...I was reaching out towards my friend's extended hand with my right hand..that Rott sprang out of that couch and chomped down on my forearm in a heartbeat. In the next second, he had shaken my arm while bearing down with his vice like jaw and teeth. I believe if I was a cat or rabbit, it would have snapped its neck.
Luckily, for me, I was into T'ai Chi and JKD trapping at that time, so I went with the shaking motions, but it had my strong arm! I immediately went into eye jab/rake with my left hand, then throat jab with open hand. I locked on into a one hand strangle around it's adam's apple?
The dog continued to shake it's head from side to side...This was dog fu to it's dirtiest!! Then it loosened its grip just a little and I kind of pulled my arm back with my free left hand.
Even in judo,jiujitsu, and hapkido, I have never experienced such a quick and violent attack in such a short time. I believe if I had stood my ground and tried to defend with muscle strength, I would have deep puncture wounds and lacerations if not broken bones and torn tendons.
Just then, my friend jumped in and grabbed his dog around the neck with his arm. Thus separating the two of us. I stepped back out of the screen and front door and shakily said, "Maybe we can get together some other time, when it's more appropriate."
I had my foot firmly against the door in case the dog wanted to have another go.
All my friend could say was that "his dog had never done that before...and that he was sorry."
I immediately washed my arm with a garden hose and went to my nearby hospital to get my arm patched up and x-rayed.
True story.

I don't think I couold have gotten to my folder if I had one because it was on my dominant hand side. I carry two now.

Gino
September 10, 2000, 05:21 PM
I've got a small dog that I walk around three times a day. We've had some problems with loose dogs running around. A Dobbie attacked us and sent my dog to the vet and had to have surgery.

Now I don't walk him without a large can of pepper spray and a gun. If any dog comes up to us and refuses to stop when I verbally confront him, I'm prob going to shoot. If enough time, I'll try the pepper spray, which I keep in my hand. But these things happen SO FAST, that you prob only have time for ONE MOVE. If you choose the pepper spray and it doesn't work, the dog is going to be in contact with you before you have the chance to go for the gun.

Dogs deserve a LARGE amount of respect. I'd rather have to take one of YOU on before I go up against another Rot...

sks
September 10, 2000, 09:13 PM
If you see the attack coming in time prepare to punch the dog in the eye. Don't mess around with the punch but give it all you've got. Dog's don't think out their attack they just go for it. Normally for the throat.

I've owned Dobes for years and my present company consists of a 100 lb male and a 75 lb female. Have worked with some trainers over the years, both military and civilian so I'm accustomed to big dogs.

Whatever you do don't run. If it is life or death, yes the shoving you are far back into the mouth does work, although you will get bit and torn up some. However, that is better than being dead.

If you've got the knife go for the throat or the underbelly, although that can be hard to reach. A solid punch to the eye area will normally leave the dog sort of messed up for a couple of seconds. And as was stated above, choke it if you can. It might not be pretty but you can take on and defeat just about any dog. The key is to THINK!

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The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!

Glamdring
September 11, 2000, 12:32 AM
I have worked with people who trained dogs before [both K9 cops and professional trainers of Personal Protection Dogs] the reaching to shake hands, or similar, is something that does cause problems on occasion. My @.02, I think the dogs see it as an attack either by their owner against you, or by you the stranger...and just come to the aid of their pack in either case.

The guy I worked with that trained Protection dogs, had on more than one occasion saved a strangers arm because he was side stepping to block his dogs lung when people went to shake his hand. The dog would end up crashing into his owner on those occaisions.

radom
September 11, 2000, 01:36 AM
The best I could say is just hope it has a collar you can get a grip on if you have a free hand. Grip, twist and strangle and I mean strangle. It is a bit of a if but if you can get a grip it will put you in control. sure has to beat trying to swing them around by the tail. :) :)

dragontooth73
September 11, 2000, 11:34 AM
my $.02

i used to have a samoyed ... my dog was pretty much left alone by all the others (which was good coz i loved my sammy and would have pulverized anything that would have hurt him) and when i walked friend's dogz they pretty much had the run of the area.

if i had my arm taken in a bite, first of all i'd not try to disengage it. a zookeepeer once told me that the wolves he handled had jaw pressure of 2000lbs per square inch. they'd take frozen meat and shred it like wheaties. dogs being descended from that. i have no illusions of prying my arm loose unless the dog cooperates, or it is already dead.

in an attack i wouldn't dream of drawing a knife to stab. dogs are just too protected in the chest region (bone, muscle, hair) to hit effectively ... trying to go for the throat or chest while the dog is shaking its head violently risks my own wrist and arm to the blade. i'd either slam its exposed nose with my bare palm repeatedly, or go for the center of the brows where the bone grooves with the hilt of a folding knife or something similar. i wonder if these are the right choices, and if an expert could tell me.

personally i think its sad to have to end up doing that to a dog :(

fedaykin
September 11, 2000, 05:18 PM
I remember reading about a fellow in L.A. who was attacked by a rott. He tried running but the dog easily ran him down and started going to work. Witnesses say the guy was screaming for his life, then the guy just flipped out and grabbed onto the rott and started biting into its neck and killed it!!
I had to shoot my roomates wolf/husky hybrid when he "turned" in a house full of guests at our party. The round was a cor-bon .40 135hr jhp at 1,300 fps. The round hit him almost center chest, then broke several bones missing his heart and breaking his shoulder bone coming out the back side. The bullet then went into a couch (with people on it) next to him and came out of the couch, flew by my head and landed in the kitchen behind me. It was the worst day of my life. I loved that damn dog. But he stayed alive for some time. We took him to get emergency care, but he died the next morning. His blood transfusion was not taking. The cor-bon round did not deform at all by the way. I think it hit to many bones. When the doc showed us the x-ray of all the bones smashed and broken, i was shocked. She said she has heard of that (them turning on people) with wolves and wolf hybrids.
anyone else hear of that?

dragontooth73
September 11, 2000, 07:23 PM
oya. countless stories when i was living in british columbia. poor dog :( sorry your day was so bad fedaykin.

Jarhead_22
September 12, 2000, 10:17 AM
My First Post!

When I was 16, I was attacked by a Doberman. I was walking through an open field and spotted the Dobie running downhill at me from about 20 yards, not barking at all, just chugging it out. I swung my bookbag at his head and missed, at which point he bit down on my right forearm/elbow. He was up on his hind legs with his front paws on my chest, kind of yanking back and forth. I couldn't pull loose of him, so I jammed my elbow into his open mouth, hugged him around the neck/shoulders and jumped forward, landing prone on top of him. When I heard the air go out of him, I started punching the face and neck, then grabbed his snout and pressed it to the ground above his head, yanked my arm loose and ran and jumped a fence into a neighbor's yard with the Dobie hot on my heels. After about ten or fifteen minutes the dog took off, and I went home and washed up. I took a few stitches, but suffered no permanent damage.

In hindsight, I don't know what else I could have done, except running right for the fence straight off. Baseball bats have remarkable temper-adjusting abilities, but don't fit into bookbags that well.

Jarhead



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The gun you surrender will be melted down to form the chains you will wear from then on.

KaMaKaZe
September 12, 2000, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plateshooter:
Lets say you are attacked by a large dog. He has your weak arm and you have an open folding knife in your right hand. Are there any recommended tactics, or proven methods that are used to end the fight? [/quote]

Assuming the dog already had your arm, you are in very close proximity to the dog.. *duh* leading me to believe the quickest way to end the situation is several jabs to the throat or base of the neck.


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

Chris D
September 12, 2000, 04:09 PM
Last winter at night i went to pick up some stuff at a friends apartment. As I left his place, a Black Lab seemingly came out of nowhere and was between me and my car. Since my friend wasen't home I had no retreat. I (amazingly quick) grabed my .38 out of my jacket pocket without a thought and had it pointed at the dogs head. (he was 4-5 feet away and barking agressivly) At that moment a second black lab came up and stood 10ft away.

Though shooting would have been the easy option, I was thinking if he charged I'd kick first shoot second. but since there were two, shooting would have been my call. maybe the bang would scare the second dog off?

Moments later the owner walked up the street and called the dogs. the owner must have seen my gun as it's silver anodized and I was not shy about pointing it. as soon as the dogs backed off I put it in my side pocket with my hand still on it. The owner never said anything to me and i was a bit to shocked to comment (read, bitch at the dogs owners).

Glad I was armed! Beat's being mauled by two dogs. Better yet I'm glad nothing happend!

Stay safe!

oberkommando
September 13, 2000, 06:24 AM
I Keep a benelli under trench coat for dogs ;)

I frequently walk two small dog at night and so I can keep their lead together I put a steel pipe through the loop ends, you know, its easier to untangle them when they criss cross each other. Keep a cold steel voyager 5" serrated tanto point and tack light in pouch fornt center. Will use steel pipe first if possible, if not will offer weak arm and start carving up bottom of throat with the serrated blade, if no luck hopefully will have time to stab tanto through skull if necessary. I figure if I can carry a 140-160lbs dumbell around gym with one arm a rott aint gonna be that hard considering I dont even have to have a good grip he'll be doing that for me :)

Also heard that ammonia in spray bottle works good? Or maybe mix a little bleach in with it for good measure, just dont take a whiff.

Jarhead_22
September 13, 2000, 09:15 AM
Just FYI:

Ammonia reacts with bleach and releases chlorine gas, which is colorless, odorless and seriously poisonous. This is not something you want to carry around in a plastic spray bottle.

Jarhead

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The gun you surrender will be melted down to form the chains you will wear from then on.

Steel
September 13, 2000, 08:08 PM
Spadone : Re your dog question. My experience
with dangerous canines has largely been during my tenure as a cop, a few years ago.
My first line of defense, generally, was an
"Asp" baton across the nose or to the dogs'legs (even BIG dogs have a lot of exposed bone - works well. I never had to shoot a dog and I would reiterate what another person wrote in...do not run from a ******-off dog. Try to maintain a "face-to-face" encounter. Last suggestion, if you do not have some sort of baton-type weapon or do not feel comfortable punching a dog : if it's a male and you are so unlucky as to have an arm in its mouth, the ntry with all that is within you to grab his family jewels and have at it...he is sure to detract.

Number 6
September 13, 2000, 09:51 PM
When I go walking I carry a 5 foot oak walking stick. Once when my dog was a puppy the neighbor's big German Shepherd came after him. So I took a 2 handed stance and tapped the Shepherd on the side of the head hard enough to turn him around in mid jump...I guess he weighted about 80-100 pounds and as hairy as he was his head was the optimum target. It left a big welp on the side of his head but except for a markedly improved attitude didn't permanently change him. He never tried to hurt the puppy again for sure. :D

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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Homer Simpson... but attributed to Algore.

sks
September 13, 2000, 09:53 PM
Dragontooth,

Just for the record, we humans have almost the same psi in our bite as do wolves and great white sharks. What makes the big difference is the shape of our teeth and how our jaws work. That's not to say that I'm going to stick my arm in a sharks jaws while I flip out the spyderco and gut him. :)

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The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!

dragontooth73
September 14, 2000, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steel:
Spadone : Re your dog question. My experience
with dangerous canines has largely been during my tenure as a cop, a few years ago.
My first line of defense, generally, was an
"Asp" baton across the nose or to the dogs'legs (even BIG dogs have a lot of exposed bone - works well. I never had to shoot a dog and I would reiterate what another person wrote in...do not run from a ******-off dog. Try to maintain a "face-to-face" encounter. Last suggestion, if you do not have some sort of baton-type weapon or do not feel comfortable punching a dog : if it's a male and you are so unlucky as to have an arm in its mouth, the ntry with all that is within you to grab his family jewels and have at it...he is sure to detract.
[/quote]

um ... so what happens when the dog is a female?

Steel
September 14, 2000, 08:29 PM
Good point on the female dog issue. I am aligned with others in my opinion(in addition to the nose and leg weaknesses I mentioned previously)that the stomach is also a male/female dog that is sensitive. Cut, grab, etc., this soft tissue.

Para Bellum
January 8, 2005, 04:18 PM
Answering the question which I had asked myself before: I'd cut and stab the dogs throat until it stops moving. This is the only part in your reach in the situation described which is vital and not covered by ribs or skull.

Recently I walked in a park. 5 dogs (2 big, 3 medium sized) ran towards me. No owners in side, no lashes... I stopped. After the dogs were 30yds close, I pulled my 9mm and checked out where I could fire a safe warning-shot into. There was plain lawn beside my path. The dogs ran closer. As they were 5yds before me I fired. :)

I didn't even fire in the direction of the dogs, but right into the lawn at my side. The dogs virtually truned 180° in a split second and dashed away.

Take care.

DarkKnight01
January 9, 2005, 02:53 AM
lots of good advice here, first thing you have to realize is dogs are VERY tuff... we used to have english bull dogs.. these dogs were bred to kill bulls.. a dogs skull structure is much stronger than ours.. and as others have mentioned their upper torso area is very strong... ive seen one of our bulldogs get hit by a truck fly about 25 feet land and tumble another 20 feet.. and just get up and walk away and coughed to catch her breath.. most humans would have serious damage and possibly die from such a blow from a full sized truck.. all together their much stronger than a human... they have less weak spots than we do, and as i mentioned their skull is VERY strong... you can strike a dog in the skull with a blunt object hard enough to kill a human and have almost no effect on the dog.. your best bet is to think like a dog... dogs work on pack order and submit under certain conditions... if the dog is on your right arm.... grab its throat with your left arm and force it to the ground.... once your on top of him your showing that you are dominant and grabbing the throat is instinct for them as it should be for you against a dog... dogs kill by grabbing the throat of their prey... lay on top of the animal and choke him til hes about to die... then release him and see what happens.... he will most likely go away... youve proven to be the bigger stronger dominant dog... however the best way to end the attack is to shoot it before it gets to you... this is perfectly legal and is the fault of the owners... which you can sue them even if the dog never made it close enough to harm you... you can sue them for negligence... dogs have killed many people and your well within your rights to kill one thats ready to attack... i would have no second thoughts about putting a bullet in the head of a charging rott or any breed for that matter.... good luck and when faced by a dog think like a dog =)

38splfan
January 9, 2005, 03:49 AM
Once the dog has my arm, I am shooting it.

My parents own a full-blooded German Shepard that likes to play rough. She is very fond of nipping at arms/hands.
I have found punching in the ribs/stomach firmly to be effective if dog is playful, so maybe punching full force would be effective for attack?

If a knife is all that is available, I would stab at the stomach/lower chest near the sternum. (I am feeling my Springer Spaniel's chest area as I type this). They seem to have a very soft area under the sternum that would give access to the heart/lungs if stabbed at an upward angle. THis seems to be a bit too complex to remember during an attack, but it is an option if you can keep your cool. If not, slashing the midsection would seem effective as other vitals are located there. Also, wife just pointed out that genitals may be an effective stopper, probably more for males than females.

caegal
January 9, 2005, 06:53 AM
Years ago I was attacked by a Labrador which was wearing a collar, I managed to grab the collar and litterally lift the dog while twisting the collar. The animal did lose consiousness (or at least close enough), and the owner came and yelled at me! So I guess my tactic would be to go for the collar if it has one, otherwise get a grip around the neck, and with the knife go for a throat cut. Dogs go for the throat, so I suppose I should also.

357MagFan
January 9, 2005, 07:15 AM
If you are attacked by a large dog and would rather fight it than run try and grab his jaw and top muzzle, he will thrash his head violently but I think that the average man is strong enough to hold it, now the thing is you better do something to put him out "like break his neck or suffocate him" because if you let go before hes out you got problems.

I discovered this wrestling with my dogs. I have a black lab and an Alaskan Malamute that weighs 140 lbs and hes not fat. Also if you jab your thumb as far back on the tongue as you can go "and I mean hard" it wiLL cause them to gag. also show the dog you are the boss, stare him down and act like you have the power to kill him and most of the time the dog will submit.

Rojoe67
January 9, 2005, 09:36 AM
If a dog would find me in his sights and I wasn't armed or felt that a firearm wasn't the answer for safety or other reasons here is my plan....

1. Stay in a position head on with the animal
2. If you can reach or have any object to help in the fight make it ready.
example,,, stick, rock, car keys, leather belt, jacket, lawn chair.......anything you can use to protect yourself.
3. If you can use your voice in hopes to get support to your fight...and maybe the owner will hear what is going on. The animal might understand your going to kick it's butt if it continues it's actions.
4. I was near a vehicle when I was charged so I jumped on the hood and maintained a height distance and advantage of the high ground. The dog wasn't able to reach me. At that point I raised all hell until the owner came out and pulled his dog back home.
5. If all above have failed and your now into it with the dog...... as with a lot of creatures it's nose is very good spot to put a hurting. As all are aware the sharp teeth are darn close to the nose so don't hang out in this area. Make the punch or jab with your closed fist fast and deliberate. The animals eyes are another spot of good target to slow or stop his attack.
6. Stay positive and stay eye to eye....dont turn your back, dont run away and if you slip and fall get up instantly and continue the fight. Don't forget your the human and your way smarter than an animal so think about what you are doing or will do.... DON'T CORNER THE ANIMAL OR YOU WILL TURN HIM INTO MORE OF A WOLVERINE THAN A DOG...... now he is what you were previous......and will fight a heck of a lot harder.
7. If you were the victim of his teeth get medical attention NOW....... as most know bites from humans, cats and dogs.....and any animal are able to kill you in a short time because of the bacteria in the siliva.
8. Your life is priceless.......the animal is a small dollar amount if any.... don't feel bad if you have to dispatch (KILL) it. Don't give it a second thought...... survive and if later your in court you have to deal with the dumb owner than that means you survived and that is the whole purpose........ GOOD LUCK

FrankDrebin
January 9, 2005, 11:19 AM
um ... so what happens when the dog is a female?

Take away her credit cards.....

Meiji_man
January 9, 2005, 11:50 AM
LMAO Frank...
can't let the girlfriend see that one...

If a dog has you by the arm, either strong or weak, take your other hand Put your thumb in one eye, and your middle finger in the other and pick the head up like a six pack. Warning you can get your fingers broke this way as the dog thrashes around, but it will make the dog release.

This also works good on two legged attackers....

Derius_T
January 9, 2005, 08:55 PM
I have been in this situation, and my advise is shoot it now, and shoot it until it stops moving. Now if you are a big burly young man in good health, you may be able to wrestle a dog around for awhile, but most people do not realize how horribly aggressive, and god-awful violent and strong a big dog, like a rottweiler can be. Kill it....kill it as fast as you can to minimize the damage to yourself....don't be macho......be alive....

drufus
January 9, 2005, 09:12 PM
I know this sounds disgusting, but I had a dog trainer tell me to jam your finger or thumb into the dogs anus. :barf: :barf: :barf: I have been attacked three times- one got a 115gr. silvertip, one got a 180gr. 10mm corbon, the other got a face full of halt dog spray.

U.F.O.
January 9, 2005, 09:25 PM
Did you do any dog ballistic comparisons between "fast and light" vs "slow and heavy"? :p (Kidding)

U.F.O.

joab
January 9, 2005, 09:37 PM
I've been attacked a few times, here's what I came up with

As far as lifting the back legs, male dogs have a convient handle if you can get to it :eek:

If it is a frontal attack and you have no other choice.
Give the dog the arm which should be up anyway protecting your face and throat.
As he takes your arm lift the dog up off the ground by the back of the neck with your free hand along with the arm that's in the dog's mouth.
Drive forward and down to the ground with the dog landing flat on his back and your knee in it's chest and your bitten arm driving forward into the dog's mouth possibly dislocating his jaw.
If done with the proper amount of fear and adrenaline it will successfully thwart a wolf hybrid attack

The best possible way is to have something like a purse or length of hose or something similar that he can bite , hold onto and thrash around while you hold onto it
If his mouth is occupied you will satisfy his bite instinct while you back away to safety (hopefully)

Or use the hose to wrap around his neck lift him up and kick hell outta his nads and stomach. This method done properly has detered a determined large mutt attack

Dwight55
January 9, 2005, 11:03 PM
The suggestion to carry a bottle with ammonia & bleach is a deadly suggestion, . . . deadly for the carrier. The gas produced is phosgene, not chlorine, and one good lung full can produce permanent lung damage. More than one lung full can be fatal. Do not do this!!!!!

Many dog owners, trainers, and show persons do carry a small bottle of ammonia and water mixture. They douse a rag with it and throw it on the closest of two dogs fighting, . . . 99% of the time it stops the fight.

I used a balloon with water & ammonia once on a dog that chased my bicycle. It hit the blacktop and splashed on him just a little bit. He never chased me again.

May God bless,
Dwight

Danindetroit
January 9, 2005, 11:30 PM
ammonia & bleach when mixed prduce chlorine gas.
2(parts)NaOCl + 2NH3 --> 2NaONH3 + Cl2

Phosgene gas is a gas that was used in WWI. and is very damaging, it is encountered when plastics burn.

joab
January 9, 2005, 11:51 PM
Depends on the recipe (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/A795611)

Derius_T
January 10, 2005, 12:01 AM
I know this sounds disgusting, but I had a dog trainer tell me to jam your finger or thumb into the dogs anus.

Uhhmmm...... :eek:

tell me......even IFyou decide to try this method.........


how you gonna do it if dog has ahold of your arm........

please, for decencys sake......don't try that........ :eek:

Danindetroit
January 10, 2005, 12:03 AM
None are phosgene gas, I could be wrong, but I believe chlorine, is the easiest chemical created.

XavierBreath
January 10, 2005, 12:13 AM
Lets say you are attacked by a large dog. He has your weak arm and you have an open folding knife in your right hand. Are there any recommended tactics, or proven methods that are used to end the fight?

Getting back to the original question.............
If the dog already has my weak arm in his mouth, and is steadily ripping it apart, and I have a blade in the strong hand, the dog will soon find that blade inserted through his neck right below his cervical spine, even if my hand has to follow it into his flesh. Once deep iside, it is comming down and slicing through his windpipe, tendons and any arteries I can take with it. Dogs have a hard time continuing to bite with their heads practically cut off.

Of course, there are a lot of ways to prevent yourself from being in this predicament in the first place, and they are highly recommended. Given your scenerio though, that is how I would approach the problem.

Blind Tree Frog
January 10, 2005, 12:41 AM
I figure if I can carry a 140-160lbs dumbell around gym with one arm a rott aint gonna be that hard considering I dont even have to have a good grip he'll be doing that for me
I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to say that. 150lbs in dumbell form is hardly the same as 150 lbs of dead weight (say your drunk friend) or a 100lb ball of muscle and teeth that's thrashing. Not saying that you couldn't do that, but the dumbell doesn't generally fight to go in a different direction.

Dwight55
January 10, 2005, 05:09 PM
They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, . . . but sometimes he'll pick up a new thing.

I was wrong in stating that bleach and ammonia produced phosgene gas. I had simply relied on training I was given 35 or so years ago in basic refrigeration class. I was told that burning any of the chlorine rich refrigerants, or mixing bleach and ammonia would produce phosgene, . . . and was told that I took my life in my own hands doing so.

Obviously, after researching my long accepted training, . . . I was wrong.

Thanks for the info, . . . but still don't mix it. Chlorine will seriously mess up your lungs too.

May God bless,
Dwight

keens
January 10, 2005, 06:46 PM
This may be a bit redundant, but if a dog is on my arm, and if I can get my folder out, I am cutting as deep as the AFCK will go...eyes first if I can...then neck area if I can do so safely without cutting myself...I will also go for the spine area...ribs etc. Given a choice with this scenerio, I think the knife may be better than a gun...especially a large knife...the most important thing though in my mind is to suddenly attack back as viciously as the dog with the mindset of kill or be killed.

joab
January 10, 2005, 06:59 PM
the most important thing though in my mind is to suddenly attack back as viciously as the dog with the mindset of kill or be killed. At that point you're in a dog fight. He won't be deterred by brandishing or posturing. Your only hope is to respond with the same relentless fury that he would recieve from another alpha of his own species.

mvpel
January 11, 2005, 12:22 PM
I think it's also important to be able to read canine body language. If a dog is approaching you with its ears down, he's probably more interested in licking your face than seizing your arm.

We had an interesting demonstration of the power of dog jaws on Thanksgiving, when Rufus, my in-laws' 40-pound Welsh Springer Spaniel, reached up on the counter and grabbed a turkey leg. It took three people working together to get him to release his grip on the delicious loot.

CB3
January 11, 2005, 06:24 PM
Having seen a friend's pit bull "play" with a five-pound steel ball bearing, and turn a 3' 2x4 into match sticks for fun in about an hour, I will want to get the fight over sooner rather than later--especially with head shaking and drag attempts going on.

Assuming you already have one arm lost to the dog's mouth . . .

I would suggest, along the lines of many others, that a dog's throat is it's closest and most vulnerable spot. Try to lift the dog up as high as possible and first punch its throat to try to collapse the windpipe. Second move is to grab the throat and throw the dog ahead of you, on it's back, onto the ground and you land on top. Then choke it into submission with both your hands, as the one in it's mouth will likely come free.

The two elements of submission for a dog (most animals) are:

1. On back on ground so legs are useless
2. Throat (kill area) compromised

Take breath away from any animal and it will release/submit.

If a dog is already viciously shaking your arm, getting to your knife or gun and wielding it effectively (especially if you made the mistake of letting the dog get your strong arm) sounds macho but would probably take a lot longer and be more dangerous even to you than using your physical size, leverage, and knowledge of the dog's vulnerabilities to draw the event to its conclusion quicker.

BTW, if you can get a vicious kick or knuckle punch to a dog's throat before he gets to one of your body parts, the fight will likely be over as soon as it starts. Collapse the larynxx/trachea of any animal, including a human, and there won't be any fight left in it. You don't need a gun or knife for this, just knowledge of how to do it.

If I had a knife out and the dog was on my arm, I would go for it's throat. It's close and vulnerable.

Getting behind a dog that's attacking you is about impossible--only good for getting it off someone or something else by grabbing legs or other body parts, and if you don't do substantial damage at that end, it's going to turn and get you. I'd rather kick it with all the force possible between the hind legs--male or female, attempting to break it's pelvis even, rather than grab onto it.

If you have to shoot--I've seen too many anmials shot that do not stop their activities, and it is too hard with all that commotion to think you can get a CNS shot the first time. Break the pelvis or both shoulders and you will stop the attack--just like dangerous game, which a dog attack is.

Just my thoughts. CB3

XavierBreath
January 11, 2005, 07:29 PM
Wow, I thought I was going to get flamed for stating I would practically cut the dog's head off!

I recall one dogfight, between a Golden Retriever and a mutt of like size. The Golden had the mutt's entire neck in it's mouth. We picked up both dog's back legs and pulled and pulled to no avail. We finally took them into the river nearby (we were on the bank) and held both dogs underwater. The Golden continued to hold on for about a minute and a half. He finally let go, and we separated the dogs.

A Golden Retriever is about the friendliest dog out there. This one, (mine) is a big love bucket, but the other dog urinated on my truck tire, and my Golden went bezerk. Since that day, I respect the jaws of any dog.

mvpel
January 12, 2005, 12:49 PM
A friend of my parents', years and years ago, was dog-sitting a chihuaua. This little dog was constantly badgering the friend's German Shepherd, Maggie. Being a very well-trained dog, she put up with it for quite a while.

Finally, there was one irritation too many, and she snatched the chihuahua's head in her mouth, and held it there for about 15 seconds, then let go.

That was the last of her problems from the little ankle-biter. :D

Doug242ti
January 13, 2005, 01:06 AM
um ... so what happens when the dog is a female?

offer it a box of chocalates?

Seems to work for me ;)

(Great thread btw)

Dusty Miller
January 13, 2005, 03:40 AM
YEARS ago whenst I was just a lad I worked as a meter reader for Sc. Ca. Ed. and had to spray a male doberman. I'd heard that they don't bark, just come up to you and start to work. Upon getting sprayed in the face, he stopped, spread his legs and peed on the ground. So, I'm a big believer in spray. I believe a bottle of ammonia will serve as well.

joab
January 13, 2005, 06:40 AM
um ... so what happens when the dog is a female Purple Nurples all around

PzGren
January 16, 2005, 11:20 AM
A Nissan Double Cab pick up backed up and drove over my Great Danes neck with its left rear tire. It did not hurt him.

A surrendering dog will offer its vulnerable parts to you. It will turn onto its back and expose the throat and the soft stomach. Also, most dogs feel pain in the ears very much, this is why they were cropped.

To train little dogs not to play too rough and bite, I press their gums into their teeth.
With a big, powerful dog it is very hard to fight it, dogs can tear and bite at incredible speed. Even for an experienced dog handler it can happen to be outsmarted or simply overpowered.

Rojoe67
January 16, 2005, 01:31 PM
Still hope that the human -even under stress and short time reaction can out think a dog.... I have trained, been around, owned and taken care of dogs for all my life.

#1 - the chocolate idea is funny but it is just that..... We have a friend that have a small mixed dog and it gets into chocolate on a normal basis.... So safe to say it's not the Ole Alka-Seltzer on the seagull routine.

#2 - Like any wild animal to include humans...... If you turn off the brain the creature is no longer a threat.... end of story. If you have a rotts mouth on one of your arms I suggest using the other to kill the animal with the same head shot.... Sure the shot needs some safety thought...cause if you kill your friend whom is trying to free the dog off the other arm you have failed to end the threat to yourself...and you get to live with your bad judgement the rest of your life...

#3 - 99% of dogs that I have seen, run into and read about bark or growl if they are ****** off. I would suggest when you hear his vocal alarms you should plan your safety retreat and actions to defuse a possible attack. We need to act as though we are smarter than the K9.

#4 - I think an awful alot of -what if and -well it could,seem to over power the ability to reason on this topic. Example.... If the police car says K9 on the door....stay back..... I would suggest not trying to put your hand in the window to pet the nice Rin Tin Tin...... If you do......well, all I can say is I hope your able to use the other hand to feed and wipe yourself with.... :D

Lets be safe out there..... have a good day ;)

mvpel
January 17, 2005, 09:43 AM
#1 - the chocolate idea is funny but it is just that..... We have a friend that have a small mixed dog and it gets into chocolate on a normal basis.... So safe to say it's not the Ole Alka-Seltzer on the seagull routine.

Yes, but chocolate is in fact a toxin - theobromine, to be specific.

This chemical is what caffiene is metabolized to in humans, and the effects are similar to caffeine poisoning. Dogs metabolize it much more slowly than humans, so dangerous levels can build up much more quickly.

Generally, one ounce of baking chocolate per 10 pounds of body weight is a toxic dose for dogs.

http://www.dogownersdigest.com/news/library/chocolate-dog-poisoning.shtml

MrBill
January 17, 2005, 05:07 PM
Given the circumstances, I would like to think I would try to cut/puncture the throat. More than likely, his belly would be most accessible. Just keep trying to gut him. Hopefully that particular dogs threshold will not exceed his guts hanging out of his belly. Pit bull did exactly that to my kid sister, my Dad hit it over the shoulders with a 2x4, it let go and ran off. Brother and me found the dog at some house later that evening under someones truck. I had a machete, he had my Dad's old 22 with cheap ammo. Didn't ask no questions. We just put some 22 in him, dragged him out, and went to work on him. What that dog did wasn't going to stand. Everthing turned out okay. Years later, same thing almost happened with my brothers kids, soon as I saw the dog coming, out came my glock23/150's +P's from Cor-bon, i think. Broke the shoulder, no exit, stopped and turned. Dog officers later put the dog down.

swiper1
January 19, 2005, 02:40 AM
I am an Officer in NJ. About three years ago on Superbowl Sunday I was chasing an armed suspect and caught him in an old what I though was abandoned crack house. Inside was a pitbull who's voicebox had been surgically removed by a Vet. I never heard or saw him coming until he was nawing on my right thigh. I couldn't shoot because I would have killed the suspect who was already cuffed on the ground underneath us. As I pulled away to get him off my partner came in and dragged the suspect away from us. Meanwhile another Officer came in and said "Poke your pen inside his mouth underneath his tongue!" So I did and he immediately came off!! I then was forced to shoot several times because the dog lunged at me almost immediately after releasing his grip. So yes sticking a sharp object underneath his tongue will work, but what will you do then?