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LASur5r
August 17, 2000, 03:15 PM
The balloon goes up, TSHTF, you're standing there in the open with your gun in your fastest, hidden gun rig, and your CCW license in your pocket. At what point do you draw your weapon?

Wait for the right opportunity? Timing?
Wait for the BG to swing the weapon in your direction? You'll know the time when you see it?

My wife works in a Credit Union...they used to hit the Credit Union once every week or every other week. I think that they were using their office to practice. SOP is they come in through one of the entrances, 4 or 5 masked guys, one or two jump over the teller's/cashier's counter, pistol whip one employee, then demand the cash.
One time she saw the lead BG pull the balaclava(sp.?)hood over his head as the other four stacked on him, just before they stepped into the lobby. She walked quickly down a short hall before them and stepped into her office opposite the cashier's area and went under her desk to grab her S & Klinton 3913, then "hole up". The BG's went left to the Cashier's counter where the cash and the safe is.

The second time this happened, one of the FBI agents who came to take the report said loud enough for my wife to hear, "Someone's a little chicken here."

When she came home crying, I got his name and office number and demanded an apology. I had to go to his regional supervisor and got a written apology to her.

But when do you decide to draw? Not on the FBI guy...come on you guys...on the BG's?

LawDog
August 17, 2000, 03:33 PM
Just as soon as the actions of another make death or serious bodily injury possible.

LawDog

Ledbetter
August 17, 2000, 05:13 PM
Lawdog is, of course, correct. That would have been at the sight of the first balaclava in the above context.

Things to do before you draw:

Consciously kick yourself into Condition Red ("I am about to shoot somebody").

Seek cover or concealment if no cover available, leaving clear shot at and behind BG.

Place body between holster and BG to obscure draw.

Observe BGs for armor, weaponry, threat. Decide whether to shoot or withdraw. Pick BG to shoot first.

Sorry to hear about how your wife was treated. I think she did the right thing. Sounds like some FBI guy's a little chicken-$hit. Another helpful Fed.

Regards,

Ledbetter

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited August 17, 2000).]

Jeff, CA
August 17, 2000, 08:27 PM
"The second time this happened, one of the FBI agents who came to take the report said loud enough for my wife to hear, 'Someone's a little chicken here.'"

I hope she pointed out that this was coming from the people who used helicopter gunships and tanks against a wood-frame church building. This jerk-off would have done exactly the same thing if he were down 4 to 1.

Sounds to me like she was the only one in the place with her head on straight.

Art Eatman
August 18, 2000, 06:01 AM
1. I realize that firing at the optimum time would most likely be called "vigilante-ism". However, I subscribe to the ancient saying about judged by 12 vs. carried by 6.

2. To me, the sight of the behavior and hoods bring about Condition Red, the draw, and aim; the sight of a weapon causes the hammer to fall--and, "repeat as necessary".

3. The behavior and the hoods, particularly for a second time around, readily justify drawing and aiming. (The "reasonable and prudent person" doctrine.) If they turn to leave, or if it's "merely" a sick joke, you don't have to pull the trigger.

4. It is my personal belief that if a group is unexpectedly fired upon at the intitial instant of confrontation, it will cease the attack and attempt to flee. They are after a perceived soft target and are not intending nor expecting to enter into combat.

FWIW, Art

Gopher .45
August 18, 2000, 11:00 AM
No reason for your wife to be a hero, dead or otherwise. Being a little chicken is a good thing. If I was your wife and the office had a window, chances are I would be out that window as well. Your wife was outgunned most likely (with 4-5 bad guys, I assume they were armed). So, I would suspect that the best she could hope for was to defend herself, which she did quite well. Sure, she may have been able to shoot, one, two, maybe three, but golly, #s 4 and 5 would most certainly have had an ample opportunity to defend themselves and POOF, no more wife. Maybe they Would run as suggested earlier. Maybe they were pros. Maybe your wife shoots one and they shoot three others, missing your wife and now your wife feels like crap because she tried to be a hero and three undefended people died.

Being the only argmed good guy in a take over type of robbery where there are a lot of bystanders is not a good situation if your goal is save all the bystanders.

Watchman
August 18, 2000, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LASur5r:
The balloon goes up, TSHTF, you're standing there in the open with your gun in your fastest, hidden gun rig, and your CCW license in your pocket. At what point do you draw your weapon?

Wait for the right opportunity? Timing?
Wait for the BG to swing the weapon in your direction? You'll know the time when you see it?

My wife works in a Credit Union...they used to hit the Credit Union once every week or every other week. I think that they were using their office to practice. SOP is they come in through one of the entrances, 4 or 5 masked guys, one or two jump over the teller's/cashier's counter, pistol whip one employee, then demand the cash.
One time she saw the lead BG pull the balaclava(sp.?)hood over his head as the other four stacked on him, just before they stepped into the lobby. She walked quickly down a short hall before them and stepped into her office opposite the cashier's area and went under her desk to grab her S & Klinton 3913, then "hole up". The BG's went left to the Cashier's counter where the cash and the safe is.

The second time this happened, one of the FBI agents who came to take the report said loud enough for my wife to hear, "Someone's a little chicken here."

When she came home crying, I got his name and office number and demanded an apology. I had to go to his regional supervisor and got a written apology to her.

But when do you decide to draw? Not on the FBI guy...come on you guys...on the BG's?[/quote]
That was a pretty sorry comment for an agent to make . Im sure he did it without thinking. He was probably a punk tryin to sound macho to anyone in earshot.
FWIW ...I think your wife did the right thing. Unless she has trained extensively in handguns, target aquistion ,threat managnment,CQC and so forth, the 4-1 odds are just too great. There are just too many variables for a citizen to contend with .
The presence of an armed clerk might have made them all freak out. It would have definatley complicated the sitation. As it stood, no one was hurt. Everyone survived. That is the ultimate goal...

Number 6
August 18, 2000, 06:54 PM
In my state you can legally fire only when you have no way to retreat. I'd consider being caught with the armed BG's between me and the door to be a "no retreat" situation and I'd start firing the minute I got a clear target.

Between the decision to draw and the decision to shoot should only be second or two. You ain't gonna catch me "brandishing" a gun at an armed man that's for sure. No warning and no quarter and no turning back and I'd tell the jury that I was afraid for my life before I drew.

------------------
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Homer Simpson... but attributed to Algore.

Art Eatman
August 18, 2000, 11:50 PM
Gopher .45: I have no interest in being a dead hero. If I'm out of position, or if co-workers are exposed, I'd most likely disappear also, and use a phone.

But consider that you are #3 in this group of goblins, a full step from the door. You hear two shots and the two guys in front of you fall in the doorway. What would you do? Advance, or retreat?

The optimum time is when you've identified the threat, but full tactical development by that threat has not yet occurred. This "window of opportunity" is what? Two seconds? Three?

It's the sort of deal where, if you haven't already gone through it in your mind, or the possible scenario is buried in the back of your skull, forget it.

Nuthin's easy.

Art

schlickenmeyer
August 20, 2000, 03:05 PM
As I look at it, If it is not in your hand when trouble starts, you will likely not get to it in time. things happen so quickly. guy with a knife or bat at 21 feet is still less than a second and a half. unless you are related to quickdraw McGraw, better safe than dead.

Johnny Got His Gun.1
August 20, 2000, 04:32 PM
LASur5r,

Your wife did the right thing.

Sun Tzu said to stand your ground and make the enemy come to you. At least the enemy did come to her, but she chose her ground to make a stand.

Bully for her.

Gary H
August 20, 2000, 09:36 PM
Banks universally tell their people not to resist. There is a good reason for this. The statistics are greatly against great bodily harm, but when a gun is drawn those statistics go to hell.

LASur5r
August 21, 2000, 01:25 PM
Thank you all gentlemen,
My wife thanks you for the kind words.
Seems like women don't have the macho stigma to get through. Lucky for them.
After each robbery, I asked her about how she felt, and she handled each time fairly well except when they got her behind the teller counter or the time they got her at the vault w/o her gun. She kept it in the purse in a hidden pocket. After they pistol whipped the unarmed guard is when she started carrying on her body. They did pistol whip several other guards after that, even the armed ones that they caught unaware.
She got kind of fatalistic and a little depressed for a little while, but when she packed then she felt at least she could do something to strike back at the BG's.
Oddly enough, a lot of the guys had to go home for a little R & R after the robberies.
Go figure.

Glamdring
August 31, 2000, 03:57 AM
Sounds like the type of place were Jim Cirillo met a lot of goblins. I think I would get a safer job ASAP.

I would also start wearing body armor and probably 3 or so handguns, and stash a carbine or shotgun somewhere.

And demand some serious upgrades in physical security [physical seperation between clients and tellers for one].

As to the Feeb, I think I would have demanded he be stationed at the bank, with no backup, until the hold ups stopped. :D

LASur5r
August 31, 2000, 10:30 AM
Glamdring,
They finally moved the office to another suburb...shortly after they moved in, armed robberies restarted, but my wife's office was moved to another floor...completely away from the money.
Thanks for your response.