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C0untZer0
April 23, 2011, 11:03 PM
I remember when I was stationed in Arizona, we were getting breakfast at this place and two guys came in wearing six guns on their hips. It seemed pretty simple. I don't think it made anyone uncomfortable. I know me and my buddies didn't care. Probably in Chicago or NYC people would freak but that's another story. When I had to tote around the M1911 (the actual M1911), having a side holster was never a problem, sitting down or getting in and out of vehicles.

I have read on this forum some people live in a state where open carry is legal but they still carry concealed.

I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind it is.

For me, except for in winter, if I carry concealed, I am looking at something like a Kahr PM9 / CM9, Kimber, SIG P290 or something similar, something small. If I can, I'd rather just carry a full sized something or other.

But I'd like to hear other people's thoughts.

Bucks Gun Shop
April 23, 2011, 11:29 PM
Counter:

WA is an open carry state. There are a number of reasons that people still carry concealed here.

1) Element of surprise. Although open provides the element of deterrance.
2) Some places do not allow firearms. What they don't know might just save their life.
3) Firearms make some people uncomfortable. Even when holstered.
4) Avoid problems with law enforcement. You get stopped even in open carry states.

If you are interested in open carry, check out www.opencarry.org. Great bunch of people.

egor20
April 23, 2011, 11:37 PM
I OC when I'm on my farm, when I leave my it, I CC,

Why

I have to go to places where I don't want people to know.
The reason is.... "I don't want people to know"

Simples.

OJ
April 23, 2011, 11:41 PM
Bucks Gun Shop
Member


WA is an open carry state. There are a number of reasons that people still carry concealed here.

1) Element of surprise. Although open provides the element of deterrance.
2) Some places do not allow firearms. What they don't know might just save their life.
3) Firearms make some people uncomfortable. Even when holstered.
4) Avoid problems with law enforcement. You get stopped even in open carry states.


+1

Having reached the age where my "parts" are malfunctioning or even wearing out, I am frequently in some doctor's office and - as said, the sight of a Colt Government Model 45 does make some people uncomfortable and there's no need for this old (nearly 85) surgeon to do that -

Surgeons themselves sometimes make some people in medical circles uncomfortable enough as it is - ;)

drb1611
April 24, 2011, 12:00 AM
Agree with previous posts - open carry gets unwanted attention from fellow civilians and law enforcement. For non-LEOs, carrying a gun should be for one reason - to defend against an attacker in a potentially lethal situation, not to advertise you have a gun. IMO, it should only be carried concealed. I have never seen someone open carry; and suspect that if I did, at least in a business establishment, the owner/manager would ask the person to leave.

ClydeFrog
April 24, 2011, 12:56 AM
At this time, my state does not allow concealed license holders to "open carry" but that may soon change. :)

As for regular carry of a firearm, I'd prefer to keep my handgun(s) concealed in the public. I like the concept of discreet carry & being able to draw on a violent or armed felon if I need it.
Most criminals like "easy marks" or places where they won't face a serious threat. Open carry may discourage criminals but I like the element of surprise. The more you can distort or unbalance a violent subject, the better.
Weapon retention & being able to prevent any kind of snatch/theft are important too but those are training/equipment concerns.

ClydeFrog

LouCap
April 24, 2011, 01:20 AM
Agree with previous posts - open carry gets unwanted attention from fellow civilians and law enforcement. For non-LEOs, carrying a gun should be for one reason - to defend against an attacker in a potentially lethal situation, not to advertise you have a gun. IMO, it should only be carried concealed. I have never seen someone open carry; and suspect that if I did, at least in a business establishment, the owner/manager would ask the person to leave.

Very well said.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

denfoote
April 24, 2011, 03:59 AM
Ex con LA gangpunks live downstairs. I don't want them knowing. ;)

Wildalaska
April 24, 2011, 04:03 AM
Alaska is an anyhting goes state. 99% of folks conceal in the city. the other 1% who walk around open carrying on city streets are probably dysfunctional

WildandilookaskanceatthemAlaska ™©2002-2011

YZR
April 24, 2011, 06:02 AM
Michigan is an OC state but I conceal 99.999% of the time 'cuz it's none of their business that I'm carrying, plus I just don't want the hassle.
Having said that I have OC'd a couple of times just to see what it's like. It's nice to have the option though!

Kreyzhorse
April 24, 2011, 06:49 AM
WA is an open carry state. There are a number of reasons that people still carry concealed here.

1) Element of surprise. Although open provides the element of deterrance.
2) Some places do not allow firearms. What they don't know might just save their life.
3) Firearms make some people uncomfortable. Even when holstered.
4) Avoid problems with law enforcement. You get stopped even in open carry states.

+1. Kentucky is open carry as well and points 3 and 4 are equally true here. Generally if you open carry, legal or not, you will hassled. With that said, I prefer to be part of the back ground and not draw attention.

Daryl
April 24, 2011, 06:51 AM
I live in Az, and have all of my life. I can attest to the OP's statement that nobody really cares if I open carry here...mostly.

But there are a few places/people that might. I open carry for the most part, but will often stick a leather western vest on as a cover garment when I go into a bank or some such. Wally-mart greeters are somewhat known to freak out at the sight of a gun, so I wear a vest, or simply conceal a smaller gun in such places.

Yeah, I've heard all the "shoot me first vest" comments, but when you've open carried as much as I have, you learn to take such things as the nonsense that they are. A leather vest goes well with the western attire I normally wear, and if folks don't mind open carry, they sure aren't going to notice a vest.

;)

Daryl

10Ringmagic
April 24, 2011, 07:15 AM
Michigan is an OC state but I conceal 99.999% of the time 'cuz it's none of their business that I'm carrying, plus I just don't want the hassle.
Having said that I have OC'd a couple of times just to see what it's like. It's nice to have the option though!
It is legal YZR, but where I live in northern MI, it would create quite an uproar. I CCW 100% of the time.

smince
April 24, 2011, 07:40 AM
My thoughts on open carry:

I don't need to be seen with a gun to be non-selected by a BG. Attitude and how you carry yourself goes a longer way toward not having to use a gun than OC. In my AO, in my experience, concealed carry is a better tactic than OC. For myself. YMMV.

Really, I don't see the need to have a gun hanging off my belt for the whole world to see anymore. There is a reason I don't and it has nothing to do with being hassled by the police. I don't want ANYONE to know I'm armed. Not the neighborhood gossip, not the thugs, not the everyday folks going about their business.

I would only OC if that were the only legal way to carry.

I am sure that some of the criminal element will just pick another target, but some is not all. The visible gun will not make you the bane of criminals and solve all your problems. And most people are not as tuned in as they think they are.

Weapon retention is more of an issue with open carry. If you have had at least academy-level retention classes or a comparable private class, all the better. How many OC'ers have? Now how many do you see OCing in a $5 holster from the bargain gun show table?

There are a multitude of reasons for and against open carry. If that's your thing go for it. I simply prefer not to.

Spats McGee
April 24, 2011, 08:20 AM
Why conceal in an open carry state?

1) Because I'd hate to ruin the surprise for the BGs.

2) Because it's nobody's business but my own.

3) Because I don't want the BGs to know about any valuables that I have on my person, whether it be cash or a firearm.

Daryl
April 24, 2011, 08:29 AM
I don't need to be seen with a gun to be non-selected by a BG. Attitude and how you carry yourself goes a longer way toward not having to use a gun than OC. In my AO, in my experience, concealed carry is a better tactic than OC. For myself. YMMV.



Believe it or not, my reason for open carry has absolutely nothing to do with scaring bad guys into submission. It's for comfort in the Arizona heat; plain and simple.

Even a light vest gets warm on a hot summer day in Az, and an IWB holster that causes and/or holds sweat will get shed pretty quick when temps reach 105*-120* F.

And after close to 30 years of open carry, I don't much care what the neighbors gossip about.

Daryl

MLeake
April 24, 2011, 08:43 AM
I am with most of the others. I would only go for open carry in a great outdoors (hunting/riding) setting, or a firearms related event.

That said, I am in favor of legal open carry.

Magyar
April 24, 2011, 08:50 AM
Having left one open carry state (NM) to another (AZ), my reasoning is slightly different in not carrying openly. Being old and in not so good health, gives some "young punks" an advantage if they had thoughts about strong-arming me for my piece or property. They'd have a little time to plan the attack. Being concealed gives me a slight advantage if they are not so sure if I'm carrying something they want...BTW, when I'm out and about, always in Condition Yellow-Orange...:)

trespass
April 24, 2011, 08:57 AM
no reason to spook the general population
going around like wyatt earp...no harm in
open carry for me personally, but are those
it spooks up and we ( gun people) do not need
to kick up any more dust around the issue needlessly.

Water-Man
April 24, 2011, 09:06 AM
Because there's a time to OC and a time to CC and that time is determined by the person carrying.

bigghoss
April 24, 2011, 09:14 AM
OR is an open carry state but even still half the population is liberal and a lot of people are weird about guns. I get tired of explaining myself even to people who aren't necessarily anti but don't own a gun or see a need. even camping in the woods people think I'm weird and look at me like I have goat horns, people I actually know. that gets really old. plus the whole element of surprise. it might serve as a deterrent but more likely you'll just make yourself a target.

MLeake
April 24, 2011, 09:20 AM
I do have a counter-point as far as "not spooking the general population."

When and where I grew up, most every pickup had a shotgun rack. During the appropriate seasons, those racks held shotguns or rifles. It was not unusual to see people walking around with shotguns or rifles, en route to a field. Nobody blinked.

Point I'm getting at is that conditioning is a real factor to consider. If the only times people see openly carried weapons, those weapons are being carried by cops or crooks, then people get conditioned to think of weapons as only being carried by cops or crooks.

So there is a decent chance that if people were more exposed to open carry by responsible people, it could condition them to spook a lot less, instead of a lot more.

I suspect that would require fairly discreet methods of open carry, by very polite and mild-mannered people. Loudmouths strutting around in their Cold, Dead Hands shirts and carrying Tacticool gear would probably have the wrong impact. I'm in favor of those guys having the right to do so, anyway, but hope they will realize it would not be good for our side for them to do that.

But I do think there's something to be said for discreet open carry by the right folks as a psychological conditioning agent.

OTOH, I like the tactical advantage of the BGs not knowing I'm armed.

My problem is, I get asked, "Are you a cop? Because you look like one," on a kind of regular basis, so I think those sorts may assume I'm packing anyway.

Webleymkv
April 24, 2011, 10:26 AM
Indiana is an OC state and while I'm glad it is legal and support those who choose to OC, it just not my cup of tea personally. You see, while OC is legal in IN, it's not particularly common and usually generates a few raised eyebrows at the least. I don't particularly like unneccessary attention and try to live my life in a way that avoids it. OC simply draws more attention than I want so I choose to carry concealed. Perhaps if I lived in a state where OC was more common, like AZ, and didn't draw so much attention I might feel differently.

Dragon55
April 24, 2011, 10:42 AM
I never see anyone doing it. I know a lot folks who CC... including me. I think it's just that folks here in East TN don't like to be asked a bunch of questions and would rather just fly under the radar.

Deja vu
April 24, 2011, 11:13 AM
Idaho is open carry but you do get harnessed by the local collage students and once in a while the police when you open carry.

irish52084
April 24, 2011, 11:34 AM
I live in an open carry state, Washington, and it's rare that people even notice my gun when I OC. I carry both OC and CC and they both have their place, but OC is more comfortable.

The only responses I've had to my OC is a couple double takes when in line at the grocery store. No one has tried to steal my gun, made negative comments or asked me to leave their store or home. I have sat in Starbucks with 20 or so OC'ers, all carrying, and I watched every customer I could who walked through the doors. I'd guess that maybe 1 in 3 customers even noticed there were 20+openly armed people in the room with them. None of the customers ran away scared or acted scared, the police didn't come by and threaten us and nobody had their gun stolen.

As for the tactical advantage of CC over OC, I call BS. At best you're trading one tactical advantage for another. I know for myself that drawing my weapon from a concealed position is more difficult, slower and much easier to screw up than drawing from an open carry situation. I have nothing against CC, but I'm still waiting to see a true story of an OC'er being "gun snatched" or outright targeted because he/she had an openly carried gun.

smince
April 24, 2011, 02:23 PM
I know for myself that drawing my weapon from a concealed position is more difficult, slower and much easier to screw up than drawing from an open carry situation.And I know very many who can draw from concealment faster than most open carriers.

Practice Practice Practice.

egor20
April 24, 2011, 02:43 PM
I have nothing against CC, but I'm still waiting to see a true story of an OC'er being "gun snatched" or outright targeted because he/she had an openly carried gun.


Man robbed of gun, money while sitting in car
A Manassas man was robbed of a handgun and money Saturday night, police said.

The 26-year-old victim was seated in his car in the 9700 block of Liberia Avenue, near the Parkhust Plaza and Evergreen Terrace shopping centers in Manassas, around 10:30 p.m. when someone he knew opened the driver’s side door and held him at knifepoint, Prince William police spokesman Jonathan Perok said.

The knife was put up to the victim’s neck while a second unknown man took the items, Perok said.

Police said the victim was not hurt in the incident.
http://www2.insidenova.com/news/2011/apr/19/man-hit-behind-woodbridge-ar-983383/



The detective who is investigating the case has a daughter who boards her horse with me. The victim OCed, and his "friends" knew he did.

Tom Servo
April 24, 2011, 03:05 PM
Because I got over that whole "needing to be at the center of attention" thing at an early age.

9mm
April 24, 2011, 03:07 PM
when someone he knew opened the driver’s side door



Thus he was robbed by someone he KNEW, not some stranger, so I do not count this case.

And he OPENED the door, meaning I guess, it was unlocked. This is why you LOCK your doors.

chasep255
April 24, 2011, 03:09 PM
Let me just start of by saying that I have never carried before. But if I were to I would think that I would not want to open carry in some places. I would just feel weird letting others know that you have a gun with you. Also I have heard that carrying openly makes you a target.

mrray13
April 24, 2011, 03:45 PM
Because there's a time to OC and a time to CC and that time is determined by the person carrying.


Well said Water-Man, and IMHO, the best answer.

As we all know, there are pros and cons, both tactically and otherwise, to both ways of carrying. I think that as long as it's legal to carry and you are legally able to carry, then you should carry. Be it OC or CC, I don't care.

I do wish more would OC, as previously mentioned, it would go a long way to condition other people to learn not all who carry are bad, even if they aren't cops.

bearone2
April 24, 2011, 04:48 PM
drb1611:
"Agree with previous posts - open carry gets unwanted attention from fellow civilians and law enforcement. For non-LEOs, carrying a gun should be for one reason - to defend against an attacker in a potentially lethal situation, not to advertise you have a gun. IMO, it should only be carried concealed. I have never seen someone open carry; and suspect that if I did, at least in a business establishment, the owner/manager would ask the person to leave."

why would they be asked to leave?

oc, never seen it, you should get out more.

chris in va
April 24, 2011, 04:50 PM
I'd love to open carry all the time but really don't care for any attention, positive or negative. I fully support anyone that chooses to do it though, and I've certainly done it myself quite a few times.

IMTHDUKE
April 24, 2011, 05:41 PM
Sweet Home Alabama is an open carry state, however, my local sheriff tells me that their local laws will trump State law everytime and they will stop anyone open carrying. I don't have time for the hassel.

irish52084
April 24, 2011, 06:09 PM
egor20: There is nothing in your link that states the man was OC. If hearsay from a detectives daughter is all you have, then I'm not sold. Maybe he was OC, but I see no clear evidence or proof that he was.

I'm open to the fact that it could happen and maybe it has, but I haven't yet seen a clear cut instance of a legal OC'er being gun grabbed. I think there is a challeng if someone can prove that a legit OC gun grab has occurred. I believe the guidelines are pretty clear. Here is a link to a discussion about it, look at post #19 for some details:http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?86904-Should-my-partner-OC

zxcvbob
April 24, 2011, 06:13 PM
CC gives you a tactical advantage. :cool:
OC gives you a strategic advantage. :D

Do whichever you think is appropriate for the circumstances, and rock-on.

irish52084
April 24, 2011, 06:14 PM
smince: The fact that someone can draw faster than me from a concealed position VS an open one is pretty pointless. If that same person, who is faster than me drawing from OC, were to devote the same amount of time to drawing from OC as CC they would be even faster than they were from concealed.

Skadoosh
April 24, 2011, 06:18 PM
Man open carrying was robbed of his gun: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

Yet nother incident of a man who was open carrying being robbed of his gun: http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

In BOTH cases the person who was open carrying was targeted because they were open carrying. Concealed carry would have LIKELY prevented these incidents from occurring.

MLeake
April 24, 2011, 06:28 PM
If you are down to fast-draw, you've already screwed up. It will be hard to dig out from the hole the momentary loss of situational awareness dropped you into.

Not meant as a slam, either. We all have those momentary losses of SA, condition orange be damned.

But in any of those cases where you have any inkling that something is going down, draw speed should not be a factor; the weapon should be in a concealed-ready state, unless you need to fire right then and there, or need to attempt to immediately deter the BG prior to firing.

Now, if I'm worried about something like bears, then the fast-draw becomes more of a valid issue, because quite frankly in most of the accounts I've read of bear attacks, the victim did not see it coming. This goes back to my own tendency to only OC when out in the great outdoors; even then, I typically CC, because I'm not normally in places where bears are a major concern. (Although we did seem to have had one in the barn a couple years ago....)

irish52084
April 24, 2011, 07:48 PM
Skadoosh: Not sure if you're are interested in the challenge I linked to or not, but if so, I don't the links you provided match the criteria. They were both robberies and not gun grabs.

OC may have made them a target for robbery, because guns are valuable, but so does a nice watch. Nice homes are targeted for the same reason, they have things of value inside.

A CC gun prevents no crime. Drawing or showing a firearm has stopped many crimes without a shot fired. I tend to view OC as letting someone know I'm a hard target, if they even notice I'm armed. It's the gun and the presenting of it that sends a message of deterrence. An openly carried gun sends that message in the open, where CC requires you to draw and present the deterrent. If you have to perform several actions to deter VS a visible deterrent, which is more effective the majority of the time?

I'm not saying that everyone should OC, just saying that by my logic it's a better option in the majority of circumstances. I OC and CC, my personal experiences have made me realize that CC is just more work for less return.

I'd rather have my gun ready and easily available to me in a greater range of circumstances, so OC is better for me. I have a young son and often have to carry him in one arm, making some CC draws very difficult. I carry strong side for both CC and OC, but I can tell you from training, OC draw one handed is much easier. I will be damned if I'm going to take any advantage away from myself in a defensive situation that likely will have me at a disadvantage already.

I carry for defense, if I'm drawing my pistol I probably have nowhere else to go and my life or my family's is in danger. I need to be on that gun in the most efficient way possible and I need to run it hard, fast and accurately in a bad situation. If I have to push my coat out of the way, pull up my shirt or whatever else to draw, it's one more complication to an already stressful and deadly situation.

I won't let peoples fear of a weapon or their view of me carrying it legally compromise my safety or my family's. Let them gawk and think: "Oh my god, that guy has the audacity to carry a gun here!" I'm protecting me and my family, not the haters feelings.

Dashunde
April 24, 2011, 08:22 PM
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.

Open carry is a deterrent - your not a cop, your not there to deter, by carrying open you paint the same target on your back that a cop has... only your back isnt protected by a vest, nor partner.

I'll get to the point of it all - If I were a badguy and intent on committing a crime against or around an OC'r, you can be certain that the OC'r will be my very first target and they will not see it coming.

Naby
April 24, 2011, 08:49 PM
Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations. I support it because in limited circumstances, such as stopping by a convenience store while on the way to or from the woods or the lake, I would be nice not to have to remove a gun. I guess it would also be nice to know I have the option but that is the libertarian in me.

I agree that it is a deterrence but it also makes you the likely first target. That being said I could see the deterrence factor being useful after a hurricane or other disaster.

MLeake
April 24, 2011, 08:56 PM
It's a mixed bag, but IMO it should be legal.

Dashunde
April 24, 2011, 08:57 PM
Legal? Yes.
Smart? No.

orionengnr
April 24, 2011, 08:58 PM
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.
That is a conclusion. I'm not going to say that it is illogical, but I have seen no evidence to support it.

I live in a state where OC is not currently authorized, and I strongly believe that should be changed. I'm not saying I would OC, as I would not do so regularly, but I would support the rights of others who would.

And there is something to be said for the statement "Those who do not exercise their rights soon lose them". I firmly believe that average citizens seeing fellow law-abiding citizens carrying, every day, with no ensuing mayhem, would be a positive influence in the day-to-day lives of Mr. and Mrs. Average Citizen. Might take a while, might take a few MWAG calls, but I believe it would be a net positive.

Please note that this is a conclusion as well, and I might be wrong...but I don't think so. :)

C0untZer0
April 24, 2011, 09:13 PM
This has been a really good thread and I appreciate the opinions and the links.

This is just my opinion, but if I were a police officer I would rather my state had OC than CC. The statistics show that most people who carry are law abiding citizens. Of course bad guys are not going to obey laws and I think it improbable that they would carry openly although they've done dumber things in the past. But if I were police officer I'd rather know who was armed than not know (excluding the bad guys). Maybe there's a hole in that logic - if there is I'm sure someone will point it out.

Just from my own perspective I'd rather a state has both. I think the best thing I've heard so far is that there is a time for OC and a time for CC.

When we were having breakfast outside of Ft Huachuca in AZ and two guys walked in wearing pistols on their hips no one gawked. I mean I noticed it mainly because their right hips were facign toward me as they walked by, but there was no fuss from anyone in the restaurant. There were probably other people in their carrying but I didn't notice them.

One of the things that the Open Carry movement talks about is perceptions are different in different parts of the country and if people in a particular area have negative perceptions about guns they react negatively. At least in that neck of the woods in AZ, it was no big deal.

irish52084
April 24, 2011, 09:21 PM
The police have no duty to protect or deter crime, they investigate and attempt to prevent crime through deterrence. The supreme court of the united states or SCOTUS has ruled as such.

I am a part of a community and therefore responsible, in part, for it's condition and safety. I am responsible for the security of myself and my property. Part of that security is deterrence, also known as a gun.

Likewise, if I were a criminal and wished to target an armed person or persons I would use surprise as well. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of criminals want a soft target and the presence of a gun has been stated as a reason to avoid that target. Think of it this way: If 50% of criminals who wanted to rob me wouldn't do so because I had a gun, that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it. If my OC firearm prevents half the robbery attempts on me, then it works better than a CC gun which the full 100% of criminals didn't know was present. A CC gun prevents no crime or attempted crimes until it is drawn or shown. An OC gun presents itself immediately and says this wallet isn't worth the potential loss of your criminal life. The other 50% of criminals didn't care about the gun, so it doesn't matter in those instances.

If a criminal is planning to the point of specifically eliminating me because he views me as a threat, then he's going to have done some research on me and I must have something he really wants. At that point there isn't anything I could do to prevent it from happening.

We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not. I'll take the deterrent that is obvious, because it does encourage the criminal to pick another target. Kind of like a big intimidating dog helps deter home burglary, because nobody wants to get bit or have the dog wake up an armed home owner who then presents a lethal threat.

Tom Servo
April 24, 2011, 09:27 PM
Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations.
I concur. Right now, Florida law requires absolute concealment. If the wind blows back my shirt and my weapon is exposed, I could be in for trouble. The open carry law allows one to be a little less paranoid about that.

In Georgia, I have the luxury of being pretty sloppy about concealment. The average person is unlikely to notice my weapon, but someone who's been around guns might. Here, it's not a problem.

Now, do I want to advertise that I'm armed? No. Nobody needs to know I'm armed. It's a weapon. It's there for one purpose, and that's a pretty grim one. It shouldn't be in play unless I'm trying to stop something truly dreadful from happening.

For me, the whole idea of carrying a weapon revolves around reducing risk. In reality, what are the odds that I'll actually need it? Pretty darn small. Still, I carry it, just in case.

If we take the idea of risk abatement to its conclusion, it makes no sense for me to add an element of risk back into the equation. To me, carrying an exposed weapon does just that. Your mileage may vary.

What I can tell you is that most of the die-hard open carry types I've met carry in substandard rigs, have little or no training in weapons retention, and really don't seem to take the idea of the gun as a weapon very seriously. Treat it as anything but a weapon, and we're asking for trouble.

Before someone comes along to claim that I don't support their rights (and they will), I would never support a law restricting or banning the practice. I just wish those who do it would do so a bit more responsibly.

Nitesites
April 24, 2011, 09:32 PM
Why conceal in a open carry state?

Because I am polite. I believe in discretion. I have no reason to open carry. I do not wish to cause others discomfort "just because I can".

The accepted norm varies between regions. In some areas, open carry is simply a way of life while in others, it is so infrequently seen that when witnessed, it may cause panic. I dislike panic.

C0untZer0
April 24, 2011, 09:34 PM
I think this story is interesting in a couple of ways:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

First of all I think this guy lived in a high crime area.

I think carrying a gun openly in that situation is similar to wearing a rolex or waving a gold Krugerrand around.

It seems like residents in the area perceived that he was issuing some sort of challenge to others by carrying openly like "Don't mess with me" (According to "Shambria").

And I also think that these guys probably set an ambush for this gun owner. And it may have been to show him up, a feather in their cap, or maybe it was just the for the money or both.

But I do think that this is a good example of a time when it's not wise to carry openly. In this particular situation if you're going to carry openly you'd better have eyes in the back of your head.

Definately food for thought.

Wildalaska
April 24, 2011, 09:35 PM
We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not

LOL...as a concealed carrier, I see some civvie OCing in an urban area, my hinkymeter goes up and I split (or get mentally ready to shoot him). Thats deterrence I reckon.

Rambo is already hovering around some of the responses here. You want to protect your community, get involved, not just parade around with your gun dangling


WildiwishtherewasawomenshootersboardandtheywouldletmejoindespitetheinherentflawsofmygenderAlaska ™©2002-2011

MLeake
April 24, 2011, 09:40 PM
Please note the link that C0untZer0 posted occurred in Wisconsin, where open carry is legal but concealed carry is not (or did that just change?)

Kind of changes the paradigm a bit.

ClydeFrog
April 24, 2011, 09:59 PM
I read a few new posts and wanted to post a response.

Thefts, armed robbery or other incidents can occur too with open carry.

About 4 years ago, there was a media report of a armed, uniformed security officer working in a "bad area" of my city.
The apt complex guard was attacked by 2 armed subjects who took the officer's sidearm, badge, impact weapon, chemical agent etc.
The whole event started with men asking the security guard for directions. :(

I also agree that states or elected officals should pass pro-gun/2A laws to allow full open carry by CWP or concealed weapon license holders in times of state or federal declared emergencies. Something like Katrina(2005) or Andrew(1992).

Dashunde
April 24, 2011, 10:13 PM
..that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it...

Your percentages are all skewed and represent a unrealistic, virtually nonexistent, number of people (2) who would attack any one of us.
Using 50% would require at least two, but you could live 50 lifetimes and have zero.
Your giving up the element of surprise that would be a big advantage in dealing with a intelligent or fearless criminal so that you can deter the opportunistic variety who may run away if you reach/present after being confronted - which is the same result as oc, thus making the argument of oc being a deterrent a moot point.

If your ever attacked you will get who you get.
Perhaps you will get your two and they'll distract, disarm, and shoot you with your own gun... when they might have just walked on past you instead.

It takes only one with motivation and clarity of thought and your done.
I say its great to have the right, but be smart and play your cards close.

WhiskeyTango
April 24, 2011, 10:33 PM
I didn't even bother to read more than a few posts in this thread, because my answer would be the same. I don't personally agree with any of the "center of attention" or "being polite to others" or the "you don't want to advertise your armed" stuff. It's fine if you think that way, to each his own, but I open carry all the time even though I have a CWP. I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares. I believe if more gun owners open carried and were not afraid to practice their God given right, it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails. Granted it might cause some type of uproar in the beginning, but over time I think it would help our fight immensely. If just 20% of gun owners started to open carry, I bet within 6 months things would start to change, people would see that guns don't jump out of their holsters and kill people, and that gun owners aren't looking for any trouble, and that trouble won't go looking for them. Heck we might even make believers out of some of the brady bunch crowd. My point is, is that carrying in the open (or concealed for that matter) is a god given right, and I'm sick and tired of these brady bunchers dictating whether or not I can practice that right. Ok, rant over.

That all being said, I was shopping in a Home Depot a few years back and an employee saw me pushing a cart full of lumber, I got ready to ask him where something was and he saw my gun on my hip. The kid freaked out and started screaming "OMG, he has a gun!" The cops got called, I just went on about my business like nothing happened. The cops got there and I put my hands on my head and dropped to my knees without being told to do so, after they took my weapon from me the sat me down and ask what I was doing, I told them I was building a work bench and trying to shop for materials when Suzy started screaming. After about 10 min of me explaining myself they gave me back my gun, told the kid I had every right to carry it, and left. The manager was standing right there by now, and I told him that little Suzy's out burst just cost him a $500 sale, and left with out buying anything.

On the other side of the fence, A friend of mine was shopping at walmart one day and was reaching to the top shelf to get something. His jacket and shirt rose up above his waist and his gun was exposed. Someone saw it and freaked out. Started screaming, cops got called, he was questioned, given his gun back, and went about his business.

The moral of the story is stuff like this happens all the time, it doesn't matter if you carry in the open, or concealed, until people are used to Americans exercising their God given rights it will continue to happen.

ClydeFrog
April 24, 2011, 10:40 PM
Years ago, as a lower enlisted MP, I got a LE only book about officer safety & "street survival". In the text book was a b/w photo taken from a state corrections dept of 2 inmates practicing weapon/sidearm snatches.
I'm not sure if that photo or related material are available to the general public or with an open source but that is something to consider when you carry a loaded firearm either open or concealed.

CF

Dashunde
April 24, 2011, 11:54 PM
I believe ... it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails.
Romanticized nonsense... that would fuel their fight because few of us, even most ccw'rs, want to see people walking around with guns dangling.
It's just not polite to the eye, especially to a anti's eye, and if you stuff it in their face they will react poorly, like always.
Your not going to teach them anything by OC'ing.

What other environments have we seen lately that depicted the general population openly carrying firearms?
The likely answer is a third-world hole that none of us want to live in.

I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares

That attitude is much more of a liablity than it is anything else.

Ringolevio
April 25, 2011, 12:21 AM
I'm gettin' kinda depressed reading this thread. It's because I'm seeing so many rationalizations for open carry, along with so few who realize that concealed carry is a deterrent even when no one chooses to exercise it, because the criminals have no way to tell who is armed and who is not.

Someone claimed that open carry deters crime the same way a big, mean dog deters burglary. 'Sorry, but it's not that simple. The dog deters amateurs. A determined professional will arrive at your house with a plan (and the means) to quickly neutralize your dog.

Similarly, OC deters only amateurs. A serious criminal who wants your gun already has a tactical advantage because you have voluntarily relinquished the elements of uncertainty and surprise.

Maybe the problem is that the OC advocates, bless their hearts, are idealists. They want us to be like the Old West, which was actually quite peaceful and orderly (and not at all like in the movies!) precisely because everyone was armed and competent with firearms. It was proof that "An armed society is a polite society" (Ideally, I wish we'd all carry rifles all the time, and be the "Nation of Riflemen" we were once known as).

But in today's world, with criminals more hardened and more organized than ever and the majority of citizens not "comfortable" with guns, that idealism runs into the reality that OC is really not a very prudent way of going armed. It's just better to keep the bad guys guessing.

Once again, all the talk about faster draws and the supposed deterrent value of a visible gun are just rationalizations for guys who like to show off, for one reason or another, that they're packing heat.

TenRing
April 25, 2011, 01:16 AM
I read this thread and I was going to stay out of it until I read Ringolevio's post. He basically summed up how I feel about this issue.

Crime is so bad now that the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your car, your money, your gun or any other valuable property. When we are out and about, my wife turns her wedding ring around so the stone is into her palm. I remove my wallet from my back pocket and carry it out of sight in a front pants pocket or in a jacket pocket with a zipper.

The absolute last thing I would want to do is advertise to muggers that I'm carrying a gun and where on my person I am carrying it. Today's criminals are irrational, likely doped up and they usually work in teams of two or three.

The muggers and carjackers are not as afraid of your gun as some may think. They might see this as a challenge to bum rush the armed citizen and take his gun. The less they know about me and what I have on me, the better. Two of our best weapons are our brain and the element of surprise. The gun comes in third.

zxcvbob
April 25, 2011, 09:12 AM
Romanticized nonsense... that would fuel their fight because few of us, even most ccw'rs, want to see people walking around with guns dangling.
It's just not polite to the eye, especially to a anti's eye, and if you stuff it in their face they will react poorly, like always.It's a gun, not a penis. You seem to be confused. :rolleyes: (what's that line from "Zardoz"?)

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 11:43 AM
^Ah right... I'm the one who's confused. Good thing your clear thinking was there to set me straight.
At least we know whats on your mind... lol

irish52084
April 25, 2011, 11:43 AM
Where I'm from, OC was almost unheard of 5 years ago. Some people began meeting up and discussing OC at Starbucks and the anti's had a hissy fit. The OC group still had their meetings and the anti's protested one at a Starbucks. Starbucks came out and said if the OCers were doing nothing illegal they would continue to serve them. Strangely enough, I don't think the anti's ever came back to protest again.

Since that incident made local news, OC has grown exponentially here. The police have become more educated on OC and preemption laws have removed some of the no guns allowed signs in our parks and other areas. Every once in a while a situation occurs with an officer who doesn't know the law and they hassle someone OC. Those situations are handled and usually end up with that officer and the department undertaking new training on the laws that pertain to OC and CC.

As OC has become more common here and people become a little more educated they become less fearful. The fear of guns and gun carriers comes from a lack of knowledge, we fear what we do not know. The more educated we make people, the less of an issue it is. It's funny how people get outraged when your gun is visible, but put a t-shirt over it and everything is fine. It's the same gun one way or another and just as deadly whether they see it or not.

You can only ever deter amateur criminals. If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based. They aren't scoping you out for weeks. They see you walking down the street and an opportunity to make a few dollars. You can't prevent the hell bent criminals. They will commit their crimes regardless of deterrents.

zxcvbob
April 25, 2011, 11:51 AM
You can only ever deter amateur criminals. If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based. They aren't scoping you out for weeks. They see you walking down the street and an opportunity to make a few dollars. You can't prevent the hell bent criminals. They will commit their crimes regardless of deterrents.And wearing a gun openly will get their attention. So you deter most criminals, and at the same time attract the really determined ones who otherwise might not notice you. (just laying it out there, not making a judgement either way)

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 11:54 AM
As noted earlier, I see open carry as more of an advantage against animals than against BG's.

One other thing, going back to theoretical draw speed: If you are concerned with CC being too slow, go try out an IDPA match sometime. Most of the courses of fire require a cover garment, and realistic CC holsters and ammo holders.

Saw one guy last weekend draw, double-tap two targets, move to the other side of a barrier, double-tap three more targets, in 9 seconds.

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 12:09 PM
If truly intelligent, motivated criminals want something you have, your firearms, OC or CC, won't change a thing. The fact remains, that most robberies of citizens on the street are more or less opportunity based.

OC vs CC changes everything - Perhaps your gun is what they will want - and now you've provided opportunity.
OC'ing unnecessarily paints a target on your back for many reasons, plain and simple.

Some seem to keep thinking that they are spooking away many would-be attackers, when in reality your odds of being attacked in the first place are very very small.

Honestly, I think the OC thing is mostly bravdo rooster struting blizblaz that provides miniscule advantages while giving up all of the substancial advantages of CC.

Longdayjake
April 25, 2011, 12:10 PM
I don't like to reveal my hand before I place my bets.

MrWesson
April 25, 2011, 12:15 PM
The real debate is whether open carry can

Educate the sheeple/get them accustomed to guns.
or
Scare the sheeple and get them to support legislation against it.

I honestly don't know the answer or if a right one exists.

JerryM
April 25, 2011, 12:29 PM
Although NM is an open carry state, I prefer not to for many of the reasons already stated.

However, there is another reason. The laws are more restrictive regarding carrying in a place that sells alcohol. You cannot legally OC into
Walmarts or a Quick Stop gas station and go inside when OC. You can while CC. OC is prohibited in any place that sells alcohol, and it does not have to be sold for consumption on the premise.

Regards,
Jerry

Ringolevio
April 25, 2011, 12:32 PM
MLeake wrote:
As noted earlier, I see open carry as more of an advantage against animals than against BG's.

I can see that. I spend a lot of time in the woods with my dog (not hunting, just walking). OC would be a convenience, but I still conceal.

BTW, if you're out in bear country, there are very few of the common "manstopper" handguns (other than the .357 or .44 magnums) that are going to do you much good. You'd be better off toting nothing less than a .30-06!

In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.

But I still think the question should be "Why carry openly in a concealed carry state?"

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 12:36 PM
irish52084 wrote:
.......I have sat in Starbucks with 20 or so OC'ers, all carrying, and I watched every customer I could who walked through the doors. I'd guess that maybe 1 in 3 customers even noticed there were 20+openly armed people in the room with them. None of the customers ran away scared or acted scared, the police didn't come by and threaten us and nobody had their gun stolen.

Eastern or Western??.

As a fellow Washingtonian my money is on Eastern. Or, if Western, you are on the Olympic peninsula or another seriously rural area. I would not like my chances of not being harassed for OC in any area of King county, 90% of Snohomish, Pierce, Thurston and the eastern half of Kitsap county and the Western half of Whatcom county.

The only time I OC in WA is when camping in Okanogan county. And during the drive there from my home in Snohomish county.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 12:42 PM
Ringolevio, my woods guns are .44 Magnum (S&W Mountain Gun 4" for hiking, S&W 629-3 6" for hunting) or 10mm (Fusion longslide 6" 1911, also for hunting).

Those are pretty much my only OC's, although sometimes I CC the Mountain Gun. The others are too long for easy concealment.

As good as a .30-06? No, but much more portable.

Tom Servo
April 25, 2011, 01:01 PM
In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.
True, but in my experience, some of them bear watching from a safety standpoint.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 01:02 PM
Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 01:41 PM
Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.

Assumes that the person seeing you can be convinced by examples. You can never permit yourself to forget the stupidity of the average person. My non-scientific estimate is that less than 1 in 3 people have anything functioning in their head except their lizard brain. This allows them to walk around, smell, taste, feel simple emotions like anger and fear but not much else. Such a person is impervious to learning by anything short of aversion therapy.

Showing people what they have learned to fear doesn't convince anyone of anything. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think widespread open carry is it.

TENFAN
April 25, 2011, 01:55 PM
Many reasons to go concealed like not letting the badguys know who to take out first. Also possible target for future thefts.

threegun
April 25, 2011, 01:59 PM
Saw one guy last weekend draw, double-tap two targets, move to the other side of a barrier, double-tap three more targets, in 9 seconds.

At one time I had a draw speed of less than 1/2 second with the snap applied. I have nothing even close with concealed carry. Time to initial presentation is much slower. Speed of splits is of secondary importance IMO to initial presentation.

I call time to initial presentation, time to duress. Duress kicks in once my gun threatens the bad guy. It compromises his ability to hit me and make good decisions.

Nowadays I mostly carry in a fanny pack. This is hyper slow. I must rely on Situational Awareness.

irish52084
April 25, 2011, 02:46 PM
lawnboy:
The Starbucks meet up I posted about was in Lakewood, which is in Pierce county. Groups meet regularly in just about all areas of Washington. I know there is a meet in King county that has been ongoing for quite a while. The Lakewood meet up has only been going on regularly scheduled for about 6 months.

Honestly guys, very few people even notice an openly carried gun. Gun people notice most often, but even then they have to be looking for it. It's surprising how oblivious people are about it.

I personally OC for many reasons: Deterrent, ease of draw , comfort and largely to promote 2nd amendment rights. If you want to see many other peoples reasons for OC, check out opencarry.org. There's lots of people all over the country who are normal, safe, polite OCers. They are not after any special attention. Everybody whom I met at meets have been the normal average people, law abiding and nobody ran around screaming check out my gun it's got pearl grips and fancy gold accents.

Some states don't have an option to carry concealed and OC is their only option. In my state, if you're 18-20 years old you can't carry concealed. What are those people supposed to do? They have 1 option, and it's OC. Should they not protect themselves, because some people believe CC is better?

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 03:04 PM
Irish,
Interesting. I had no idea that those meetings existed.

Ought to have one at about 96th and Pacific Ave in Tacoma. Or up in Fremont during one of the street fairs. Reaction might be very different.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into finding one.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 03:06 PM
lawnboy, don't you find it interesting that open carry could create a panic in Fremont? Might scare the troll and the nude bicycle parade...

threegun
April 25, 2011, 03:06 PM
Why conceal?

There are pluses and minuses with both forms of carry.

Open carry
Pluses......... speed, deterrence, easier to carry a larger platform.

Minuses....... no surprise, if an attack happens it will likely be more violent.

Concealed Carry
Pluses..........surprise

Minuses........slower draw, limited size (usually), no deterrent factor.

sonick808
April 25, 2011, 03:10 PM
I don't carry open because I don't want the gun to be a catalyst for an event that otherwise would not have occured. It's an unnecessary metric. Less is better. Much like some people like to challenge the biggest guy in the room, some people will challenge you to shoot them, etc. I don't need that in my life.

however

I do respect the people that have the street smarts, constitution and mindset to carry open and do it properly.

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 03:22 PM
lawnboy, don't you find it interesting that open carry could create a panic in Fremont? Might scare the troll and the nude bicycle parade...

I don't know man, the troll looks like he can take care of himself. No weapons needed! The parade is a different matter......

Which kinda helps me get a point across. When I see the local news coverage of the nude bicycle parade, or hemp-fest, or pro-affirmative action protestors, or anti-cop protestors or whatever I don't feel more sympathetic to those things. I still think they are, in corresponding order: humorously silly, silly, misguided and evil.

I think the effect of Open Carry (even if it is legal) in an anti-gun hotbed is to harden the resolve of the anti-gun types. Not convince them. The same way I'm convinced to stay away from the nude bicycle parade.

I get exercising your rights. I'm just not sure seeing reasonable, calm, upstanding citizens comfortable with firearms is going to convince the reflexive anti's. But I'm going to try to find and attend one of those OC get-togethers anyway. At least once so I can say I did.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 25, 2011, 03:35 PM
This is legal in San Antonio. You can wear only enough to cover your genitals and anus. In TX you can walk around with a long arm.

So, it is time for the school bus to come down your street. You see a gentleman walking down the street (he is wearing a flesh colored thong *), seeming naked. He is sporting an AR.

Do you go congratulate him for exercising his civil rights on clothes and guns - or do you go - Holy Moly - call the law and get your AR for the children.

Are you a sheeple?


* There was a guy who rode a bike like this up and down the fancy neighborhood for fun and to shock the matrons.

WhiskeyTango
April 25, 2011, 03:45 PM
I guess I'm being difficult, I guess I like to stir up the pot. Some of you might look at me as a liability, but I guaranty you no criminal would ever get my sidearm away from me, unless he was a former Army Ranger or the like. When I make the decision to OC I make it with confidence in my training. You can't be afraid to make the brady bunchers mad, and you can't go around being "polite" to the people who are trying to take away your rights. That's how our rights got taken away in the first place. I may have been idealistic in joining this forum, I may have convinced myself that we were all on the same page, I see now that that was a foolish assumption. But it's OK, we might not be on the same page or have the same views, but we're still gun owners, and that means we're on the same team right?

Nitesites
April 25, 2011, 04:06 PM
I'd say we are.

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 04:22 PM
Antagonizing the enemy is only a sound practice when you are trying to draw him out so that you can defeat him. Antagonizing your enemy for any other reason is pointless and counterproductive.

If you think there is something to be gained by antagonizing anti's with Open Carry I'd like to hear your point of view. I don't think there is anything to be gained. This isn't to say you shouldn't Open Carry. Only you can judge what is acceptable in your neck of the woods. In mine I'm confident it would draw unwanted attention.

Legal and right are often different things. It's legal to wear a flesh colored thong and carry a rifle in Texas. In the situation described it's not right, in my opinon. I don't know what my reaction would be. I suspect it would be to wish I had something besides a 9mm handgun, just in case. Because someone riding a bike while practically naked and carrying a rifle is soft in the head. And crazy people and weapons don't mix.

If we all walked around exercising our rights to the hilt all the time the world would be a worse place than it is.

We are all on the same team. My state is Open Carry. I'm glad. I just choose not to exercise that option. Except when I feel like it. Good for those who do, but I'm not sure that the desired goal is being achieved.

And remember, the 2nd Ammendment stops the government from infringing on your rights. It doesn't stop a private citizen from badgering you and calling attention to your carrying a firearm. Too much hassle for me.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
I think people are too worried about anti's, and not worried enough about fence-sitters.

There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed, but just like in the world of R's vs D's, the extremists at either end just aren't about to go over to the other side. Fighting for them is either unnecessary or pointless, depending on which side we are discussing.

But the centrists tend to decide elections and prevailing popular sentiment.

So the question is how do you win over the fence-sitters?

I don't care all that much about hardcore anti's. They are beyond my ability to influence.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 25, 2011, 04:35 PM
No offense but if someone shoots you in parking lot, unless you are Peter Parker with spider sense, they can have your gun.

Yeah, maybe you have unsurpassed H2H abilities - but you can't stop a bullet in midair.

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 04:41 PM
I think people are too worried about anti's, and not worried enough about fence-sitters.

There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed, but just like in the world of R's vs D's, the extremists at either end just aren't about to go over to the other side. Fighting for them is either unnecessary or pointless, depending on which side we are discussing.

But the centrists tend to decide elections and prevailing popular sentiment.

So the question is how do you win over the fence-sitters?

I don't care all that much about hardcore anti's. They are beyond my ability to influence.

This is well stated. And true. My problem is telling the difference tween hardcore and malleable.

Stevie-Ray
April 25, 2011, 05:18 PM
It is legal YZR, but where I live in northern MI, it would create quite an uproar. I CCW 100% of the time. And what part of northern Michigan would that be? I open carried practically all my life while in the Upper Peninsula. I've been known to OC on my new property and the surrounding area of Iosco county. I even OC fairly frequently at my present location in Wayne county, where you won't find a population more liberal, other than maybe Ann Arbor proper. I wouldn't have thought there would be any problem with OC anywhere north of Flint, so I'd very much like to know where to stay away from when I decide to OC. Normally, I CC, but since MI has always been an OC state, it is nice to have the option, and it's great for those inadvertant revelations.

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 05:21 PM
In fairness, I have to admit that when you see someone carrying openly, you have good reason to believe he is on the right side of the law.

I'm not so sure about that - it depends on where you are:
At the Feed & Tack, Outfitters store, or a cafe on the edge of a cattle town frequented by coyotes, sure all is well.
At the WalMart, Home Depot, or Olive Garden... hell no, they're quite possibly some unhinged section-8 swaggering around like a fool thinking he's representing the rest of us and not giving a damn what anyone thinks completely content to be spooking people and silently hoping someone starts trouble with or challenges him on his poor choice.

Thing is, Tom, that's one reason I sometimes think more of us should OC - to offer examples of normal, reasonable, mild-mannered types carrying in a professional manner, in order to offset the types you've described.

That all sounds fine on the surface...
Execpt few of us are "professional" gun carriers or protectors of population and shouldnt be looking or playing the part.

...but I guaranty you no criminal would ever get my sidearm away from me, unless he was a former Army Ranger or the like.

And there we have it folks... over-confidence in its purest form.
No ninja's are required to sneak up from behind and bury a 6" boot spike at the base of your skull... a weak crackhead could pull it off easily, and could likely end you before you hit the ground using a small Chinese claw hammer bought for $3 out of that bin at Ace Hardware.
Give it a rest Rambo - your still skin and bone and dont have eyes in the back of your head.


There are some anti's who could possibly be swayed
Absolutely. I love doing it with my wifes highly educated and "enlightend" democrat friends.
I do it by taking them to the range and letting them blast milk jugs and 4x4 landscape timber - by introducing fun and enjoyment to their formerly fearful mindset - not by rattling the crap out of them with substandard social behaviour and dress.

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 05:28 PM
Just for the record - Do I think we should have the right to OC? Sure.
I think we should have the right to do a whole lot of things we shouldnt do.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 05:37 PM
Dashunde, I'm going to guess you live in a university town or city, in a blue state. (Less of a guess than an inference based on comments you've made.)

What offends in your area, does not necessarily offend in all areas.

While I agree with some of what you have said, your tone is starting to grate. Some of us grew up in areas where the sight of a weapon didn't cause wide-spread panic, and there are still plenty of areas that fall into that category.

Substandard dress and behavior?

It might be substandard behavior to assume your personal standards are universal, and should be universally observed.

Edward429451
April 25, 2011, 05:45 PM
Interesting thread. Why conceal in an OC State? So you do not incite terror into sheople, which is a chargable offense in one form or another. So you OC, but hide it from the people who look as if they may take offense at the sight of the weapon, while making sure the weapon is readily apparent to LEO's.

Think ballroom dancing down the street, twirling away from G-ma and towards the cop...2, 3, 4...dance that jig of lawfulness! :D

Nnobby45
April 25, 2011, 05:59 PM
I have read on this forum some people live in a state where open carry is legal but they still carry concealed.

I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind it is.



You should be wondering why some one would open carry when they could carry concealed.

Some possibilities:

Maturity issues

A need make their point that the Second Amendment gives them such rights.

A desire to accustom the public to guns.

A desire to get noticed so all eyes are on them and they are the center of attention. Especially in places like malls where they'll likely be approached by security. Then they can post their interaction on a gun forum in a thread that may exceed 90 replies.

Their belief that open carry makes them safer because criminals won't mess with them.

Unaware that, with the badest of criminals, Bubba will likely shoot them first without hesitation.

Lack of knowledge or concern, regarding the tactical advantage associated with blending in and going unnoticed.

Participating in a demonstratioin that, done properly, may serve a useful purpose in the arena of gun rights.

There are more possibilities, but you get the general idea.:cool:

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 06:03 PM
Or they might be from areas like AZ or CO, where open carry is considered normal.

They might be accustomed to OC for convenience, or because open OWB is more comfortable than IWB on an oven-hot day.

They might be on their way to or from a hunt, in an area where OC is legal and they don't feel like switching rigs.

In some places, they may have entered an establishment where CC is illegal, but OC is legal, so they switched modes of carry rather than leaving a gun in the car. (VA leaps to mind.)

They might be from Wisconsin - oh, wait, CC isn't legal there, but we all know how terrible OC is, so those WI folk shouldn't do it.

Or, if we are saying they should do it in Wisconsin, since they can't CC, are we saying it's ok to dress and behave in a substandard way, show off our desire to be noticed, display low levels of maturity, and risk the attention of professional thieves and crackheads, but only in Wisconsin? Seems a bit on the hypocritical side, if that's what we are saying...

While your premises may be right in some cases, Nnobby45, they may be way off in others. Be careful how broad a brush you use.

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 06:08 PM
A kid in a Tuner car pulls up to a stoplight in a nice neighborhood. He's blasting his stereo. The old people in the Buick next to him shake their heads and click their tongues (and lock their doors).

Stripper mom shows up to the PTA meeting in her work clothes. Other moms sit redfaced and refuse to make eye contact.

I walk into a store in a granola eating neighborhood on the West Coast with a large, black semi automatic handgun OC in a tactical thigh holster. Shop owner calls 911 and store patrons back away from me toward the door.

All of these raise similar response for the similar reasons. The behavior is unexpected and unwelcome.

Now:

A kid in a Tuner car pulls up to his local hangout spot in the same car with the same stereo thumping. His buds bro-hug him and bump fists.

Stripper mom shows up to a bacheor party in her work clothes. She's greeted by wild appreciation.

I show up to a Wilbur-Ellis shop in the middle of Eastern Washington with a large, black semi-automatic handgun in a tactical thigh holster. I get a handshake from the guy who is going to load my fertilizer.

These responses are different because the situations are different. This time the behavior is normal and expected.

In my home area OC would bring me unwelcome attention and trouble. Unfortunately I fear this is the norm for more people than not. Most of us live in cities and their suburbs after all.

WhiskeyTango
April 25, 2011, 06:10 PM
Dachshund, I don't think I'm Rambo, and I certainly do not think I'm over confident. I know what I'm doing, but I don't go looking for trouble. I would never put my self in a situation were a crackhead could surprise me with a hammer. I never round blind corners, I don't walk down dark alleys or streets, I just plain don't go anywhere near bad parts of town, I almost always have an out, and if I don't I'm that much more alert. I identify threats based on body language, attitude, and yes, appearance in general. It was my job to pick out the bad guy when he looked and acted just like everybody else. So if me knowing I can handle myself in this big scary world is over confidence then perhaps I am, but I'm not stupid or irresponsible. I realize that gun owners and there actions speak to the world, and I don't do anything to jeopardize our collective image. I don't open carry into chucky cheeses when I take my daughter there, or to a little league game. I don't open carry to make people uneasy, or to shove it in the face of the anti's, I do it because it's my right, given by god, not the state or the government. I do it because I choose to. And if some people don't like it or think it's polite then screw 'em, we probably wouldn't have gotten along anyway.

As a side note, I lived in Arizona for most of my life, and open carry there was no big deal. LOTS of people OC there, and no one thinks twice about it. It didn't put people on edge, or cause any uproars. People were used to it. The problem with most other states is people are to liberal, afraid of real freedom and afraid of anyone who has it. Add to that people who don't want to rock the boat and you have a prime example of how this country got the way it is. We can sit here and argue about the tactical advantages of CC over OC, and whether or not the bad guys will pick you as a target because you are or you aren't. The real point here is it's our right, not a privilege(and this is directed at the group as a whole, not just Dachshund). If a bad guy wants to get you he will, it makes no difference whether you are CC or OC. If you don't want to OC and offend anyone or put a target on your back then don't, that's your decision, and there is nothing wrong with it, but don't look down your nose at those of us who choose to practice our right responsibly.

Nnobby45
April 25, 2011, 06:11 PM
While your premises may be right in some cases, Nnobby45, they may be way off in others. Be careful how broad a brush you use.

Well, it looks like you painted half the canvas. Me, the other half.;)

They might be from Wisconsin - oh, wait, CC isn't legal there, but we all know how terrible OC is, so those WI folk shouldn't do it.



OC where CCW is illegal isn't an issue. Only opting for OC when CCW is also an option.:cool:

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 06:16 PM
Like I said, I can think of lots of examples that would support your half, and that would justify Dashunde's outlook.

But I can think of plenty that would support the other side's view.

As an interesting drill, we could swap sides on the argument, and I think you'd surprise yourself at how many sincere (vs snide) justifications you could find for the other side's point of view. (In high school debate, each team MUST be prepared to argue either the Pro or Con side, and won't know which side they'll have to represent at any given debate, so they have to honestly try and understand both sides, regardless of personal bias, or they won't do well at all.)

Every group is going to have its obnoxious jerks. The trick is to try to keep the jerks under control, and let the ones who are less likely to fart in church take the lead. The other trick is to avoid name-calling, demonizing, and trivializing the other guy.

stonewall50
April 25, 2011, 06:18 PM
I reckon the only reason I would open carry is if I am hunting. I have no need for anyone else knowing I am carrying a gun at any other time. Why let them know that if they are going to pull something that I am the first guy to go for?

lawnboy
April 25, 2011, 06:29 PM
Every group is going to have its obnoxious jerks. The trick is to try to keep the jerks under control, and let the ones who are less likely to fart in church take the lead. The other trick is to avoid name-calling, demonizing, and trivializing the other guy.

Well said, and true. Again.

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 07:18 PM
Look, my outlook on this is pretty simple.
OC'ing has a whole bunch of negative attributes, least of all being what other people think, I view it more of a tactical blunder as a citizen carrying a weapon in a suburban and urban environment.
If your out on the ranch and around town and oc truly does fit the occasion and locale then have at it.

Oc'ing doesnt bother me in-and-of itself, but I do take issue with folks thinking they can use it as a educational tool or want to do it because it looks cool or makes them feel powerful and feared or simply because they have fun spooking others.
None of that is good social behaviour no matter where your from or at and those attitudes and behaviours certainly will not help promote a positive view of firearms.

Right now we still need continued positive results from all of the states that have ccw on the books, nevermind the distraction and possible negative effects of poorly practiced OC'ing.

smince
April 25, 2011, 07:30 PM
I found this link interesting:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?84540-The-%E2%80%9CDo%E2%80%99s%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9CDon%E2%80%99ts%E2%80%9D-of-Open-Carry-Part-I

smince
April 25, 2011, 07:34 PM
I just plain don't go anywhere near bad parts of townSometimes the 'bad parts of town' come to the good parts...
I don't open carry into chucky cheeses when I take my daughter there, or to a little league game.If it's your... right, given by god, not the state or the government. ...then why not open carry to Chucky's or the little league game? What makes them exceptions?

Dashunde
April 25, 2011, 07:47 PM
^Yea.. thats what I was thinking, and an example of why I've been so harsh on that individual (who is probably a great guy IRL).

I really hope all of you read the link that Smince posted above.. its really great common sense reading.


And I almost forgot...
... we might not be on the same page or have the same views, but we're still gun owners, and that means we're on the same team right?

Definitely.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 08:02 PM
Dashunde, that link preaches to the choir, even for some of us who think OC has its uses.

As previously noted, I personally only OC in a hunting context, though I would be willing to attend an organized OC event, assuming I did not think the host organization were not, for lack of a better term, nuts.

I suppose I might also OC when visiting friends who live in areas where, believe it or not, OC may be more socially acceptable than CC.

But I personally prefer CC for tactical reasons.

Ringolevio
April 25, 2011, 08:50 PM
Of course there are places and situations where OC is practical, convenient, and not necessarily tactically unwise.

But if there weren't a "showing off" component to Open Carry, we wouldn't have the term "barbecue gun".

On another note, I enjoyed the references to various locations in the Evergreen State. I've lived in Seattle, worked the orchards around Cashmere, partied in PT and used to have a cabin on 10 acres between Gardiner and Sequim. I also know my way around Neah Bay and Shi-Shi Beach.

I remember when the sex and drugs at the ol' Fremont Tavern or the Great Green Society flowed as freely as Petroleum Creek. But we still never had a nude bicycle parade! That sounds more like something you'd see on Capitol Hill or the U District.

But thanks for jogging my memory!

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 09:01 PM
I lived on Queen Anne hill a little over ten years ago. Thought the nude bicyclists crossed the Fremont Bridge on the annual ride, but I could have been wrong.

With regard to the barbecue gun, I thought those were for "showing off" at venues where the guests were friends (and gun people) and everybody was showing off, by design.

Nnobby45
April 25, 2011, 09:38 PM
As an interesting drill, we could swap sides on the argument, and I think you'd surprise yourself at how many sincere (vs snide) justifications you could find for the other side's point of view.

I understand your arguments. My amusement is mostly with those who intentionally do it to get attention, prove their point, and rub people's noses in the Second Amendment and create more enemies than friends for gun owners.

And yes, there are legit reasons for open carry.:cool:

WhiskeyTango
April 25, 2011, 10:21 PM
My point behind saying I won't OC in chucky cheeses or to the little league game, even though I legally could, is that I'm not a moron. I don't make it my mission to draw attention to myself. And I do understand that there are certain places where CC are more appropriate, like somewhere there are 200 kids running around. I don't have my CCW right now, it expired last year and I couldn't afford to renew it, still can't afford to renew it. I'll be able to with in the next few months here, hopefully before jacket weather comes again. And yes I'm guilty of CC even though my license is expired, sometimes it's just so natural having my sidearm on me I forget to leave it in the truck or tuck my shirt in. Point is right now I have to open carry because I'll be damned if I going unarmed. Am I supposed to leave my gun in the truck just because I have to go into walmart to get something? I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself everywhere I go?

When I finally do get my CCW back I'll probably CC a bit more often than I OC, point is, I'll OC if I feel like it, sometimes its just more comfortable, and because I CAN. One of the reasons I jumped into this fray was because so many were calling the OCers out, like they were idiots for even thinking of OCing, as if everyone that OC's is making a bad decision or being irresponsible and giving gun owners a bad name and I think that's a bunch of crap. I completely understand why some of you don't like the idea of OC, but thats just it, it's your idea, so don't. As I've already stated, we're supposed to be on the same team here, so in my opinion talking down to people who OC is bad form. We already have enough enemies, we don't need any from the inside.

WhiskeyTango
April 25, 2011, 10:50 PM
I wan't to clear something up. I do completely understand the other side of this debate. There are allot of people out there who have no business open carrying. Thats why I won't allow open carry at our public events, I don't really have to worry about the CCW crowd, it's the idiot with a gun on his hip that I have to keep an eye on. I wish I didn't have to ban OC from our event, but from a security standpoint it's just safer, I've got 4,000 people to keep an eye on, I don't need some idiot who's OCing pulling out his gun to show someone else how cool it is and accidentally shoot someone. But for every idiot out there who makes bad decisions, tries to draw attention, and just plain shouldn't own a gun, there are countless responsible gun owners who open carry every day. You shouldn't demonize a practice because a few people make fools of themselves, that's what the brady bunchers do to all gun owners period, except they use psycho nut jobs who kill innocent people as their scapegoats.

Ryder
April 26, 2011, 12:12 AM
Michigan does not have a law that makes OC legal. It simply lacks a law criminalizing it on a statewide basis. Local manicipalities in the state do have laws criminalizing it. I don't OC because I don't want to research the statutes of thousands of different townships, villages, and cities. There is also no such thing as open carry in a motor vehicle here and I rarely go anyplace without motorized transport.

threegun
April 26, 2011, 08:10 AM
But I personally prefer CC for tactical reasons.

Exactly! The element of surprise is a huge tactical bonus.


With Open Carry you simply lose this advantage. Now if you are targeted the bad guy will know what he is up against and prepare an appropriate attack.

The deterrent of the gun in open carry will certainly result in a reduction of overall attacks however when an attack occurs it will likely be a bad one.

pgdion
April 26, 2011, 08:25 AM
MN is also technically open carry although absolutely no one does.

Buck nailed it right on the head in the #2 post.

lawnboy
April 26, 2011, 09:30 AM
Mleake and Ringolevio,

The parade is actually called the Fremont Solstice Parade and the nude bicycling is just one part of it. But everyone sees it as the "nude bicycle parade". It does cross the bridge. And I'm sure Capitol hill residents and U district residents are extremely jealous that they didn't think of it first. But I'm sure lots of them attend anyway :)

WA now has a law that prohibits CC at a "public music festival" (I think it prohibits all guns but I'll have to read up on it). I know they have music at this parade so I bet even CC runs afoul of state law (aside from being difficult when nude).

WhiskeyTango
April 26, 2011, 11:40 AM
The deterrent of the gun in open carry will certainly result in a reduction of overall attacks however when an attack occurs it will likely be a bad one

I would rather get into one really bad one then a whole string of little piddly one's:D I got into enough little ones and bad ones overseas to do me a lifetime.

publius
April 26, 2011, 12:11 PM
I'm all for it if that's your thing. I dream of moving to Flathead Lake, MT. and would probably OC there b/c it's more comfortable and I doubt anyone cares. Now, I doubt I would OC in downtown Billings or in most big cities anywhere. I'm not out to make a statement unless I think it serves a purpose. The only situation in which I would definitely OC is if I lived in IMTHEDUKE's County in AL where it is legal and the Sheriff has threatened to arrest anybody that does it b/c he doesn't like the law. Arrogant, oppressive law enforcement p----- me off and I consider it my duty as an American to take them and crooked politicians down. I think a Civil rights violation lawsuit against the Sheriff and the County would suffice.

Stevie-Ray
April 26, 2011, 01:06 PM
I don't have my CCW right now, it expired last year and I couldn't afford to renew it, still can't afford to renew it. Point is right now I have to open carry because I'll be damned if I going unarmed. Am I supposed to leave my gun in the truck just because I have to go into walmart to get something? I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself everywhere I go?
And that bring up yet another wonderful point about OC. Wayne county, where I live, contains the city of Detroit. Detroit is full of people that haven't the means to fund CC for themselves; can't even come up with rent money regularly. But they may have that old revolver or auto that pa or grandpa left to them years ago. Are they not entitled to self-defense outside of their homes? Most murders in Detroit don't even rate news coverage, like many major cities. Wayne county is definitely the county that will get you noticed if you OC, but it is still LEGAL, like it or not.

Ringolevio
April 26, 2011, 01:16 PM
lawnboy wrote:
WA now has a law that prohibits CC at a "public music festival" (I think it prohibits all guns but I'll have to read up on it). I know they have music at this parade so I bet even CC runs afoul of state law (aside from being difficult when nude).

Ya think ya can't CC while in the nude? Check out my post #38 in the thread "How to Carry Concealed" (in this same Forum).

lawnboy
April 26, 2011, 01:35 PM
I said difficult, not impossible. Was that the place up near Arlington?

threegun
April 26, 2011, 01:48 PM
I would rather get into one really bad one then a whole string of little piddly one's I got into enough little ones and bad ones overseas to do me a lifetime.


Really? How would you approach a robbery or assault on an armed openly carrying victim? I would simply shoot them and then take what I want. Not something I would want to defend against if that bad one does happen.


BTW been carrying since the very early 90's. Only had a couple of things happen in that time. SA has kept me pretty unscathed to date.

lawnboy
April 26, 2011, 01:48 PM
Stevie Ray,

I would consider such areas of Detroit and it's environs a place where arming yourself is necessary for all the reasons you stated. I'd still opt for legal CC if possible and save legal OC for a last resort. Unless it has become common to see OC in Detroit. By common I'd say that you see several non LEO people OC-ing every day in the course of your normal routine. If it's common, like it is in some rural areas in my state, then I say go for it.

The difference between carrying in a high crime area like most of Detroit and carrying in a low crime place like rural Eastern Washington is that you are unlikely to ever need the weapon to defend yourself in Eastern Washington. You are way more likely to need it in Detroit. So I say preserve the element of surprise and CC if you have the option. That's what I'd do. I value surprise over deterrence. Personal decision.

WhiskeyTango
April 26, 2011, 10:05 PM
A bad guy who is going to shoot you because your carrying a sidearm in the open is more than likely going to shoot you if your carrying concealed anyway. Bad guys don't usually carry in the open, so he will more than likely have to pull his weapon out of hiding to be able to shoot a victim that is open carrying. I'm pretty good at my job, which most of the time is identifying threats, and if I can't legally CC, I would rather OC and rely on my ability to see the threat coming, it's either that or not carry at all, and become a victim without doing anything to prevent it. Sorry, but I'm not one to lay down and take it.

Jim March
April 26, 2011, 11:34 PM
Plus there's sheeple who go like this when they see your piece:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/TecRsq/Gif%20Images/BudyAgast.gif

TenRing
April 27, 2011, 12:21 AM
I'm thankful to have the right to choose between OC and CC depending on my daily situation and circumstances. Unfortunately for me, the problem is that I have to be cognizant of how my private behavior affects me on the job.

I have been known to OC when hunting away from town with my hunting buddies and that is no big deal at all. However, if I were OCing around town and my co-workers or bosses saw me exercising my 2A rights, I'm convinced that there would be some uncomfortable consequences for me back at work. There would probably be plenty of snide remarks and innuendo from people who just don't get it. This isn't right and it's not fair but I can't do much about it and I'm not brave enough to risk my job just to prove that I can OC.

The less people know about my carry status, the better. Everybody's situation is different and I fully support the decision of anyone who chooses to OC. Part of being in society is the fact that we are all subject to each other's influence whether we like it or not.

Ringolevio
April 27, 2011, 12:45 AM
lawnboy wrote [re my reference to CC while at a nude beach]:
I said difficult, not impossible. Was that the place up near Arlington?

Negatory. It was a beach on Sauvie's Island, outside Portland. Circa 1979 - '83.

Come to think of it, I believe it was my frequent trips to that beach that induced me to buy my first semi-auto. Up until that time I owned only revolvers, but I reckoned that it would be easier to strip and flush sand out of a semi-auto than out of a revolver.

Polynikes
April 27, 2011, 09:54 AM
I OC here in Colorado because I'm waiting on the Sheriff's Office to issue my permit. ;)

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2011, 11:03 AM
A bad guy who shoots you for OC may do that to get the gun. If you are CCing, then he or she is unlikely to shoot you for your gun, unless the BG is really Mae West. Think about it.

So is this about legit issues or posturing? You want to be seen as a tough guy as compared to legit deterrence?

That's different from being in a OC only state.

There may be casual deterrence. We have the Pancake house case, where OC scared off some BGs. We have some OCs being specifically targeted.

One might be confident in one's abilities but we do see LEOs (yes, you might be better than them) being taken out in ambush or by simply walking up and shooting four of them. A SWAT team member was disarmed and killed with his gun near where I live. YYMV.

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 11:13 AM
Glenn, while there are some who see OC as a deterrent, I think many of us see the primary advantage to legalized OC in two other scenarios:

1) inadvertent printing or display of a CC weapon;

and

2) transit to and from hunting sites.

I'm not about to head into metro Atlanta OCing. Nor Philadelphia, Orlando, etc. Even where it's legal, I don't prefer it in a metro setting. But I still think it should be legal.

Then again, I like my governmental regulation to be toward the minimal end, in most things.

I still feel that in those areas that don't have CC, or that make CC very difficult to get, people should definitely be allowed to OC if they wish. In one of those places where OC was legal, and I couldn't CC, I might actually OC, but with the minimum amount of exposure the law would allow, probably IWB with just the grip exposed.

Normally, though, the only places where my permits don't work are also places where one can't OC. I don't have occasion to visit Wisconsin...

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2011, 11:23 AM
I'd make OC legal but I was trying to focus on the major reasons for such. Casual exposure, sure - on the way to hunting, been there - but I don't seem them as the center of the argument.

There is also a political issue of pushing OC at the same time as other progun legislation and the former interferring with the latter. TX has had such fights. Given OC has a lesser chance to pass - the risk of a combined failure of all bills was a mess. However, since the campus carry bills and parking lots are failing - a long story - that may be moot.

LordTio3
April 27, 2011, 11:30 AM
I CC in my OC state mainly for these reasons:

1. "Is that thing loaded?"
2. "Is that legal?"
3. "Are you sure you can do that?"
4. "Hey! What do you think you're DOING?! What do you mean it's legal?"
5. "Wait right there. Don't come any closer."
6. "It's really legal?"

Honestly, as a responsible gun owner, I find in necessary to address these issues when they arrise. I calmly talk to people and explain the legalities of my method of carry, and provide as much information about it as possible in a patient and friendly tone.

I just don't have to time to do that all the time. And there are a LOT of people who have no problem stopping you and asking these questions.

~LT

threegun
April 27, 2011, 12:31 PM
A bad guy who is going to shoot you because your carrying a sidearm in the open is more than likely going to shoot you if your carrying concealed anyway.

You are assuming that the same bad guy who is willing to shoot you first because you are openly carrying, has shot every previous unarmed or concealed carry victim at the onset of the robbery. I think this is incorrect.

At my job we open carry. In 27 years not even a single robbery has taken place in our shops. This despite multiple robberies of pawnshops in the immediate area. OC has aided us in avoiding litterally dozens of robberies.

That said only a fool would not realize that when our day finally comes there is a good chance that its gonna be very bad from the onset. Someone will be forced to open fire at the onset and possibly come with multiple heavily armed foe. We are constantly watching for the signs and looking for folks staging outside. We have cameras around the outside perimeter just to prevent/prepare for the bad one.

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 12:37 PM
threegun, I suspect you are not normally alone when you OC.

Most of the shops I've been in where OC was used, had a minimum of two people on the floor. Most had three or four.

I think OC is more of a deterrent when there's more than one guy carrying.

I can only recall one place where the guy OC'ed, and it was only him, and that's a guy viewed as "a local character" in Kennesaw, GA. He's not likely to get shot in a robbery, as he mostly sells collectibles that would appeal primarily to guys who wear white hoods, or shaven heads and leather. (I hadn't realized that when I entered the place, or I wouldn't have entered the place.)

Not likely to have much money. If he ever gets shot, I assume it will be because:

1) Somebody wants the 1911's he wears in a double-crossdraw rig; or

2) Somebody gets violently offended by his inventory and his comments.

FireForged
April 27, 2011, 01:16 PM
It all boils down to personal preference and what your SD tactics are. If its legal to OC, I will not fault anyone for doing so. That being said, I live in a OC state and always CC.

As a lone citizen, I am not inclined to believe that holding myself out to the "public at large" as a armed person is going to greatly benifit me (self defence wise) over Concealed Carry. Can OC deter a criminal, sure. I think the level of deterrance is best determined by a "flip of a coin". It all depends on the badguy, how violent and now determind he is. I would prefer not to stand out and decide for myself when and what action I will take, if any.

I also do not prefer all the unwanted attention, contacts, conversation, questions, attitudes, glares and 911 calls that typcally go along with OC.

Ringolevio
April 27, 2011, 04:06 PM
MLeake wrote:
I can only recall one place where the guy OC'ed, and it was only him, and that's a guy viewed as "a local character" in Kennesaw, GA. He's not likely to get shot in a robbery, as he mostly sells collectibles that would appeal primarily to guys who wear white hoods, or shaven heads and leather. (I hadn't realized that when I entered the place, or I wouldn't have entered the place.)

Not likely to have much money. If he ever gets shot, I assume it will be because:

1) Somebody wants the 1911's he wears in a double-crossdraw rig; or

2) Somebody gets violently offended by his inventory and his comments.

Well, whaddya know, MLeake! You and I have a mutual friend!
There's only one fellow who fits your description, and I count him among my friends, despite the impression and the rhetoric associated with him and his little shop/museum.

You do realize that the fellow is a legitimate authority and historical consultant on "The War of Northern Aggression". And the Battle of Kennesaw Mountain was one in which the Grays really, really put a whuppin' on the Blues.

When I first went in there, years ago, I saw all the various hate-group notices outside, and saw our friend's two longslide 1911s worn Wild Bill Hickok-style, and because I belong to one of the ethnic groups he purports to hate, I stood in the doorway and said, "Here I am! If you wanna kill folks like me, I'll stand here and make a target for you; take your best shot!"

Needless to say, I'm still alive, and I used to visit every time I was down there and we'd have lunch. I haven't been down that way in quite awhile, but we correspond now and again via e-mail.

Remember that Kennesaw is the town that REQUIRED all residents to own guns. They did it in reaction to Morton Grove, Illinois FORBIDDING their citizens from owning guns, even in their own homes.

There never was much crime in Kennesaw, but when their "must own" (not "must carry") law went into effect, whatever crime there was pretty much evaporated.

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 04:14 PM
Ringolevio, my impression was based on inventory I found to be overtly racist, and comments made about the government that I found to be over the top.

Could be our mutual acquaintance is just an indiscriminate collector, and that I judged too quickly, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

lawnboy
April 27, 2011, 04:41 PM
I personally view the OC/CC issue like this:


I'll support any legislation to legalize OC where it is not currently legal.
I'll support any legislation so legalize CC where it is not currently legal
I'll always support KEEPING OC and/or CC where it is already legal
I'll choose to CC except in the rare situation where I'm in a location where OC is as natural and widespread as wearing shoes (or where it is the only option).
I'll argue politely in private (like here) with anyone who thinks they're serving an educational purpose by OC where OC is not common


I wish all the OC folks well and I hope I'm wrong about the educational/tactical possibilities of OC.

P.S. This thread elsewhere on TFL is the nightmare scenario that can result from someone seeing you carrying a gun, legal or not. This does happen:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449445

threegun
April 27, 2011, 04:57 PM
threegun, I suspect you are not normally alone when you OC.



Years ago we ran one of the two stores with a single employee. I worked a few times at that location. Nowadays its multiples at both stores.

It worked as a deterrent even single man because we had control of space via counters. We were very very cautious when on the wrong side of the counter. Personally I didn't like being alone although others preferred it.

Tom Servo
April 27, 2011, 09:44 PM
Could be our mutual acquaintance is just an indiscriminate collector, and that I judged too quickly, but it wasn't my cup of tea.
He's toned down the rhetoric the last few years, but unless I'm mistaken, he's still in the local KKK leadership.

GoOfY-FoOt
April 27, 2011, 09:59 PM
I'll choose to CC except in the rare situation where I'm in a location where OC is as natural and widespread as wearing shoes

I do believe this statement is an oxymoron....:p

As in, the more widespread that OC is accepted, the less the desire for quality footwear....

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 10:05 PM
Never been to southwest CO, eh, Goofy-Foot? Pagosa Springs is not much lower rent than Aspen, but it's a big area for OC. Lots of hunters, hikers, and horse folk.

GoOfY-FoOt
April 27, 2011, 11:26 PM
It was a joke....And, I was picturing the hills of Kentucky. (very near where I was born)

zxcvbob
April 27, 2011, 11:59 PM
Whenever I drive across Kentucky, I take my shoes off at the state line. (true) It just seems fitting. And I've been told to be careful if they are leather, 'cuz someone may swipe them for the burgoo pot. ;)
__________________
"When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky where my parents were born. There's a backwards old town that's often remembered So many times that the memories are worn" -John Prine

smince
May 1, 2011, 03:35 PM
Since I posted the link to the Open Carry thread in #105, it has went to 9 pages with some interesting responses.

Nnobby45
May 1, 2011, 07:00 PM
Honestly, as a responsible gun owner, I find in necessary to address these issues when they arrise. I calmly talk to people and explain the legalities of my method of carry, and provide as much information about it as possible in a patient and friendly tone.

I just don't have to time to do that all the time. And there are a LOT of people who have no problem stopping you and asking these questions.



OK, apparently the purpose of the gun for you is that of conversation starter so that you might educate others, especially those who have a negative response to OC.

Thank you.

While drawing attention to yourself so you can educate the public, no one will notice me and I can play the part of Gray Man (one of Clint Smith's references). Hopefully, I won't be distracted by you and the interesting conversation so that I might forget to be alert to my other surroundings.;)

JustThisGuy
May 11, 2011, 01:34 PM
The best reason to live in an open carry state is so that if a concealed carry accidentally displays for a moment such as if my jacket suddenly blows open on a windy day at a gas pump, no crime has been committed.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 02:21 PM
Really? How would you approach a robbery or assault on an armed openly carrying victim? I would simply shoot them and then take what I want. Not something I would want to defend against if that bad one does happen.

You see, that's where we differ. I'd approach the robbery or assault of an openly carrying victim by choosing somebody else. As the criminal, I would get to pick when, where, and who I attack. And soft targets would appeal a _lot_ more than armed targets. After all, even if I took the "just shoot them" approach, maybe I'd miss, or maybe I'd get them but they'd remain active ("the dead man's ten seconds") long enough to return fire. Chancy, even when I have the drop on them. Better to find someone who's less risky.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 02:38 PM
A bad guy who shoots you for OC may do that to get the gun. If you are CCing, then he or she is unlikely to shoot you for your gun, unless the BG is really Mae West. Think about it.

So far two cases of that have been presented. Is something for which only two cases can and have been presented really something to worry about? And what _else_ might one have/do that can lead to at least two cases of someone being targeted? A nice suit (indicating that you might have money)? Nice watch? Nice car to be carjacked? Nice stereo visible from a window (leading to a home invasion)?

If "someone might target you for it" is sufficient reason to not OC then what else are you willing to give up to avoid being a target? Dress like a bum so no one thinks you have money? Live in a dump? Drive a POS car all the time that nobody wants to jack? Where else does this approach extend?

Similar for the "they might target you first" argument that some make. I have been around on the cc vs. oc argument before and to date nobody has come up with an example of a citizen, lawfully armed and open carrying who was targeted first at a robbery. This has happened to police and uniformed security but that's not quite the same thing. Police and paid security are a "regular" item that would be included in the criminals' plans. And again, even if one came up with one, how often does it really happen compared to other things?

Finally (and this is just a general response), regarding all the psychoanalyzing of people who OC from some CC proponents. Would you like it if the tables were turned, and it were assumed that the reason you conceal, when you could carry openly, is because you recognize that guns are something to be hidden away because they are shameful? Tell you what: I won't make unflattering assumptions about your motives and you can perhaps return the favor.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 03:14 PM
As a CC proponent, I choose to CC because I don't want the fact that I have a gun to be noticed. I have the gun. I know I have the gun. Until it is time to use the gun I'm the only one who needs to know.

In my opinion, and that's all it is, unless you are in a place where OC is normal and accepted, you are a poser and a wannabe if you OC. I'm being honest here. If I see you walking down the street in Seattle OCing thats the thought going thru my mind. If I see the same thing in Wenatchee or Omak I'm barely noticing.

Civilians who OC in places where OC is abnormal are attention hogs (again, my opinion). I judge them the exact same way I judge people with unnaturally colored hair, multiple piercings, excessive tattoos, neon colored cars and other "hey look at me" displays.

I support the right to OC. I also support discretion. Legal and right are not the same thing. The law decides legal. I decide right. And so do you.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 03:52 PM
"The thought going through my mind" says more about you than about anything else. That's true for anybody, anywhere.

One thing I do notice, however. The proponents of OC tend to be accepting of CC proponents reasons and decisions. They may disagree with them but, generally don't denigrate the individuals for making choices different from their own. The same cannot be said for many of the CC proponents.

Oh, and saying "my opinion" doesn't make an insult any less insulting.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 04:00 PM
I accept full responsibility for what I think. And say. You can rest assured that I've considered every possible way in which any comments I make can be interpreted and have worded those comments in a way intended to make my point. I'm very proud of what runs through my mind. As an adult I consider it my solemn duty to judge people. Accepting everyone for what they are is for kindergarten.

I've noticed the exact opposite tendency in the OC/CC argument. CC'ers support the right to OC even when we choose not to exercise it. OC'ers tend to challenge our commitment to the cause.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 04:04 PM
Right, right, right. Calling people "attention hogs" and the like is so accepting of people coming to different conclusions than you.

It's not your choice to CC that causes people to question, but your choice to denigrate those who OC that leads to the questioning.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 04:19 PM
Right, right, right. Calling people "attention hogs" and the like is so accepting of people coming to different conclusions than you.

It's not your choice to CC that causes people to question, but your choice to denigrate those who OC that leads to the questioning.

I did not at any point say that I'm accepting of people coming to different conclusions than me. I do not accept any such thing. If I come to a conclusion it is because I have thought it out and have decided that the conclusion is the correct one. I do not come to such conclusions until I'm satisfied that I've considered it properly. If you come to another conclusion I think you are wrong.

You are entitled to come to different conclusions. I can think you are wrong without trying to take away your right to do so. But I'm under no obligation to keep my mouth shut about it. Nor to sugar coat what I think.

In the end, if the subject of OC comes up in my state I'll vote to keep it legal. But this does not change my conclusions the next time I see someone OCing in an inappropriate setting.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 04:40 PM
There is a difference between making a reasoned adult judgement and making assumptions based on ones own prejudices. People have given a number of reasons why they or others OC. You dismiss all of that and simply assume that your claimed reason "they are attention hogs" is correct.

As I said the "thought going through [your] mind" says more about you than about the people you are thinking about.

And, I have also found that there is no strong correlation between the certainty that someone is that he or she is right and he or she actually being right, at least not on anything more complicated than 2+2=4.

If anything, the certainty of ones position is a problem since the first step in learning is acknowledgment that one might actually be mistaken.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 04:59 PM
There is a difference between making a reasoned adult judgement and making assumptions based on ones own prejudices. People have given a number of reasons why they or others OC. You dismiss all of that and simply assume that your claimed reason "they are attention hogs" is correct.

Who elses prejudices should I base my judgements on? My contention is that I am obligated to judge. My judgement is as stated. Your contention that I should base my judgements on the prejudices of you or someone else besides me is just silly.

As I said the "thought going through [your] mind" says more about you than about the people you are thinking about.


Yes it does. Thank you for noticing. Intellectual honesty wasn't easy to achieve. I hope I'm able to hang on to it.

And, I have also found that there is no strong correlation between the certainty that someone is that he or she is right and he or she actually being right, at least not on anything more complicated than 2+2=4.

If anything, the certainty of ones position is a problem since the first step in learning is acknowledgment that one might actually be mistaken.

I have found the same thing. Unfortunately, in our diseased society the solution to this problem is for no one to THINK anything. There is plenty of "belief" but little thought. Denial of even the possibility that a mere human can actually determine right and wrong for themselves seems to me to be just another symptom of this. If people like Jefferson and Hamilton had suffered this delusion there would be no 2nd Amendment to begin with.

I see the following bumpersticker about once a week: "Don't believe everything you think". What am I supposed to believe? What someone else thinks? Yeah, that's gonna happen.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 05:07 PM
Who elses prejudices should I base my judgements on? My contention is that I am obligated to judge. My judgement is as stated. Your contention that I should base my judgements on the prejudices of you or someone else besides me is just silly.

You know, there are things other than prejudices on which to base judgements. You might consider listening to other folks arguments and reasons and actually considering them rather than just blanket tossing them out in order to cling to your prejudice.

A number of reasons for people open carrying have been presented. You just blithely dismiss all of them and claim, with no evidence but your assertion that the "real" reason is that they are attention hogs.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 05:31 PM
Not at all. I've considered the stated reasons. I just find them unconvincing. I'm doing the same thing you are. I just realize it. And am fine with it.

Dashunde
May 11, 2011, 05:58 PM
If "someone might target you for it" is sufficient reason to not OC then what else are you willing to give up to avoid being a target? Dress like a bum so no one thinks you have money? Live in a dump? Drive a POS car all the time that nobody wants to jack? Where else does this approach extend?
At a glance that all makes sense, except that firearms, particularly stolen pistols, are highly sought by the scum, mostly because they a cant buy one at the store unlike everything else you mentioned.
Firearms are the one thing that no matter how much money you have if you have a felony you cant buy it legally, therefore pistols are top prize items on the street, bring good money, and are likely worth the risk to take from you.
Yes, a OC'er could easily be targeted because of his gun. Simple as that.

There is plenty of "belief" but little thought
Amen. ;)

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 06:08 PM
Not at all. I've considered the stated reasons. I just find them unconvincing. I'm doing the same thing you are. I just realize it. And am fine with it.

Whether you find them convincing or not has nothing to do with whether someone else finds them convincing or not. If someone considers OC a better deterrent than CC then that can well be the reason they carry, whether or not you also believe it. That would be the reason that they carry and not because they are "an attention hound." Likewise, if someone believes that OC is beneficial in terms of desensitizing people to the idea of people carrying, then that too is their reason regardless of whether you happen to agree with the belief.

You are assuming a reason for OC not only in absence of evidence of that being the reason but in flat contradiction to the reasons people are telling you.

Just because you disagree with their reasons doesn't mean they're not their reasons. It's the mind-reading, psychoanalyzing, and insisting that the reasons are not the ones they state to which people object, not your choice to CC instead of OC.

Dashunde
May 11, 2011, 06:27 PM
Likewise, if someone believes that OC is beneficial in terms of desensitizing people to the idea of people carrying, then that too is their reason regardless of whether you happen to agree with the belief.
Naa. That may be their "reason", but its a lousy one thats far more likely to generate a negative response than positive.
Sitting in Olive Garden with a CZ97 strapped on in plain sight? Oh that'll desensitize them alright, just enough to vote against the "crazy gun people" the next time CC is challenged.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 06:31 PM
At a glance that all makes sense, except that firearms, particularly stolen pistols, are highly sought by the scum, mostly because they a cant buy one at the store unlike everything else you mentioned.
Firearms are the one thing that no matter how much money you have if you have a felony you cant buy it legally, therefore pistols are top prize items on the street, bring good money, and are likely worth the risk to take from you.
Yes, a OC'er could easily be targeted because of his gun. Simple as that.

That sounds good but, if that were the case proponents of the "you'll be targeted" theory should be able to come up with long lists of examples of people being targeted specifically for their firearms. So far we've got two.

It may be difficult for a felon to obtain firearms from a legal source (a little bit different from the "cant buy it legally" which is impossible by definition) but that's why there's a booming trade in illegal guns.

Back in the 80's NBC (I think it was) did a "special report" tracing one gun from crime to crime over a number of years and several states. They were using it in an attempt to show how bad guns were and we needed to get them off the street. What the report showed to me was how few guns are really needed to "serve" criminal uses of them as one gun gets sold/passed from criminal to criminal to criminal and used again and again and again.

As for the "good money", how much? Source please. I have: More than half of arrestees say guns easy to obtain illegally: (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf) Specific prices for Glocks: $300-500 (http://richmondconfidential.org/2010/11/09/every-gun-has-a-story/) not too far from their legal price (last time I checked, which has been a while, so stipulated), much less than a nice rolex will bring on ebay and less than one can net from jacking a car to be stripped.

And so the "you'll be targeted for your gun" argument really seems to be one of those theoretical things that just doesn't seem to be happening.

Yes, if somebody does pull of a successful robbery, they'll take your gun too. But they'll almost certainly do that whether you OC or CC. It's the targeting specifically because they see you carrying that I question.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 06:34 PM
[quote]Naa. That may be their "reason", but its a lousy one thats far more likely to generate a negative response than positive.
Sitting in Olive Garden with a CZ97 strapped on in plain sight? Oh that'll desensitize them alright, just enough to vote against the "crazy gun people" the next time CC is challenged. [quote]

In much the same way that the Stonewall riots led to a backlash against gays and a legal crackdown restricting even the rights they had then? In much the way that "gay pride" parades and other visible activism has been far less successful than the decades of "go along to get along" approach that "gay leaders" advocated before Stonewall?

Caution is one thing. Taking counsel of ones fears is something entirely different.

What you're doing is assuming your conclusion.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 06:52 PM
Whether you find them convincing or not has nothing to do with whether someone else finds them convincing or not. If someone considers OC a better deterrent than CC then that can well be the reason they carry, whether or not you also believe it. That would be the reason that they carry and not because they are "an attention hound." Likewise, if someone believes that OC is beneficial in terms of desensitizing people to the idea of people carrying, then that too is their reason regardless of whether you happen to agree with the belief.

You are assuming a reason for OC not only in absence of evidence of that being the reason but in flat contradiction to the reasons people are telling you.

Just because you disagree with their reasons doesn't mean they're not their reasons. It's the mind-reading, psychoanalyzing, and insisting that the reasons are not the ones they state to which people object, not your choice to CC instead of OC.

Still unconvincing.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 07:12 PM
Still unconvincing.

So? That you are unconvinced by their reasons still does not give you license to substitute your reasons for theirs.

It's no more valid than were I to say that the reason you CC is that you're secretly ashamed of your gun.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 07:39 PM
I wrote:
Quote:
Still unconvincing.

dburkhead wrote:
So? That you are unconvinced by their reasons still does not give you license to substitute your reasons for theirs.

Do I require license to have thoughts and draw conclusions? I do not. That's my point. I get to decide what I think.

dburkhead wrote:
It's no more valid than were I to say that the reason you CC is that you're secretly ashamed of your gun

You are perfectly justified to say just that if that is what you think. That is also my point. And I'm justified in disputing it. We don't have to agree. We don't even have to agree to disagree. We can just disagree. You are perfectly within your purview to think that all of us who CC in OC states are soft on gun issues. You're just wrong.

Dashunde
May 11, 2011, 08:19 PM
..if that were the case proponents of the "you'll be targeted" theory should be able to come up with long lists of examples of people being targeted specifically for their firearms. So far we've got two.
Because there is very little open carry going on, increase the rate and spread of OC and watch what happens.
Go do it in North St Louis, East St Louis or South Chicago... none of you OC'er wannabe's really have the guts to go into those areas with a gun exposed and no badge, go try to "desensitize" them or try to "deter" them with your exposed peice. :rolleyes:

Source please. I have: More than half of arrestees say guns easy to obtain illegally: (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163496.pdf) Specific prices for Glocks: $300-500
I dont see your point. We seem to be in agreement that a stolen gun on the street is worth the same as a legally purchased gun.
Agree or not, its pretty clear that a hot gun in the hood will sell for about the same as a legal one - therein lies the motive to steal the OC'ers weapon if presented the opportunity.
As I've said before, it only takes a $3 claw hammer, a small amount of wits.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 08:26 PM
Do I require license to have thoughts and draw conclusions? I do not. That's my point. I get to decide what I think.

Well, if you want to claim the "right" to make unsupported and unsupportable conclusions in direct contravention of available evidence and present them as "facts" I won't argue.

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 08:39 PM
Because there is very little open carry going on, increase the rate and spread of OC and watch what happens.

Ah, the old assuming your conclusion gambit.

Two cases presented so far. OC isn't that rare.

Go do it in North St Louis, East St Louis or South Chicago... none of you OC'er wannabe's really have the guts to go into those areas with a gun exposed and no badge, go try to "desensitize" them or try to "deter" them with your exposed peice.

Right after you walk down the streets of Riyadh with a "I'll see your Jihad and raise you one crusade" T-shirt and rely on "surprise" from your concealed handgun to give you an "advantage."

Don't know about East St. Louis, but carrying at all is illegal in Chicago so I'd be more worried about the cops than about the criminal element.

And even ignoring all that just because a tactic doesn't work one place that means it doesn't work any place? That's a pretty broad brush you're using there.

I dont see your point. We seem to be in agreement that a stolen gun on the street is worth the same as a legally purchased gun.
Agree or not, its pretty clear that a hot gun in the hood will sell for about the same as a legal one - therein lies the motive to steal the OC'ers weapon if presented the opportunity.
As I've said before, it only takes a $3 claw hammer, a small amount of wits.

And that applies to anything that indicates you might have something of value. So never wear those nice clothes. Never drive that nice car. Never wear a nice wristwatch. Live a life of poverty because someone might try to rob you for anything more.

The credit cards I carry generally have more value to them than my gun. And someone can reasonably expect that kind of return for that $3 claw hammer and a small amount of wits _without_ the risk of making a mistake and ending up getting a 230 grain JHP Darwin Delivery (or a 95% chance of not having that risk since only about 5% of Indiana's population has a LTCH).

Even with that supposed motive it remains only two cases presented so far. And that's not a case of two this year but two period.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 09:21 PM
Well, if you want to claim the "right" to make unsupported and unsupportable conclusions in direct contravention of available evidence and present them as "facts" I won't argue

I presented nothing as fact except my own thoughts. I said:

In my opinion, and that's all it is, unless you are in a place where OC is normal and accepted, you are a poser and a wannabe if you OC. I'm being honest here. If I see you walking down the street in Seattle OCing thats the thought going thru my mind. If I see the same thing in Wenatchee or Omak I'm barely noticing.

The available evidence is a guy walking down the street with a clearly visible firearm in a place where such a thing is just not done. I draw a conclusion. My conclusion is based on the information I have. If I see the same thing in a place where it is more common I draw a different conclusion. In fact, I've OC'd myself in those circumstances. Conclusions drawn from available evidence and supported by the situation. In my mind, which is what really matters. To me.

As to whether you will argue or not; you've been arguing exactly what you say you are not arguing. You have been doing it for a few hours now. In repeated posts.

Right after you walk down the streets of Riyadh with a "I'll see your Jihad and raise you one crusade" T-shirt and rely on "surprise" from your concealed handgun to give you an "advantage.

I'll have to defer to others on this but I don't know if OC is legal in Riyadh. Once again though you're making the opposite point you're trying to make. Islamists don't seem deterred even by Abrams tanks. They attack anyway. Where is the deterrence?

dburkhead
May 11, 2011, 09:38 PM
In my opinion, and that's all it is, unless you are in a place where OC is normal and accepted, you are a poser and a wannabe if you OC. I'm being honest here. If I see you walking down the street in Seattle OCing thats the thought going thru my mind. If I see the same thing in Wenatchee or Omak I'm barely noticing.

Saying "you are a poser and a wannabe" is claiming a matter of fact. It's no different from saying on the flip side "if you are walking down the street of X and are concealing your gun you are ashamed of your gun and halfway to being an anti".

Both are cases of assuming the other person's motives in the absence of evidence.

The available evidence is a guy walking down the street with a clearly visible firearm in a place where such a thing is just not done.

That is only evidence that a person is carrying openly. It is not evidence of motive. You assume the motive.

As to whether you will argue or not; you've been arguing exactly what you say you are not arguing. You have been doing it for a few hours now. In repeated posts.

Not quite. I thought you had some interest in having a valid position and not just making derogatory statements about people who disagree with you.

If you have any interest in discussing the actual issue and dealing with people's real motives (rather than what you just assume, despite being told otherwise, are their motives) we can do that. If instead, you're "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with anything that doesn't fit my comfortable world view" then, yeah, it's time to end this.

lawnboy
May 11, 2011, 10:10 PM
Is it the "you" you're having a problem with? In my original post? This was before I had engaged YOU specifically. I would not advise you to logically insert "dburkhead" in my scenario. It is a fictional "you" in a theoretical setting. If I see a random, unknown person walking down the street with a visible firearm in Seattle I draw a conclusion about him in the same way I draw a conclusion about a guy with a pink mohawk. If you choose to put yourself in my scenario, given the fact that I don't know you by sight, unfortunately I'll think this about you too. Sorry.

I cannot see any way around this. I draw the conclusion I draw. You must see by now that I have clearly given this some thought and I'm not pulling it from my behind. I present it as fact that it is my opinion. Attempting to convince me that this is not my opinion is a losing game.

I wrote:
Quote:
The available evidence is a guy walking down the street with a clearly visible firearm in a place where such a thing is just not done.

You responded:
That is only evidence that a person is carrying openly. It is not evidence of motive. You assume the motive.
Exactly. An unknown person with a gun is something to take note of. If this person is openly carrying the gun in a place where such things aren't normally done he attracts my attention. Am I to ignore this? I think not. I assign him to a category. What category is my decision.

Not quite. I thought you had some interest in having a valid position and not just making derogatory statements about people who disagree with you.

If you have any interest in discussing the actual issue and dealing with people's real motives (rather than what you just assume, despite being told otherwise, are their motives) we can do that. If instead, you're "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with anything that doesn't fit my comfortable world view" then, yeah, it's time to end this.

Further up in this thread, or possibly in another thread I gave my reasons for disliking OC in places where OC is not common. Basically these echo the thoughts of those that say "you're scaring people", or "you're giving ammo to the rabid anti's" and the "you're giving up tactial advantage" arguments. There are others too but that covers several bases. I've discussed motives with others before. I'm sorry, but I remain convinced that OC in a non standard OC area is a bad idea. I'm not going to try to stop anyone, except by argument in places like this. Which is the proper forum. I think they are doing more harm than good.

I ask you to think of it this way: is there any way anyone could convince you that owning a firearm is wrong? Does this make you closed minded or unwilling to listen to reason? It does not. It just means your mind is made up. As mine is on where OC is kosher and where it is not.

Dashunde
May 11, 2011, 10:34 PM
Ugh... again, this one is still trudging along powered by literary semantics and endless philosophical wordsmithing.
State your own opinions on the subject, stop toiling around with other peoples words without any additional point to make.
Tired. :barf:

Yes, I think OC should be legal.
It should be done in a polite manner, in the right environment, with the right motives.
And dont fling any more crap about who am I to say whats polite, where is the right environment and who picks the motives - We're all American's with the same basic standards of decency and common sense - find a better argument, to pick that nit puts you on the fringe.

OC is not a public enlightenment tool, the gun is the tool, its your tool to defend yourself with, if you think showing it off will sway people into thinking its all A-OK then your probably the tool.

I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.
I can imagine many reasons to OC including hiking, riding, working, sweating, or patrolling just to name a few... but none of them involve going out to dinner or to a kids recital.

WhiskeyTango
May 11, 2011, 11:42 PM
Naa. That may be their "reason", but its a lousy one thats far more likely to generate a negative response than positive.
Sitting in Olive Garden with a CZ97 strapped on in plain sight? Oh that'll desensitize them alright, just enough to vote against the "crazy gun people" the next time CC is challenged.


Actually, you can't OC at an Olive Garden because they serve alcohol at the bar, you can't CC there for the same reason. Most of us that OC pay very close attention to the laws in our State. (this next comment is not a jeer to CCer's!) I can't say I see the same trend with CCer's. I all to often have to educate a CC permit holder on where he?she can legally carry a gun, most seem to think that because they have the CCW, they can carry anywhere they please.

Ringolevio
May 11, 2011, 11:46 PM
Lawnboy, I just have to say that you make a lot of sense. Your arguments are cogent and informed by logic and by thinking through all the angles of an issue. And you call 'em as you see 'em.

You're not the only one here about which that can be said.

But I have to particularly admire your patience in continuing to try to reach, with a logical, cogent argument, someone who will probably never "get it", and who chooses to take it personally.

I couldn't begin to muster that kind of patience. You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

WhiskeyTango
May 12, 2011, 12:04 AM
Civilians who OC in places where OC is abnormal are attention hogs (again, my opinion). I judge them the exact same way I judge people with unnaturally colored hair, multiple piercings, excessive tattoos, neon colored cars and other "hey look at me" displays.

I support the right to OC. I also support discretion. Legal and right are not the same thing. The law decides legal. I decide right. And so do you.

I respect your opinion, as I too, judge excessive tattoo's ( though I have several) piercings, hair, dress and the like, but I'll ask you the same question I asked some posts' back. What am I supposed to do? I can't afford to get my CCW back right now, my wife is sick and we have bills to pay. A CCW cost almost $400 here in Colorado, and I just plain can't do it. So once again, should I not be allowed to protect myself just because I'm in a urban/suburban environment? I make sound judgment calls, like not carrying in chucky cheeses, as I stated before, and when I can't I have a hand built skinner in a kydex sheath on my belt, but am I supposed to carry a knife instead of a gun all the time because I can't afford to pay the ridiculous fees involved in obtaining a permit to carry a gun I should already be allowed to carry anyway? I understand you painting OCer's as attention hogs, undoubtedly most are, but some of us are just protecting ourselves in a messed up crazy world anyway we can.

Dashunde
May 12, 2011, 04:30 AM
you can't OC at an Olive Garden because they serve alcohol at the bar, you can't CC there for the same reason.

In MO you can carry in any "bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food."

We're good to go in a resturant/bar, and so are people in Colorado according to this (http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs/alcohol-marijuana-firearms-prohibitions).
Your Colorado CC permit fees should be $105.

dburkhead
May 12, 2011, 05:59 AM
Further up in this thread, or possibly in another thread I gave my reasons for disliking OC in places where OC is not common. Basically these echo the thoughts of those that say "you're scaring people", or "you're giving ammo to the rabid anti's" and the "you're giving up tactial advantage" arguments. There are others too but that covers several bases. I've discussed motives with others before. I'm sorry, but I remain convinced that OC in a non standard OC area is a bad idea. I'm not going to try to stop anyone, except by argument in places like this. Which is the proper forum. I think they are doing more harm than good.

That you are convinced of this stuff has nothing to do with the motives of others. That someone disagrees about these issues does not make them a "poser or wannabe." Nor does it make them an "attention hog."

It is that to which I have objected, not that you disagree on the other items.

You're doing the same thing the antis do when they claim that you're a wannabe "rambo" for carrying at all.

dburkhead
May 12, 2011, 06:06 AM
State your own opinions on the subject, stop toiling around with other peoples words without any additional point to make.

Refuting nonsense "points" ("they'll target you for the gun" Yeah, it may happen, but available evidence indicates it's so rare as to be a non-issue) is making a point.

I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.


And I think your statement above does not hold up to actual evidence. The "scrutiny" is mainly repetition of a bunch of assumptions, asserted but not actually supported by evidence.

dburkhead
May 12, 2011, 06:11 AM
But I have to particularly admire your patience in continuing to try to reach, with a logical, cogent argument, someone who will probably never "get it", and who chooses to take it personally.

I'd like to say that this is the first time that I've seen proof by repeated assertion and personal opinions masquerading as evidence called "logical, cogent argument." I'd like to say it, but that would be wrong.

And when someone calls everyone who disagrees with him a "poser," a "wannabe," and an "attention hog" what's not to take personally?

Oh, yes, we can also add name calling as something being put forward as "logical, cogent argument."

Well, whatever works for you.

dean1818
May 12, 2011, 06:16 AM
Amen Brother!

"It should be done in a polite manner, in the right environment, with the right motives.
And dont fling any more crap about who am I to say whats polite, where is the right environment and who picks the motives - We're all American's with the same basic standards of decency and common sense - find a better argument, to pick that nit puts you on the fringe.

OC is not a public enlightenment tool, the gun is the tool, its your tool to defend yourself with, if you think showing it off will sway people into thinking its all A-OK then your probably the tool.

I think OC is silly in a suburban/urban environment, is tactically dumbfounding and fails all critical self-defense scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.
I can imagine many reasons to OC including hiking, riding, working, sweating, or patrolling just to name a few... but none of them involve going out to dinner or to a kids recital"

Eghad
May 12, 2011, 07:25 AM
I would not open carry because if I am in a place where someone is going to rob it with a firearm and sees me with a gun I just became a priority target. On the other hand the guy may decide to leave. Some of the criminals today are pretty bold folks so if the guy decided to stay I would be a priority target and it would nullify any advantage I might have if he does not know who is carrying a concealed weapon.

MLeake
May 12, 2011, 07:27 AM
Reiterating an earlier point: I generally have no use for Open Carry. I have even less for laws that make OC illegal. Call me a Libertarian, but I'd really prefer the government do a lot less telling people what to do, in every facet of life.

LordTio3
May 12, 2011, 08:11 AM
Okay... there is a very convoluted argument going on here between dburkhead and lawnboy. I hesitate to "take a side" but would like to offer maybe some new perspective. From what I've read, you both believe the same thing: Open Carry by self-indulgent weiners in inappropriate and intentionally provocative areas is a bad thing. Responsible gun owners who sometimes Open Carry due to convenience, time constraints, or comfort in an appropriate environment are just fine, as long as you accept that you may have to deal (patiently and politely) with the occasional inquiry about the legality of your actions from gun-rights-ignorant civillians.

I think we can all agree on this.

The argument comes when dburkhead took offense to lawnboy's (admittedly brash) generalization about those self-indulgent weiners in a fashion reminiscent of the Supreme Court's: "I know it when I see it." The offense that was taken is the root of the argument. You agree on the central issue. I have to lean more toward lawnboy for the simple fact that he seems more prone to calm, self-representative introspection and checks his emotion at the door. Emotion and reason aren't allies. I think if the "offended" tone were dropped, we can all just sit and agree about what we agree about...

#1 Open Carrier...
http://polizeros.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/opencarry-nevada.jpg
http://breakthematrix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/BeachGunOpenCarry.jpg
D-Bags? Probably. Looking for attention? Most likely. Most likely response to inquiries about why he's carrying a gun? "It's legal! I have a permit! Accomodate me or suffer penalty of LAW!"

We can agree that these suck; and certainly aren't who we'd like representing our community as a whole.

#2 Open Carrier...
http://www.opposingviews.com/attachments/0005/0928/Opencarry.org1.jpg?1274391607
http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picnic1.jpg
Outside at a barbecue. Nice weapon in a nice holster. I'm not worried about any of these guys. Seems appropriate. Also hiking, camping, hunting, going shopping for ammo/supplies/food beforehand.

Personally, I feel that the greatest benefit that the legalization of open carry has, is specifically erasing the discretionary lines of "brandishing" laws and cases. As long as the gun doesn't leave the holster, it's not brandishing. No matter if you slipped and exposed it or not. No more horror stories about reaching for something on the Wal-Mart shelf and having the cops called.

And argue as you will about tactics, statistics, and practicality of open carry; but open carriers and open carry advocates have done a whole heck of a lot for all of our gun rights over the last several years in terms of getting the numbers, being relevant and present, and getting the message out in a respectful manner (mostly). The guys over at OpenCarry.org are awesome.

~LT

C0untZer0
May 12, 2011, 11:50 AM
I am worried about the proposed federal legislation that is going to make having a mullet a mandatory prerequisite for OC.

Capt Charlie
May 12, 2011, 12:08 PM
OC is a subject that's been beat to death here over the years, and for whatever reason, almost all of them descended into bickering and name-calling.

This one's no exception, and at 186 posts, it's outlived its usefulness anyhow.

Closed, but my thanks to those of you that tried to keep this civil and on target.