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waymore
April 22, 2011, 11:40 AM
I just watched this video which made sick. Seeing this made me wonder what this girl could have done to protect herself (mace,taser,gun). or was there anything she could have done at all to prevent this violent attack.

second question is what rights do bystanders have to help her out. What would you have done if you were witness to this?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048

gearhounds
April 22, 2011, 11:51 AM
Once I broke up the initial fight, and called the local law, I would have stood by the victim until they arrived, and detained whoever I could have safely. If the 2 assaulters returned, I would have warned them off, and if that didn't keep them from attacking, I would have no qualms whatsoever using force to make it happen. A shove, arm bar to a face plant, whatever was necessary.

Like McDonald's, I believe in giving the customer what they order

Duckkkkk
April 22, 2011, 12:12 PM
Completely infuriating and sickening.

diverrob
April 22, 2011, 12:41 PM
I was about to post about this myself.. thanks.
Though no weapons (other than fists and feet) were used, this apparently resulted in serious bodily injury (I fear the siezure indicated that the victim sustained brain injury). Legally, in many/most states, imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death justifies use of deadly force. However, if one were to intervene using a firearm, thus preventing this serious injury from ever occurring, I can well see the third-party defender acting on behalf of the victim who was unable to defend herself, being charged, prosecuted and possibly being convicted of homicide or attempted homicide. I don't think I could stand by and left a tragedy like this happen. What would then happen to me? I fear that I already know the answer, it is disturbing to contemplate...
I am a smallish male in my 50's, not a fighter, and perhaps I could overcome two unarmed females attacking another, if I really let-loose, so maybe that would be a much safer tactic, legally speaking... Three or more, I don't think I would be successful without employing a weapon..

waymore
April 22, 2011, 12:44 PM
yeah duckkkk I saw this too early in the day. it got my blood boiling. it's horrible how the 2 employes sit there laughing at this brutal attack without helping the poor girl. then as the girl is seizing on the floor the guy tells them to get out of there before the cops come to help them avoid consequences.

Duckkkkk
April 22, 2011, 12:52 PM
yeah duckkkk I saw this too early in the day. it got my blood boiling. it's horrible how the 2 employes sit there laughing at this brutal attack without helping the poor girl. then as the girl is seizing on the floor the guy tells them to get out of there before the cops come to help them avoid consequences.


I've been wondering if I should write Micky D's to express my disgust at their employee's behavior or not.

mrgoodwrench76
April 22, 2011, 12:53 PM
I guess McDonalds was full of cowards that day, employee's included. How anyone could stand by and watch while a human being is beaten to the point of seizures is sickening. I do hope the victim recovered from her injuries and sues McDonalds for all she can. Such a lack of reguard for human life.

Alaska444
April 22, 2011, 01:09 PM
Sickening!!! I would have intervened, and if the two black girls persisted, I would have knocked them out cold.

I hope that they sue the McDonalds in question.

45Gunner
April 22, 2011, 01:13 PM
Unbelievable!!! This shows what this country is coming to....a bunch of animals with no regard for human life and the McDonald's employees who didn't help because there was no button on their cash register to show what to do...all of them, the bottom of the food chain.

I know if I were there I would have intervened with all I had in me for physical force. Of course it wouldn't take long before I was accused of attacking defensive little girls who were only having fun...they are really good girls so misunderstood....freaking vermin that they are. How people can stand by and witness this is beyond comprehension. McDonald's should be sued on the grounds they hire sub-humans and are not capable of serving the human public.

I hope that poor girl survives without serious injury. One does not have to go looking for trouble as it certainly seems to have a way of finding us. I, for one, will not idly stand by and watch another human being get beaten unless of course it was one of those poor excuses for a human that causes harm to others for no apparent reason. For that, I will stand and cheer.

This video leaves me completely outraged and appalled.

kazanski612
April 22, 2011, 01:53 PM
I agree - this makes me physically sick.

We have no clue what happened prior to the start of the video, nor how any of this started. But regardless of who the initial aggressor was, I'll be darned if I'll let anyone get attacked and killed in front of me or my family without at least trying to do something.

If you've ever watched the show "I Survived..." a common theme is how often horrible things happen without anyone nearby so much as calling the cops. Truly sickening.

4runnerman
April 22, 2011, 01:54 PM
AAAGGGHHHHH- I have no issues with stopping something like that. Very forcefully if needed. I don't consider these two ladies so i guess a good wack alone side the head would (to me) not be considered hitting a lady. Im a shamed to say i would not want t gun,I would rather inflict same pain back with my hands.. God i hate even thinking that bad,butttt:mad:

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 01:55 PM
the guys telling them to leave before the cops get there should be charged as accessories.

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 01:56 PM
AAAGGGHHHHH- I have no issues with stopping something like that. Very forcefully if needed. I don't consider these two ladies so i guess a good wack alone side the head would (to me) not be considered hitting a lady. Im a shamed to say i would not want t gun,I would rather inflict same pain back with my hands.. God i hate even thinking that bad,butttt

those were NOT ladies so I wouldn't feel bad at all about knocking them the hell out if I had to.

mnero
April 22, 2011, 01:56 PM
Since it would be easy to argue that the attackers intent was to kill the girl, you could have shot them dead, even in MD. I think even I would have intervened, no I know would have. What is going on with America; where did it all go wrong? Where did we lose it all?

hnl.flyboy
April 22, 2011, 02:01 PM
Sickening!! I know I may get into a lot of trouble for intervening, but I was raised to have a big heart. I'm sure that will get me into trouble someday, but I just can't stand by and watch someone get beaten. I can understand just standing there watching for the first 10-15 seconds as the shock hits me and the reality sets in, but there's no way I'd stand and watch for more than that.

Duckkkkk
April 22, 2011, 02:03 PM
where did it all go wrong? Where did we lose it all?


It started about 5 years a go with the "thug" videos, and the "everyone is entitled to all they can get" mentality. A lot are now just looking to see how they can get over and get a do nothing payout.

I've been on the front line of viewing societies changes for the last 35 years, and it's not pretty. But there is still good out there, you just have to keep remembering that fact.

stonewall50
April 22, 2011, 02:09 PM
Legally could have killed the skanks. I probaly would have just produced my gun and said, "Go ahead. Make my day."

waymore
April 22, 2011, 02:11 PM
Quote:
yeah duckkkk I saw this too early in the day. it got my blood boiling. it's horrible how the 2 employes sit there laughing at this brutal attack without helping the poor girl. then as the girl is seizing on the floor the guy tells them to get out of there before the cops come to help them avoid consequences.

I've been wondering if I should write Micky D's to express my disgust at their employee's behavior or not.


http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/contact_us/social_responsibility/social_responsibility.html

yeah I took a second to let them know how I feel about their caliber of employees and let them know I will no longer patronize their establishment until they publicly acknowledge what they are doing about this.

hnl.flyboy
April 22, 2011, 02:31 PM
http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/contact_us/social_responsibility/social_responsibility.html

yeah I took a second to let them know how I feel about their caliber of employees and let them know I will no longer patronize their establishment until they publicly acknowledge what they are doing about this.

I spent a couple minutes to let them know what I thought also. I told him the last time I went to their store was 15 hours ago, that my fatass gives them a fair amount of business, and that I won't give them another dime until I hear about what's being done to these employees.

He said they've received MANY calls about the video already. He sounded pretty embarrassed as soon as I mentioned the "liveleak" video. At least there's no way this can be ignored.

markj
April 22, 2011, 02:33 PM
Got my butt kicked in a mickey Ds, a gal was working the reg and an older gent was upset over her not knowing how much his meal was. He was 6 ft 5 and built good. A guy behind the grill offered to help her out the guy said some racial stuff towards the kid, I said something to my friend next to me the guy heard and turned to me. He hit me wit hthe tray and that coffee is really hot. I took him to ground and restrained him the cops came and took him away, I got a free meal....

I always will stand up to crap such as this. and I can stop a person fast, was a bouncer for a long time in a real rough place in South Omaha.

Them employees were on the same side as the two gals, BTDT had a whole group jump on me when I dropped one of them was getting unruly. Coulda died right there if my buds hadnt been close. Never went outside the bar after that.

CLC
April 22, 2011, 02:47 PM
Does anyone know how the girl is doing! Is she ok!

jhenry
April 22, 2011, 02:47 PM
It all began at the dawn of time. It is a common issue now, and in particular areas, because people refuse to get involved in smaller issues. Thugs like this have no show worthless absent fathers, and skank mothers for the most part. They run wild and little things get looked over by folks who rationalize away their abdication of appropriate behavior. They come to believe, quite rightly, that they can do what they want and no one will so much as say stop it, let alone drop a dime. It is incrementalismm at it's logical extension. It is the broken window syndrome (look it up, I am too lazy to explain right now). Worthless parents with a glamorization of criminal conduct in the media to suck dollars out of poor pockets, coupled with folks who have no qualms about turning a blind eye. This is what you get. There is no sin by degree. Sometimes it is just right and wrong. You are either going to conduct your life in such a manner as to improve the common situation, or you are not. If not, you are a contributer to this type of stuff. It is really just that simple.

Crazy88Fingers
April 22, 2011, 03:09 PM
those were NOT ladies so I wouldn't feel bad at all about knocking them the hell out if I had to.

Agreed. If they're going to act like animals, then they're going to be treated like animals.

I can't bring myself to watch the whole video, and find it incredible that someone would just stand there and record the whole thing. But it seems like deadly force would have been excessive. A few square punches to the face might have settled these broads down. I see a few sturdy-looking chairs sitting around waiting to be used too.

And here in Florida, you're legally allowed to step in and defend another as you would defend yourself. "Stand in their shoes", as they say.

newshooter1992
April 22, 2011, 03:13 PM
So if someone were to step in and help would they get in trouble or would they be protected by the good semaritan law?

As everyone has said before it is sickening and I would not stand by and watch this happen.

Crazy88Fingers
April 22, 2011, 03:19 PM
I don't think the Good Samaritan Law applies to defensive situations like this. It would depend on your state/local laws.

And I would hope you would have a hard time finding a jury that would convict you for using reasonable means to help out a fellow human being. There's always hope...

Webleymkv
April 22, 2011, 03:41 PM
No question about it, I'd have drawn my gun. A beating of that severity, particularly with the disparity of force (two against one) is quite capable of causing permanent disability or death (as evidenced by the girl having a seizure).

I am legally justified, in my state, in bringing deadly force to bear in defense of another and even if I wasn't, I couldn't live with myself if I just stood there and let someone get beaten to death without doing anything. At best, the two attackers would have gotten a verbal warning and if that did not stop them, either bullets or a pistol whip would have followed.

As to trying to detain the attackers, I would let them go if they chose to. I'm not a cop and "catching the bad guys" is not my job. My only concern in such a situation would have been stopping the attack.

I sincerely hope that the girl who was beaten is OK and I also sincerely hope that the two attackers get thrown into some deep, dark hole of a prison with a bunch of other animals just like them for a very, very long time.

napg19
April 22, 2011, 03:44 PM
Funny, I made a comment once and had the p****d off word blanked out by the staff. But put a video on with full M F, S**t D**M, I guess this is ok for embassators to the world. Think this will really hurt G. Sorres's feelings?

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 03:49 PM
A few square punches to the face might have settled these broads down.

99% of the time, men are stronger than women. (maybe a few rare cases such as female body builders. yuk)

I do not see this situation as one that would need deadly force. I would have intervened and attempted to ward the savages off of their victim but if they came at me, I would deliver a blow to the first one that she would not get up from and ask the second one if she still wanted to try.

I would only draw if they pulled out a knife or something and came at me. Otherwise, I don't think it would be any problem taking these two out by hand.

ClayInTx
April 22, 2011, 04:26 PM
The video showed us Side One.

That doesn't make what happened to be right, but...

I wonder about Side Two.

irish52084
April 22, 2011, 04:32 PM
This behavior is deplorable. I'm with just about everyone here that I would have intervened. I'm a large guy and well trained when it comes to physical encounters and I wouldn't have hesitated to level those 2 women. I can tell you now, those two have never been tossed around like I could have and they would not have fled the scene.

I understand letting 2 people settle a dispute physically, but when it becomes a 2 on 1 mauling you have to step in. This is how those 2 women should have been treated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkQwyfCn6A

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 04:35 PM
Just found this

http://smu-humaneye.blogspot.com/2011/04/savage-beating-of-transgender-woman.html

It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.

kinggabby
April 22, 2011, 04:44 PM
I think it is sad that someone just stood there video taping it instead of helping . I mean if that girl was to die it would be his fault to cause he did not help either. He just got some great footage. Forgive me but girls or no girls someone should have knocked those girls out.

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 04:47 PM
Forgive me but girls or no girls someone should have knocked those girls out.

quoted for truth

WhiskeyTango
April 22, 2011, 04:51 PM
I too was appauled watching this video. It's very easy to talk big in these what if senarios, the old "if I was there I would have..." line, but I belive everyone who has posted in this instance. I would not hesitate to knock both of those girls on their *ss, and if that didn't work I most deffinately would have held them at gun point untill the law got there. There is no question this poor girls life was in danger, and though the girls had no weapons, I think drawing on them and detaining them would be justified. I also agree that the boy that told the girls to get out of there before the law got there should be punished. It's sad that the old lady, god bless her, had the biggest set of stones in this situation.

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
Yes, props to the older lady who stepped up. She had bigger balls than all the "men" present during this travesty.

FireForged
April 22, 2011, 05:04 PM
In my laymans uneducated opinion, I think It would be difficult to win a lawsuit again McD on the grounds that the employees didnt put themselves in harms way. Purhaps if they made no attempt to call authorities or ems, that may be different. I have not seen the video or read the complete article so I cant really comment on anything specific.

ClayInTx
April 22, 2011, 05:05 PM
Quote from my previous post:

The video showed us Side One.

That doesn't make what happened to be right, but...

I wonder about Side Two.


Check out the link posted, above, by guitars and guns.

Now that we’ve seen Side One and got the gritty on Side Two, I wonder if there isn’t a Side Three from back in the Ladies Restroom.

WhiskeyTango
April 22, 2011, 05:16 PM
As to trying to detain the attackers, I would let them go if they chose to. I'm not a cop and "catching the bad guys" is not my job. My only concern in such a situation would have been stopping the attack.

As soon as you step in to help it becomes your job, a citizens arrest is 100% legal, and I for one would not be able to sleep knowing I let these two go, possibly never to be caught and charged. Letting them go would just teach them that this kind of animal behavior is ok, and that they got away with it once, they could do it again. I wear a 550 paracord bracelet everywhere I go, this would have been the perfect use for it, knocking these to out cold and tying their hands behind their backs until law enforcement arrived.

Webleymkv
April 22, 2011, 05:24 PM
I do not see this situation as one that would need deadly force. I would have intervened and attempted to ward the savages off of their victim but if they came at me, I would deliver a blow to the first one that she would not get up from and ask the second one if she still wanted to try.

I would only draw if they pulled out a knife or something and came at me. Otherwise, I don't think it would be any problem taking these two out by hand.

I respectfully disagree. The fact that the two women (and I use that term very loosely here) kept coming back demonstrates to be that this wasn't about proving a point or "teaching a lesson" but was an active attempt to kill, or at very least seriously injure the woman who was beaten. Because of this, I think the condition of "fear of death or grave bodily injury" would be fairly easily met and would, in my state at least, justify lethal force.

Also, a "fair fight" is something of sports and heroic fiction. Just because the two "women" in the video did not have any visible weapons, that does not mean that none were present. Getting a stabbed or shot in the middle of a fistfight is a very poor way to learn that someone else has a weapon. I will take no chances with two-legged animals and these two certainly meet that description.

As I said before, I'd shout a very loud verbal warning before shooting or pistol-whipping, but I'm not getting involved before I've got a weapon in my hand.

publius
April 22, 2011, 05:28 PM
I would call 911 then proceed with providing a defence. Would have dealt with them just as I would any other dangerous animals. I would have deployed pepper spray if I had it. If not, a few swings of the closest chair would probibly suffice. Hand to hand would be the next option, but I wouldn't want to be near these people, much less touch them. If they presented any form of weapon or if the male, who seemed sympathetic to their "cause" got involved I may draw my weapon. Do anything to get the victim to my car and the hospital asap.

C Philip
April 22, 2011, 05:38 PM
Would not have felt the need to draw my gun, unless the two attackers produced a weapon, but a solid punch to the face should calm them down a bit. A good reason to also carry something like pepper spray along with your handgun. I hope they go to jail for a long time.

guitars and guns
April 22, 2011, 05:42 PM
I respectfully disagree. The fact that the two women (and I use that term very loosely here) kept coming back demonstrates to be that this wasn't about proving a point or "teaching a lesson" but was an active attempt to kill, or at very least seriously injure the woman who was beaten. Because of this, I think the condition of "fear of death or grave bodily injury" would be fairly easily met and would, in my state at least, justify lethal force.

Also, a "fair fight" is something of sports and heroic fiction. Just because the two "women" in the video did not have any visible weapons, that does not mean that none were present. Getting a stabbed or shot in the middle of a fistfight is a very poor way to learn that someone else has a weapon. I will take no chances with two-legged animals and these two certainly meet that description.

As I said before, I'd shout a very loud verbal warning before shooting or pistol-whipping, but I'm not getting involved before I've got a weapon in my hand.

You make a very valid point and something to consider BUT.....

what if you brandished your weapon, gave verbal warning and they still came at you bearing no weapons at all? do you shoot them?

I guess it all depends widely on the laws of the state you are in.

I am going to class to get my CCW on the 30th and should learn the laws of TX there (I plan on asking LOTS of questions and studying on my own as well), but situations like this intrigue me. that's why I suggested hand to hand at first and only drawing (and maybe using) a firearm only if completely necessary to avoid legal repercussions.

Casimer
April 22, 2011, 05:51 PM
It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.

The police are still reporting the victim as female. The claim that she is a he comes from the guy who shot the video, who's no longer commenting.

Glenn Dee
April 22, 2011, 06:10 PM
Absent the use of deadly force against the victim I probably wouldnt have gone to the gun. More likely I would have placed my body over the victim and taken the beating in order to protect her. It may have frustrated the perpetrators enough to leave... And I've taken a few beatings in my time... I'm not as fragile as the female victim.

Glenn

Wildalaska
April 22, 2011, 06:14 PM
So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound

WildcuriousAlaska ™©2002-2011

WhiskeyTango
April 22, 2011, 06:27 PM
Just found this while looking to see if there was a law in Colorado requiring someone to step in and help having been a witness to a crime such as this. I was unable to find anything to that effect, but, found this interesting...

It is illegal to assist a fugitive in any way. Accessory to Crime, CRS 18-8-105 Colorado Law states: "A person is an accessory to a crime if, with intent to hinder, delay or PREVENT the discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of another for the commission of a crime, he renders assistance to such person." This crime can be up to a Class 4 FELONY, punishable by up to 8 years in prison and/or a fine up to $500,000.00!
Taken from:
http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=3438

So the dip***t that told the girls to get out of there before the cops got there was preventing the discovery of these two worthless individuals, therefor committing a crime himself. I would hope that MD has the same kind of law and that this punk will be prosecuted.

C Philip
April 22, 2011, 06:30 PM
So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest poundGives the opportunity to discuss what levels of force may have been appropriate and the legal implications thereof.

WhiskeyTango
April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM
Well actually Alaska, most of us were discussing whether or not it would have been appropriate to produce a gun in defense of the victim, and whether state laws would have allowed it, or the use of deadly force. The chest pounding going on is in fact answering the original question of what rights a bystander has if they decided to intervene, and what we would have done had we been there.

cracked91
April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM
message deleted

cracked91
April 22, 2011, 07:13 PM
Laptop messed up last post.

While yesterday, had I watched the scene unfold, I firmly believed I would have just walked in swinging, If I watched it unfold tomorrow, I hope I will think just a little bit more. I doubt these women are strangers to the full strength blow from a larger man, and the one woman probably outweighed me. During my unarmed combat classes it quickly became apparent that 2 vs 1 was a major gamble. Even with it was a man vs women or a very large individual vs smaller ones. Fighting two people at the same time takes a very high level of skill. I have personally found the only way I have been able to come out of this situation on top is by completely incapacitating the weaker of the two opponents as fast as I can (usually if it took me longer than 20 seconds, I was going to lose) so that I can turn my attention and whats left of my strength to the stronger one.

If they decide to fight instead of run when first faced with the prospect of fighting a man, you may be trouble. Women are generally weaker than men, and a full strength blow might not turn your head too much. But this is still a street fight, and a lethal one at this point. That means there is a high probability that when faced with an opponent that has an extreme physical advantage, the women will do things such as scratch (face, eyes, ears - very, very painful) aim attacks at the genital area (your achilles heel), and probably the worst - bite. Even a smaller woman is going to have enough jaw strength to take a large chunk out of you. The killer about this is that a bite can easily transfer things like HIV/AIDS and other STDS (which these women undoubtedly had).

Initially, I think a knock or two to the head would be sufficient, if it did not end there, I believe an armed response would be appropriate. I can not see a scenario where they would continue to kick the girl in the head when they became aware there was a gun pointed at them, but if they did I feel I would be justified in using lethal force. A punch when standing up is one thing, a kick to the head when on the ground is a different arena.

If all I had was a knife (which I often do, due to the fact that my job does not allow for concealed carry), there would be more than fair warning, then lethal force would be applied with a different platform.

skifast
April 22, 2011, 07:42 PM
I believe in helping and I hope I would.

I would add that you need to get both the combatants down and out ASAP. It would not be surprising if the guy with the camera or another thugs came to their defense.

FireForged
April 22, 2011, 07:43 PM
As soon as you step in to help it becomes your job, a citizens arrest is 100% legal, and I for one would not be able to sleep knowing I let these two go, possibly never to be caught and charged. Letting them go would just teach them that this kind of animal behavior is ok, and that they got away with it once, they could do it again. I wear a 550 paracord bracelet everywhere I go, this would have been the perfect use for it, knocking these to out cold and tying their hands behind their backs until law enforcement arrived.

Please quote the statutory language of any State that requires or in some way states that its "your job" as a citizen to restrain/detain a offender.

I realize that many States (like mine) allow for a citizen arrest. I have no issue with that at all. I am just curious to see where a citizen would be required to take someone into custody simply because they stepped in to stop/prevent a crime.

chadstrickland
April 22, 2011, 07:52 PM
I don't know....I would have been going to jail..i don't think I would have shot them but my old spring field 1911 is heavy as heck...I think cracking both those chicks skulls and then I would have thought that camera man had a knive and cracked him to for that comment about putting this on youtube and leave before the cops come comment he made

ice monkey
April 22, 2011, 08:31 PM
Wow, I was trying to find more on this story … only to find there are seemingly a lot of fights in McDonalds. I knew Chucky Cheese was the seine of a lot of mishaps, but …

I guess statistically McDonalds with all the restaurants they have, and the price point of their food, they should have more incidence of violence. I just never thought about it! Gone are the days when you give your kid $5.00 and tell them to pick-up a burger eh!

BTW, I know what I would have liked to do - But it’s hard to say what I would have done. There is just something about folk who seemingly have nothing to lose and act as such. Trash makes getting involved hard to do when you have a life. Would have to know how it all went down.

I do hope the best for the vic.

Capt Charlie
April 22, 2011, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound

Gives the opportunity to discuss what levels of force may have been appropriate and the legal implications thereof.

Problem is, except for a few, that just isn't happening.

Given the profanity in the vid, and a few attempts at same in the thread, plus a few racial references, this is more noise than signal, and this just isn't TFL material.

Closed.