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Cowboy Preacher
June 9, 2000, 08:43 PM
Is Judo really a effevtive form of combat?

SB
June 10, 2000, 01:57 AM
There is much more to the answer than just a simple "yes" or "no". For example, quality of the instructor, goal of both the instructor and student, and even styles of Judo factor in the equation.

But a general answer is, "Yes, it can be." If self defense is your primary objective, I recommend tracking down a Kodokan styled dojo.

$.02

[This message has been edited by SB (edited June 10, 2000).]

crobrun
June 10, 2000, 01:18 PM
Cowboy preacher
A good place to research this is http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/ And check out the underground forum, judo section (among others)
My <$.02 Judo has the potential to be a good self defense art, depending on your instructor. If S/he is teaching sport judo, you can do better, but even sport judo isn't worthless.

------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
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She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
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bad Kiki! No karaoke in the house!
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You will be assimilated. Resistance is E/I

[This message has been edited by crobrun (edited June 10, 2000).]

beastman
June 10, 2000, 02:11 PM
I have been involved with learning Aikido for some time. It is a decendant of Judo. I know from one of our white-belt classmates that it is useful. He was attacked by two guys who pepper-sprayed him and then grabbed him. When he was grabbed he threw the first attacker to the ground. Being thrown to the ground, when the ground is a concrete sidewalk, can be a serious thing. The other attacker came at him with the pepper spray again and the student grabbed his wrist, broke it, and put him on the ground as well.

The moves used in the above defense were simple, white-belt level moves. The key is that the martial art gives you SOMETHING to draw upon mentally, it gives more calmness and deliberateness of action. I believe ANY martial art will help in these key areas. The form of the art you should use depends on your size and strength. I chose Aikido because it was perfect for my wife's small size. Again, any art gives you a mental edge.

Just my .02

rms/pa
June 10, 2000, 02:36 PM
is judo an effective form of combat?

yes , no and maybe.

what it does do is teach you to be able to think/react when things get up close and personal.
it teaches you how to fall.(a very good thing)
what almost any martial art does, is make you realize you can do lots more than you thought you could in a bad situation.

if the art(and compatible teacher) availible is judo, by all means take it.
it is one of the few full speed full contact martial arts.

rms/pa

chokeu2
June 10, 2000, 07:50 PM
Judo can be a great art! But it is best at getting people to the ground. Not at finishing the job, or what to do if you are taken down.

As a little background, since I am new here. I currently pretty much live to train, and have for a long time. I currently practice brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, and Kali. (It helps that I am on staff at a very large fight school).

Judo works well when combined with a striking art. Like the deadliest one in the world, Muay Thai. That is why I practice it. Or it would work good with a strictly combative/warrior art like Kali. That is stricly about killing your opponent in short order. Brazilian JJ is awesome for taking care of an opponent while on the ground. You would learn how to take them down. What to do when taken down. And what to do while on the ground. Like choke, joint lock, etc...

The art you choose depends on what style appeals to you. And more importantly what style works for you. I could go on at very great length! Not to slam traditional martial arts, like Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan Karate, but they will not teach you how to survive in a street or combat situation. THey are excellent for learning the science of the martial arts. They were created in a time when people fought with a lot of restrictions.

What are your interests. I have been into the combative arts on and off for the better part of 17 years. And I work within them now. Do you want to learn devastating punching and kicking? Do you want to learn chokes and joint locks that are very debilitating? Do you want to learn NASTY blade techiques? I would love to speak at length with you on this. Because if you are considering the martial arts, combative skills game, you need to really evaluate what you want.

Having said all of that. Judo is a GREAT art. Not a total self defense package. Not many arts are. But there are those that are close. Judo is the grandfather to most of the grappling arts. so you know something is good about it!

BTW, where are you located? I can most likely help you find a school anywhere.

Oh yeah, someone mentioned mixedmartialarts.com. I am all over that board. I am one of the original members. But my username is different there. Seems the admins like it, so they got it. Imagine that! My user name there is ov1. I would advise you to take the good gentlemans advice, and check that site out. It is pretty good for getting in touch with martial artists and getting good advice. Once you get by all the children chanting the my fighter can beat up your fighter mantra.

Do please contact me, if you would like to discuss the arts! I love talkin' about scrappin'! :D


[This message has been edited by chokeu2 (edited June 10, 2000).]

chokeu2
June 10, 2000, 07:50 PM
sorry for the double post. admins, would you delete is please?

[This message has been edited by chokeu2 (edited June 10, 2000).]

Fadingbreed40
June 10, 2000, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowboy Preacher:
Is Judo really a effevtive form of combat?[/quote]

Yes, Judo (True Kodakon)is highly effective but is only a facet of combat. Although I hold the rank of 1st Dan in a Traditional style of karate, prior years of "street fights" taught me that one must be well rounded and well versed in many facets of combat. More often than not, one on one altercations are usually taken to the ground this is where Judo, wrestling or any other grappling discipline will definantly be to your advantage. Should you, however, have the misfortune of facing two or more attackers, you may not want to go to the ground. You should be proficient with your hands, elbows, feet, knees and most importantly be able to run fast. I would study any type of grappling form (I studied Judo) and study any type of striking art to include boxing. Take from all these that will work for you and disgard what doesn't. That has been said many times but it is tried and true.

[This message has been edited by Fadingbreed40 (edited June 10, 2000).]

TaxPhd
June 11, 2000, 09:31 AM
chokeu2,

Where in Atlanta (and when) do you train?

chokeu2
June 11, 2000, 07:04 PM
Taxphd, I train at the Obake Fight School, and am on staff at the same. How about you?

If you are law enforcement you should really look into brazilian JJ, or Kali. Or better yet, combine the two. Judo does have chokes, but not to the extent and effectivness of BJJ. As a matter of fact, at my school we are going to be putting a law enforcement program together. It will consist of BJJ, and Kali predominently. We are in the final phases of bringing a man from Brazil by the name of Ricardo Murgel to teach with us. Ricardo is one of the original BJJ black belts. He has been at it for 45 years. He is also the lead trainer for the brazilian police. And he is the brazilian state quick draw pistol champ.

Aikido is good when you have been at it for a long time. And it is still based on a lot of tradition. Not something that is going to help you on the street.

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Open Mind, Closed Fist

Skorzeny
June 12, 2000, 03:44 PM
One of the things that Judo (or BJJ) offers is Randori.

Martial arts are taught in one of two ways: Kata (form) and Randori (free-sparring).

Kata is important for learning techniques and perfecting them. Randori is important for developing the ability to execute the techniques on a fully resisting opponent.

To simplify somewhat grossly, Judo emphasizes throws and pins more while BJJ emphasizes ground positions and submissions. Either would make an excellent self-defense martial art (provided that the Judo school is a self-defense oriented one rather than an Olympic competition style one).

Systems like Aikido can be useful particularly for attribute developments, but their effectiveness is, in general, limited by the fact that they are trained in Kata form only.

My two bits.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

TaxPhd
June 14, 2000, 10:10 AM
chokeu2,

I've been playing Judo on and off for most of my life. Most recently at the Atlanta Judo Academy. Good bunch of people, but very sport oriented (Leo White, multiple time U.S. champion, is the head instructor there).

Where is Obake located, and when do you hold classes?

chokeu2
June 14, 2000, 02:59 PM
Obake is at 5956 Roswell Road. Which is on the corner of Roswell and Hammond in Sandy Springs.

We have classes seven days a week my friend. We are developing a Judo program also. The gentleman teaching is a former South African champ. He teaches pretty combative stuff.

We are also redesigning our BJJ program. I am working on getting an old school BJJ BB up from Brazil. He is one of the original black belts. AWESOME. BJJ is Tues, Thurs, and Sat. Saturday is a morning class.

We have kali Mon, Weds, and Sunday. Sunday is an afternoon class. This class is headed by an Inasanto and Lucay trained Guru.

And our Thai is Mon, weds, and fri. Taught by the current THAI world middleweight champ, Many Ntoh. He is ranked with Lumpini ratings, not the ISKA crap. And one of only three people to have knockouts with both legs in Lumpini stadium in Thailand.

Our facility is a little over 30,000 square feet. so there is plenty space to train.

If ya wanna come up, hit me with an email! Would love to show you around.

------------------
Open Mind, Closed Fist

crobrun
June 15, 2000, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skorzeny:
One of the things that Judo (or BJJ) offers is Randori.
SNIP

Systems like Aikido can be useful particularly for attribute developments, but their effectiveness is, in general, limited by the fact that they are trained in Kata form only.

My two bits.

Skorzeny
[/quote]

Skorzeny
You have mocked Aikido Once Too Many Times [note dramatic capitalization :D ]. I extend Ki in your general direction!!!

------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
-------------------------------------------------------------------
She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
bad Kiki! No karaoke in the house!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Flynt is right. You guys stink!!!

IronGeek
March 17, 2005, 06:49 PM
I've found judo to be a lifesaver on numerous occasions. Most importantly, I was able to take a good fall in a bad motorcycle accident, walking away with only scrapes & bruises. There have also been a few times when people have tried to grab me and regretted it. I've also done some boxing, but have never needed to strike anyone, as the only times I couldn't avoid a fight were cases when I was grabbed by surprise.

In one case, my assailant tackled me around the knees from behind, but I was able to remain upright by holding onto a city trashcan. I turned around I sent him sprawling onto his back. He shook it off, & was ready for more, but his buddy stopped him with a hand on his chest & a shake of his head. The buddy I was hanging out with that night thinks I'm Jackie Chan now. lol

IG

stephen426
March 17, 2005, 11:08 PM
I think Judo has some applications for self defense but it should be combine with another type of art that incorperates strikes. If you are going one on one in judo match, that is one thing. If you are in a street fight, you can't afford to put a submission hold on a guy unless you want one of his buddies to pound on you.

I did Tae Kwon Do for a few years when I was younger. I feel it is one of the easiest arts to apply even at a low level. Although I like TKD, the proportion of kicks versus punches is too skewed. Some people where I trained only used their arms for blocking. Another thing is that if you end up on the ground and all you know is TKD, you better get up quick or else you're dead meat.

I'd say a combination of these two would be pretty effective in most scenarios. Either that or TKD and Jiu Jitsu.

RCPractitioner
March 18, 2005, 02:36 AM
One of my favorite quotes I saw on this forum once has got to be:

"Never bring your hands to a gunfight" :D

Blind Tree Frog
March 18, 2005, 12:30 PM
I hate threads like this because I tend to adamently disagree with everyone and like to comment on what I feel is wholey inaccurate information being given, but since I'm an *******, here are my 2 cents.

Judo is fine as a self defense style....depending.

Remember every single martial art developed for specific needs and with a certain approach to how a fight is going to play out. For example, the kung fu styles that developed in nothern china focused more on kicks and distance attacks because they had the room to actually use them and it was expected that a fight would start at a distance. The styles that developed in southern china though focus more on punches and short range attacks because they were mainly in cities and didn't have a lot of range to fight from. Judo approaches a fight with the assumption that most all fights will start standing, so if you can control the fight there, you'll win. Brazilian / Jiu Jitsu however goes on the assumption that the fight will end up on the ground, so contol there and you'll win. This is why you tend to see more focus on throws in Judo and more on holds in B/JJ. So first figure out how you want to approach a fight. On a side note, grabbling styles like Judo, JJ, Akido, etc have the added side effect of being more oriented towards causing pain without leaving marks on the victim. Might make defending yourself in court a bit easier.

Continuing, whenever you hear someone say that such and such a style is "the deadliest" or "the most brutal" or anything like that, run quickly and stop listening to them advertise their style. Course, that's my personal opinion and explaining it further would probably lead to the admins threatening to ban me, so I'll leave it like that.

To address Judo vs Jujitsu specifically (since they are most related), there is nothing that they teach in Jujitsu that a Judo school focused on self defense wouldn't teach you, remember, modern Jujitsu is just a branch of Judo (which is just a branch of old school jujistu). A Judo school focused purely on sport would not teach you these things though simply because they wouldn't be usefull in tournaments. As far as one style being better then another.. meh. In controled matches Jujitsu practictioners don't often beat judo practictioners, but this tells us nothing more then who the better fighter was.

IronGeek
March 18, 2005, 01:48 PM
Actually, the school I attended taught only "sport" judo. It included a great deal of chokes & armlocks, which are quite often employed in tournament. I would also argue that judo is very effective on the ground, as well as standing.

Again, I agree that a striking art should round out one's training.Judo & boxing, or maybe some Wing-Chun are a great combo.

IG

Blind Tree Frog
March 18, 2005, 01:59 PM
That's what I forgot to write in my post.

Yeah, learning striking and grappling is good. Judo does have strikes, but they are rarely taught in most schools (as most schools are sport oriented).

But I'm not a fan of the mix martial art styles many people claim are superior. They claim that it strengthens their abilities since the strengths of one style make up for the weaknesses of another, but I think they are just left with a "Jack of all trades, master of none" situation. I prefer to just tell people to focus on just one style at a good school for a while. In time, once you've got that more or less down, if you feel that approach to fighting isn't appropraite to you, try something else at.

I mean, do you go around carrying multiple guns? If you do is it because one is a backup incase the first one is unable to be used (dropped, snatched, jammed, etc) or because you have one gun for this scenario, one gun for this scenario, another for this, etc etc.

KSFreeman
March 18, 2005, 02:39 PM
Certainly. As with anything, finding a good instructor and a group of fellow students insterested in the same thing is key. Focus on old-skul Judo and not necessarily the sport aspect, you'll be fine. :)

If you near choke2U, run, do not walk, run to his school!

Para Bellum
March 18, 2005, 04:45 PM
Judo is the competition-version of Ju-Jutsu. Ju-do means the soft way. Soft because all the nasty and very effective stuff has been left aside to make competition possibe (compete more than once in a lifetime). If you need a combat training go for jiu-jitsu, the modern ju-jutsu. It's the most complete system I know.

Judo is a great sport.

By the way: There is no "bad" system. Their's only a lot of weak fighthers.

U.F.O.
March 18, 2005, 05:11 PM
Here's a little action between two disciplines.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/652/

U.F.O.

Blind Tree Frog
March 18, 2005, 05:24 PM
Judo is the competition-version of Ju-Jutsu. Ju-do means the soft way. Soft because all the nasty and very effective stuff has been left aside to make competition possibe (compete more than once in a lifetime). If you need a combat training go for jiu-jitsu, the modern ju-jutsu. It's the most complete system I know.

That's the first time I've heard anyone say it that way.

-Do and -itsu are two common endings to japanese martial arts. -Do traditionally refers to styles that refine the self while -itsu are referring to styles with a focus on battle.

Judo was developed because the technique that was being used to teach jujitsu was "Send people into battle, if they come back alive, they get promoted" pretty much. Judo came about because it was changed just enough that they could actually teach it in classrooms. Granted, the black belt testing still consisted of sending students into the redlight district and having them pick fights, but overall it was much safer to teach in classes.

The sport aspect came many many years later.

Blind Tree Frog
March 18, 2005, 05:31 PM
The last thread we had on similar matters:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44825&highlight=judo+jujistu


Here's a little action between two disciplines.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/652/
Did he start with the same exact attack 3 times in a row, even though it didn't work the first two times or am I watching this wrong?

4RHeritage
March 19, 2005, 12:42 AM
The only thing I learned from judo of any value was how to fall down without getting hurt. If you want to learn real martial arts for self defense then the hands down winner is Wing Tsun, of the Leung Ting school, he is the deadliest man on the planet. However, this may not be available in your area, so Aikido is a useful alternative. If you want to learn how to survive on the street, without taking years of martials arts, you may want to consider a Jim Wagner course.

Wing Tsun (http://pages.zdnet.com/wingtsun/wingtsunlinks.com/id8.html)

Jim Wagner (http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/)

Para Bellum
March 19, 2005, 05:46 AM
If you have a ccw weapon and just want to get your hands free and 2 meters of distance again, and have no classical martial arts background, Krav Mager Maor might be right for you: Easy to learn and effective.

If you also want to be able to finish a fight and fight on the ground, jiu-jitsu is my recommendation. But this takes time to get good with. If you finally are, you cold be more effective on short ranges with your body than with a gun...

and here's just the standard boiler-plate from my website:

The martial arts can be divided into three fields: Self-Defence, Martial Sports and so-called "Soft" Martial Arts.

Self-Defence need not be graceful, fair or an appropriate subject of competition. It need only be effective and easy to recall. Focussing on real-life situations, self-defence systems need to provide for appropriate and reliable ways for a suprised defendant to protect him/herself without taking risks. Self-defence therefore rather be radical and simple. The best self-defence system I know is http://www.atk.at.

Martial Sports have a totally different aim. Though they mostly originated from real-life combat techniques, they have changed in order to give a forum for fair competition. Sometimes they are as far away from self-defence as olympic fencing is from an ancient swordfight. They give rise to tremendous athletic and acrobatic performance. Such Martial Sports are e.g. TaeKwonDo, Judo, Karate, Wrestling and (Kick-) Boxing.

"Soft" Martial Arts should not be misunderstood. Although they focus on the art as such, they can be very tough. Usually they take very long to be learned and don't provide a forum for competition. E.g. Aikido and Chinese Kung-Fu Styles are usually neither practiced for athletic nor self-defence purposes. However, they can be extremly demanding and effective once one has reached master's skills.

MartinR
March 31, 2005, 02:10 PM
As has been stated before, the instructor is extremely important factor.

However, IMHO Judo can be one of the more effective of the martial arts from the standpoint that you regularly practice against a stongly resisting opponent.

Judo, Wrestling, Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, Boxing, Muy-Tai and perhaps a few are examples of arts where your opponent is actually trying to either pin you, force you to submit, or knock you out. These are MUCH closer simulations for self defense than point sparring or saying "I could knee you in the groin if you did that" (whiney voice).

In Judo you are tested almost every time you practice to see if you TRUELY know how to make that throw, armlock, block, etc. work against someone who is trying to do the same to you. To me it is an excellent balance between practicing safely and developing EFFECTIVE self defense techniques.

Martin

PS The following is a good forum for martial arts related stuff:
http://www.fightingarts.com/

Spectre
March 31, 2005, 02:31 PM
Judo, like many other martial arts, can be used effectively.

As one or two others have said, there is no "deadliest martial art", striking or otherwise. There are generally effective arts, and there are deadly people.

I agree that it's good to have a wide range of tools in your armory, but I also tend to agree that it's better to have them come from a comprehensive school than a buffet of arts.

Maybe you could think of it like this: you could take a Hemi V8, which works great in a Chrysler, add to it a turbocharger that does wonders for an Eclipse, and toss in a fuel injector that does a bang-up job in Audi. Though these parts may work very well for their intended vehicles, there is no guarantee that they will perform well with each other. Just a thought. :)

John

SIGLOCKAUR
March 31, 2005, 06:54 PM
My main art is Tang Soo Do in which I am a 5th Degree Black Belt. My instructor was also a Blact belt in Judo. I can tell you this. Twice I have used simple hip throw and it saved the bacon. One guy was charging me. Just rolled right with him. The other grabbed my coat in the winter and ended up on his back. As someone said cement is a good landingstriop for jets. The fight was pretty much over after the throws. The choke holds I've also found to be very useful. I do think you also need some basis in a striking art also. Check out some Jiu-Jitsu clubs. These usually include strikes as well as throws, locks, and chokes. Mr. Kano took techniques from Jiu-Jitsu to form the sport of Judo.

coolridelude
April 1, 2005, 12:52 AM
i second tangsoodo. and boxing, and and ground fighting. :cool:

Blind Tree Frog
April 1, 2005, 04:12 PM
Mr. Kano took techniques from Jiu-Jitsu to form the sport of Judo.Yes, but modern jui jitsu was derived from judo. It shares little with traditional jui jitsu outside of the name.

Sorry that just irks me a bit.

SIGLOCKAUR
April 2, 2005, 12:59 AM
Didn't mean to irk you BLINDTREEFROG. I see what your saying about modern JiuJitsu. I'm not an expert on grappling arts but I thought some traditional styles of JiuJitsu still existed. Their was a Mr. Ping up North who taught what he said was a traditional style of JiuJitsu that included kicks and handstrikes.He was pretty impressive. Anyways as I said the Judo I learned from my instuctor served me well in many situations. As you well know sometimes our opponents can get up on us fast. That's why knowledge of grappling is a must. I used the jointlocks some, the chokes more, and the throws, takedowns, and so on much more. Going back to the original question yes judo can be quite effective. Add a striking art and your good to go. The chokes also are a great way to change someones mind fast!

futureforcewarrior22
April 2, 2005, 05:21 AM
I'm partial to Krav Maga, Karate and Pi Qua Quan.

Pi Qua Quan is hard though, but once you get it down pat, it can be quite effective in certain circumstances. To me, it's main focus seems to be keeping your opponent at bay as you back off or to drive them foreward. But, that's just my thinking.

haskell
April 2, 2005, 01:13 PM
Always liked Heto & Moto myself. :D

Come to L.A. Will have a party

Blind Tree Frog
April 3, 2005, 05:06 PM
Didn't mean to irk you BLINDTREEFROG. I see what your saying about modern JiuJitsu. I'm not an expert on grappling arts but I thought some traditional styles of JiuJitsu still existed. Their was a Mr. Ping up North who taught what he said was a traditional style of JiuJitsu that included kicks and handstrikes.He was pretty impressive. Anyways as I said the Judo I learned from my instuctor served me well in many situations.
Sorry, I've been bitter in general as of late.

But to elaborate, my understanding of the history was Juijitsu was there, but the training was rather brutal. Judo was developed to be a bit more friendly training wise. Judo was selected for official pruposes and juijitsu pretty much died out. Probably a few schools of it still around, but what people refer to as JJ today (specifically BJJ) is derived from one of the judo schools.

Course, if you go to a TKD school they'll say it came from Korea and that they dominate the sport so what can you do. Everyone is an ******* (but mainly me).

And I've been to a Judo school that tought punches and kicks. Originally Judo had punches and kicks (infact, as I remember it, the original "black belt" qualificaiton was to go pick a fight in the red light district and drop your opponent with one strike). Just depends where you go and if it's a sport orient school or combat.

Yowza
April 5, 2005, 03:32 PM
I know this was a really old post, but this quote bugs me...Systems like Aikido can be useful particularly for attribute developments, but their effectiveness is, in general, limited by the fact that they are trained in Kata form only. In my experience, Aikido does not use Katas at all except for weapons training. It's almost exclusively "full contact" and randori since the techniques can be done without inflicting any injury. That's one of the reasons why it is such a good method of self defense if you're committed to training in it.

Rick

Topthis
April 7, 2005, 11:15 AM
I know this is an old thread and probably has been addressed almost as many times as.."what is the most effective caliber" argument. I just wanted to state that there is no "Deadliest" martial art, or "Ultimate" etc. I agree with Blind Tree Frog, in that anyone who starts spouting such garbage is an amateur, even with years of experience behind them. Any true Martial Artist knows that any style can be effective, formidable and dangerous. I have been training Martial Arts for the better part of my whole life, I have trained diligently and daily for 30 years. I have partnered up and been involved with a number of different styles and have always found the subtle nuances about all the styles facinating.
Fact, I love Judo, I did not study the sport Judo, when I trained, we did not have weight classes or age brackets...heck, it was matching up people according to the color of belt and letting em go at it. I love Tae Kwon Do, I did not study the sport Tae Kwon Do, my Teacher spent years instructing the Korean Military and used his knowledge in battle, we did not spend the all too familiar majority of time on Kicks vs. Hands, there were alot of grabbing, chopping, smashing, locks and dis-locations. Fact of the matter is, Tae Kwon Do is a very formidable style. It is this new sport stuff that has everyone thinking it is not effective. I also spent a few years adding some Hung Gar Kung Fu, Choi Li Fut, Aikido, Kendo, Muy Thai (I really like the leg kicks of this style), Hapkido (much like the TKD), Kyokushinkai Karate and most recently have played around with Mixed Martial Arts, I like this stuff because it incorporates sooo many posiblities, with the exception of getting it on with multiple attackers. As for the Video of Royce and the Kick boxer, nice!! I love to see different styles get it on. I had myself once "sparred" with a BJJ artist that claimed his 15 years of training had made him pretty much invincible (at that point I knew he was an amateur)...I let him close on me and as he went for my hips, i rolled with his grapple and hit him in his temple with Thumb Knuckle attack (Oya yubi), he was out! BJJ is a formidable style, just not this particular loudmouth. Yes, I have been blasted into the next dimension myself a time or two. There is NO ultimate style...PERIOD!!!

The moral of this rant...pick a style, any style...train with diligence and determination.

By the way...uh, yeah, Judo is a good style.

IronGeek
April 7, 2005, 01:42 PM
Judo is great! It's saved my bacon several times. It's beauty is in it's philosophy: Instead of asking, "How can I quickly kill/maim my opponent?" it asks "How can I end this quickly without killing or maiming my opponent?"

One interesting twist I've observed is that some judo techniques can be slightly modified to flip a foe squarely onto his head rather than flat on his back, resulting in almost certain spinal injury or death.

The bottom line is that any style can be effective, even deadly.

Blind Tree Frog
April 7, 2005, 04:37 PM
heh, you do the throw right in the first place outside of a mat and they aren't going to be moving anytime soon. No need to worry about dropping them on their head.

IronGeek
April 7, 2005, 06:00 PM
True, BTF,

Most people won't know to absorb the impact of a fall with their arms & keep their chins tucked to avoid bopping their heads on the ground. Still, there's a lot of difference between getting the wind knocked out of you & breaking your neck!

Blind Tree Frog
April 8, 2005, 12:49 AM
Even then, back when I did judo many many years ago, I could get people to bounce on the mats and then lay there in pain for a bit; People trained how to fall. You hit the throw correctly and there is enough power behind most all of them that they will not appreciate hitting the ground. Hell, do you like how it feels when you trip just walking around? Now put force behind it.


As an example, not to make this a Judo vs BJJ thing, it might of been mentoined before about the Judo vs BJJ match that the one BJJ choke hold came out of (named after the judo guy who beat the BJJ guy with it). The general consensus of the match was that if the mats were not as soft as they were (they were extra soft, non-regulation as i remember) the Gracie would not of stayed concious long enough for him to have been beaten. The falling from the throws would have knocked him out. And if the gracies aren't trained to take a fall (as opposed to a dive) then I'm not sure who would be.


That was a joke, calm down... the dive i mean :p

Superhornet
April 8, 2005, 09:01 AM
Judo, or any of the hand to hand combat training scenarios can be effective against unarmed perps. I prefer that old combat training.......S&W

boofus
April 8, 2005, 11:09 AM
Judo or Jujitsu can be very effective. The throws are great, but the real fight stoppers are the joint breaking techniques and chokes. Learning how to fall without hurting yourself is a bonus too. They call Judo the 'gentle way', but if you don't know how to fall there is nothing gentle about being slammed to the ground. The more vicious techniques were taken out of Judo for competition, like the neck breaks and throws that break joints at the same time. Competition typically isn't about maiming your opponent.

But the senior students and the sensei at the dojo I went to were also into firearms. They always said if someone pulls a gun on you forget jujitsu and shoot em first or duck and run. :D

IronGeek
April 8, 2005, 11:46 AM
Yep, taking a fall is one thing, but taking a bullet? Mm, no thanks.

stephen426
April 8, 2005, 04:12 PM
My major concern with grapling arts is you can only fight one person at a time. If the BG has a few buddies with him, you had better pull out your gun. Martial arts that concentrate on strikes have the edge here as a devestating strike will drop your BG and make his buddies seriously reconsider going hand to hand. On the flip side, the BG's buddies seeing your proficiency at martial arts may choose to escalate to firearms and then everyone is in trouble.

The best defense period is RUN, DON'T WALK, at the first hint of trouble. This is if the trouble is avoidable of course and not in your own home or business. I'm not advocating cowardice, but not getting into situations in the first place is usually the most appealing alternative.

On another note, I've heard Krav Magra is pretty vicious. The are the antithesis of "sport" partial arts and have refined all of the wasted motion and energy out of their art.

Another art that is particularly nasty is a form of Kung Fu with a name I can't remember. The response to a straight punch is to block with the arm while simultaneously kicking for the elbow of the attacker's punching arm, while simulatenously conducting an open handed strike to shove the guy's nose up his brain, and then bringing the kicking foot (after breaking the guys elbow) down on the side of the knee to criple the guy for life unless he is already dead from his nose being shoved up his brain. How is that for nasty??? Couldn't they just shoot me in the head instead of making me go through that? :eek:

Spectre
April 18, 2005, 07:00 PM
Your concern about the grappling arts is well-founded.

However-open handed strike to shove the guy's nose up his brain strikes to the face *can* be lethal, but the "nose into brain" thing is myth.

John

Topthis
April 18, 2005, 09:07 PM
NO, no it's not a myth, in fact I teach that technique in my school!! I teach that technique along with the "ripping the guys heart out of his body and show it to him before he dies" technique, yeah, its a long name but..*whew* you should see what a mess it makes when we are training for it! My favorite is the "Quivering Palm" strike, which will kill your foe without even really touching him, but since I don't want to go to prison, I usually just give my attackers the "Death Touch", which will cause the recipient to die suddenly a few days later...and I am looooong gone!! We train these techniques, between floating on air or balancing on thin branches of trees while fighting with swords. My top students are given the "pebble in the palm" thingy...only after they have caught a bullet in their teeth.

Maxprime
April 18, 2005, 09:48 PM
I have trained in Kung Fu, Judo, Brazilian JuJitsu, American Kickboxing, and Thai Boxing. There is no martial art that you can train that will make you a worse fighter (provided you have proper instruction). The way that Tae Kwon Do is taught in the states nowadays is the only thing I would consider an exception to that rule - people are taught to punch from the hip and to do far too complicated kicks that leave their balance (poorly trained) and distance at risk.

Long story short - learn something and become proficient at it and keep it as another tool.

I have competed in Brazilian JuJitsu (Master Relson Gracie) and full contact matches in the past. One of the best moves you can learn is in another style that complements your favorite.

If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Thai Boxing with some knowledge in Brazilian JuJitsu. In a real-world confrontation, one of two things is going to happen:

1) You'll end up on the ground. This is dangerous if your opponent knows how to grapple. With just a few weeks of training you can DOMINATE someone of much larger size on the ground. Since I am relatively small, this is where I take all fights - I can control the speed, intensity, and damage in the fight to my advantage. Perfect case is not beating some drunk idiot within an inch of his life, but holding his face to the floor until authorities show up.

2) You'll stand up and square off. A Thai boxer is going to work to get knees and elbows in, the most effective weapons on the human body for striking. I have been beaten up by Thai boxers and it hurts, a lot.

That being said, I have been thrown on my ass by Judo instructors even when I'm on top of my game. I have been kicked in the face by Kung Fu masters that were quicker and had better technique. It's a matter of finding a style that YOU LIKE and YOU CAN LEARN, PRACTICE, and PERFORM with great skill and YOU ENJOY IT.

Topthis
April 18, 2005, 10:06 PM
Right now I am studying to master...The Force!!! Can't wait to be able to move huge objects (like X-wing fighters) and stuff.

Rabbi
April 18, 2005, 11:42 PM
Read a book called "The Judoka".

Blind Tree Frog
April 19, 2005, 11:09 AM
My major concern with grapling arts is you can only fight one person at a time. If the BG has a few buddies with him, you had better pull out your gun. Martial arts that concentrate on strikes have the edge here as a devestating strike will drop your BG and make his buddies seriously reconsider going hand to hand. The amount of time it takes to punch an opponent can be just as well spent breaking their arm. A grappling style can handle mutliple opponents fine, go watch some Akido exhibitions if you need proof. However, you may need to fight more defensively against multiple opponents then you would normally (keep one between you and them type of thing)