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MLeake
April 20, 2011, 02:29 PM
Two robbers burst into an internet cafe while a third waited in the getaway car. The two who entered the cafe got into a fight with the security guard almost immediately. Video just made the Orlando Sentinel.

Watch how quickly this happens, once the robbers decide to enter the building.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-apopka-robber-shot-dead-20110419,0,5850027.story

Not a lot of reaction time available in a case like this.

Good job by the guard, but he seems to have been helped by the initial mindset of the robbers. I was surprised they didn't start shooting as soon as the first one made physical contact with the guard.

BarryLee
April 20, 2011, 02:45 PM
Wow, scary. It was surprising how close these guys were and apparently only the Security Guard actually hit anyone. I have noticed in a few other videos I have seen of other crimes that often the criminals are not very good shots. I suppose they probably do not train with their weapons very much which most likely accounts for their lack of accuracy.

I hope the fact that he shot the robber in the back as he fled does not become a problem for the guard.

MrWesson
April 20, 2011, 06:09 PM
Florida law allows self defense against retreating criminals so no problem there.

Fact is if these robbers didnt hesitate or if they didn't care about taking someones life the security guard would be dead.

threegun
April 20, 2011, 07:25 PM
Fact is if these robbers didnt hesitate or if they didn't care about taking someones life the security guard would be dead.

Fact? Just because the bad guys start shooting first doesn't mean sure death. One thing that I have noticed over the years..........good guys and bad guys shoot horribly when facing an armed foe.

Get in the fight asap, use good tactics, put as much lead on your adversary and as fast as possible......hopefully you can overcome being behind in the reactionary curve as this guard did. Perhaps he was lucky or maybe he made his luck by retaliating.

RickE
April 20, 2011, 09:57 PM
Let's back up. What was of value for them to steal, and to necessitate a guard?
This is a wi-fi station, right? Good for the guard, I just wish he would have eradicated the other scum. There is no shortage of scum targets!

cloud8a
April 20, 2011, 10:16 PM
The guard did only what was available to him to do, everything was fast and right in his face. He was lucky that for whatever reason the BG's did not open fire on him immediately. One BG was waiting for the other to take control of the guard. It is hard to tell if any of the Bg's fired at all. These guys just looked like they had zero brains and walked into a bears den.

I think the scariest part of this for me was the time it took the guard to draw his weapon. The BG took lunch to let the guard do it. On any other day the guard would have taken fire too.

ClydeFrog
April 20, 2011, 10:19 PM
I saw the media item & video on www.InsideEdition.com .
You can also see: www.WFTV.com & www.WESH.com .
For more details about the Florida security laws/use of deadly force standards see: www.Mylicensesite.com .
Armed security officers are allowed by FS493 to only carry .38spl revolvers, 9x19mm(9mmLuger) or the .380acp on security duty.
They are also required to re-qual & take a 4 hour training class once a year.
Officers are NOT considered sworn law enforcement and are held to the same legal conditions as a regular citizen, re: use of deadly force.
G class security officers or license holders CAN NOT shoot at fleeing subjects under most most conditions(armed robbery, home invasions, auto theft etc).
This information is in the Florida Div of Licensing hand-outs in any state office.
The G officer's actions were sound and he used good tactics from what was put out to the general public at this point. The only point I'd bring up is that he(or any uniformed guard) would be much better served by a CCTV video system or maybe a re-enforced security door with a buzzer system to screen patrons or visitors first.
Access control is important but many security clients or customers do not understand or want to pay for crime prevention/asset protection assessments.
The Florida AG's office offers these courses: www.Myfloridalegal.com .

Another good central FL security shooting event to view took place in the Daytona Beach FL area. A G officer(retired police officer) shot a armed subject who held up a drug store. See it on www.YouTube.com

In closing, I reserve making any full judgements or opinions until all the facts & details are made public. I'm sure the State Atty's office & Seminole County Sheriff's Office(the lead LE agency) will investigate the incident.

Clyde

MrWesson
April 20, 2011, 10:33 PM
Fact? Just because the bad guys start shooting first doesn't mean sure death. One thing that I have noticed over the years..........good guys and bad guys shoot horribly when facing an armed foe.

Get in the fight asap, use good tactics, put as much lead on your adversary and as fast as possible......hopefully you can overcome being behind in the reactionary curve as this guard did. Perhaps he was lucky or maybe he made his luck by retaliating.

My point being they did not shoot even after being shot at(the other robber had his gun trained on the security guard). I would guess if they were prepared to take a life they would have fired on the security guard after he resisted.

MLeake
April 20, 2011, 10:47 PM
You must not have seen the whole video. BG2 fired multiple shots into the cafe after running outside.

ClydeFrog
April 20, 2011, 11:06 PM
The Inside Edition report showed both sections.

To be clear, as a G officer or W(concealed firearm) you can shoot at subjects if they are actively fighting or shooting at you or another bystander but you can't chase criminals down the street like a sworn LE officer.
It's unsound & could lead to criminal/civil court actions.

catnphx
April 21, 2011, 07:51 AM
From a tactical perspective, this guard should not have been stationed at the door because he has virtually no reaction time. At least no good guys were hurt.

TailGator
April 21, 2011, 08:02 AM
What was of value for them to steal, and to necessitate a guard?
This is a wi-fi station, right?

These establishments use computer access for gambling. They have found a loophole in Florida law that allows them to essentially run a casino online. They are very highly profitable. They have a penchant for giving themselves names that make one think they benefit veterans, but only a minute and inconsequential amount of the profits are donated to legitimate veterans' organizations. Wi-fi is not available, only their computers for their purposes, and their purposes are their own profits. Think of this like a casino holdup and you will be close to the mark.

osallent
April 21, 2011, 11:00 AM
This literally just happened the other day here in Florida. Two armed robbers came into an internet cafe store with guns. The security guard managed to push himself away from one of the robbers, and took out his .38 revolver and shot him, thus stopping the armed robbery. Thee robbers fled the scene, and the one who was shot had his body thrown out of the car when he passed away a few blocks away (thus proving there is no honor amongst criminals.) You may find the video of the shooting and the news story in the link below.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378944/Deadly-Shooting-Florida-Internet-Cafe-Caught-Camera.html

mdd
April 21, 2011, 11:23 AM
Surprising that he had anything more than pepper spray & colorful language to defend himself. Good for him that he possessed & effectively utilized his firearm to rid the planet of another worthless thief.

Don H
April 21, 2011, 11:31 AM
More here in this prior thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448756

MP9
April 21, 2011, 01:24 PM
Florida law allows self defense against retreating criminals so no problem there.

are you sure?

once the BG retreat, I think you can not shoot him, UNLESS he is shooting at you while retreating.. if the BG run away you can not shoot him... because there is not fear of live or great bodily harm....

that could be something you have to prove in court and the jury.

are you from FL? have you read FL firearm law, use and ownership ? I will check again, maybe I could be wrong..

MP9
April 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
in this case it would be different, the BG just before flee point the gun at the security guard and him could shoot again before going out...

the security guard was so lucky the BG didnt shoot him... if he wanted to shoot the SG he could do that but he hesitate

Microgunner
April 21, 2011, 02:05 PM
That security officer is now my hero. I hope he gets a raise and promotion.

cracked91
April 21, 2011, 03:23 PM
From a tactical perspective, this guard should not have been stationed at the door because he has virtually no reaction time. At least no good guys were hurt.

+1

I also agree with the comment that had robbers had the mindset to actually use their firearms if need be, the security guard would have at least been shot.

A gun was pointed at the guards head as soon as the robbers entered. When the guard struggled instead of immediately surrendering, instead of firing, the BG ran. I would like to know who fired the first shot in the cafe, both the guard and BG were out of sight.

Incredible bravery and focus by the guard. Managing to keep his head, create distance and draw under that kind of pressure and at such a disadvantage. Would also be interesting to know if that was a premeditated reaction or just a gut fight or flight reaction.

Not really something I would thump my chest at, seeing that the BG (in my very humble opinion) was unwilling to kill and was shot while running away, though I place no blame on the guard, its still sad when anyone short of a murderer is killed.

Nitesites
April 21, 2011, 04:11 PM
Watched the video and can't believe that the guard lived through the ordeal. From what I witnessed, the BG's had him point blank. The guard's placement left him highly vulnerable. I do wish to commend him though on his ability to overcome the initial rush and offer effective resistance to their attack. That in itself was no minor feat.

MrWesson
April 21, 2011, 04:37 PM
You must not have seen the whole video. BG2 fired multiple shots into the cafe after running outside.


From what I saw the security guard fought back and fired a shot while they were inside. Only after the gunfight did they shoot back.

steveno
April 21, 2011, 04:54 PM
if a cafe has to have a security guard then I would find another cafe and/or neighborhood.

JerryM
April 21, 2011, 05:58 PM
(if a cafe has to have a security guard then I would find another cafe and/or neighborhood)

Me too, but I would also not go to one that I felt that I would be in danger without my carry gun on me.

Regards,
Jerry

ClydeFrog
April 21, 2011, 10:02 PM
I agree with Micro's statements but I highly doubt the G/armed guard will get any real credit or a pay raise.
Most armed security officers in central Florida only earn around $9-11.00/hr. :(
Wages used to be higher, $12.00-15.00/hr depending on the post & contract. Many of the private contract companies pay low wages & have high turn over. See www.Craigslist.org and read over some of the security ads.

I also agree with the remarks about the G officer being too close to the access point(door).
As I posted before, the business should have a screening area or post a officer out front to wand patrons or monitor the parking lot.
A lot of clubs/bars/cash heavy businesses do not want to spend $$$. Until they get sued by big law firms that air TV ads or have bus bench ads. ;)

ClydeFrog

Skans
April 22, 2011, 07:30 AM
Here's what I noticed. Look how the Security guard puts some distance between him and the BG before firing. I think this is very important. At first, the BG's were too close to draw and shoot. So, the Security Guard backed up, aimed and fired. I thought he did a fine job.

ClydeFrog
April 22, 2011, 09:51 AM
Here's a quick update;
A few of the other businesses in the strip mall are now going to file a civil lawsuit against the property mgr/landlord.

;)

Double Naught Spy
April 22, 2011, 09:55 AM
if a cafe has to have a security guard then I would find another cafe and/or neighborhood.

Well then, if you feel you need to carry a gun and do so at home or work, then you need to move and/ change jobs, huh? When we engage in doing something to keep us safe, we call it being prudent. When others do it, we figure there must be something wrong and that they area should be avoided? Weird.

What is wrong with a cafe helping to ensure customer and employee safety? Maybe the guard is to keep people from walking out with the computers.

TailGator
April 22, 2011, 10:56 AM
As I posted in the other thread, these "internet cafes" are actually computer-based casinos that take advantage of a loophole in Florida law. It is not surprising that they would be the target of a robbery attempt.

jp58
April 22, 2011, 11:13 AM
The nightly news report on that story told that these internet cafe's do a large cash buisness and that is what makes them attractive to the BG's. My hats off to the cafe for having someone there to defend the patrons.

Uncle Buck
April 22, 2011, 12:26 PM
I read the article at the beginning of this thread. Where is the quote from this BG's mother saying what a nice boy he was and was trying to turn his life around?

If the article is correct, the only one who got hurt was the BG. Overall, you have to call that a good day.

MLeake
April 23, 2011, 09:50 AM
... as they've made an arrest, and are charging the surviving robber with felony murder since his partner was killed during the commission of their joint crime.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/crime/os-internet-cafe-apopka-shooting-murd20110422,0,7471124.story

Meanwhile, on the absurdity level, the arrestee and his lady apparently decided to case the joint ahead of the crime. The problem with that? They had to provide ID's for entry. Police checked the surveillance video from the cafe, thought they recognized the person in an earlier section of the tape, and went through ID's given in that timeframe.

Voila, arrested.

Guess if you're going to case such a place, provide phony ID.

A C/O friend of mine once told me, "These people aren't locked up in here because they are smart, or have good impulse control."

Glenn Bartley
April 25, 2011, 08:29 PM
First of all, it seems that the security guard was fired upon by one of the bad guys before he returned fire. Read the article that accompanies the video, it essentially says gun fire erupts, and the guard then fires. I would like to see a more detailed account but that sure makes it seem as if he was fired on first.

Secondly, the guard will most likely be found justified in the shooting of the bad guy who was fleeing because the bad guy still posed an imminent threat of harm because he was armed with a hand gun.

Third, didn't anyone else see the reaction of the other bad guy outside when shots rang out on the street. My guess is he was hit once if not twice judging by his movements which seemed to come right after the shots. He then seemed to have difficulty getting to the vehicle. Of course the article does not say he was shot but I figure that is because he has not yet been found. Of course, it could just be he fell down but I am thinking it was quite possible that the security officer nailed him too.

9mm
April 25, 2011, 08:33 PM
So... the guy limping died? he hit him in the leg, must have hit the femoral artery.

if a cafe has to have a security guard then I would find another cafe and/or neighborhood.

+1


I am confused what happen with the BG and the SG, he had him at POINT BLANK. He was allowed to draw his weapon and start shooting, did the BG's even shoot at him?

Did the BG's get anything? It doesn't look like they got money.

glock20c
April 25, 2011, 08:52 PM
it's not a wi/fi internet cafe...it's GAMBLING (casino) slots...all the people have cash on them...it's a loophole they(orlando) are trying to close!!

9mm
April 25, 2011, 09:05 PM
Oh, thats why the big screens....

it's GAMBLING (casino) slots :barf: I was going to say who would rob a wi~fi place theres nothing there.

oneounceload
April 25, 2011, 09:07 PM
According to the article, these locations typically have thousands of dollars in cash inside, hence the guard. His shooting the BG in the back is NOT going to go over too well from a legal standpoint - as mentioned, the lawsuits are just getting starting

ClydeFrog
April 25, 2011, 10:22 PM
To clear up a few points about the cafe/gaming parlor shooting;
The subject that was wounded on scene later died at a local motel near the event & was left by his thug pals. ;)
It's not openly known what type of weapon the cafe security officer used. My educated guess is a 9x19mm pistol but a few "old timers" still tote .38spl 6 guns. There are formal plans to allow G/armed security to carry .45acp, .357sig or .40S&W sidearms.
I'm not saying the 9x19mm isn't good enough for patrol use/defense but I'd rather pack a .357sig or .45acp. .40s, .45acp pistols are in use with most of the local PDs.

9mm
April 25, 2011, 10:29 PM
I am still confused, The BG's saw the guard and him drawing his gun, were there guns unloaded or jammed or something?:confused: They didn't try to fight with him, he just drew.

GoOfY-FoOt
April 25, 2011, 10:30 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "SG" may have been an off-duty LEO.

His actions seem to underline some sort of comprehensive training. I held both a D and a G license and we received NO training that would have caused us to respond in the way that he did.

If he is a LEO, I wonder if that will play out to his advantage in the ensuing legal actions?

Am I alone in this theory or does anyone else agree that it is a possibility?

ClydeFrog
April 25, 2011, 11:13 PM
I have not watched the cafe shooting video(s) in depth but I'd say the armed guard's response seems more of a surprise or a rapid reaction rather than some LE or conditioned training.
I do not like to speculate or assume anything. More facts or details may be made public. It could be the security officer was a retired cop or had tactical training. The armed guard in the Daytona Beach FL area drug store event posted on www.YouTube.com was a retired police officer. ;)

Double Naught Spy
April 25, 2011, 11:16 PM
So... the guy limping died? he hit him in the leg, must have hit the femoral artery.

You know, the femoral artery isn't the only major blood vessel in the leg. There several others from which blood loss can be life threatening, even down into the lower leg.

However, he apparently was shot in the back.
http://www.wesh.com/r/27594000/detail.html

glock20c
April 26, 2011, 05:14 AM
Double is correct...SG put it right in the middle of the back,his friends(so called) dumped him at a motel like clyde said.this is a normal evening in orlando...:(

spacecoast
April 26, 2011, 06:23 AM
I am confused what happen with the BG and the SG, he had him at POINT BLANK. He was allowed to draw his weapon and start shooting, did the BG's even shoot at him?



It's hard to say that the BGs aren't stupid, but even they may not be stupid enough to walk in and start off by murdering a security guard at point blank range. They seemed to know that he was sitting just to the left of the door. I think they expected him to drop his hands and surrender rather than resisting.

It's not openly known what type of weapon the cafe security officer used. My educated guess is a 9x19mm pistol but a few "old timers" still tote .38spl 6 guns. There are formal plans to allow G/armed security to carry .45acp, .357sig or .40S&W sidearms.


I ran the tape quite a few times and couldn't quite make it out other than to say that it looks stainless. I heard a total of 6 shots, all I believe from the guard, so that doesn't prove much either other than the last three were right at the end and he may have been emptying his gun (a revolver)? The picture would seem to indicate otherwise. I looked for other clues like holster type or the presence of magazines on his belt but can't say for sure one way or the other.

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac115/spacecoast_guns/guard.jpg

Double Naught Spy
April 26, 2011, 03:52 PM
I am confused what happen with the BG and the SG, he had him at POINT BLANK. He was allowed to draw his weapon and start shooting, did the BG's even shoot at him?

Aside from the stupid angle being mentioned and maybe expecting compliance, the gun may have been unloaded, not had a round chambered, on safe, magazine not fully seated (if a mag safety present), the perp may not have been pulling the trigger (pulling grip or guard), or afraid to pull the trigger.

glock20c
April 26, 2011, 04:10 PM
i did not watch the video online...but when they got into there car,they fired at least 2/3 rounds into the large front window,it shattered completely...

ClydeFrog
April 26, 2011, 09:58 PM
I'd add on this forum topic that if the security guard WAS a sworn LEO or working a off duty PD approved job, he'd be in his duty uniform.

Orlando area sworn LE make anywhere from $25-45.00/per shift hour min by union mandate. ;)
I also wouldn't think a "gaming cafe" would be allowed for off duty employment by most ethical LE agencies but in central Florida you never know. ;)

Clyde

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 12:39 AM
Gary Bryant was on parole for robbery. That means that it was illegal for him to be carrying a gun, yet - there he was on camera carrying a gun.

I just don't understand it. :eek:

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 12:51 AM
Dont ever forget about the man with just one gun, odds are he knows how to use it. An old guy behind a counter is NOT a soft target. - Amin Parker

Reminds me of this other thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4555410#post4555410

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 12:39 PM
After watching this video a few times, I think these three only had 1 functioning firarm. BG#2 had a pistol trained on SG while BG#1 (Gary Bryant)tussled with him (why BG#1 didn't shoot is still a mystery), but as soon as the SG gets his firearm out of the holster BG#2 runs for it - exiting the shop. After BG#1 / Gary Bryant is shot in the doorway I think I hear BG#2 saying:

"Gimmie the pipe, gimmie the pipe!" Could that mean Gary Bryant's handgun? Gary Bryant hands something off to BG#2

You can see where the getaway driver fires the last three shots over the top of the car. When I first saw this video and I saw BG#2 jumping around as the last three shots were fired I thought that he was hit. I think BG2 was jumping around because he thought he was taking fire. It leads me to beleive that Gary Bryant (BG#1) had the only functioning firearm going into that shop.

GoOfY-FoOt
April 27, 2011, 12:45 PM
I'm shot yo!

actually LoL'd on that one...

The video I saw, didn't have sound. Which one did?

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 12:50 PM
It sure sounds to me like he says that:

http://www.wftv.com/video/27602208/index.html

Un-spliced/edited video w/sound

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 12:57 PM
There's also a woman in the back who says:

"Mmmmmmm... Uh huh..."

It's almost she's talking to the perps saying - "Ahhh see - this is what happens when you mess around - I told ya so - you see what happens?"

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
Someone else on another forum noted that it wasn't high-capacity that was critical here - it was good aim.

MLeake
April 27, 2011, 01:20 PM
I'd expand that, and say the one who had better aim, and kept his head, came out on top.

PanBaccha
May 3, 2011, 03:31 PM
Florida law allows self defense against retreating criminals so no problem there.



I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

Double Naught Spy
May 3, 2011, 06:42 PM
I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

A person who is moving away from you may or may not be in retreat. They may simply be going for a better vantage position. You can't know their intent until they are gone.

Here is a great example, and from Florida...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2007-11-07/news/concealed07_1_strangers-soto-concealed-weapons

Robbers approached CCW holders and tried to rob them. This was a neat fight in a bunch of ways. Not only did the good guys draw on a drawn gun and exchange shots and not only did the bad guy retreat only to start firing anew, but the shot average was way above normal as well. This isn't your typical 3 round gunfight.

Bad guys do sometimes stop firing, "retreat" to better vantage, then re-engage. They never stop being a threat until they are gone.

BTW, no problem with the CCW holders in this shooting either.

Justice06RR
May 3, 2011, 08:16 PM
I live in the Orlando area and its scary to hear these things on the news. +1 to the guard who was able to fire back at the BG's.

In FL we have lax and favorable gun laws like the Castle Doctrine/Stand your ground, and also the law that allows you to shoot a retreating BG. Imagine if a thief broke into your house who seems to be retreating as you confront him but was actually running to another room to barricade himself or steal something else. I have no problem shooting the fooker as he is retreating..

Glenn Bartley
May 3, 2011, 09:04 PM
To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. I think that statement shows a poor understanding of when someone could be an imminent threat. Do you really think you understand the term? I ask that seriously not deridingly because understanding what is an imminent threat could someday save your life and not understanding could get you killed. Had the offender dropped the gun and said something to the effect - I give up, I am leaving and then ran for the door, well it might have been a bad shoot. This guy was apparently still armed with a hand gun. Tell me, was there anything to prevent him from turning and shooting or from shooting over his shoulder or from taking cover at the door way and shooting? If there was not anything to prevent that, or to indicate that he had other intentions such as him surrendering, then why was the threat of harm not imminent since he was still armed with a firearm? Think really hard before you answer, your life may depend on the answer you give.

Glenn Bartley
May 3, 2011, 09:16 PM
I heard a total of 6 shots, all I believe from the guard, so that doesn't prove much either other than the last three were right at the end and he may have been emptying his gun (a revolver)? It seems some blasts come through the window and blinds and the piece of blind lands in the parlor on the floor. The original article also seemed to make it sound as if a shot was fired then the guard shot back.

C0untZer0
May 3, 2011, 10:00 PM
The last 3 rounds were fired from BG#3 - the getaway driver. He lays his pistol almost on top of the vehicle above the driver's side door and fires 3 shots. The flash from one of the shots is seen in the video.

Also - while the getaway driver was shooting, BG#2 was jumping around and pointing his handgun in the direction of the store.

I don't think BG#2 had a functioning firearm. As soon as the gaurd pulled his weapon, BG#2 ran from the store. Both BG#1 and BG#2 pointed their weapons at the SG and back into the store as they exited (I won't say retreated).

It brings up a point for me. Given that as a group - this group of 3 criminals continued the attack after BG#1 was shot, I'm not sure if you even get into considering any 1 particular guy as being in the process of retreating.

SG was under attack from a group. Given that he was either under fire or had one BG or another pointing their weapons at him, they never really retreated until the car started moving, and SG had long since stopped firing.

DasGuy
May 4, 2011, 12:07 AM
That new video clears up a lot. I'm surprised the guard already reholstered while they were still shooting.

Good thing they didn't decide to come back in.

ClydeFrog
May 4, 2011, 02:56 AM
Another good 2A/pro gun owner law Florida has is a wounded or deceased criminal's estate CAN NOT sue or file a civil action(wrongful death, emotional duress, etc) against a armed citizen who acted lawfully. :)

Now that's real criminal justice! ;)

As for the gaming parlor event, I haven't really followed the case. All the nitpicking & armchair QBing isn't really going to change the events now.

ClydeFrog

output
May 4, 2011, 07:04 AM
I think this video should serve as a reminder as to just how fast things like this actually go down. I think the guard fared well because his first instinct was to get away from the threats. If he had stood his ground and went for his weapon…this might have ended a lot differently.

C0untZer0
May 4, 2011, 07:54 AM
I think the guard fared well because his first instinct was to get away from the threats. - output

SG had a gun to his head and he decided to brush it off with his right arm. I have no idea why BG#1 didn't shoot the SG right then, maybe a malfuctioning firarm, maybe a bad decision, maybe BG#1 didn't take the pistol off safe - I don't know.

I don't think the decision to struggle with an armed assailant when the assailant has a gun to your head is going to turn out well. In this situation, the gaurd didn't get shot, but I just don't see it as a good decision in most cases.

MLeake
May 4, 2011, 08:14 AM
C0untZer0, surrender might have been the more prudent option, but it's nice that in this case the consequences ended up primarily being suffered by the BG's. Yes, the SG may have some remorse issues and PTSD, and the patrons were probably all scared and my have some PTSD as well, but the injured, dead, and incarcerated are all from the other team.

As far as the gun to the head goes, the fact that the SG could brush away the gun shows why putting a gun literally to somebody's head is not a good idea. If the BG had maintained a just-outside-arm's reach distance, the SG would have had a harder time.

In fact, I'd be more likely to act if the guy got inside arm's reach, than if he did not. Easier to deflect the weapon, while also moving offline.

(Note: doesn't matter what the weapon is, or even if it's a fist - your hands may not achieve what you wanted them to achieve, so getting your body off the line is always a good idea.)

TailGator
May 4, 2011, 08:43 AM
Re the gun to the head: You are already a fraction of a second from death, at the whim of a person who has already shown a propensity for violence. What do you have to lose in fighting back at that point?

Re shooting someone fleeing: There is a huge difference between shooting a fleeing burglar in the back out of anger or revenge and shooting back at someone who is running towards their criminal partners while shooting over their shoulders and/or having their cohorts cover their escape with gunfire. One has to look at the totality of the situation rather than trying to making up rules imagining that one would always or never be prosecuted for shooting at someone moving away from you.

Mr. Davis
May 4, 2011, 08:45 PM
The thing that always amazes me about videos like this is that NOBODY dives for cover. They just sit there while a shootout goes on around them.

Protip: don't be that person.

ClydeFrog
May 11, 2011, 01:00 AM
The last few posts reminds me of the big Casino shoot out in the Kurt Russell action film; 3000 Miles To Graceland.
The film is kinda eh, but the big Las Vegas robbery is worth viewing. www.IMDb.com

I'd say the security guard's actions were based partly on his location. The armed thugs rushed in and it became a CQB type incident.

I'd add that the "remorse" or "PTSD" issues are not really something you can honestly assess w/o fully knowing all the details or backgrounds of the patrons/victims/etc.
As I posted here before, G/armed security officers are NOT considered sworn law enforcement officers by the Florida Div of Licensing or the FDLE(Florida Dept of Law Enforcement). They have NO sworn duty to chase bad guys or make arrests.

Nnobby45
May 11, 2011, 01:38 AM
I don't believe that is true. To shoot at anyone in retreat proves there's no imminent threat to you anymore. Thin line there!

Oh STOP IT. The man had fired shots and tried to commit murder. He was still a threat while running with a gun in his hand, since he could, at any second, turn and fire (again)--especially when he reached a barrier like the door.

And, as has been pointed out, he could also run to seek cover from which he'd have a tactical advantage to commit murder of innocent people minding their own business.

Lastly: shouldn't be so quick to judge a security guard fighting for his life and the lives of others during or immediately after an attemp on his life with adrenaline still flowing. The guard performed very well.

OK, I've taken my chill pill. :)

Oh, and lastley, Proof that 'ol geezers can still shoot--that's the part I like.:D

ClydeFrog
May 11, 2011, 03:03 AM
Another point I'd like to make to all the keyboard commandos here too is a "lesson learned" from this critical incident is to fire a few rounds at a CQB distance or be able to safely operate your weapon at extremely close ranges.
My security instructor; www.S2Institute.com , made those points & when I can I shoot a few handgun rounds at a paper target or 2 at arm's length or 3-5'. It's not pretty but it may keep you alive.

;)