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View Full Version : The AA-12....what was the point?


seeker_two
April 16, 2011, 07:23 PM
http://www.2ndamendmenttv.com/videos/shotguns/aa-12.html

I see its use as a great semi-auto platform, but full-auto?.... :confused:

JohnRaven
April 16, 2011, 10:37 PM
What was the point?

The point was....

Pure awesome.

Whats the point of having dozens of different semi auto hand guns on the market when they all do basically the same thing?

Life would get pretty boring without variety.

psycho nut
April 17, 2011, 03:24 AM
Man portable can of whoop-ass.

I want one.

kx592
April 17, 2011, 07:47 AM
Military and DEA use is all that comes to mind to me..

stonewall50
April 17, 2011, 09:55 AM
Actually one purpose that they talk about on that very show is as a mounted weapon. 2 AA12s mounted sidebyside controled by a computer. Imagine the devastation that would be had in an urban environment that is very compact. fire it 20 time full auto and that is 180-240 lead balls depending on shot size.

Versatility would be another huge factor as well. High caliber rounds? Explosives? Anti-riots gun? It is a shotgun so basically the point is to upgrde the firepower aand abilities of current shotguns.

This is not an LEO weapon...but would fall more along the lines of things like the M2, M240, M249s, MK19s etc.

USMCGrunt
April 17, 2011, 11:03 AM
Cool range toy but I really don't see anything practical about it at least in the realm of a defensive weapon. The shotgun is at it's best inside 25 meters where speed comes into play. Something this heavy and bulky reduces the main benefit the shotgun brings to the fight, speed and stopping power at close ranges. Now it may have practical purposes for riot control assuming it will function correctly with less than lethal munitions but in many cases, reliability with an auto using munitions like this tends to be lacking so that brings us back to square one, I really don't see a practical real-world purpose for this thing.

schutzen
April 17, 2011, 12:59 PM
Point man in close cover i.e. jungle and probably in an urban environment.

armoredman
April 17, 2011, 01:07 PM
Get that stuff from Blammo Ammo and alternate screamers, tear gas, buckshot, Dragons Breath and slug. :):p

stonewall50
April 17, 2011, 01:46 PM
This is quite practical in a military setting. Outside of that? It isn't. That is why it isn't legal for civilians to purchase without the full auto license lol.

But realitically speaking it would be devastating in a close range environment. It would be heavier, but about the same length as an assault rifle. It would certainly be a hell of a lot more deadly and have a much more versatile range of ammo(it can pack the explosive and armor piercers). BTW this is not the first full auto shotgun. Check out the SPAS12

colostomyclown
April 17, 2011, 02:10 PM
The SPAS 12 is not full auto, lol. You should check your facts before you spout them. Also, would you care to link us to these "armor-piercers" you speak of?



It's worthless unless firing FRAG-12 rounds, which IS the real point of the gun. Personally, I think it's pretty stupid and would waste a lot of ammo quickly. The Saiga 12 is the pinnacle of shotgun development, period. AA12 is bulky, ugly, and an answer to a question no one asked. Even though I believe the Saiga is the pinnacle of the shotgun's development, it could probably stand some refining in function with bolt hold open and mag seating reliability. Until then a pump is anyone's best bet, much to the chagrin of the video gamer poindexters that come on here and speak of full auto SPAS-12's and SOOp3r Shotguns.

stonewall50
April 17, 2011, 11:57 PM
@Colostomyclown: Honestly I should just allow you to look like an idiot with the whole armor piercing comment, but I will just go ahead and point out that the frag12 ammo that you are talking about comes in ARMOR PIERCING. Maybe you should not jump the gun and be so anxious about stepping on someone's toes and actually watch the video posted? Start the video at 4:40 and you will see.

Oh and my mistake about the SPAS. I mistakenly said that when I meant the pancor(which was never practically used).

Oh and I am far from a "video game" gun nut. I have spent YEARs on the 870, and I have been shooting shotguns for 16 years(I started at 5). The pile of waterfowl alone under my feet is pretty impressive(though the hunting sucked these past 2 years), let alone dove and broken clay pigeons. I suggest you stop being a D on the forum and actually treat people with some respect. You might get farther in a discussion. So if you want to discuss like a big boy I am open to it.

egor20
April 18, 2011, 12:11 AM
It reminds me of a full auto version of the "street sweeper" shotguns that were popular in the late 90s. BTW the semi auto street sweeper's the only weapon banned in Virginia, but I could get one of these with a class 3 tax stamp, weird huh :confused:

Willie Lowman
April 18, 2011, 03:03 AM
Oh, you guys kill me with this stuff.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh before work.

Double Naught Spy
April 18, 2011, 06:12 AM
I see its use as a great semi-auto platform, but full-auto?....

Why is if folks are okay with a platform that is semi-auto, but see no need for a faster rate of fire? Recoil reduction in semi-auto would be great, but it is the recoil reduction that really helps make full auto reasonable in a man-portable package without blinding muzzle brakes.

Personally, I don't have a need for the special exploding ammo. I could make do with buckshot and slugs just fine.

armoredman
April 18, 2011, 08:54 AM
I do believe there was only two of the Pancor Jackhammers ever built, one got a cameo in the movie Totall Recall. Also the HK CAWS was a select fire shotgun, IIRC.
The drawbacks to the idea is the bulk of the ammunition and typical range. For CQC only this would be an interesting firearm, if the operator practices fire discipline, for those drum magazines look very bulky to carry many of at once, no idea on the capacity of the standard looking magazines you see so briefly.
The Saiga is a nice semi-auto shotgun, wish I had picked one up years ago.
BTW, the company I referred to earlier, (it was a real outfit, no idea if they are still around, don't care enough to Google it), also made an "armor peircing" 12 guage slug. I also do not play those video games - hell, my first computer was a Commodore Vic -20, for crying out loud, I'm a little old for that stuff.
SPAS-12? No, the SPAS I would want would be the SPAS 15...

grumpa72
April 18, 2011, 09:07 AM
The video pretty much explains it and does so quite clearly. Urban warfare and house clearing for the military during urban settings. If you have ever seen videos of house clearing during the Iraq campaign then you would see that this is a shotgun designed for the military.

LordTio3
April 18, 2011, 09:14 AM
Military Uses for the AA-12 Select Fire Shotgun loaded with Frag-12 HE Ammunition.
http://www.defensereview.com/stories/aa-12/FRAG-12%20Projectile_1.jpg
Anti-Vehicular Weapon that shoots flatter and with smaller ammunition than an M203 that is capable of rapid fire.
Anti-Barricade weapon to end stand-off engagements with greater speed.
Mobile Handheld Anti-Air Support Weapon.
And with a 32 round drum magazine loaded with Frag-12 HE Ammunition, you could literally clear an entire single-story structure from a covered position without exposing any member of your team until it's time to secure whatever is left.

For it's size and delivery system, the firepower it can provide in the amount of time it is able to provide it is unprecedented. Yes, it is still able to pump out buckshot and slugs alongside the rest of the shotgun options, but that isn't why it was created. It finds it's niche in the specialty ammunition options that were developed solely for this platform.

Civilian Uses-
Slaughtering clay pigeons.
Weekend toy.

~LT

Technosavant
April 18, 2011, 10:12 AM
That is why it isn't legal for civilians to purchase without the full auto license lol.

It does not appear that you are acquainted with the ins and outs of the NFA items.

1) There's no such thing as a "full auto license." If you want to legally own a fully automatic weapon, you must have the approved ATF form with a valid tax stamp as per the 1934 NFA. This is not a license. It is a form showing you have paid a tax. There is indeed a difference.

2) Thanks to the rider tossed onto the 1986 FOPA, the full auto registry was closed in 1986. The only fully automatic firearms that can be owned by the public at large are on this registry because it is no longer legal to add things to the registry. Therefore, there's no such thing as a post-1986 fully automatic firearm on which a citizen can pay the tax. One must be an approved SOT (special occupational taxpayer) with a request to demonstrate such a firearm for sale to an approved agency in order to obtain a dealer sample, but those are not available to the general public. (There's certain rules regarding the post-86 dealer samples, but since I am not a SOT, I haven't bothered to learn them; they're irrelevant to me.)

3) The AA-12, although its design was begun in the 1970s, the current design was done about 2005. Therefore, no transferable AA-12s exist since 2005 is obviously after 1986.

Here endeth the NFA lesson (insert "the more you know" image mentally at this point :p).


It sure does look like fun, but as pretty much everybody points out, it has limited utility unless you're doing rather extreme things. But it doesn't matter, since until 922o gets repealed, we can't get them anyway.

pelo801
April 18, 2011, 12:19 PM
the point is, like the guy in the video said "it's a force mulitiplyer". think about what that means. one man could do an awful lot of damage with one gun. i can see some uses in CQC situations. but to me, it just looks like a whole lot of fun. and probably a whole lot of money getting spent real fast.

Double Naught Spy
April 18, 2011, 12:52 PM
Naw, the point is that this is the only shotgun that works well from a RC helicopter! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZCH1492CzA

jaguarxk120
April 18, 2011, 04:11 PM
Hey can you use that thing for goose hunting.:p The only drawback I see is after three rounds the copter has to return for a reload.:barf:

publius
April 18, 2011, 09:27 PM
yeah, it would be great for the Spring Snow Goose season where there's no limit or mag. restrictions.

ClydeFrog
April 19, 2011, 11:19 PM
The "point" to me was as the designer/main engineer of the AA-12 stated; to provide US troops or sworn LE officers with a full auto weapon in MOUT(urban areas) or as a man portable weapon to defend positions or remove IEDs/ambush set-ups.
His goal was to improve the big M-16 looking 12ga; as used by action hero Steven Seagal in the 1990s film: On Deadly Ground, www.IMFdb.org . I don't recall the full name of the older 12ga but it was flawed/unused.
The main problem with the AA12 is it's large size & weight. :(
As a US Army veteran in a combat support unit, I can tell you size, weight, ammunition, tools-spare parts etc can be a serious pain if a large weapon is issued. I never liked the older type Mk 19 40mm full auto weapon either for many of the same reasons.
A better 12ga spec ops or LE shotgun would be the type from www.PennArms.com . They sell cool 37/40mm weapons too.

The old Discovery or TLC channel had a series called Future Weapons. They did a in depth look at the AA12 12ga weapon. It may still be online or on YouTube.
ClydeFrog

armoredman
April 20, 2011, 12:55 AM
That was the USAS-12, made in Korea. Soft parts, couldn't handle the job at all.
Now I can see a squad with these toys doing an ambush on a trail...hoo boy.

ClydeFrog
April 20, 2011, 01:39 AM
As a lower enlisted MP(E-4), I was somewhat miffed that we were not issued M79 grenade launchers. I heard they were rather nasty in SE Asia when used correctly.

I did have a beat up old M203 on my M16a1 but that is just not as bad-#%*.

ClydeFrog

Double Naught Spy
April 20, 2011, 06:34 AM
The old Discovery or TLC channel had a series called Future Weapons. They did a in depth look at the AA12 12ga weapon. It may still be online or on YouTube.

LOL, Future Weapons never did an in depth look at any weapon. They do present high speed low drag exciting looks at weapons and every one of them is better than anything else and everything (gun-based) is compared against the MP5, which depending on a giving show is the most lethal firearm ever made until weapon X came along or is a puny outdated gun with no future because weapon X has come along. None of the weapons or gear shown ever have any problems or signficant shortcomings. The only negative things said about the showcased weapons is that nobody wants to be on the receiving end of them.

Here is the future weapons link...
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/29869/Future_weapons_AA_12_Shotgun/

Considering that they broadcast the manufacturer's obviously incorrect comment about the AA12 probably being the most powerful weapon in the world, you know the show really doesn't do serious weapon reveiws.