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2damnold4this
April 16, 2011, 04:11 PM
http://onlineathens.com/stories/041611/new_815531868.shtml

We've had some recent home invasions near our neighborhood and they've got me thinking that I might not be adequately prepared. It seems these three well armed criminals like to catch people outside their homes and force their way in at gun point. My daily carry piece is a G26 inside the right front pocket and that seems less than desirable against three guys with some of them carrying long guns.


I do have a daughter and a wife living in the house with me. I'd like to take my wife shooting with a .38 and see if she is comfortable with it but until then, it would be up to me to defend the house.

It's not practical to carry a rifle or shotgun when outside the house so I guess I'll have to be super vigilant when gardening or cutting the grass. Inside the house, I think I have a much better chance at repelling intruders and I have the option of keeping a long gun available. My two choices are a Mini 14 and a Remington 870. While I've practiced a bit with the Mini using surplus South African ball, I haven't taken the time and tested it with personal defense ammunition. I have less experience with the shotgun but I do have a good supply of #1 and #4 buck. Should I keep the mini with its 30 round mags loaded with the surplus ball handy or use the five shot 870 until I have a chance to get to the range?

What else would you do to prepare?

Rifleman1776
April 16, 2011, 04:35 PM
If it won't get you arrested, I would put a banana clip in the Mini and sling it across your back. It is visible and present. Visibility is a huge deterrent. If you have a pistol, wear it on your belt exposed. You really shouldn't have a problem with the law doing that. If you anticipate that possibility, call the police and tell them what you are doing and why. Just stay on your own property when so equiped.

Dr. Strangelove
April 16, 2011, 04:37 PM
Don't have any advice for you, I simply wanted to say I live in the same town and have recently started leaving a loaded handgun out of the safe, something I was always against previously. (I don't have kids, or strangers wandering through my home)

Athens has always been a little "rough around the edges", but it's getting ridiculous.

Vt.birdhunter
April 16, 2011, 04:45 PM
1. Get a dog
2. Get an alarm

The shotgun probably offers your best odds in a firefight despite your lack of experience with it. Like horse-shoes and hand-grenades, close enough counts with buckshot.
Shoot a few dozen clay birds with field loads to become comfortable with the controls. Try to have your other family members do the same.

The rifle will take more skill to use effectively in a firefight, and offers a greater chance of over penetration and collateral damage through adjacent walls or houses. Keep it ready for repelling your borders over 50 yards.

To prepare, try to always carry when home. A home invasion will happen almost instantly. Use your carry pistol to fight your way to a long arm or to loved ones. Train your family members to responsibly defend you and themselves with the family guns.

Good luck to you

kaylorinhi
April 16, 2011, 05:20 PM
My defense-in-depth is set-up as such:

Cute little Yellow lab barks first,
Big White American Bulldog advances
.45 ACP on hip
12 gauge close at hand
5.56 a bit further away

I open carry my .45 in the yard and house.

In your case I would get a dog and, depending on barrel length, keep the 12guage handy! As stated a few rounds each months will keep you proficient. Check your shot pattern and bird shot may be a good choice. You can check You Tube for videos of the penetration of BS v 5.56 and other common home defense rounds.

2damnold4this
April 16, 2011, 05:24 PM
Thanks for the advice so far. I should mention that I have six dogs and the shotgun has an 18 1/2 in barrel. : )

TenRing
April 16, 2011, 05:43 PM
I have lived in the city and in the suburbs. I have learned to always keep my doors locked, even when going to the curb to get the mail or just to set out trash. I teach my wife and kids the same thing. Never turn your back on your house without locking the door, even if only for just a minute. Things can change real fast within that minute.

As far as guns, I would keep my carry gun on me when mowing the lawn or spending time in the yard. The other guns won't do you much good if you can't get to them immediately. Thieves work fast and they seem to work in twos or threes. The idea is to stop them from getting into the house rather than reacting to their presence once they try to get in.

If you think the neighborhood is going to pot, take advantage of depressed housing prices and buy another house in a better neighborhood. Now is the time to do it if you think it is necessary. Don't wait until prices rise.

MLeake
April 16, 2011, 05:52 PM
Not all rifles and loads are over-penetration hazards. Most 5.56mm ammo will not punch through too much drywall. This is bad, if you're an infantryman trying to shoot through a mud wall - I'm sure you've read some of the complaints in the forums. But it's good when you just want to hit the BG, and not blast through several walls.

So, that Mini-14 is also a good choice. Just don't load it with penetrators (assuming you could find them).

maestro pistolero
April 16, 2011, 07:57 PM
You have everything you need. Your awareness is your best defense. If they can't sneak up on you, then you have the home turf advantage.

I would say handgun in a PROPER HOLSTER outside. Be prepared to duck inside and take a position with that mini 14.

And train, train, train. When you train, shoot like your life is in danger. Don't train slow and precise, train fast and combat accurate. Practice double and triple-tapping multiple targets at close range, 5-25 feet.

Time yourself or have your wife or partner time you. See how fast you can get two or three shots center mass on three or four targets.

If you are grouping tight little clusters, you're shooting too slow. If you're all over the place, then slow down a bit. Shoot as fast as you can, maintaining center of mass hits in, say, a 5 or 6 inch circle.

Now, go train like all hell's breaking loose, because if your family is victimized, it will be.

Ryder
April 16, 2011, 08:24 PM
I don't like to advertise that I'm armed so if I am out in the yard for any great length of time I'll often have a loaded long gun leaning up against the door molding inside the house or the back door to the garage. I keep it behind a curtain or covered with a jacket.

2damnold4this
April 17, 2011, 05:19 AM
I do carry the Glock when inside and out. I know an inside the pocket holster isn't the best choice for access with the left hand but it's very concealable and I'm comfortable with the draw. I think I'll go to the range asap and test the self defense ammo in the mini and maybe shoot the shotgun some too. Thanks for all the advice.

2damnold4this
April 17, 2011, 05:20 AM
Don't have any advice for you, I simply wanted to say I live in the same town and have recently started leaving a loaded handgun out of the safe, something I was always against previously. (I don't have kids, or strangers wandering through my home)

Athens has always been a little "rough around the edges", but it's getting ridiculous.

It has been kinda crazy lately.

ClayInTx
April 17, 2011, 06:04 AM
When outside I carry concealed. In winter a heavy shirt, untucked, with a .357 in a cross-draw holster. In summer a smaller .38 in my pocket. I don’t want to let a BG know I’m armed. I want to surprise him when he thinks he has it made and I can’t give him grief.

In the house I have guns in reach and sometimes still have the .38 in my pocket. At night the .38 is bedside and is an LCR so I can hold it under a blanket and not chance snagging the hammer. The downside of that is ruining a sheet, blanket, and nice bed spread—and scaring the hell out of a cat asleep at my feet.

highvel
April 17, 2011, 06:46 AM
I know a guy that was on his couch one afternoon when the front door came crashing in, followed closely behind by three armed punks. He told me that if he had a pistol anywhere besides in his hand, he wouldn't have had time to react! The invasion was so fast that there was nothing he could do but let them have everything they wanted, and thank god they took stuff and left!!!!
My guess in his case, a dog would have come in VERY handy to get a little more advance warning of someone at the door, but who knows.
If he had been armed, would the outcome have been better or worse, again who knows.
My dogs will alert me to anyone walking, or driving, into my yard and I feel early warning is priceless!

TailGator
April 17, 2011, 08:24 AM
The cited story said the robbery occurred just after 1:00 AM. Were the others at a similar time? Not that you should let your guard completely down at any time, but the wee hours of the morning would seem intuitively to be a riskier time of day than afternoons, when yard work gets done.

MLeake
April 17, 2011, 08:30 AM
TailGator, you're a veterinarian, right?

Around these parts, vet clinics have been getting hit, though more in a burglary than home invasion mode. Perps want the pain-killers.

Our next door neighbor is a vet clinic. Local sheriff's deputies make regular checks on their building at night.

Haven't heard of veterinarian home invasions, but some of the equine/bovine vets, who operate from trucks, have encountered robbers.

How's the scene in FL?

TailGator
April 17, 2011, 09:55 AM
Burglaries of veterinary clinics are far from rare. Current laws governing scheduled narcotics require them to be stored in double-locked safes, so such burglaries are frequently unproductive to the perpetrators, but often cause considerable damage to the facility. (The local paper here was very helpful in printing an article about a particular drug saying that it was "perfectly legal" to use - a completely false assertion - but could only be acquired by breaking into veterinary clinics. Approximately 1/3 of the veterinary clinics in my county suffered burglaries in the two months after that article appeared.)

Of significant concern to me, as one of the decreasing numbers of veterinarians who make themselves available to their clients for emergencies after hours, is the possibility of walking in on a burglar. My building is constructed in such a way that burglaries are not only very difficult (concrete construction, sturdy doors, few windows with none out of sight of a major road, exterior lighting) but also pretty obvious from the outside.

Armed robberies to acquire drugs are not common, but are certainly within the realm of possibility. Training for my staff includes how to deal with such events should they occur.

The most recent armed confrontation I am aware of in my area was not someone seeking drugs, but a disgruntled client angry that his pet had succumbed to what was, unfortunately, not a treatable disease. Pets are very important to a lot of people, but unfortunately people are not always rational.

I no longer do large animal work, but veterinarians who do are highly vulnerable. The drugs that they carry are larger in quantity than a small animal practitioner due to the doses for large animals being larger, and much of their work is done after being called to the site, often remote, either alone or accompanied by only one assistant. I haven't heard of any recent incidents in my area, but the potential is certainly there.

Right now, Florida's oversight of pill-mill style "pain clinics" is among the most lax in the nation. People come from all up and down the eastern seaboard to stock up on abusable prescription medications for recreational use and sale in other states. The ease of acquiring drugs in that manner might actually be protecting veterinarians a bit.

Onward Allusion
April 17, 2011, 10:07 AM
2damnold4this
Recent home invasions got me thinking
http://onlineathens.com/stories/0416...15531868.shtml
We've had some recent home invasions near our neighborhood and they've got me thinking that I might not be adequately prepared. It seems these three well armed criminals like to catch people outside their homes and force their way in at gun point. My daily carry piece is a G26 inside the right front pocket and that seems less than desirable against three guys with some of them carrying long guns.
I do have a daughter and a wife living in the house with me. I'd like to take my wife shooting with a .38 and see if she is comfortable with it but until then, it would be up to me to defend the house.
It's not practical to carry a rifle or shotgun when outside the house so I guess I'll have to be super vigilant when gardening or cutting the grass. Inside the house, I think I have a much better chance at repelling intruders and I have the option of keeping a long gun available. My two choices are a Mini 14 and a Remington 870. While I've practiced a bit with the Mini using surplus South African ball, I haven't taken the time and tested it with personal defense ammunition. I have less experience with the shotgun but I do have a good supply of #1 and #4 buck. Should I keep the mini with its 30 round mags loaded with the surplus ball handy or use the five shot 870 until I have a chance to get to the range?
What else would you do to prepare?

I'm assuming you have a carry license, so you can open or conceal carry on your property a XDM or some other pistol with much greater capacity. I am a firm believer in capacity in stressful situations. While you may be a crack shot at the range, you may not be when you're scrambling. It's nice to have 20 9mm rounds in your hands rather than having to worry about a reload after you've shot off 8 rounds of 45ACP.

Also, depending on the age of your daughter, you may want to think about hiding firearms throughout the house. If you are concerned about that, then invest in a few quick open gun lockboxes. Make sure the basement has one.

Take your wife shooting ASAP - PERIOD. Get her the necessary skills. She has to take responsibility for her own safety as well as contribute to the safety of the household. Also depending on the age of your daughter, do the same with her.

Invest in an alarm system. While it will not stop the BG from getting the jump on you, it will allow you to hit the panic button, especially if you have a key FOB panic button. Finally, you may want to install surveilance cameras around your home. They are a HUGE deterrent.

irish52084
April 17, 2011, 01:14 PM
With 6 dogs and a good selection of firearms you're well on your way. My only suggestions equipment wise is a larger higher capacity handgun that you can carry openly outside, if legal, and an extended tube on the 870.

Use 00 buck in your shotgun and check the pattern with your defensive load It can make huge difference in pattern depending on ammo. Shotguns require training, they are not aim in the general direction of your attacker and he flies through the air backwards weapons! Sorry for the bold, but I want people to understand this with the shotgun. The shotgun is a great tool for home defense, but it's not a point and shoot weapon.

Here's a few questions I have for your situation:
Do you have a large enough property that shots of 25+ yard might be needed?
Are any of your dogs a large protection type of breed and will they alert bark?
How much tactical training do you have with your shotgun, can you perform slug changeovers proficiently, do you know you effective 00 buck pattern range?

microman
April 17, 2011, 01:55 PM
What else would you do to prepare?

How about hardening your home with extra locks, motion sensor
lights around the outside. Dogs are a great deterrent.

Sleuth
April 17, 2011, 02:09 PM
I would NOT wear a slung rifle outside the house (well, I would but my nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, the next after that is 2 mi.) in a city or the 'burbs. It only alerts everyone who even drives by where there are guns to steal.

45Gunner
April 17, 2011, 04:19 PM
I gotta tell ya guys...if the neighborhood is getting so bad that you have to be concerned every moment that someone or something is going to come busting thru the door/window, it is definitely time to move. A man's home is his castle and thus should not become his prison. My house is my retreat where I can feel safe...don't confuse this with complacent. I have a state of the art Alarm System, a 4 legged early warning system, and live in a very small gated community where someone or something out of place is immediately noticed. Almost everyone has a dog and when they all start barking at 3 AM, everyone is out of their beds and investigating.

I, too, keep a loaded gun on my person at all times and there are indeed guns hidden about the house but I don't worry about going to the mail box trying to decide if I should take my AR or Shotgun.

watkins1988
April 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
you can get a 2 shot extension for your 870 and thats all you need. if someones in your yard or at your front door go with the shotgun. buckshot doesnt spread as much as some people think at close distances. if your in a neighborhood then the mini 14 can travel pretty far. even through the perp. so you gotta think about your neighbors too.

MLeake
April 17, 2011, 05:06 PM
... if you drive ten or fifteen miles south, to the Deerfield/Pompano city line, you'll meet all sorts of folks whose neighborhoods have gotten a lot worse over the last ten or twenty years. Many if not most of them can't afford to move.

It's nice to think everybody should just up and leave, and head for someplace nicer. It's often not an option. In the current economy and real estate market, it's even less of an option for many.

riverwalker76
April 17, 2011, 05:18 PM
Whatever you decide to protect your family and home with do not become overzealous in the use of your firearms on your property.

Last week a mid-20's male knocked on my door at 2330 hours. I always go to the door armed at this hour, unless I am expecting someone.

I saw him through the front door, but opted to go around through my garage, and I told my wife to lock me out. I then instructed her that if she heard anything to call the sheriff.

I then hit the garage door opener, and the guy walked around and entered my garage within 20 feet of me. He then reached for his back pocket, and I drew on him. He almost wet and soiled his pants!

He brought out an iPhone, and I asked him why he was here. I withdrew my pistol, and he said that he was wondering if he could park his broken-down truck on my property for the evening.

You can see how this could have turned into a really bad situation! I instructed him to never enter anyone's garage, whom he didn't know, and walk toward them without being asked to enter at ANY time of the day or night. Then I told him never, under any circumstance to reach for his back pocket before being greeted!

I guess the moral of this story is to not draw your weapon until you are absolutely positive that the person is hostile. However, in my situation, how was I to know? :confused: Someone with less training and a hot head might have fired before seeing what he was bringing from around his back.

threegun
April 17, 2011, 06:15 PM
I gotta tell ya guys...if the neighborhood is getting so bad that you have to be concerned every moment that someone or something is going to come busting thru the door/window, it is definitely time to move. A man's home is his castle and thus should not become his prison. My house is my retreat where I can feel safe...don't confuse this with complacent. I have a state of the art Alarm System, a 4 legged early warning system, and live in a very small gated community where someone or something out of place is immediately noticed. Almost everyone has a dog and when they all start barking at 3 AM, everyone is out of their beds and investigating.

I, too, keep a loaded gun on my person at all times and there are indeed guns hidden about the house but I don't worry about going to the mail box trying to decide if I should take my AR or Shotgun.


If a single group of armed perps begins to hit an area, should I move? Deal with the threat until it is no longer a threat then resume normalcy. In your case normalcy involves always carrying a sidearm. Should you move because you think it is bad enough to warrant a sidearm all the time? I know folks who feel so safe at home that they don't carry anything while at home.

2damnold4this
April 17, 2011, 07:11 PM
Moving isn't in the cards right now. I also can't afford to buy another firearm at this time.

I did go shooting today and patterned the shotgun with four buckshot loads. Two were Remington #1 buck, one was S&B 00 buck and the last was S&B's #4 buck. I was surprised at how quickly they spread with all being at least 15" to 20" at 10 yards. I think I'm gonna stick with the Mini since I'd rather not spray buckshot into a neighbor's house. Most of the homes here are brick and the one directly across the street is unoccupied. There are kids living in the only nearby house that isn't brick, so I'd better be careful. Hornady's 55 grain TAP did fine in the Mini. I can hit multiple targets much quicker with the Mini than I can with the 870 probably because of my lack of practice with the shotgun.

I did learn a bit more about the home invasions. The last two took place late in the evening or early morning hours. People who were outside their residences were forced inside at gun point. The first home invasion seems to have been an attack on a drug dealing acquaintance of one of the robbers.

It's not practical to tote a rifle on my back while mowing or gardening here in the subdivision but knowing more about the robberies makes me think that the criminals aren't likely to strike during the day. If I'm wrong, I'll have to rely on the G26 if caught outside.

Sport45
April 17, 2011, 07:56 PM
People who were outside their residences were forced inside at gun point.

Carry your CCW all the time. Have the wife lock the doors while you're outside. If someone tries to force you inside at gunpoint put up a fight and don't go inside. You are the perimeter defense and letting armed adversaries into the house is the last thing you want. The wife can barricade in the house to protect the daughter.

Time is on your side. The last thing these guys want is a long confrontation outside the house where anyone can see and respond.

Nnobby45
April 17, 2011, 08:24 PM
We've had some recent home invasions near our neighborhood and they've got me thinking that I might not be adequately prepared. It seems these three well armed criminals like to catch people outside their homes and force their way in at gun point. My daily carry piece is a G26 inside the right front pocket and that seems less than desirable against three guys with some of them carrying long guns

That was, and still may be, a favorite tactic of crimminals in RSA (S. Afr.) Often dressed in a nice suit, a carjacker robs people as they arrived home in their driveways.

Don't know whether most culminate in a car jacking or home invasion (which also means rape)--or maybe both, but in our country, a home invasion would be the likely result with bank accounts being the target as well as home valuables.

Crimminals in Latin America now grab people off the street and drive around to various ATM's cleaning out bank accounts. They cruise looking for people.

And some more sophisticated gangs select their victims more carefully and Xfer money from the victims' accounts to theirs via lap top. The victims don't usually survive.

Not to get side tracked with crime in foreign countries, but we're seeing more of that kind of stuff here, also, and we'll see more in the future..:cool:

Onward Allusion
April 17, 2011, 11:03 PM
2damnold4this
Moving isn't in the cards right now. I also can't afford to buy another firearm at this time.

You already have a Glock 26. If you haven't already, get a few Glock 17 or 19 mags and wear the 26 on your person along with a full mag pouch.

AH.74
April 18, 2011, 08:15 AM
I then hit the garage door opener, and the guy walked around and entered my garage within 20 feet of me. He then reached for his back pocket, and I drew on him. He almost wet and soiled his pants!

I don't get it. Rather than addressing this from inside the home where you were safe, you go out to meet the stranger late at night and expose yourself to danger. He also gets to see everything in your garage when you opened the door. Did you know for sure he was alone? What if he hadn't been, and there had been someone else waiting?

Did you at least report the incident to the police, since you actually drew your gun on him?

2damnold4this
April 18, 2011, 10:51 AM
If you haven't already, get a few Glock 17 or 19 mags and wear the 26 on your person along with a full mag pouch.

I do have a few G17 and one G19 magazines. Perhaps I could carry one or two in a pouch in my left side pocket.

Nnobby45
April 18, 2011, 08:13 PM
OK, did the poor guy get to park his truck on your property?

mnero
April 18, 2011, 08:31 PM
mowing the lawn strapped with a mini 14:(I'm going back to the mountains; there all ya have to worry about are the dang game wardens.

oneounceload
April 18, 2011, 08:48 PM
You have SIX dogs and you're worried?......sounds like a good excuse to get different dogs...............you have to worry more about drunk UGA fans in Athens than anything else

really, you carry a G26 in your pocket? Tell me how - at 6'3" I haven't found ANY garment that doesn't print

around windows - pea gravel and thorny bushes do the trick, otherwise motion lights etc, good dogs -vall work

Nnobby45
April 18, 2011, 09:44 PM
mowing the lawn strapped with a mini 14I'm going back to the mountains; there all ya have to worry about are the dang game wardens.

Why would you worry about Game Wardens?:p;):D:):D

2damnold4this
April 18, 2011, 09:49 PM
I don't think drunk UGA fans are responsible for the troubles we've been having lately.

It's not hard to carry a G26 in a pocket so long as you aren't dressing too tight. While it is obvious that something is in my pocket, the holster I use makes a square outline.

I expect the two Chihuahua mixes, the hound and the big mutt will give me warning if someone tries to break in the house. The other two dogs aren't going to be useful for warning or protection. The thing I was worried about most was a group approaching while I was outside but they only seem to be doing that late at night.

Cruncher Block
April 18, 2011, 10:18 PM
First do everything possible to make your home an unattractive target: Lighting, dogs, good deadbolts with plate screws that go deep.

After that, I'd personally grab the Mini 14 over the 870 if all else failed. However, I would probably choose something other than ball ammo and I would make sure the rifle is reliable with it.

This will probably re-launch another carbine vs. shotgun debate. I've thought through it carefully, done some research, and decided the carbine is a better choice for me. Others will probably disagree. They aren't going to change my mind and I doubt I'll change theirs.

Sport45
April 18, 2011, 10:57 PM
This will probably re-launch another carbine vs. shotgun debate.

Probably not. I think this is more of a tactics debate than a tools debate. Use whatever floats your boat.

Dr. Strangelove
April 19, 2011, 12:53 AM
I don't think drunk UGA fans are responsible for the troubles we've been having lately.

Nope, that's more parking in your yard, peeing on your bushes, puking on everything, then leaving a bunch of trash everywhere.

I'm innocent of three of the four above offenses, but I will pee on anything that will stand still long enough... Go Dawgs! :)

2damnoldforthis, Shoot me a PM if you need a free, uncrowded, safe range to shoot on.

mnero
April 19, 2011, 07:16 AM
It was a joke nobby, although I have known a subsistance hunter who was arrested for poaching cause he took a deer just 200 yards off his property, but it was a joke. I guess if you are just looking for something in everyones post to complian about, you won't have any trouble finding something. We are a nation of 350 million, rather diverse souls; sorry I am from the mountains and may have different experiences and opinions then a 'flat lander'

FireForged
April 19, 2011, 03:21 PM
I am not going to carry a firearm when I am at home. That is not to say that I dont have one close at hand but I am not going to walk around like a armed sentinel when I am trying to be at peace. That being said, my Wife and I have a plan. We pay attn to what is happening around our home and we look out for each other. We also network and communicate well with neighbors we trust. We each have specific jobs during a crisis and we know what they are.

We have dogs and they are one of the most important protections that we have. Not for attack purposes but for a warning alarm. We have always had large herding dogs because they are very very vigliant after dark and naturally alert to threats vocally.

We do have a good alarm, lighting system and landscape design that works against would-be prowlers. lastly, we have the house guns.

9mm
April 19, 2011, 03:25 PM
If you need a rifle/shotgun to check your mail then it times to move. If you need a handgun to go to your mail box, thats every day safety.

Nnobby45
April 19, 2011, 08:20 PM
It was a joke nobby, although I have known a subsistance hunter who was arrested for poaching cause he took a deer just 200 yards off his property, but it was a joke. I guess if you are just looking for something in everyones post to complian about, you won't have any trouble finding something.

Didn't comment on any one's post but yours, but point taken. I've changed the post to a more friendly reply since you were just joking.:)

440SAW
April 19, 2011, 09:34 PM
We've had home invasions here as well; the worst. Wife and daughter are getting training. Different arms at different locations within the home.
Carry always on or close; but I am one of those that think it should remain a surprise to the BG; never let them get too close but close enough to know intent.
Have a plan if they do get in the house: where does everyone go: to a location where the BGs have to come in and be met with enough force to cause them to withdraw quickly; those that are left if any.
Prey it never happens. Never drop anyone if they are taking things or leaving; that is the goal for them to leave and remember this is no place to come back to.
You will have to live with the results in any case and in the right or wrong it ain't so easy as some think. The BG is the one to cross the line; you are just the consequence. That makes the line an easy thing to watch.