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View Full Version : This is why I have a problem with all this HD talk.


mnero
April 16, 2011, 10:24 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42621540


The guy shoots some poor smuck for accidently pulling into his driveway, then he barracades himself in his house and the police are forced to arrest him. Now an innocent man, looking for his friends house, is in critical condition and police officers lives were placed in jeapordy, because of the long standoff. All in the name of home defense.

For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.

redstategunnut
April 16, 2011, 10:28 AM
The police officer didn't kill anyone and I suspect that behind this story is a mentally ill man, not a man who was merely a firearms and self-defense kind of guy.

mnero
April 16, 2011, 10:33 AM
Maybe he was a nut, probably. You see I have a job, where occasionally, I knock on a wrong door, forget the drive way and more then once I have had a pistol put in my face or pointed in my direction. No one fired or even looked like they were really expecting to or wanted to, but it worries me, lol. I don't carry on my job. I am certain 99% of our poster are responsible and restrained in their defense of their dwellings; it is the 1% that worries me:D

I have posted, sevral times, how I don't trust the police; I don't, but I want to be clear: I RESPECT them for what they do and don't do(restraint is a tough and potentially dangerous thing) and I like cops just fine. The ones I know are regular guys who do a very irregular and very demanding job.

old bear
April 16, 2011, 10:41 AM
I too sometimes believe that there are a number of posters who spend way to much time on the internet feeding their Walter Mitti dreams. I also believe that these folks make up a VERY Small percentage of gun owners and members of this or other forums. I also feel that some of the “scenarios” are so far out that they would never happen.

All of the above being said, I still believe that proper training and or exchanging ideas is one of the best ways to avoid a tragic situation you are referring to. So, I scan many of the posts, really read a few, and seldom do I offer advice. I take much of the advice offered here cafeteria style, I.e. look at if something looks good try it, if not move on to the next item.

overkill0084
April 16, 2011, 10:44 AM
So because of this "article" everyone talking about HD is lumped into the crazy "get off my lawn or die" catagory?
I've had people pull into my driveway looking for some place. I have yet to fire on them. In fact, I've never even had to display a firearm. Seems to me your trying to paint us all with a pretty broad brush.

mnero
April 16, 2011, 11:16 AM
I think I did give credit to 99% of us as responsible; is that really everyone. 99% means 1% i have concerns about 1 PERCENT read my post before you jump all over them; please!

Mobuck
April 16, 2011, 02:09 PM
I'll be starting a new job May 1 that will involve visiting farmers' homes over a wide area. I plan to make sure they know I'm coming and what time to expect me. Beyond that, I'm not real worried about a confrontation arising from arriving at the wrong house or becoming lost and stopping for directions. Most rural residents are less aggressive about such things than urban dwellers who are constantly harrassed by hoodlums. That said, I would actually expect a farmer to be more actively protecting his property but less likely to blast away w/o knowing the details.

mnero
April 16, 2011, 02:31 PM
I expect you'll we fine. I lived in Feyette County Ill. for awhile, in the middle of farm country. We all had shot guns, but like you said, no one is looking to shoot anyone. I always left my door unlocked there, I did live on my sisters RV camp though and it is very quiet there. Unfortunately my job requires knocking on doors in central maryland about 20 miles north west of Baltimore city:(

overkill0084
April 16, 2011, 03:39 PM
"For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen."

How am I to infer 99% to 1% out of that statement? 1% equals "Too many people...", I was unaware of that. Furthermore, how am I to get a "sane" home defense lesson out of the listed article? Some unstable guy goes batpoop on a random stanger, and HD discussion is somehow called into question?

mnero
April 16, 2011, 03:49 PM
If you had read post #3 you would have not needed to infer. It could not be more explicitly written. Your comment was posted after that. As for HD dwelling on tactics is not very helpful. A reliable weapon, a basic exit plan(if practical, in many houses it just isn't, especially apartments), good nerves and aim and lots of range time is all you can realistically do, unless you are a police officer or a commando or someone else who is forced to face dangerous situations in order to do their jobs.

PawPaw
April 16, 2011, 04:36 PM
What a tragedy.

Both the linked article and this thread.

Obambulate
April 16, 2011, 05:01 PM
Any time you go on somebody's property uninvited, you should be wary. It just makes sense. You should also expect some percentage of homeowners to show you a firearm while they ask you to explain your trespass.

mnero
April 16, 2011, 05:20 PM
yeah I never got too upset the few times I have been greeted by a weapon; I left, well I did every time but the one time I had the right place. Now greeting someone you are expecting with a loaded 44 revolver is just plain rude:Dbut I got over it.

kgpcr
April 16, 2011, 09:59 PM
I am more afraid of some of the keyboard commandos here far more than i am of the bad guys. Some people on the board are paranoid and that scares me. They precieve everything as a threat and are armed. Some of them with 3 guns and a boat load of ammo. I never carried more than my M-16 and a .45 when i was in the Marines in a war zone

stonewall50
April 16, 2011, 10:03 PM
Well living in an apartment complex is an interesting deal for me. Strangers knock on my door ALL the time. I actually on one occasion was standing naked in my living room (getting boxers out of the dryer...I don't about anyone else, but when it is winter time nothing beats a fresh pair right out of the dryer..oh all of my roommtes were gone as well), and the door was flung open by an "intruder" who turned out to be a VERY sexy female I had never seen in my life. She was told she was roomming in MY aparatment, but she had the number off and was the level above me. Yes my upstairs neighbor who I see all the time has seen me in nothin but what God graced me with upon my birth.

Lesson there is a)lock the door lol. b)dont stand naked in the living room c)mistakes can happen.

But on a serious note the situation all depends on HOW the person enters the area and MOST people on this site probably know that. But not everyone does and I am sure you know that.

@KGPCR:
I understand, but don't mistake being well armed for being crazy lol. I plan on owning as many guns as a wife allows(so basically how many lies about the price can I get away with and how many excuses I can make up lol), but I will only be relying on the trusty 870 and my 9mm for self defense. Everything else is for play.

Jim243
April 16, 2011, 10:46 PM
Here's a little piece of advice. If your not invited, stay off other peoples property. Most do not like supprise guests or uninvited strangers.

Jim

ClayInTx
April 17, 2011, 06:37 AM
If you are a door to door salesman then you gotta expect grief. No one likes cold-call door to door.

If you’re calling on leads you need to get directions before hand. Get house description and what kind of car is parked outside, if one is. Of course, you should know the correct address.

Don’t get too upset about things you read in some forums because we have a lot of who I believe are Forum Ninjas who would probably pee their pants in a real show down. Although TFL seems to have a more reasonable group of participants. I don’t see a lot of Forum Ninja talk on this site—some at times.

As for the article in the OP, it’s a bit dicey to pull into anyone’s driveway at 9:30 PM and not know where you are. If 9:30 PM is your normal visiting time then you had better know where to go or change your visiting hours.

Vt.birdhunter
April 17, 2011, 06:44 AM
This is why I have a problem with all this HD talk

I dont understand, some loony opens fire without provocation, and this has to due with HD discussions here because.........?

Please dont throw the rest of us into the same category as the shooter in question.

I still believe that proper training and or exchanging ideas is one of the best ways to avoid a tragic situation you are referring to

Darn right, chance favors the prepared mind.

TailGator
April 17, 2011, 08:33 AM
Leaving one's house to fire on someone who did not present a viable threat is not home defense, not self defense, and not defensible in any way. Discussions on this forum, and current laws governing the use of firearms, make it clear that responsible ownership and use of firearms preclude such actions.

mnero
April 17, 2011, 09:20 AM
I don't think it is reasonable to assume this person was unstable. He may well have been, but the odds would actually support a more mundane explination. He was drunk or just very anger over a non-related problem or just a 'hyper-vigiliant' person. These are far more common then a mental illness so extreme that you would lose your sense of reality or what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. So my problem is the 'hyper vigiliance' we had one poster who suggested he puts his hand in his 'gun pocket' any time he is near someone he doesnt know. I doubt the poster is unstable, but really would any of you feel the need to clutch a weapon because you were near someone you don't know? If so then you may well be the next 'nut job' that we read about. I assume as I have already posted that 99% of us would not feel the need to clutch a pistol just because we were talking to a stranger! So maybe you all see my concern now? You don't have to be crazy or 'evil' to make the mistake the person in this article did.

mnero
April 17, 2011, 09:28 AM
Jim I wish I could, but my job demands that I disobey your otherwise very prudent advice. My advice is to read the post by the fella that survived combat with nothing but his M-16 and a .45 semi-auto pistol. I made it with just the pistol, medics don't get m-16, especially navy corpsman. It has been my experience that the Navy doesnt trust us 'sailors' with too many small arms:eek: To the guy who wants to own as many guns as his wife will allow; me too!~ I love to collect, expecially lever action rifles, and I love to shoot! I wish I could buy near every rifle I see, but like you said there is the wife to consider LOL

TailGator
April 17, 2011, 09:35 AM
You don't have to be crazy or 'evil' to make the mistake the person in this article did.

Crazy, of ill intent, poor training, poor discipline, insufficient knowledge of firearm laws, all combine badly with guns. The discussions that take place on forums like this are, for the majority of the participants, part of the educational process that decreases the risk of such things happening. It seems to me that your problem should not be with "HD talk" but perhaps with people who do not talk and think about responsible use of firearms in self defense.

mnero
April 17, 2011, 09:40 AM
tailgator; you are right! The title of this post was poorly chosen. Discussions on the subject can only serve to illustrate the positive and negative aspects of this topic. If it weren't for my job I doubt I would be so concerned. I can't imagine having to do what the police and other goverment agents have to do as part of there job; they must have better nerves then me:D

Sarge
April 17, 2011, 09:52 AM
Here's a little piece of advice. If your not invited, stay off other peoples property. Most do not like supprise guests or uninvited strangers.

Jim

Brother, you ain't kidding.

I did 12 years as the investigator for a prosecuting attorney and one of my duties was to locate, run down and serve 'reluctant' witnesses, who local deputies/process servers had failed to serve. This job took me everywhere from the ghettos of KC and St.Louis to 'deliverance country'. On a couple of the latter I discovered that the locals not only knew where these people were, they just flat weren't serving them. So I went alone, on the authority of a special process server appointment (good statewide) and only called the locals when things went to hell in a half-second.

In the worst areas, I learned to get in and out before 0900. Usually by the time they figured out what happened, I was already six miles down the Interstate ;)

PH/CIB
April 17, 2011, 10:25 AM
I carry all day and have a gun on a nightstand at night, what I do not understand is why anyone answers the door at all? Unless it is a fireman or a policeman in uniform on my doorstep or a neighbor or family or friend or some little kid with parent selling girl scout cookies or boy scout popcorn, I never answer the door, I just figure it is someone up to no good with something I don't want or need. I would not shoot anyone unless they broke into my home.

I also never answer the phone, unless I recognize the number or they leave a message and I am interested in talking to them, I never answer the phone.

I also never answer or even open unsolicited or suspicious emails.

After surviving Nam I no longer go looking for trouble.

YARDDOG(1)
April 17, 2011, 11:09 AM
Just Look at where that shooter is from :D ; )
Y/D

microman
April 17, 2011, 02:02 PM
Just read the story. Sounds like that guy's elevator did not
go all the way to the top.

Sorry for the innocent victim here.

threegun
April 17, 2011, 02:27 PM
I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.


And is this supported by the huge volume of these types of shootings? Surely if your assertion is correct then there would be many of these types of shootings to back up your concern.

So my problem is the 'hyper vigiliance' we had one poster who suggested he puts his hand in his 'gun pocket' any time he is near someone he doesnt know.

Hyper vigilance and breaking the law are two different things.

BTW who was injured by the poster who put his hand on the gun around strangers? I have personally accessed my handgun discretely because of a potential threat that turned out to be an innocent. The problem we as CW carriers face is the pounce style attack. This is when someone simply walks up and punches/attacks you violently then robs you. Defending against this style of attack is very difficult. While I don't feel the need to access my firearm for every single human I get close to, the poster in question may have a different set of concerns. Perhaps a handicap or disability. To these types of carriers they must be ready to defend against every normal person or face being quickly overwhelmed. Us normal folks can offer up a defense to most potential attackers. We have a luxury that they simply don't enjoy.

Bottom line is everyone will have to justify their actions. If you act prematurely it wasn't because of this or any other forum. It certainly wasn't because a member palmed his firearm around strangers.

A reliable weapon, a basic exit plan(if practical, in many houses it just isn't, especially apartments), good nerves and aim and lots of range time is all you can realistically do, unless you are a police officer or a commando or someone else who is forced to face dangerous situations in order to do their jobs.

No this is not all you can realistically do. You can develop tactics used by those professionals you spoke of. You can learn them right here on TFL in a HD talk forum. From how to corner to gun retention. You will learn how to mount a proper defense everything from cell phones to lights to how to hunker down.

Guess what you won't see......a single member advocating the preemptive shooting of a stranger in your dad gum driveway!

If I sound aggravated my apologies. I just hate it when my quest to become better at self defense with a firearm somehow gets twisted into something like this.

Mello2u
April 17, 2011, 03:00 PM
Post #18 Vt.birdhunter

This is why I have a problem with all this HD talk
I dont understand, some loony opens fire without provocation, and this has to due with HD discussions here because.........?

Please dont throw the rest of us into the same category as the shooter in question.



Post #19 TailGator

Leaving one's house to fire on someone who did not present a viable threat is not home defense, not self defense, and not defensible in any way. Discussions on this forum, and current laws governing the use of firearms, make it clear that responsible ownership and use of firearms preclude such actions.

I have to agree with these posts.

Hook686
April 18, 2011, 01:58 AM
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.

sonick808
April 18, 2011, 03:33 AM
This guy is not in the same galaxy as your average gun owner / prepared citizen. What he did has nothing to do with discussing HD

Vt.birdhunter
April 18, 2011, 05:53 AM
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.

Hook686, I disagree with the general idea of this thread, but that is a really good point; youve got me thinking.

Dwight55
April 18, 2011, 07:35 AM
One of the first things we learn in the ministry, . . . anything that is done, said, sung, written or even hinted at: there is an agenda behind it, . . . and the agenda is precipitated by the person's perception of events.

The word "perception" is the key, . . . as events are often never what one thought they were.

I believe this situation is very probably one of those. The shooter did not sit in his Lazyboy, . . . loaded handgun on his lap, . . . awaiting someone to come into his driveway, . . . just so he could go shoot him.

There is more to this story than we see at this point, . . . and you can bet your last cartridge that HD hasn't got any place in this shooting. Think drugs, gambling, a vendetta, drunkenness, . . . lots of other things to explore long before we begin to blame HD as the culprit.

As an example: what precipitated the original post? Could it be an inordinate fear of people sticking guns in his/her face, . . . ??? Yep, . . . there was an agenda behind that original post, . . . and if it was simply aimed at HD, . . . then most likely the OP's perception is wrong, . . . as it certainly had nothing to do with traditional HD.

May God bless,
Dwight

jhenry
April 18, 2011, 07:44 AM
I agree 100%.

In addition, there is really is no way to have normal HD discussions that will have a substantive positive effect on the 1% he claims to be wrapping the posts around. IN FACT the 1% pretty much IS the reason we have concerns about personal defense at home and while out. The 99% are not the problem.

mnero
April 18, 2011, 06:36 PM
Why would fear of having a weapon drawn on one, be 'inordinate'? Due to the neccesities of my occupation, I must go to peoples houses; sometimes they are not happy to see me and I have had several weapons 'put in my face' as you say it. I would be a fool not fear a weapon leveled in my direction. In all those cases the person was, at least in his or her mind, 'defending their homes'. You are right about one thing, though, everyone has an agenda; I certainly made no effort to conceal mine. But inordinate:rolleyes:NO I ain't going no where with no one who ain't afraid to be shot:D oh and Dwight; your welcome:)

Ringolevio
April 18, 2011, 10:33 PM
Let me chime in here...

I've done a good bit of door-to-door sales work, and even more repo'ing and collections (not repo'ing cars out of driveways, but knocking on the door and asking folks to either pay up on the spot or kindly surrender the merchandise).

Besides carrying a clipboard and not dressing like a hoodlum, the tactic that has served me well has been to smile! I smile as I walk up to the house, and I smile throughout the entire encounter. I especially smile as I explain that failure to resolve the problem will surely make it worse, and I smile even more broadly if they give me any kind of guff. And that really unnerves them!

mnero
April 19, 2011, 07:10 AM
Ringo; collecting old debts is what I do. They are rarely happy to see me and a smile doesnt help much, a little, but what really helps is the firm hand shake and a fair minded attitude. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to get past the gun toting home defender first. I don't carry for just the reason that, when two are carrying in a situation where no one really wants to fire a weapon, usually no one gets what they want. I find a positive attitude about the advantages of paying your debts and a immediate presentation about how they can pay on their own terms so long as they are able to pay something each month is more effective then a lot of badtalk and threats.

I still say it is damn near impossible to have an 'inordinate' fear of being shot in the face and frankly I would have expected a preacher like the one who basically was saying I am a coward(no coward would do my job or volunteer to be a navy corpsman) to be a little more understanding. I ain't no 'hero', but I ain't a coward either, I guess if you are not 'Rambo' in some peoples eyes you must be a coward:D

BlueTrain
April 19, 2011, 08:12 AM
It seems to me that we need to worry more about good people doing bad things than the bad people doing bad things, which is assumed. There are lots of people who never did anything bad until one day, something snapped. Of course, afterwards, everyone says all the signs are obvious. But if that's so, then they might be coming after me.

threegun
April 19, 2011, 08:43 AM
I too believe that what people focus their thoughts, energy and planning on is what will manifest upon them.

Then I would have been robbed, shot, burglarized, caught in a riot, and all this while consuming my supply of stored food.

I could not disagree more with this. Preparing for an event/s doesn't make them happen to you.

If anything you are less likely to have these things manifest upon you if you are prepared. Just being focused AKA (situational Awareness) is proved to severely reduce victimization.

If the OP has a problem with HD talk in a forum titled Tactics and Training then perhaps the problem lies with him. There is no evidence that I am aware which would corroborate his claim. Ignoring these threads will both resolve his problem and allow those of us who find them occasionally informative to be educated.

output
April 19, 2011, 08:52 AM
For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.

Here we go again…

There is absolutely nothing wrong with prepping, preparing, or discussing training and tactics (“what if’s”) in any way. Discussion, debate, and consciousness are good things. This is a good example of how one incident can be turned into something that it isn’t by one person with insecurities.

I think Dwight is on to something. There has to be a a little more to this story.

mnero
April 19, 2011, 12:29 PM
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger, another is planning on mowing the lawn with a mini 14 at his side and you wonder why I have suggested that some(I think I said 1% but boy it is looking like a bigger lot then that) of us may be abit over zealous. This was not an attack on HD although I admit the title was poorly chosen, but it is a question "why do some of us obsess on this subject" and what consequences such an obsession might have. It is ashame that what could have been a useful topic about restraint and responsibility has turned into an attack on the poster and the few who have agreed with what is somehow a controversial issue:rolleyes: Frankly after reading some of the responses here I am more concerned then ever. I had to chase away what I thought was an intruder once in my first apartment, I confronted two black fellas who had gotten in my front door, they saw me in the nudeLOL pointinga 12 gauge double barrel shot gun at them; they left they ran lOL they were maintainence and had the wrong place. I did not hear them knock and they let themselves in. I got a dog the next week! Thank G*d I showed some restraint. I wonder how much restraint some of yawll would have shown LITTLE from what I see here too damn little!:mad:

Skadoosh
April 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
it is the 1% that worries me

I worry about the 1% of any crowd...

mnero
April 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
you should! But this crowd seems a lot more dangerous then any normal one:mad:

Rifleman1776
April 19, 2011, 01:55 PM
I once had a job that required going onto rural area properties. Never had a problem. But there are ways to approach a house. Don't park too close. Always look for dogs. If you don't see activity just toot your horn. If you go to the door knock or ring then take a couple steps back.
If fact many farmers want you to toot before getting out of your vehicle. Some places the property owner will yell "Who's here?". A story has it that in Indiana they yell with their rural accent "Whosere?". Supposedly that is how Indiana got the nickname of the 'Hoosier' state. I dunno if it's true but it sounds like a good story.
On the job over time, I stopped at, literally, thousands of farms and rural homes. Never once had a problem. Got invited for coffee several times. And once a naked lady came to the door. Never had a gun pointed at me.

9mm
April 19, 2011, 02:28 PM
For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.

Wow, ANYONE doing this is a mental person.

This is a wrong attitude to have, you do not shoot someone just for pulling up on you're drive way, this man is beyond paranoid. If the guy started to break in then YES defend yourself. You can not just shoot someone for pulling into you're drive way.

FireForged
April 19, 2011, 02:40 PM
I am not going to condem the entire subject matter and fruitful debate of lawful SD simply becuase (1) person made a very bad decision.

Vanya
April 19, 2011, 02:47 PM
Leaving one's house to fire on someone who did not present a viable threat is not home defense, not self defense, and not defensible in any way. Discussions on this forum, and current laws governing the use of firearms, make it clear that responsible ownership and use of firearms preclude such actions.
And that's why it's a good thing that this forum exists, and why it's a good thing that the same "What should you do if..." or "What should I have done when..." topics come up over and over again. The more we discuss what makes for responsible gun ownership, the better the chance those discussions will make an impression on people who don't get it.

Sure, a few gun owners are "hyper-vigilant" and "obsessive" about defending themselves -- it's a matter of probabilities, just as it's a matter of probabilities that a few gun owners are out-and-out whack jobs who, in an ideal world, would never be let near a gun. And it stands to reason that a forum like this is going to attract some percentage of those people. And, yes, there have been a few members here whose posts are a bit alarming in that regard -- not to mention those whose "routine" chest-thumping and bloodlust just indicate immaturity, lack of familiarity with current laws, and thoughtlessness (and perhaps an excess of testosterone ;)), rather than pathology.

Granted, we can't fix the nut cases -- but I'd like to think that if those other folks stick around, some of them, at least, will learn better; and the ones who don't learn tend not to last around here, anyway.

So, better we should keep up the "HD talk," say I...

Onward Allusion
April 19, 2011, 05:02 PM
A few comments...

The shooter in the news story was clearly not your typical home owner who is concerned about their well-being. Who in their right mind would leave their house when someone pulls into their driveway and then proceed to shoot them multiple times? The guy was not of sound mind.

As far as the 1% comment. It's more than 1% of the population. There are about 7.3 million people who are on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole in this country. How many haven't been caught? :rolleyes:

If it were not for even keeled forums like this, some of the more gung-ho folks would/could do something really stupid because they never learned the proper strategies or the understand the consequences of certain actions.

threegun
April 19, 2011, 07:04 PM
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger

So what? The only reason you know is because he said so. On the street you would never know. It would have zero effect on you or anyone.

"why do some of us obsess on this subject"

Because some are more concerned than others. Some are in more danger than others. Some wish to be more prepared than others. Who are you to question our reasoning? Who are you to compare us to murderers?

I wonder how much restraint some of yawll would have shown LITTLE from what I see here too damn little!

So only you are going to act appropriately and its because you don't talk in the HD forums you are currently talking in..........smooth LOL.

jhenry
April 19, 2011, 07:27 PM
you should! But this crowd seems a lot more dangerous then any normal one

Interesting. Very classy.

Like most folks who project in this manner, it is done with little to no awareness of just how much of an insight it gives.

Southern Rebel
April 19, 2011, 08:28 PM
I confronted two black fellas who had gotten in my front door, they saw me in the nudeLOL pointinga 12 gauge double barrel shot gun at them; they left they ran lOL they were maintainence and had the wrong place.

Uh, I ain't the one pointing a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun at two innocent maintenence guys - just sayin'.............................


MY NAME IS SOUTHERN REBEL AND I AM AN HD ADDICT..............SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEASE!

mnero
April 19, 2011, 09:59 PM
they came in w/o knocking, what would you do. It ain't a nice neighborhood I live in. so I got a dog and stopped sleeping in the buff on hot nights:D

glockcompact
April 19, 2011, 10:36 PM
I didn't read all the posts so I apoligize for that. I just don't have the time but....

Maybe he was a nut, probably. You see I have a job, where occasionally, I knock on a wrong door, forget the drive way and more then once I have had a pistol put in my face or pointed in my direction. No one fired or even looked like they were really expecting to or wanted to, but it worries me, lol. I don't carry on my job. I am certain 99% of our poster are responsible and restrained in their defense of their dwellings; it is the 1% that worries me

I have posted, sevral times, how I don't trust the police; I don't, but I want to be clear: I RESPECT them for what they do and don't do(restraint is a tough and potentially dangerous thing) and I like cops just fine. The ones I know are regular guys who do a very irregular and very demanding job.


Please don't regulate 100% of us because of the 1% of us that are nuts.

Southern Rebel
April 20, 2011, 07:32 AM
they came in w/o knocking, what would you do. It ain't a nice neighborhood I live in. so I got a dog and stopped sleeping in the buff on hot nights

mnero, I probably would have done exactly what you did. There are, however, many in our society that would label us "overreacting gun nuts" attempting to use guns to make up for our inferior physical endowments. :confused:

I recognize that gun owners sometimes on gun forums approach the pulpit with a little more of a bravado attitude than is necessary. Perhaps that is nothing more than a delayed reaction to the frustration of prior years of preaching by liberal groups. Their advice regarding robbery, burglary, home invasions, etc. was "just give them what they want and you won't be harmed". Not only did that advice turn out to be deadly wrong on many occasions, but would turn us all into cooperative victims that is not even a normal reaction in the animal world when species attack their own kind.

Your reaction to my first post was what I expected and is a very mild form of what we see on gun forums - a need to voice our decision to not be a victim. Maybe some express the same decision with a little more aggressive attitudes, but testosterone can be a master if one so allows. ;)

mnero
April 20, 2011, 07:40 AM
Southern that was very well put. I agree with your post completely, and you are right most people here are very responsible from what I can see. People do tend to talk a big game and do what is right even when the talk and the actions are very different. I doubt the lad who claims to clutch his gun everytime he is near a stranger really does that; I hope not:D

threegun
April 20, 2011, 09:44 AM
they came in w/o knocking, what would you do.

Same thing you did. Get the situation under control and prepare to eliminate the threats if need be. Point is a home defense thread isn't going to change anything.

I had a similar situation here at the pawnshop I manage. A man walked through our back door (coworker forgot to lock it) which leads to a door right behind us which was wide open. My coworker and I were doing some paperwork on our computer terminals when this guy comes up behind us asking to pawn his laptop. Before he could say "pawn my laptop" I instinctively drew on him from sheer surprise. He complied by stopping his advance and once we figured out what happened we pawned his laptop.

Good people do the right thing. Bad folks do bad things. Neither is responsible for the other.

2damnold4this
April 20, 2011, 10:41 AM
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger, another is planning on mowing the lawn with a mini 14 at his side and you wonder why

Actually, I was thinking if carrying my Hyperbolic Illudium PU-36 Space Modulator so I could defend myself if attacked from orbit.

The fellow that suggested I mow the lawn with the Mini strapped on my back probably didn't know I was in a subdivision where I'd want to only carry concealed. It would be appropriate to have a rifle strapped to my back if I was out in the country on a tractor. I might have a chance at a feral pig or coyote while bush hogging.

I understand that you don't like having guns pointed at you but it's appropriate to discuss the topic of self defense.

mnero
April 20, 2011, 11:18 AM
i always carried a lever action .22 when i mowed the area of my sister camp ground where all the copper heads where. She would just run them over with the mower, but I just could not do that, a head shot is much more humane.

Edward429451
April 20, 2011, 11:48 AM
Sometimes it seems as if there's some obsessing going on on this board, but then I remind myself that this is the forum for such talk. Seeing as how it wasnt obsessive when I came searching for answers...I figure it is overload of the subject(s) for me. That's when I turn it off for a few days.

440SAW
April 20, 2011, 02:50 PM
I wonder if many who react to the posts, reading an article or seeing a TV report would actually do what they "feel" they would in the situation.
Our country place is "out there". No one should come up our road uninvited. Everytime they do, I get that sense of why are they here and I am not off alert until I know it is safe. But, I am also not going to shoot someone for coming up and getting out.
Breaking in, threatening, etc: that has to be dealt with according the the threat.
But, the line is clear; threaten me or my family, cross the line and make that threat one that could result in our loss of life and we will try to leave; if we can't there will be decisive action after a very brief warning.
But, shooting randomly is for idiots.

BlueTrain
April 20, 2011, 03:25 PM
Both one's attitudes and one's responses are conditioned by one's previous experiences and by what else happens to be going on in the neighborhood. Essentially, that is what forms your alert status. There is no reason to be on high alert, so to speak, if nothing has ever happened to you or any of your neighbors in the twenty years you've lived in the same house. If suddenly you start carrying around your gun when nothing has ever happened to your or anyone near, I don't know what to say, other than you have been sold a bill of goods. Something outside of your own experience has made you that afraid.

What can happen is sometimes is that "the neighborhood goes downhill," or words to that effect. Fortunately nothing like that has happened to me where I live. So realistically, I cannot justify doing very many of the things I read about here. I don't have a big dog (don't like dogs), don't hide guns in every room (that increases the chance one will be found and, besides, I don't have that many), I don't even have a shotgun.

Furthermore, home invasions are an invention of the news media, although it has a great sound. The legal term is burglarly. I do read the crime reports in the paper every week and sometimes it is interesting reading, though nothing very exciting happens very often. They seem to go out of their way to report the slightest thing, too. Someone pushes someone and runs away and even that gets reported. And this is in a county with 1,300,000 people, too, many of whom are from somewhere else (which, technically, includes me).

I do worry, though, about what the TV reporter would say if they knew what was in my basement.

youngunz4life
April 20, 2011, 03:28 PM
One of our posters says he clutches his gun everytime he is near a stranger, another is planning on mowing the lawn with a mini 14 at his side and you wonder why I have suggested that some(I think I said 1% but boy it is looking like a bigger lot then that) of us may be abit over zealous. This was not an attack on HD although I admit the title was poorly chosen, but it is a question "why do some of us obsess on this subject" and what consequences such an obsession might have. It is ashame that what could have been a useful topic about restraint and responsibility has turned into an attack on the poster and the few who have agreed with what is somehow a controversial issue Frankly after reading some of the responses here I am more concerned then ever. I had to chase away what I thought was an intruder once in my first apartment, I confronted two black fellas who had gotten in my front door, they saw me in the nudeLOL pointinga 12 gauge double barrel shot gun at them; they left they ran lOL they were maintainence and had the wrong place. I did not hear them knock and they let themselves in. I got a dog the next week! Thank G*d I showed some restraint. I wonder how much restraint some of yawll would have shown LITTLE from what I see here too damn little!

Frankly after reading some of the responses here I am more concerned then ever

frankly after reading that post I'm a little more concerned than ever as well.:D

not trying to pick on you, but you're stereotyping for at least the 2nd time since starting this thread. you're probably just paranoid yourself because your a bill collector. ps- I thought door to door collections ended decades ago?

all the best

justjim75
April 21, 2011, 11:44 AM
i like fast cars. i made mine fast (1995 volvo stationwagon, i'ts turbo-charged). now that i have spent all the time and effort and money to make that car fast i want to drive it fast. thats not always legal, but i do it anyway. what does that have to do with this thread? some people that do spend so much time and money and training on firearms find it hard to face the fact that they will probably never need them, and look for situations that arent there.

mnero
April 21, 2011, 05:07 PM
Younggun I kinda wish they had, but a lot of people just won't respond to any else. Going to the house and talking face to face with respect and understanding(being poor myself I do understand lol) is very effective, people often want to pay, but just need to be shown a payment plan they can afford. It is not such a bad job most of the time and I have never carried it is strictly forbidden on that job.

BGutzman
April 21, 2011, 07:47 PM
Not all of us are so jumpy as to blow people away for turning around in the drive way or knocking on the door..

Thats not saying we dont listen and pay attention but we understand people are people.

Now when its odd circumstances like two unannounced people at a unusual time of day or whatever or your gut tells you different we may go to a higher level of readiness but we still have to meet the requirements of the law in order to shoot....

Home defense is different than plain old murder.

mnero
April 21, 2011, 09:18 PM
Definitely different then murder, but in Maryland I bet it is manslaughter, but here they figure you can either run or surrender and wait for the police to save you:rolleyes:This state is pathetic when it comes to how it handles self defense cases, especially in Baltimore.

Deja vu
April 21, 2011, 10:43 PM
If I shot every one who knocks on my door I would be on death row by now.

I live in Idaho in an area that is very scenic but has no cell phone service. Frequently people break down and are forced to walk to my home (the only lights around) to make a phone call. I all ways answer the door armed with a gun in my pocket but I have yet to shoot any one and this happens probably 1-2 times a month. The roads have lots of hills so in the summer cars tend to over heat and in the winters it can be very slick.

It is a very long walk to Cell service and much more to town. I feel that it is my duty to help out if I can especially in the winter because people could easily freeze to death in the winters here and I don't want that on my concise. That is why I answer the door and I want to make sure my family is safe so that is why I answer the door armed.

jhenry
April 22, 2011, 07:29 AM
That is exactly what you should do as a decent person. Our humanity is a precious thing which should never be whittled away. It does not regenerate. There are for sure, people around who would figure those folks are not their kin or even anyone they know, and would refuse to get involved, even to place a phone call when someone is in trouble of some sort. At their core these types are pathetic on more than one level.

My place and property is also off the beaten path, but is not situated in such a way as to attract folks who break down. There is a gas station closer to the big road. In the 20 years since I bought this place I think I have seen 2 folks drive down my driveway (dirt and about 300 yards or so with no house visible till the end) by mistake. Other folks come upon the rare occasion looking for their dog/horse/calf/kid whatever. I always answer the door with a pistol in my back pocket. I view this simply as a prudent action, not an antisocial action.

mnero
April 22, 2011, 07:39 AM
I keep a double barrel shot gun by the door and .38 near my bed; that seems prudent. A peep hole in the door is required in this area as well.

If I still lived in Logan county West Virginia I would not hesitate to call the sheriff if I thought it was required, for anyone in trouble. Even here on the east coast in this G*D awful city, I would lend to anyone who needed it, my phone, help them change a tire, or give them a ride, at anytime of day or night, but to involve yourselve in the criminal activities of others by calling the police is dangerous. These criminals retaliate against witnesses all the time; especially the gangbangers. Baltimore is a dangerous place and if you feel a need to get involved in every crime you see, you are gonna be a very busy and very unpopular person. I am not a cop and the state of Maryland does not require it's citizens to intervene or even call the police when they see what may be a crime comitted as some states and juristictions do.

chadstrickland
April 22, 2011, 07:41 AM
Lol I just wanted to say that I completely agree with the dude who wanted to carry a minni 14 on his back while driving a tractor so he could get a shot off at a cridder...I use a 22 rifle when I worked on a farm and killed hundreds of those cowbirds..( dnt know the real name of them but there big white birds that ride on top of cows and eat bugs out of hay while u are bailing it...:)

jhenry
April 22, 2011, 11:53 AM
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

A wise man once said that, and truer words were never spoken.

It becomes easy to do nothing when doing something is not easy. It becomes easier when others do nothing as well. It becomes very easy at some point. You can even fool yourself into thinking it is the right thing to do. It is not the right thing to do. Refusing to make even ANONYMOUS 911 call when some other person is in some trouble, or when some worthless thug thinks he can do whatever whenever is simply pathetic.

A person who acts in that manner IS part of the problem, and is dancing to another's fiddle.

440SAW
April 22, 2011, 12:13 PM
It is interesting to see how folks in different areas of the country react to things. Or, fear things.
I can easily admit to fearing things, not running but fearing. And, taking action appropriate to the situation.
That doesn't include deadly force every time, or even drawing out: action equal to the situation. It makes you think though, that the action appropriate differs in places around our USA.
What a shame that urban areas are breeding such despots.
OH WELL, Happy Easter and Holiday to everyone.

mnero
April 22, 2011, 02:14 PM
In Baltimore kids chasing other kids witha taser is just 'kids having fun' sadly. You don't report that and you don't report on the gangs. If someone is breaking into your neighbors car or harrassing his kids, of course you would call the police. Even if you want to get involved in Baltimore, you are up against three things, Maryland's oppressive gun laws, the local DA's oppressive application of the law and the fact that Baltimore jurys will convict anyone even a home owner or business owner if they use a weapon to defend themselves or their property.

markj
April 22, 2011, 02:25 PM
Not all of us are so jumpy as to blow people away for turning around in the drive way or knocking on the door..


How about this, fell asleep on the recliner, got up 1:00am headed towards bed, my wife works nights and left at 5:30 so I thought I was alone. Got to the bed and threw back the quilt as it is a hot one and was not needed, a voice says dont uncover me it is cold. Bout crapped my pants, 1/2 asleep and a voice where no voice should be :) went and changed the shorts and got into bed but couldnt sleep after that.

So I am thjinking this happens a lot, most foks dont fret it tho, but if I was a nut job and had a gun abd pulled it and shot at that voice, why I would be a single man today.... :( and that would be a bad thing.

WhiskeyTango
April 22, 2011, 02:35 PM
The fact that this is being attributed to home defense talk worries me the most. Some crazy dip**** shooting someone for just being at the wrong house is so completely different than a normal gun owner defending against a criminal I'm having trouble figuring out how this thread even got off the ground. If I get a knock on the door after 8-9 o-clock at night, I bring my gun with me. That doesn't make me a wacko, it makes me smarter than the average joe. The guy who wants to wear his M1 Carbine to mow the lawn? More power to him, he has had a rash of very brazzen robberies in his area, and refuses to be a victim. Don't confuse an educated American trying to ensure that he lives another day with some crazy guy just because they both have a gun.

mnero
April 22, 2011, 03:37 PM
THe follow up on this story is as follows: the guy had a run in earlier with some party goers who wanted to park in his spot(I guess the house throwing the party was pretty parked in) he chased them off. later his neighbor can't find a spot cause, well like I said there is a party near by and the jerks used his spot. He parks in his neighbors drive way and when he raised his hand to waive at his neighboor who was coming out of the front door the guy thought he was raising a weapon and shot him. THe guy was tired, already angry and it was dark; he did a very dumb thing, but HE WAS NOT CRAZY! He was frustrated and I understand that, I feel bad for the guy and even worse for his neighbor. Thank G*d he is gonna recover.

Stevie-Ray
April 22, 2011, 04:12 PM
I am not going to condem the entire subject matter and fruitful debate of lawful SD simply becuase (1) person made a very bad decision. Game, set, and match, AFAIC.;)

specs
April 22, 2011, 04:58 PM
Like some of you, I live in the 4 miles out of town boonies. My house is at the end of a dead end road 1/2 mile off the county highway. In the daytime there is a beautiful view, so pretty that the area is called "Grandview". The problem is that we get a few "sightseers" each week well after dark until 10:00 or so. Nothing to see, no reason to be here, road is marked "No Outlet". They drive down here as if they own the place and then do a turn around and drive out the same way.

Point beiing that I always have a gun on my person, and also a P95 in the magazine rack next to the sofa. Paranoid? Don't think so. IDK if these late night tourists are just lost or looking for a victim, so I am always prepared.

BGutzman
April 22, 2011, 05:28 PM
For G*d sakes defend your families, but we are not served well, by obsessing on this subject. I fear too many people are sitting around, polishing their guns, just waiting for it to happen; itching for it to happen.

Not criticizing but I think your over reacting....

fawcettlee
April 23, 2011, 10:47 PM
Westminster?
A lot of guns there.

mnero
April 23, 2011, 10:53 PM
Westminster Md, yep plenty of guns; heck my collection alone would...:D Westminster England maybe not so many. I work in Baltimore city, as well.

fawcettlee
April 24, 2011, 09:33 AM
Yup. A LOT of guns in Westminster...Md that is.
You should be getting hazard pay for doing what you do out there.
I certainly don't want to see you.....professionally that is.
:-)

therewolf
April 24, 2011, 09:41 AM
I own a few guns; only the CCW under my thumb is loaded

normally,especially at home.

The problem here was faulty threat evaluation, plain and simple. The guy

made a very poor decision. Perhaps he should put up his gun once he is

tired, drunk, or angry.

I generally don't come to the front door with a gun. Generally speaking, I

don't want to shoot anybody, and they don't want to die.

So I can't tell you what to do, but what I do;

1)Not using or handling guns when my judgement is impaired, sort of

like driving-

2) Not keeping extra loaded guns around-

3) Situational awareness and careful evaluation of threats-I fully realize

that in my neighborhood, I'm at much higher risk of shooting a neighbor

or having a ND than being involved in an actual HD scenario.


All that said, what is with this insane pre-occupation people have with

whether or not somebody turns around in their driveway? Get a hobby, for

God's sake.

mnero
April 24, 2011, 10:00 AM
Good post wolf:Dand Faw you are right, you don't want to see me profesionally; however, last I checked my records, you don't have any obligation to me;)

SocialAnarchist
April 24, 2011, 05:53 PM
I am a strong advocate of home and self defense. I believe it is my right to protect my life and my family's life.

I just as strongly believe that does not give me the right to shoot anyone that steps on my property, especially if they show no sign of aggression. The thought process that allows people to believe that ANYONE that steps on your property uninvited is there to do you harm, and thusly you have the right to shoot them, does NOT advance the rights of gun owners and DOES perpetuate the thought that gun owners are a bunch of blood thirsty crazies just waiting to pop a cap in someone's ass.

Face it, people will accidently pull into the wrong driveway, they will walk up to the wrong door, they will need help and go to the first house they see, or they may be door to door sales people. None of those reasons for someone being on your property gives you the right or a reason to shoot them.

charles-smythe
April 24, 2011, 06:33 PM
twice i was placed in a postion where I could have 'legal' shot someone...once i was holding a S&W model 55 (.45acp) about 3-feet from the intruders head as he came in my bedroom patio window (I lived on the second floor)...I restrained myself from shooting...he turned out to be a drunk 16-year old who thought he was climbing into his girlfriends window...he was so drunk that he was 1 building off...the other time I held a potential intruder at bay with a browing highpower 9mm...turned out to be my neighbors brother trying to get into her apartment (he was visiting her and forgot his key)...

steve54
April 25, 2011, 06:14 AM
Personally, I don't believe that a case of simple trespass during daylight hours merits an immediate display of force, including brandishing a firearm. It indicates a lack of assessment by the householder and may easily lead to problems

Stand off from the trespasser, confront them and ask them to explain their presence on your property and reassess. In 99% of cases no further action would be necessary

threegun
April 25, 2011, 10:26 AM
Personally, I don't believe that a case of simple trespass during daylight hours merits an immediate display of force, including brandishing a firearm. It indicates a lack of assessment by the householder and may easily lead to problems



This doesn't include inside your home I hope.

dajowi
April 25, 2011, 10:32 AM
Here's two stories about two local men who shot and killed an intruder.

The wife and 8-year-old daughter were home alone," "They were in bed. Her husband had gone out for the evening. The wife heard a noise coming from the living room. She got up to investigate and discovered an individual passed out on the couch. She got her daughter, left the residence grabbed the telephone made a call to 9-1-1, and then she went looking for her husband.

The wife drove to a local tavern where she found him and brought him home and that's when the shooting occurred. The intruder was shot with a high powered hunting rifle. Both the men were drunk at the time of the shooting. Homeowner made conflicting statements to investigators.

A county grand jury returned manslaughter and homicide charges against the homeowner - trial still pending.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The homeowner told police during the investigation, he saw a man, subsequently found to be a 40-year-old local, (and one time high school track star), in a ski mask running from his house. Taking a pistol with him, the property owner drove after suspect and eventually caught up with his pickup in a field near the house.

The property owner told police that the man tried to run over him with his truck, then got out of his vehicle and came at him with a shiny object in his hand that he thought was a gun. He shot the masked man, hitting him at least six times according to a coroner’s investigation, killing him.

The coroner found that the man was shot at least twice while he was on the ground. The shiny object in his hand was a wrench. Police found the home had been burglarized and that nothing was missing.

Grand jury decision found that there was not enough evidence to charge him with a crime.

The head of the sheriff office’s Criminal Division, said people often are not prosecuted in this county for shootings on their property. "In the past, there have been a number of cases where they did not indict," he said. "The county has historically not prosecuted people for shootings on their property. I’ve worked here for 23 years, and the shootings I can recall (of this nature) have not been prosecuted."

There are a lot of local residents who followed the case and talked to or knew the people involved who came to the conclusion that this was more of a murder than self defense. These guys were acquaintances, they were business rivals and the homeowner was well known.

With most people having firearms in their houses, and a large number of people with concealed weapons we have a low violent crime rate in the county. Many households don't lock their doors. People leave their cars running, doors unlocked while they go to the market or post office.

In any home self defense situation you need to do two things following the shooting.

#1 GET AN ATTORNEY
#2. DON'T SAY ANYTHING

SocialAnarchist
April 25, 2011, 12:26 PM
dajowi,

Both of the cases you posted seem clear cut to me. MURDER.

The first guy is passed out on the couch.

The second guy had fled the scene.

Unless you have a different definition of agressive action it seems shooting either of them was completely unnecessary. In fact shooting the guy on the ground is blatantly unnecessary.

MLeake
April 25, 2011, 12:47 PM
Going back to the original situation that started the thread, the homeowner didn't react badly to somebody he thought was just going to turn around in his driveway. The homeowner thought somebody he'd had words with earlier about parking on his property had come back.

Party at one neighbor's, not enough parking, people had been parking on the homeowner's property, and he'd had an argument with people he told to leave.

So a car pulled into his driveway, he thought it was them again.

Turned out to be another neighbor, whose own driveway was blocked by party-goers' cars. Homeowner not only didn't recognize the neighbor in the dark, but when the neighbor raised his hand to wave hello, the homeowner thought it was one of the guys from earlier, now back with a weapon and starting to point it.

Fatal over-reaction by the homeowner. Not smart to go outside for potential confrontation over parking. After first encounter, he should have just complained to the police.

But he didn't shoot at what he thought was somebody using his driveway for a turnaround.

Criticize for what was done, not for a pet peeve that didn't actually occur.

markj
April 26, 2011, 02:59 PM
Fatal over-reaction by the homeowner

Anger makes it hard to see what is real. When I boxed, I used to try and get them all upset, then I could work em and get a win. Angrier they got, better I could hit them. Same thing here? maybe, but at the very least he should have made sure of his target.

mnero
April 26, 2011, 10:12 PM
Unfortunately the follow up story didn't come out till 3 or 4 days later, or I would not have started this thread:o He clearly over reacted, but once outside if he waits to be sure it may be too late, better to just let the police handle it or just ignore what is realy just a minor nuisance.

MikeNice81
April 27, 2011, 04:27 AM
Mnero
But this crowd seems a lot more dangerous then any normal one

Then you can easily point your browser in a different direction. You are not forced to come here and insult the posters of this sub forum.

So far (and I haven't read the whole thread) you have called or implied that the posters here are mentally ill and some how criminally idiotic. All of this because you've had bad experience in your job and read one article.

It sounds to me like you might want to seek a little help for your paranoia. The truth is that the average shooting involves a previously convicted criminal using an illegally owned gun. I hardly believe that deomgraphic information describes even 1% of posters on TFL.

mnero
April 27, 2011, 07:26 AM
What would I be paranoid about? I suggest you look up the clinical definition of that word, before employing it. I never suggested anyone was unstable or criminal; others suggested that about the guy who was the subject of this post(or at least he was supposed to be) turns out he was by the official accounts neither unstable or criminally minded, just upset and a bit to fast on the trigger. I realize it bothers some people to hear anyone question anything involving lawful gun ownership or the employment of such weapons; I can only say to such individuals that always supporting the NRA or always opposing any weapons restrictions or always objecting to any debate on the subject is just as narrow minded and unproductive as those who want to ban all weapons or arrest anyone who ever employed one. It is easy to attack the poster, much easier then addressing the issue here; which is "hypervigiliance" :mad:

I have read 1000's of articles on many subjects, I like most people have had many jobs and bad experiences on all of them, at times; you, by your own admission have'nt even bothered to read all of the thread and yet you mischaracterize me as paranoid and accusatory, the very things you say I have did to the posters here:rolleyes:Perhaps you should look up hypocritical while looking up the clinical defintion of 'paranoid'

2damnold4this
April 27, 2011, 05:28 PM
This is the tactics and training forum. It isn't the forum where we debate reasonable gun control laws. This is the place we discuss home defense and its appropriate tactics and ramifications. This isn't the place we discuss gun control legislation. It's fine to say that people should be certain of a threat and not overreact in home defense situations. We should be careful not to attack the fact that we discuss home defense here.

BGutzman
April 28, 2011, 02:48 PM
I can only say to such individuals that always supporting the NRA or always opposing any weapons restrictions or always objecting to any debate on the subject is just as narrow minded and unproductive as those who want to ban all weapons or arrest anyone who ever employed one.

Im sorry but unless your 1000 articles is coming from the Brady Campaign I find it difficult to justify your statments, no insult intended.

The fact of the matter is there is nothing you can do with a gun that is not already regulated at some level and the requirements to own a gun are very clear. How many other things in life may require you to pass both state and federal background checks and in some cases may include some level of review of your previous mental health?

What more could you possibly want in the way of gun laws, the fact of the matter is we still live in at least a somewhat free society and you simply cannot regulate what a person is going to do.

For example we have lots of laws about murder but guess what those laws dont stop people from comitting murder.. The same is true about cars, how many laws do we have about speeding and drinking and driving and guess what..... people speed and drink and drive.

The answer is not more laws, more laws stop no one who is willing to violate those laws.

Further while driving your car and drinking are not actually spelled out rights in the "Bill of Rights" the right to keep and bear arms is a spelled out right and in my personal belief the duty of every honest citizen.

If you dont like guns thats fine but dont expect people who legally use and enjoy guns to agree with you. There are other forums for people who dislike firearms, this however is not one of those weakminded forums..

chadstrickland
April 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
I wonder how many admins are waiting to see when this thread gets out of hand :)....wet noodle attack eminent I think

mnero
April 28, 2011, 05:26 PM
So we agree then, some gun laws make sense? Or perhaps I'm weakminded because, I agree with a few of the gun laws, not many, but a few. I have noticed how easy it is for some to throw around personal insults, while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

chadstrickland
April 28, 2011, 05:33 PM
I agree with some gun laws...I don't have a problem getting a background check for buying a rifle...we don't have waiting limits here...I dnt like the 3 month full auto stuff...and the magazine limits and bs stuff like that..but some restrictions are needed

MrWesson
April 28, 2011, 05:35 PM
Its simple its called home defense not driveway defense.

If I shoot someone in my driveway not directly threatening me then game over I am a murderer and should rot.

If they break into my house(doors always locked) then game over for them.


The OP/this thread has troll written all over it.

mnero
April 28, 2011, 05:40 PM
In MD. you can buy 1 pistol a month, 1. To some that seems reasonable; who needs more then 12 pistols a year, but what if I am a collector and because of this law I have to leave 2 good deals on the table cause I can only buy 1 pistol. Next month the guns I wanted will probably be sold.

It is a foolish law, when it would make alot more sense to simply investigate anyone who buys 5 or 10 .380's and has no ffl. He may be legit, but he probably is reselling; a short, discreet investigation would answer that question. Why make every gun collector pay the price for a few idiots.

I do find it very unfortunate that, when a person expresses an opinion different from some, that some people resort to personal attacks like weakminded or troll, I don't even know what the "blank" a troll is, outside of Grimm's fairy tales that is. People need to show a little tolerance for those who enjoy shooting, enjoy their rights to weapons, but still find some middle ground with those who do not. I support some gun regulations GET OVER IT!

chadstrickland
April 28, 2011, 05:46 PM
Dang man that is a bummer..you can buy as many as you like..all day everyday :)

mnero
April 28, 2011, 05:49 PM
It's MD half old fashion and half extremely liberal. The Liberal half wins every time:(

chadstrickland
April 28, 2011, 05:57 PM
And I for one am guilty of personal attacks..but 99 percent of them are at the brady campaign people on face book....and I don't attack mnero because I can see things from his perspective ...a little rash maybe...but it had good intentions..lol he should have expected such replies from a place like this tho...just as the people from the brady campaign are so set in there ways we are set in ours..that tends to keep things balanced ..I don't agree with them and they don't me :)

mnero
April 28, 2011, 06:04 PM
I already admitted that I shouldn't have started this thread:o

2damnold4this
April 29, 2011, 10:25 AM
I support some gun regulations

So does the NRA.

Capt Charlie
April 29, 2011, 12:10 PM
As so often happens with these long threads, this one's wandering all over the place, and the original material's been pretty well covered.

Given that, and the fact that the tone here is starting to take on ugly qualities, I think it's time to put this one to bed.

Closed.