PDA

View Full Version : Hand to Hand tranisition to Gun


stonewall50
April 14, 2011, 03:20 PM
I am not exactly sure how to word this, but something I practice farily regularly is how to act in a close up encounter. I do martail arts (Kali and BJJ, but I have experience in boxing and mma[which gives me some limited Muay Thai]) so I have some base knowledge of how to act in a hand fighting situation and I frequently spar in Kali and with one of the Karate classes(which focuses on real self defense and not point sparring).

Well I own heavy bag and an airsoft pistol that is roughly the same size as my XDSC. What I do is I get the bag swinging and step away with my back turned. I step back into the bag's swing line and as soon as I feel it touch I spin and try to get 2-3 quick fast and hard punches on the bag to get it moving away from ME and I draw down(I dont load up the pistol because I would rather not richochet an airsoft pellet back into me lol). What do yall think about this drill? I have been trying to think of a way to adapt it so that I can practice with friends as well.

Basically the adaption is to use gloves(bout mma size), but my problem is that when hitting someone else with a "clearing punch" as I call it, I want to aim at the nose, jaw(bout midline), or throat. I want to essentially drive them away and give me time and I would rather not break bones of friends or throat punch them. Do yall have any ideas on how to practice this in connection with a gun(I do own airsoft so I am not using actual guns)?

Also I am curious if anyone practices these tactics? I know that a good shove is nice, but sometimes it won't produce what you want and can take YOU off balance as well(I have done this SO many times in my life during the different martial arts). What are some other good drills to help you get to your gun? Remember that you won't always be able to pull your gun out and that you might have to defend yourself against someone who is up close and that they MAY be packing a knife or a stick(both of which are VERY effective if used correctly and can be just as lethal as your gun).

mnero
April 14, 2011, 03:31 PM
If they are that close and are not employing a missle weapon; then your tactics are sound. A good shove(which if done properly will not effect your balance) or a punch or short kick as you describe, seem like the thing to do, if you are attempting to get the distance needed to employ a missle weapon. You may want to try an exercise where you roll away from your apponent to avoid any hand held weapon he may be employing and then draw a pistol.

SatCong
April 14, 2011, 05:44 PM
Considering your training, you want to be careful not to escalate the confrontation by employing a gun. If you shoot the attacker when you could have rendered him harmless in unarmed confrontation, you may have trouble defending your action in court.
If he draws a weapon, shoot him to the ground, then shoot him until he stops moving.

Mike

Jeremiah/Az
April 14, 2011, 06:11 PM
You turn your back on the bag, so I assume you are talking about being approached from the rear. I prefer using the elbow to the temple area of the head. This will stun anyone & is very hard to defend against. It can be faster than a punch, as you do not have to turn to deliver the blow. I would not try this on a friend tho! LOL :eek:

Japle
April 14, 2011, 06:42 PM
….. you want to be careful not to escalate the confrontation by employing a gun.

If he’s attacking you and you’re armed, I’d assume he intends to take your gun and kill you with it. In Florida, that justifies the use of deadly force.

That’s why I keep my weak hand in my front pants pocket on the grip of my P3AT when I’m close to people I don’t know.

I’ll take 7 rounds of CorBon over any MMA stuff you can come up with.

mnero
April 14, 2011, 07:36 PM
wow glad I don't live in FLA; after all you don't know me and I don't want to get shot with 7 rounds of anything. My old man made me study jujitsu for 12 years, only joining the military got me out of it; he should have just bought me a bazooka. He would have saved himself alot of money and me alot of bruises.

5whiskey
April 14, 2011, 11:30 PM
This is a very good topic. Most of the time I "mentally rehearse" SD situations, it usually involves an aspect of transitioning from hand to hand to my firearm (or other tools on my bat belt).

Krav Maga and some of the other newer "martial" studies focus some time on this. There's a very effective move from Krav Maga I learned in OS 1 that allows you to lock a firearm or knife used against you against an attackers body. From there, you can disarm them or go for your weapon. It's not a "push off", but instead you close distance to nearly nose to nose. Of course, while training to learn this you figure out how to encounter it after 5 or 6 times.

As for "pushing off", you would probably be far better off with a simple (ala Judo) move to move your opponent off-balance for a moment. This is a very good topic, though. Especially for LEOs.

stonewall50
April 15, 2011, 01:04 AM
At SatCong: my answer to the court would be that my training tells me to NEVER give someone an opportunity to attack. If I make an action it must be quick, decisive, and hard. Anything less and I am dead.

@Jermiah/AZ: I only do the back turn to the bag because I don't want to know exactly where the bag is at when I turn to face it. Though I suppose I need to consider what I would do if I am approached from behind. In any case I did forget to mention that I am proficient with elbows and knees(I guess i did say muay thai) and one or 2 of those on the temple works very well.

@Japle: Not sure of your age or ability, but to each his own I reckon. I don't want someone seein me get ansy. My hands usually stay in a defensive posture(foward and maybe slightly up...if they wanna talk I simply make gestures with my hand...I am a hand talker anyway). I don't want to make any motion that lets them know there is a gun at my waist.

@5whiskey: My instructor for BJJ was also a competitor in judo down in Brazil for MANY years. I am pretty familiar with judo. I will say that during grappling it is not all that effective against a wreslter stance, but that head foward wreslter stance is great for taking elbows and punches.

Also I am in Kali and one of our drills is a hand to hand drill that essentially ends up with us moving into each other nose to nose trying to get a good position. Of course what you need to remember with nose to nose fighting is how much more dangerous it is. A knife at nose to nose is going to be as effective as a gun, especially if employed with someone who understands basic knife tactics(where to slash and where to stab). I will say that Krav's principles are very effective though in that they emphasise hard nose fighting and that is VERY important to self defense. You want to hit back hard and fast.

smince
April 15, 2011, 11:18 AM
If you practice Kali, check out some of Mark Denny/Dog Brother's stuff.

Particularly the Die Less Often series of DVD's.

DLO I and II has some material right in line with what you are describing I believe.

Japle
April 15, 2011, 12:15 PM
Posted by stonewall50:
Japle: Not sure of your age or ability, but to each his own I reckon. I don't want someone seein me get ansy.

I’m 65 years old, 5’9” and 142 lbs, but that doesn’t matter much. I have no intention of letting anyone attack me or my family.

I’m not obligated to give an attacker any consideration at all.
I’m not obligated to give him a “fair fight” or refrain from “escalating the level of violence” if I feel threatened.
He made the decisions that led to the threat. It’s his responsibility. If he gets hurt, it’s his own fault.
If I feel threatened, I’m going to start looking real “antsy” and the guy who’s threatening me had better pay attention.
If he threatens me or my family with death or great bodily harm, he’s taking a chance of getting shot, repeatedly, until the threat is ended.

Here in Florida, it’s perfectly legal to use deadly force to stop an attack as long as you’re somewhere you have a right to be.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 12:44 PM
... that's all well and good, but to be able to employ your weapon, you have to be able to deploy your weapon.

If you're older and smaller, and in arm's reach, there are pretty good odds I could prevent you from drawing long enough to let me draw my own and put you down. (Not intended as a threat, just a reality check.)

Learning how to escape an initial grab could make all the difference as to whether you get to draw your P3AT and put any of those Cor-Bons to use.

skifast
April 15, 2011, 12:47 PM
My thoughts are to keep my hands open and up. When I make the decision to go, the first choice is a chin jab with my reaction hand. Immediately after the strike, I am moving back and drawing. Yes, I do practice.

garryc
April 15, 2011, 02:04 PM
Actually you would be served by using a heavy bag for this drill. You act like you train, so if you restrain yourself all the time in drill you will likely restrain yourself in actual reaction. On the street restrictions don't exist like they do in LE. In my case we are taught a face threat, rather than an impact that would be in a red zone, such as a hammer blow to the side of the head. ( of course, due to the dynamics of the situation, what the officer intended to be a face threat resulted in impact, unintentionally.)

What you are doing with this action is taking him off balance and distracting him while you move out of his line of power. That is either to escape or take other action. In the case you have on the street you want to use every bit of force you can. You want to hit him with enough force to kill him if you can. The harder you strike the more time you have to take other action, but you must be conditioned mentally to let it go with all your might. For that use a heavy bag and a glove on you hand.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 02:14 PM
A face threat should be thrown for impact; if the BG responds as desired, great; if not, he gets hit in the face. Good either way.

Japle
April 15, 2011, 03:30 PM
Posted by MLeake:
... that's all well and good, but to be able to employ your weapon, you have to be able to deploy your weapon.

If you're older and smaller, and in arm's reach, there are pretty good odds I could prevent you from drawing long enough to let me draw my own and put you down.

As I said in a previous post,

“That’s why I keep my weak hand in my front pants pocket on the grip of my P3AT when I’m close to people I don’t know.”

In any case, both my carry guns are concealed. An attacker won’t know I’m carrying one gun on my belt on the strong side, much less that I have a gun in my weak hand when he starts the attack. Why would he try to prevent me from drawing if he doesn’t know I'm armed?

Question: Do you think I’d have better success with a grab-escape maneuver (which may or may not be effective) followed by attempting to draw, or with a gun I’m already holding?

Look guys, a BG who attacks people for a living has a lot of experience in fighting on the street. He isn't interested in a fair fight. He isn’t going to give you a chance to get your guard up or get your feet set the way you do in the gym. He’s going to sucker-punch you or smack you with a piece of pipe when he thinks you’re not expecting it. There isn’t likely to be any conversation.
He sees you the way you see the foil wrapper on a Hershey’s Kiss. You’re holding what he wants and once he has it, you have no value.

Stay aware. Be ready to respond. Most important, look like you’re aware and ready to respond.
BGs are looking for soft targets. Don’t be one.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 03:33 PM
Japle, the problem is not one of gripping the gun, it's one of getting it out of your pocket.

And yes, if a guy acts defensive, and puts a hand in a pocket or behind his back, I immediately assume a weapon.

Pocket draws, when under attack, are tricky. Hopefully you have practiced this.

Japle
April 15, 2011, 04:02 PM
Posted by MLeak:
Japle, the problem is not one of gripping the gun, it's one of getting it out of your pocket.
And yes, if a guy acts defensive, and puts a hand in a pocket or behind his back, I immediately assume a weapon.

Getting a P3AT out of the pocket of cargo shorts isn't usually a problem. :)

I don't understand your comment about the guy acting defensive. Do you mean hostile?

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 04:08 PM
I mean, by the time somebody decides to put a hand on a weapon (surreptitiously), the odds are they are evincing some nervousness or anxiety. If you are good at looking casual while you do it, then it might not be so obvious.

Other cues: Men with fanny-packs; men with photographer's vests.

I sometimes pocket carry, myself, with either a PM9 or 442. There are times it's the most convenient way to carry. But I've practiced drawing from the pocket (it's nice to be able to do this stuff in the back pasture), and it will never be as fast as a strong side IWB or OWB draw.

Japle
April 15, 2011, 04:45 PM
I mean, by the time somebody decides to put a hand on a weapon (surreptitiously), the odds are they are evincing some nervousness or anxiety. If you are good at looking casual while you do it, then it might not be so obvious.

But I want it to be obvious that I'm aware of what's going on and concerned about it. Screw "casual"!

BGs don't carry their guns in fanny packs or under photog vests.
Has there ever been a case of a mugger wearing a fanny pack? Maybe in France.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 04:47 PM
But if you make it obvious, and you are at close range, now you have to pull the weapon from pocket despite resistance.

Get an inert weapon, put it in your pocket, and have somebody you know try to stop you from drawing. It could be eye-opening.

Japle
April 15, 2011, 04:55 PM
But if you make it obvious, and you are at close range, now you have to pull the weapon from pocket despite resistance.

No I don't. If he goes for the hand I have on the pocket gun, all I have to do is release the gun while drawing my XDm 9mm with my strong hand, then shooting him full of holes.

MAIN POINT HERE:

BGs don't want a time-consuming fight, they want an easy mark. If you look like trouble, they're likely to wait for someone else.

The worst thing you can do is appear unaware, avoid eye contact, look unresisting.

If you look like food, you will be eaten.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 04:58 PM
But what if you are unaware?

Everybody says they are always in condition yellow. Great in theory, and yet how many really achieve that?

Meanwhile, any BG worth his salt will try not to telegraph his intentions.

There's always value in learning how to create space, time, and distance when you've been attacked or grabbed. This is true no matter what you are carrying.

Rob228
April 15, 2011, 05:14 PM
There is a "retention" drill that comes close to mirroring what you are doing with the heavy bag. This was taught in a military CQB course so it may not be something that will be deemed appropriate force in a court of law.

The drill starts with you standing just inside of arms length from your attacker (cardboard echo targets for us). You use the heel of your weak hand to strike the attacker, the target being their chin. This gives you the distance you need to draw with your strong hand. At this range, with your body properly oriented into the target you can fire a double tap into the targets chest from the #2 position in your draw (pistol held high up by your strong shoulder). The pistol is then brough into a two handed grip and a third round is fired near point blank into the attackers T zone.

Needless to say we ruined targets pretty quickly with this drill. It was a little nerve wracking at first, point shooting the two rounds into the chest with your weak arm still extended. I could be mistaken, but depending on your state, the follow up shot to the brain box will not be looked upon lightly by a jury, but the technique itself is pretty solid.

smince
April 15, 2011, 05:52 PM
Japle,

Get a pocket-sized AirSoft gun and a service size to mimic the way you carry both pistols. Then have someone role-play a bad guy and 'get in your face' (with suitable protection, of course). See how well your ideas work.

Force-on-Force scenarios are a realistic test of whether your tactics will work or not.

There is a reason I do not pocket carry :cool:

YARDDOG(1)
April 15, 2011, 06:06 PM
If grabbed from behind a quick headbutt ought too get you some oppertunaty
to bring knee foot ect, JMO ; )
Y/D

Japle
April 15, 2011, 06:22 PM
It’s funny. You guys seem to think I haven’t thought this through and practiced. :rolleyes:

stonewall50
April 15, 2011, 06:24 PM
@Japle: I am aware of the unpredictability. I know it sounded like I was attacking and for that please allow me to clarify. If I am approached by a stranger I can't put my hand on my gun cause I carry IWB at 330. I worry about a snag in a pocket carry, but if a guy is close I am going to use my hands(I practice against knives and pipes) to make space and get to the gun. It sounds like you have your own system you work on and as long as you can get it out fast then that is all that maatters. The last thing I want is for someone to be aware of a gun if they are asking directions(or someone else figure it out if they are watching someone ask for directions). But again this is all situational and thread discussion so no really reality based. I believe that it is alway good to know how to react if you can't get that gun out of the holster fast enough or if you are caught off guard because in reality that is always a possibility in the world we live in.

@Rob: The hand stuff you are discussing is totally legal, and if I am shooting someone state of Florida law (if I am not mistaken) says that I shoot to kill. That follow up brain shot is really circumstancial. If you train yourself to do that then there is no question what you do in reality. Also your line to the jury is that, "You never shoot to wound, always to kill." The reason this is important is because it makes it aware that shooting to wound puts lives in danger, but shooting to kill ends the situation.

@Japle Again: Lol...that is why I didn't question your method lol. If you practice it you know how it works. I don't pocket carry, only IWB so I am not questioning methods. I hve never held the P3 either lol.

MLeake
April 15, 2011, 06:26 PM
No, you don't shoot "to kill" in any jurisdiction in the US.

You shoot "to stop."

The most reliable way to do that is COM or CNS.

Saying you shoot "to kill" opens up cans of worms you do not want opened.

garryc
April 15, 2011, 09:36 PM
If grabbed from behind a quick headbutt ought too get you some oppertunaty
to bring knee foot ect, JMO ; )


Problem with that is that in close you don't have the ability to get any momentum. Also, tossing your head back exposes your neck to a full choke.

You should tuck your chin into his elbow. This gives you a pivot point to take control of his arm going to a balance break and into an arm toss.

smince
April 16, 2011, 07:30 AM
It’s funny. You guys seem to think I haven’t thought this through and practiced.What is your practice regimen? How often?

Japle
April 16, 2011, 03:21 PM
What is your practice regimen? How often?


Fortunately, I’m a member of a club with lots of outdoor shooting bays and no “range Nazis”. Once the ROs get to know you and know you’re a safe shooter they can trust, they’ll let you go off on your own and use one of the bays for your practice.

I get to the range once a week, almost always on a mid-week morning. I can practice drawing from a pocket, shooting from retention position and whatever else I need to do.

HINT: Don’t try firing the P3AT from retention position with the gun upright. It’ll eject cases right into your face. :eek:
That’s not a mistake you make twice!!

MLeake
April 16, 2011, 03:27 PM
Ok, Japle, but how do you practice the opposed draw scenario? There's only so much you can do without a partner.

Erik
April 19, 2011, 02:06 AM
There are a variety of ways to create distance. The trick is what to do if you cannot create distance? Note, drawing is not always the best option, but if you feel that you must:

I've been taught to control the opponent's limb nearest the weapon you wish to draw. Failure to do so begs a counter.

MLeake
April 19, 2011, 06:28 AM
In contrast, I've always been taught to control the opponent's center of balance whenever possible. Problem with controlling a limb, is it leaves him with three others, if he is still on balance.

Skans
April 19, 2011, 07:49 AM
There are other hand to hand tactics available if someone draws a weapon on you at close range. It very basically involves a very fast strike to the wrist/arm of the attacker which is holding the weapon, then a fast follow up with a grab, forcing the firearm/attacker's wrist/forearm back toward the attacker's face. If done properly, the attacker is quickly forced to release the weapon and you have control of the weapon. At very close ranges, it is much quicker and more effective to draw your own weapon. I practice this with a group of people that I shoot and spar with.

For comparison, I've tried many times to draw my weapon in a mock close-up attack. I've seen others try as well. If the attacker is determined to kill you, I have found no way to draw my weapon and get the muzzle close to being pointed at my target fast enough before the attacker pulls the trigger. The "click" always comes right before I can even get my gun out of concealment.

So, what I'm saying is that I think the OP is right on track in incorporating various hand to hand fighting techniques, especially if confronted with a surprise close-up attack.

MLeake
April 19, 2011, 11:39 AM
... but one friend of mine does undercover narcotics street buys. He's also a jujitsu instructor.

He's had guns pulled on him on several occasions, at very close range. Rather, I should say that dealers have tried to draw on him on several occasions.

My friend has never drawn his sidearm. He's gone right for the BG. At least two ended up with broken arms. In all cases, my friend had the BG's weapon, and the BG ended up in cuffs and under arrest (in two cases headed for jail via the hospital).

I asked him why he never drew. He said in some instances he didn't think he'd have time (under cover garment, etc), and that generally he reacted from reflex.

Japle
April 19, 2011, 04:05 PM
Posted by MLeake:
Ok, Japle, but how do you practice the opposed draw scenario? There's only so much you can do without a partner.

I have two partners, both also retired military. We practice whatever scenarios we can think up, which is a pretty good variety.

MLeake
April 19, 2011, 04:24 PM
Japle, that puts you ahead of most people.

smince
April 20, 2011, 06:30 PM
Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting

Tom Sotis/AMOK 'Accessing Under Attack/Fighting For Your Gun'

SouthNarc ECQC

All great one-day or weekend courses on this very subject

neilstrauss
May 13, 2011, 05:34 PM
Interesting post. A good read.