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Bucks Gun Shop
April 11, 2011, 07:45 PM
Gentlemen:

There is no question based on available models, that the pump shotgun is more popular than the auto for home defense. My question is "Why"?

Most people site the occurance of a failure to feed as the primary reason. Well, I have over 10,000 rounds in my Remington 1100 and it has never failed to feed. Of course I keep it clean, but for a home defense weapon, how would it ever get dirty?

I would be curious to know the other reasons that people think a pump is better than an auto.

zippy13
April 11, 2011, 08:00 PM
My question is "Why"?Because pumps typically cost less.

oneounceload
April 11, 2011, 08:23 PM
And the money they save, they spend on all sorts of black plastic accessories.....................:D

jmortimer
April 11, 2011, 08:35 PM
Agree it's all about the $$$ as an FN SLP or M2 or M4 or 930 SPX will put out a whole lot of lead real fast.

mes227
April 11, 2011, 08:42 PM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

oneounceload
April 11, 2011, 08:53 PM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a..................

Deep, low gnarly growl from A Rottweiler or German Shepherd


There, fixed that for ya..............;):D

jmr40
April 11, 2011, 08:54 PM
Cost. And the ability to shoot a wider variety of loads that might not cycle an auto.

With good ammo a good auto will probably be less likely to malfunctin since it takes out human error. The trend is changing and more and more shooters are starting to move towards autos or carbines in 223 or pistol rounds.

egor20
April 11, 2011, 09:06 PM
$$$$ and/or preference, I had an Ithica 37 as a house gun for years, I now have a Benelli M3. The reason, dang if I know, other than I trust it, thats good enough for me.

LordTio3
April 11, 2011, 09:34 PM
If you train with your shotguns, you can pump your action upon the recoil of your shot. And in doing this, you gain the ability to put more lead downrange than your senses can even process in the same amount of time. Honestly, I'm not going to be using it to it's full capacity, I'm going to use my rounds sparingly anyway. For that reason, the pump sure is plenty. An auto action would just be gravy. And I don't really relish paying almost twice as much just for gravy.

~LT

Cruncher Block
April 11, 2011, 10:15 PM
1. Price

2. Tradition

Terry A
April 11, 2011, 10:50 PM
Personally, I prefer a Benelli M2 Tactical, which is a semi.

But, I think the overall quality of the pump shotgun is outstanding. Think of the old Winchester Defenders, the Ithaca 37, Remington 870, Mossburg 500 series...these are down right great, rugged, highly dependable & affordable shotguns.

Technosavant
April 12, 2011, 09:31 AM
They're considerably less expensive. For the price of a tactical type semiauto, you're talking two or three pump actions.

They allow for a wider array of loads. That high priced tactical semi that's all set up for heavy 00 buck and slug loads? You might choose a different load that won't function properly.

They're simpler. You aren't worrying about a dirty gas system, dried out O-rings, or anything else that might cause a freak failure to feed.

You have more variety in how you can prep the gun for action. With a semi, you either have to leave something in the chamber or it's two separate actions to ready the thing (retract the bolt, hit the bolt release). With a pump gun, you can leave the chamber empty and hammer down with a full magazine, and you can pump it to ready-to-use with your hands in their proper locations on the shotgun. No fumbling around.

What it comes down to is that they're easily had by somebody with most any budget and they can be counted on when the chips are down.

spacecoast
April 12, 2011, 09:57 AM
Under stress, I would think that you are far less likely to load a new round and pull the trigger unintentionally with a pump than you might with a semi-auto.

jmortimer
April 12, 2011, 10:34 AM
You can make the same arguments about DA revolvers and semi-auto pistols. The semi-auto shot gun is reliable and more effective- much faster shooting and less recoil. If I had the $$$ I'd have an FN SLP or Benelli M series or Mossberg 930 SPX.

Idahoser
April 12, 2011, 11:45 AM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round. I think it's likely that's the reason 90% of people recommend it. Foolish thing to do, though.

Chainman
April 12, 2011, 12:17 PM
Besides Cost...

The pump does have the ability to be turned into a smaller length device.

You can remove the stock and put a pistol grip on one end and take the barrel back as short as legally possible.

This is good and bad...good if you are going to be in truly cramped spaces alot...bad for controllability.

Remember on most semi-auto's you need a stock to enclose the recoil springs/tube, so no ability to go to a pistol grip without a stock.

On the front end, you do have to worry about cutting down too far and interrupting the gas ports (if gas operated) that cycle the piston.

As far as reliability I don't think there's much difference, I've been around every style shotgun made and in high pressure situations MANY people will short shuck the pump anyways. At least an auto you just keep pulling the trigger.

Felt recoil is alot less on an auto too IMO.

hogdogs
April 12, 2011, 12:26 PM
I would take a cut down single shot with 4 round shell cuff over an auto loader as my ONLY gun but I would own one and keep it ready as HD gun if it were not my only option.

I just like the EARTH SHATTERING reliability of a proven manual design that I am responsible for cycling.

My only current shotgun is a M-500 20 gauge. I could say that about an H&R single but could never say that about the auto loader I intend to own.

Brent

TheKlawMan
April 12, 2011, 12:55 PM
It does seem that a well maintained semi can also be reliable, but not quite as reliable as a pump. Also, I see my 870 as filling two related but separate security needs. The sbort term home defense situation and a long term defense/ survival one in which you may not only have to protect your family but also hunt to put food on the table. In a situation without ready access to gun smiths and parts I think a pump is likely to prove much more reliable, and especially if you find yourself in a situation where it isn't even that easy to keep yourself, much less a gun, clean.

Dave McC
April 12, 2011, 04:34 PM
Pump shotguns have been tested in combat since around 1900, and have built quite a rep for effect, reliability and durability.

OTOH, early autos were often called "Jamamatics" and less printable epithets due to probs with non spec ammo, too much oil, too little oil, no oil, wrong setup, etc. Bad form and technique was rarely mentioned, that also contributed to the myths.

Almost all of those probs have been ironed out, but the damage was done.

New autos are boringly reliable, unless you drop them in sand. But besides the folktales, an economic difference exists.

Decent autos run well over a grand new. I can field 3 or 4 870s for the same price, and have a proven platform that I know very well.

Get what you want, run 200 rounds of duty ammo through it glitchless. If
it does what you want after that, you're set, regardless of whether it shucks itself or not....

stonewall50
April 12, 2011, 04:39 PM
Deep, low gnarly growl from A Rottweiler or German Shepherd


There, fixed that for ya..............

Dogs are actually the number one fear of criminals(something I have heard a few times that I actually would believe).

stonewall50
April 12, 2011, 04:45 PM
TBH the pump shotgun has the 1)Price
2)Sound
3)Simplicity (This is of course in cleaning and all of that).
4)870 is the number 1 selling shotgun in history(over 10 million). I mean why go out and look for something over a $1K when you can get one of those used?

Also as far as speed of follow up goes...I can have a second round chambered by the time I am back on target with a pump. It all becomes instinct when you use the gun enough.

So basically if you want something with no frills that you can use anywhere then you pick up the pump 870 that your daddy taught you to shoot. I mean isn't that what we shooters gravitate too? Something that we are familiar with? Comfortable with?

dgludwig
April 12, 2011, 05:03 PM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

Don't rely on acoustics to ward off a committed assailant's plan of attack. More often than not, all the sound of a shucking pump does is to betray your whereabouts.

Bucks Gun Shop
April 12, 2011, 06:11 PM
Gang:

Interesting commentary.

Seems to honestly boil down to price which is important.

If there are others please add.

pato
April 12, 2011, 06:19 PM
1. Wider field of coverage.

2. Lower cost.

3. It is more intimidating to an intruder/assailant than an auto is.

this_is_nascar
April 12, 2011, 06:23 PM
I prefer the pump of my Remington 870 Express Tactical because it allows me to run whatever low-recoil/managed-recoil shells I'd like. In a semi-auto, that might not be the case.

In addition, the sound of loading the chamber from a pump just gives me goose bumps. You don't get that in a semi-auto.

TheKlawMan
April 12, 2011, 06:33 PM
The point raised by This Is Nascar is a very good one (the ability to use lighter loads) and especially if you have over penetration problems, as in an apartment or condo, although I doubt many consider it when chosing a pump.

The ability to eat any ammo, low recoil or dirty WalMart stuff, is even more important in a long term survival situtation where the selection of available ammo is limited.

Technosavant
April 12, 2011, 08:04 PM
Don't rely on acoustics to ward off a committed assailant's plan of attack. More often than not, all the sound of a shucking pump does is to betray your whereabouts.

I've heard this, and while true, the other information conveyed (along with your GENERAL whereabouts... Mr. Robby McBurglar won't know your exact location... he isn't DareDevil...) are little datums such as the homeowner knows there's an intruder, the homeowner is armed with a weapon of significant capability, and the homeowner is prepared to use said weapon on said intruder.

With the advantage of surprise gone, the home invader is now in an unfamiliar place with an adversary who is not only armed at least as well (probably armed way better, even) and knows the territory intimately. To say nothing of that homeowner having the law 100% on his/her side in most states.

But then again, keep in mind that chambering a round in a semiauto is not a silent action either, so location information can be deduced from that act as well.

freenokia
April 12, 2011, 10:03 PM
Gentlemen:

There is no question based on available models, that the pump shotgun is more popular than the auto for home defense. My question is "Why"?

Most people site the occurance of a failure to feed as the primary reason. Well, I have over 10,000 rounds in my Remington 1100 and it has never failed to feed. Of course I keep it clean, but for a home defense weapon, how would it ever get dirty?

I would be curious to know the other reasons that people think a pump is better than an auto.

My 1100 choked on one last time i took it out...First time in 15years:)...But I like pumps over autos for the same reason I like revolvers over semi's. They don't choke due to under/over powered ammo.

jmortimer
April 12, 2011, 10:15 PM
An 870 is more likely to jam than a top grade semi-auto like an FN or a Benelli assuming you have appropriate ammunition. The world record holding SX3 semi-auto will go hundreds of thousands of rounds with no FTF. I think the whole pump a shotgun action and the BG will pee his pants is way over rated. I'll take an FN SLP over any pump action for self defense - way faster, less recoil and probably more reliable with the right ammunition.

shooter1911
April 12, 2011, 10:47 PM
I think people who don't have experience with 1100s just don't understand. I have had my 1100 since 1967, and have hunted dove, quail, pheasant, and shot skeet and trap. In all that shooting I have had one ftf. That was due to a clogged gas port that was quickly opened with a tooth pick. In other words I forgot to clean my ports after extensive shooting one time.

One of the best features of the 1100 for HD is I can shoot 00Buck one right after the other with very little recoil, and I can practice with the lowest cost and power shells. Also there is no chance of short shucking a shell as is commonly experienced under stress with pumps.

Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun.

jmortimer
April 12, 2011, 11:24 PM
"Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun"
Yes you will.

Technosavant
April 13, 2011, 10:27 AM
I think people who don't have experience with 1100s just don't understand. I have had my 1100 since 1967, and have hunted dove, quail, pheasant, and shot skeet and trap. In all that shooting I have had one ftf. That was due to a clogged gas port that was quickly opened with a tooth pick. In other words I forgot to clean my ports after extensive shooting one time.

I have 1100 experience. Great gun. Wish they still made them in the many varieties (they keep killing it and bringing back different variants). However, there's more than just the gas system that can hang one up. The one I was using would not reliably feed the Federal value pack ammo; it would do the Remington and even the Winchester (the Win is notoriously bad stuff), but the Federal would hang up on the shell lifter for some unknown reason.

That's a failure that is not going to happen in a pump.

mathman
April 13, 2011, 10:39 AM
IMO it is cost and the fact that pumps have been around longer. If everyone grew up shooting Benellis (for example) then more people would prefer them over pumps. Pumps are cheaper and reliable...and this is enough for most people.

I prefer autos over pumps because they shoot fast and there is one less thing to think about (operating the pump).

The 'scary noise' that a pump makes is highly overrated.

shooter1911
April 13, 2011, 10:57 AM
I have 1100 experience. Great gun. Wish they still made them in the many varieties (they keep killing it and bringing back different variants). However, there's more than just the gas system that can hang one up. The one I was using would not reliably feed the Federal value pack ammo; it would do the Remington and even the Winchester (the Win is notoriously bad stuff), but the Federal would hang up on the shell lifter for some unknown reason.

That's a failure that is not going to happen in a pump.

Very true, but you shouldn't be using "Value Pack" ammo in any weapon for SD. As mentioned before I have had one hang up since 1967 in my 1100, and that's shooting everything imaginable, including value pack ammo. 1100s are just like any semi auto. Some are finicky and some are not. Luckily I got one I can trust with my life.

hogdogs
April 13, 2011, 11:05 AM
Mathman says...
I prefer autos over pumps because they shoot fast and there is one less thing to think about (operating the pump).

When you force yourself to practice enuff... Cycling the action on a pump and pulling the trigger is as second nature as brushin' yer teeth... No thought required...

Under hard core practice, I could walk my shooting arrangement lettin' rounds fly and the hardest thing I had to learn was to keep track of how many rounds were already sent downrange as I wanted to know when I was down to one last round.

Brent

new_scopeshooter
April 13, 2011, 11:08 AM
I have owned both types and have used both types for hd. The ideas of pumps being more reliable isn't a stretch from the truth. I have had rem 1100s that jam. But I have never had pump jam. Half or short jacking a pump can happen. Bottom line is you need to buy what you like(or can afford) and practice with it!! If you shoot ur auto or pump enough u will know what rounds feed the best and what pattern the best out of ur gun.
Never never buy a gun and leave it ready for use if you have never figured out how it works. And with what ammo!!
I now use a win 1300 with mag ext and a smoth bore slug barrel!!

Old Grump
April 13, 2011, 01:19 PM
I came late to the semi-auto owner camp but it has been as reliable as any other gun I have. My criteria is I use the one I am most familiar with and I can shoot 5 rounds on target faster with the pump than I can with the semi just because I am so much more used to it.

I have no problem using either and I have no intention of trying to scare a boogerman by cycling my pump. Both guns stay loaded with a round chambered because a gun unchambered is a club. The only thing a boogerman is going to hear is my command to freeze and identify himself. The only other sound would be a safety coming off and Bang if I don't hear or see an appropriate response. It won't matter to the boogerman which gun it is and it won't matter to me.

LordTio3
April 13, 2011, 01:39 PM
It's almost like no one remembers with THIS was the top of the line in home defense...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/boss_robertson_SxS.jpg

Since when did, "Give 'em both barrels" become obsolete in favor of a consistent wall of buckshot?

In all honesty, any model of shotgun is good for home defense. I also don't really see a semi-auto 12 ga as having a substantial advantage over any other shotgun design above a single-shot.

~LT

Technosavant
April 13, 2011, 01:40 PM
Very true, but you shouldn't be using "Value Pack" ammo in any weapon for SD.

Oh, no argument. Just saying that it's more than the gas system that can cause issues; if the shell coming out of the magazine doesn't trip the bolt release, you're hung up.

Murphy will show, and boy, is he a jerk. :D

TheKlawMan
April 13, 2011, 01:49 PM
What shooter1911 said about picking up an 18.5" barrel for an 1100 caused me to think of one reason a lot of us get a pump for home defense. Besides the reputation a pump has for reliability, how prevalent are short barrel semis?
To me an HD length is no more than 21" and the shorter the better.

TheKlawMan
April 13, 2011, 02:04 PM
I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

dgludwig
April 13, 2011, 02:20 PM
As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.

BigJimP
April 13, 2011, 02:21 PM
If I wanted a "Tactical fighting shotgun" ....I'd pick the semi-auto Benelli M-4 ...its a gas operated gun. And I hear it all the time in gunshops...its a great gun / but its too expensive ...and they don't offer enough "tacky - cool" junk to hang off it ....

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

They list at $ 1,799/and in my area they are selling new for around $ 1625. I think its a solid gun / I've fired a few of them at my local range / nothing not to like about them in my opinion.

I think the argument about pump vs semi-auto reliability is overblown / if you look at some of the better semi-autos on the market today ( not the $ 300 import specials ) .../ but old bias dies hard...
------------------
I just don't subscribe to the idea that everyone needs a "Tactical shotgun" or they are somehow under-gunned ...in the event of something / but then I don't think everyone needs a black rifle either ...

I realize I'm old school / but my primary defense is handled by a Wilson Combat 1911 chambered in .45 acp / and my backup sock drawer gun is a Sig 226 in .40S&W ....and if I have to fight my way to my safe ...there are any number of shotguns and rifles that can come out if necessary ....but an 8 round mag in a 1911 / if you practice with it weekly ( and I do ) is an excellent defensive weapon.

My other issue with many of the Tactical Shotguns / mostly pump guns...isn't really with the gun --- its with the owners - and there are way too many of them that get purchased because they look cool - and everyone thinks they "need one" .../ the owner and his buddies fire 20 rds ..maybe even 60 rds of OO buck with it / or slugs or whatever when its new ....then it gets put away / leans in the corner of a closet or somewhere ...for 5 yrs or more / without every being touched again.

They aren't particularly fun to shoot / they aren't any good at clays / OO Buck and slugs are expensive ( $ 60 for 100 rds or so ) ....and a lot of guys spending $ 250 on a shotgun don't want to spend another $ 60 to fire 100 rds .../ and I get it ....but if its a primary defensive weapon / and you don't train with it - don't use it .../ you're relying on the "image" of it being a perfect defensive weapon ...when you might just be kidding yourself...

Some guys do the same thing with handguns ....buy a gun / put 100 rds thru it ...put it away for 5 yrs ...and think they're protected ...its just as nuts !! Maybe its even worse / because the muscle memory to manipulate a handgun is probably tougher than manipulating a shotgun ....but its still nuts!

In my opinon --- if you think you need a weapon for defense ( and not everyone does ! -- or not everyone should ! --- especially if they aren't going to train with them !! .......but if you do ....buying a pump shotgun, or a good quality semi-auto shotgun ...or a good handgun ....can all be effective ....if you train with them and are competent with them !! Pump vs semi-auto shotgun makes no difference ...

I just wish more guys would think about the time they spend training and shooting vs what to buy .......and then leave it in a closet ! One of my boys is in his mid 30's ....and 90% of his buddies have purchased Rem 870's tactical shotguns ...and not a single one of them has fired their shotgun in well over 3 yrs. My son lives about 4 hours from me ....and we get together 6 or 8 times a yr ...to shoot some skeet, sporting, etc ...and do some handgun training with revolvers and 1911's, etc .... and its not a scientific study ....but in that group of young guys that goes with us to the range ....I just keep asking ...have you shot that 870 in awhile ...and its ...a slumped shoulder, hang head ....no ..... ??? I think its a one in a gazillion chance any of them will every need a defensive weapon ...or at least I hope so ...but if they won't train with them ...I wish they'd lock em up ...until they do.

I think if you ask among your buddies that have them -- its going to be a high percentage of guys that never shoot them ....sadly ...

Old Grump
April 13, 2011, 02:23 PM
I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

Relying on a sound to scare an intruder is counterproductive. What if it is a family member, you scare the bejesus out of him and he makes a sudden move towards their room and you mistake it for an aggressive move. You shot Junior for trying to sneak in after a late date and you didn't even know he was gone out of the house. Point is an unchambered gun is an empty gun and while I'm pumping the bad guy could be shooting.

If I yell freeze he has the opportunity to run, freeze or identify himself. Wrong response I only have to aim and pull the trigger. If it's multiple intruders and they are identified as intruders there is no warning clack-kathunk. Just a loud noise, a flash of light and a scream of pain from the unlucky guy who just caught a load of #4 in the side of his head. Advantage mine.

If I pump the gun first I have 3 or 4 guns shooting in my direction, advantage them.

stonewall50
April 13, 2011, 03:18 PM
+535 to Lordtio

There is nothing wrong with any shotgun save the single shot(which still would perform just fine). I have never had an FTF with my 870 in all the duck, dove, geese, turkey, skeet, and sporting clays I have shot. The only errors I recall were when I was younger and loaded a shell in backwards when my nerves were going crazy during a goose shoot. The BIGGEST issue with autoloaders is without question their reliability when it comes down to AMMO. Pumps will not have the same failure to eject issue with questionable ammo that an auto will. But if you are willing to put the time and effort and coin into buying proper ammo and testing it, then there is no debate on which is better. It remains shooter preference.

The issue of what is better must be stopped because to each his own. The fastest follow up shot from a shotgun will be from a double barrel anyway. There is a reason proffessional hunters in Africa use double rifles, not autos, pumps, bolts, or any of that on the big game. They use large bore doubles.

And again...not everyone can afford a $1500 dollar gun. I will take the $200 and spend that extra $1300 on ammo to practice with. That way it doesn't really matter if it is an autoloader or pump I will still have an edge because I fired $1300 worth of ammo out of a gun that I know I can trust lol.

TheKlawMan
April 13, 2011, 03:30 PM
Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.

edrice
April 14, 2011, 01:38 PM
One very important item I don't think anyone has brought up is the ability to combat load with the pump. Watch how fast this cowbay action shooter combat loads the pump - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw

You'd have a hard time doing that with a semi-auto.

Also, I was in shotgun course last year and the guy to my left had two jams during the course with a Benelli semi-auto. The instructor had to come over and help him untangle it each time. I was using a 590 and the only problem I had was I short-stroked it one time, but recovered quickly with almost no time lost.

Ed

Vince44
April 14, 2011, 01:54 PM
I have an 1100 and a variety of others. I like this one as far as a double barrel.

zippy13
April 14, 2011, 02:17 PM
I with Big Jim on this one. While I have various shotguns and a black rifle, my go-to HD guns are .45-ACPs.

oneounceload
April 14, 2011, 02:18 PM
I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.

And I'll disagree with this - get the safety button off, the REAL safety is between your ears - don't put your booger hook on the bang switch until you are ready to fire - whether over your dog or in your hallway - it is faster to put your finger on the trigger than to take the safety off and possibly move your grip

new_scopeshooter
April 14, 2011, 02:21 PM
I have experiance with the 1100 and I understand them. And yes the ones I have had jam.
In my opinion the win 1400 is a better auto then the 1100 rem. I turned one it to a HD
Gun with very little work. I personly have about 2000 rounds through it. That's after I got the gun when my father passed away. A caint even begin to tell you how many rabbits and birds he had shot with it. A much better gun the the new one win has out now.
Again this is my opinon

Old Grump
April 14, 2011, 02:52 PM
Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on. Fight is on as soon as they break into your house. It is up to them to deescalate it by surrendering or running away. I don't know about your house but I have lights that illuminate my house from kitchen through the dining room to the Living room. The only dark spots are the bedrooms and mine is in the middle of the house. They won't be able to see me but I will be able to see them unless they cut my power. Again I know my own house and people know they are free to come in my house but they announce themselves when they do. If they don't and it is dark thirty then they are presumed to be hostile unless they sing out.

A 4 cell Maglight with the beam focus set on narrow sits on my night stand alongside of my revolver. If I am behind the beam and expecting it advantage mine. A quick on off tells me if it is a shoot/no shoot situation and they are seeing a yellow spot in front of their eyes, night sight done gone kaput. Don't mess with old people, some of us have been to a party and got old anyway. I'm protecting family and that makes me kind of touchy about who I find sneaking around my house.

Seriously it isn't about what gun or what load you have in your hands but the willingness and the ability to deploy it in workman like fashion. I'm not the guy to worry about but the little 5'2" 180 pound middle aged grandma who has been mugged and got her first gun. You don't know what or when or where she is going to shoot so be very very careful about breaking her door down. She might not stop till her Glock 17 is empty. At least with me you have a chance to surrender or run and I won't shoot anymore than necessary.

lizziedog1
April 16, 2011, 07:16 AM
Those of you worried about reliability, whether pump or self-loader, would you not be better off with a double barrel shotgun. Granted, you will give up the number of shots available, but for utter reliability, can't beat it. And you can't beat a doubles speed either, at least for two rounds.

My point is that no gun is one hundred percent reliable one hundred percent of the time. Close, but no cigar.

hogdogs
April 16, 2011, 09:48 AM
would you not be better off with a double barrel shotgun
Only if it were an American made unit with exposed hammers... Internal operation is not reliable enuff for me.

Brent

MrWesson
April 16, 2011, 10:13 AM
price/reliability

A autoloader that I can afford would have questionable reliability.

The burgalar hears you rack the shotgun, knows where you are now and you hear a rack too..

Or you get shot because of lost time racking the shotgun.

mnero
April 16, 2011, 11:36 AM
Hot dog is right. I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire. My stoeger 20 gauge has never misfired, but my stoeger 12 does so 20% of the time(I have tried to fix it and so has stoeger) I keep a S&W .38 revolver next to the bed. It has never misfired; missed a few times LOL but it wasn't the guns fault:D

A guard dog is good(if you don't get so attached to it that you feel you have to defend it like you would a child; that is why it won't work for me:o) Guard dogs can fail, but they usually deter or at least provide an early warning.

dgludwig
April 16, 2011, 12:52 PM
I have several double barrels all without external hammers and they can fail to fire.

Doubtless that external hammers are the least likely to fail, but double triggered shotguns have separate firing mechanisms and are less likely to fail than shotguns equipped with single selective triggers.

hogdogs
April 16, 2011, 01:12 PM
I think it boils down to what a man is comfortable with and feels most secure with.

My father has never owned a pump gun or SS or OU EVER! He has had ONE bolt action .410 mossberg that was his first "real gun" as a child. But EVERY other shotgun was a simple single shot.

If my M-500 20ga. ever fails to perform, I would rethink my strategy. This thing is old enuff to drink and has never given me a reason to fear a failure.

Big Jim will cringe again... But a while back I posted about boiling my trigger group since trigger pull went from a bit too stiff to "DANG!!! Is the safety on" due to grunge but it still cycled and fired as it should.

Brent

lizziedog1
April 18, 2011, 06:13 AM
Have you ever noticed that many professional guide in Africa use double rifles as back-ups? Why? Utter reliability is one reason. You might only get two rounds, but they are pretty close to sure.

Also, in the unlikely one firing pin fails, you have a seperate and independent barrel with its own firing mechanism. If that also fails, it just wasn't your day.

hornetguy
April 18, 2011, 07:09 AM
I fall into the camp of, if you have it, and have shot it on several occasions, and it hasn't failed, then USE the dang thing. If it's a pump, great. If it's an autoloader, great. A double? Fine, if that's what you are comfortable with.
I don't overthink these things... you can die of ulcers worrying about "what if it decides to fail just when I NEED it" If it is not a chronic "failer", then why would it be more likely to fail at 2:00 am in your living room than at 2:00 pm in the pasture?
ANY machine can fail. Period. Murphy's Law is funny to talk about, but probably has no real bearing on actual reliability. Keep it clean, use it regularly, and it more than likely will work when needed... whether it's a quail or a bad guy.

Bubba in c.a.
April 19, 2011, 09:32 PM
1) cost. It`s the winner hands down
2) Experience--there are over 20 million pumps out there being used for hunting mostly.
3) Mythology about bad ammo and semi autos being unreliable.
4) Military and police use image. TV.
5) Buyers preference to not learn how to properly clean and lube his weapon.

Is the pump a great HD weapon? You betcha. Almost as good as a semi auto which will cost twice as much, plus the cost of testing ammo to set what your gun likes and a little thinking and elbow grease to maintain it properly.

Sport45
April 19, 2011, 09:51 PM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

Said intended felon shouldn't be hearing you rack the shotgun unless you missed with the first shot.

Why would you keep your HD shotgun empty? If you choose a 1911 for HD does the intended felon get to hear you drop the slide?

dgludwig
April 20, 2011, 01:29 PM
Racking that slide before shooting says one thing loud and clear: "Hey, bad guy-I'm over here, right over here. You might not be able to see me but you can darn well hear me. So now that you know where I'm at, hiding here in the dark, what are you going to do about it?" That's a question that never should have to be asked and one that might have an answer you may not want to hear.
The idea that the sound of a pump shotgun will scare off a committed assailant is not a wise notion to entertain and probably means that some people should watch tv a little less and train a little more.

Technosavant
April 20, 2011, 02:01 PM
Racking that slide before shooting says one thing loud and clear: "Hey, bad guy-I'm over here, right over here. You might not be able to see me but you can darn well hear me. So now that you know where I'm at, hiding here in the dark, what are you going to do about it?" That's a question that never should have to be asked and one that might have an answer you may not want to hear.

You people arguing this have yet to answer my point.

If somebody hears you rack a shotgun, they know a couple things: 1) You know they are there, 2) You are armed and ready. As you point out, they know your GENERAL direction, but humans can only tell general direction by hearing. We can't turn and fire accurately based on a single sound. Furthermore, who said you needed to be in the same room? The sound is plenty being right around the corner, out of direct line of fire.

If we're assuming a night burglary, then we know the intruder is in the dark and in an unfamiliar place. Unless you expect to be burglarized by Daredevil, at this point the vast majority of them will be beating feet- all the advantages belong to the homeowner. Any burglars of the murderous stripe would have already killed you in your bed before going for the TV anyway.

I'm not saying the sound by itself is the end all be all, but thinking that racking a shotgun will result in your immediate demise is just as foolish.

Said intended felon shouldn't be hearing you rack the shotgun unless you missed with the first shot.

There's very few shotguns with a firing pin safety; most safeties just block the trigger. Leaving the chamber empty and hammer down has the shotgun ready for immediate use without the possibility of the thing falling over and discharging.

hogdogs
April 20, 2011, 02:36 PM
Everything about my home defense strategy revolves around stealth. It isn't so much about the sound giving away my position or scaring the semi solid excrement out of the bad guy.

I just choose to keep the ball securely in my court. I want the upper hand. And the only bad guy who will hear my voice or gun cycling the action will be Bad-Guy #2!

I think the scariest sound to Bad-Guy #2 will be the sounds made by Bad-Guy #1's lifeless carcass collapsing on my floor!

Brent

stonewall50
April 20, 2011, 03:41 PM
Have you ever noticed that many professional guide in Africa use double rifles as back-ups? Why? Utter reliability is one reason. You might only get two rounds, but they are pretty close to sure.

Also, in the unlikely one firing pin fails, you have a seperate and independent barrel with its own firing mechanism. If that also fails, it just wasn't your day.
Don't forget the speed of a follow up is much quicker than any other gun.

Oh and guys I store my "HD" shotgun unloaded. My handgun IS loaded, but if I have time to get to a shotgun then I have time to load it. I trust my handgun and I trust the shotgun, but if I hear someone breaking IN that 9mm is alot easier to get at than the shotgun. The shotgun has the ammo right there in the lockbox with it, but the handgun is easier to get ready to go.

TheKlawMan
April 20, 2011, 06:56 PM
If anyone is worried about giving their position away by racking a round, what happens when you hit the possible BG with the beam of your weapon's light?

For that matter, any comment on the better procedure for using a light? For instance, make sure the safety if off, aim towards the threat, activate the light followed by instantly racking a round. Finger is out of the trigger guard unless actually firing.

BigJimP
April 20, 2011, 07:13 PM
HogDog is boiling his triggers .....:eek: ....:barf: ....:barf:...:barf: ...( I've failed you Brent ...) ....you're just wasting that fancy Ivy League education ...I've tried to extend to you ?? :(

Come on guys ...quit worrying about giving your position away by racking a gun / or with lights ... /....get out to some "defensive shooting classes" ...and get some time behind those guns ..../ you can train - but you can't tell what's going to happen - until it does. It isn't like they follow a script ...

In the one in a gazillion chance you ever find yourself in this position / with someone breaking into your home --- the meth-head / or whatever is wrong with him or her - has already committed himself ...and if he's as dense as they seem to be on "cops" etc ...racking a gun isn't going to make a difference ! It ins't a sniper exercize ... its a "get out of my house" " I called the police" and if he doesn't run ...and advances on you or your family ....then "bang"...and rack a 2nd round ....and maybe a "double tap" or a "triple tap" just in case....because you were afraid for your life ...and he had a weapon...

I'm not a big fan of lights on a gun / although they have their place - maybe ...but I think most instructors would tell you they have pros and cons.

The single biggest thing you can do to be prepared ...is train ...and be very familiar with your defensive weapon of choice ...so you can manipulate it in pitch darkness ..and load and reload it in a hurry ...and put "tactical accuracy" fire on a target at the ranges that you expect / if you find someone in your home (most experts say its going to be a close confrontation / maybe 6 - 15 feet probably in most homes... ).

To answer your question about me making noise ...no, I'm making noise ...and I'm hollering " get out or I will shoot ..../ and I've called the police " ...and the best thing that can happen is they leave ...and my insurance company cleans up the mess of broken glass or whatever got beat up ....and no shots get fired ...at me / or at them. And I put the 1911 away ...and maybe the cavalry gets there and catches him or them.

Practice, practice, practice - with the defensive gun of your choice ...equipped anyway you want it - with or without lights / and hope you never need it ! I do keep a small flashlight in my sock drawer - next to my "night gun" ...and it would be in my pocket if I needed it when something goes bump in the night. But 99.9% of the time /when something wakes me up ....its a limb hitting the house / the alarm is on ...its just a get up / grab the portable phone - see what's going on. If there is someone outside / call 911...in my community they'll be there in 3 or 4 minutes ...tops .../ and I retreat to my bedroom / close the doors - stay on the phone with the 911 operator - and have my gun in my hand / and put it away when the cavalry shows up!

C0untZer0
April 21, 2011, 11:28 PM
I've seen videos of Kel-Tec reps firing the KSG. It does seem like a well trained person can send a lotta lead pretty quickly. But I've seen people fire a Benelli M4 more quickly.

On the one hand I tell myself "could a weapon that passed rigorous tests and was adopted by the U.S. Marines not be reliable enough to use as a home defense shotgun?" On the other hand I had personal experience with the M16 and that was adopted by the U.S. Military and I thought M16s were crap - OMG the "Forward Assist" button should be labeled "Our design sucked and the bolt doesn't close so we added this little gem on the side - HAVE FUN!"

I just tend to think now though that modern high-quality auto shotguns are more than reliable enough for home defense.

And just an aside - I think a flash light is a tactical disadvantage for a defender. When law enforcement officers are storming a building in low light conditions they need to command illumination and it is a totally different dynamic. There are so many different factors - they usually are wearing flak jackets, they are (usually) bring numerical advantage to the situation, if they have to return fire - the amount of firepower that they bring to bear is usually overwhelming.

For me I'd probably be in my underwear, hoping to QUITELY arm myself. And personally I'd rather be hunkered in the dark with the intruder backlit - than be using a flashlight. I don't feel safe trying to move with a flashlight - anyone in my house obviuously sees me coming a long time before I see them. They become the defender and I become the target.

Just my opinion.

chadstrickland
April 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
I have a question..why do y'all keep saying the sound of racking a round will scare them away...what's wrong with already having a shell in the chamber?

C0untZer0
April 21, 2011, 11:47 PM
What shooter1911 said about picking up an 18.5" barrel for an 1100 caused me to think of one reason a lot of us get a pump for home defense. Besides the reputation a pump has for reliability, how prevalent are short barrel semis?
To me an HD length is no more than 21" and the shorter the better.

You can't get any more compact than the KSG which is coming out, - AO length 26.1", and conversly, the capabilty to shorten up a Benelli M4 is limited and expensive from what I've seen.

Not sure about other pumps, and brings up the issue of shortening semi autos in a way that they are no longer shoulder fired.

It does seem that pumps have the advantage in being shorter.

Cheapshooter
April 22, 2011, 12:25 AM
And there's nothing more frightening to an intended felon as the sound of a pump action chambering a round.

Way too much Hollywood!!!
The frightening sound an intended felon in my house would hear is a very loud boom!!!
Slide racking looks, and sounds good in movies and TV. Being ready saves your life in a home invasion.

To the OP, I think the reason for the pump over the auto is as mentioned, mostly economic.

10 Beers
April 23, 2011, 03:02 PM
The 12ga pump is 100% American, that should be enough. I have six and still want more.:)

Stevie-Ray
April 23, 2011, 04:22 PM
Not all of us feel that way. I have only one HD shotgun and it's an auto.

MLeake
April 23, 2011, 04:35 PM
I wouldn't count on the sound saving the day by any means.

But I did meet a guy who scared off a would-be robber during his days as a convenience store clerk, by cycling an old credit-card impression machine under his counter. (BG had a tire iron, not a gun.)

Those things sound a lot like a shotgun.

As far as losing time due to racking the shotgun, I figure if small motor control functions are more impaired by stress than are large motor control functions, I'll probably be faster to rack a slide than I would to find and flick off the cross-bar safety. So, I keep my HD 870 with an empty chamber, safety on "Fire."

It's very easy to rack while bringing the gun to bear.

So, what time is lost? (And if I can't handle the problem with 4x 00 12ga, the missing 5th shell probably won't be a factor.)

TheKlawMan
April 23, 2011, 07:38 PM
I have a pump, an 870, and frist shot it in rapid fire with buck shot and slugs just yesterday. I didn't notice that it took more time to pump than it did to recover from recoil. If it was longer it was a split second and that was with only a few rounds of rapid fire practice

Sport45
April 24, 2011, 01:23 AM
For those that wait for the threat to materialize before racking keep in mind that in doing so you just reduced your shell count in the mag by one.

Also, I hope you are familiar with how a pump action shotgun works. If there's one in the chamber you'll get a satisfying bang when you release the safety and pull the trigger. On an 870 if the receiver is canted with the ejection port down when you pull the slide back the shell may wind up on the floor. I'm not familiar with the action of other pump guns.

As an alternative, you may be able to keep a full mag with the action open. (I've never tried, so I don't know if you can even load the mag with the bolt back.) Then, to put the gun into action all you have to do is toss a shell in front of the bolt and rack it closed. (Be sure to toss the shell in with the base to the rear. When you're excited. And in the dark...)

TheKlawMan
April 24, 2011, 02:25 AM
Sport45, I am pretty new to shotguns, to guns, and to the 870. but I believe there are at least two ways to load a full tube and leave one securely seated on the elevator.

If you have the short Law Enforcement forend (the corn cob) it is easy since the forend doesn't block the loading port when it is slid to the rear.

If you have the long stock, it still isn't that tricky. Load the tube until full, slide the forend back until the elevater picks up a round from the magazine tube and lifts it up to the level of the chamber. You m ay have to slide the forend forward about half an inch but should be able to load another round into the magazine. You now have a full magazine with another round ready to be chambered by merely sliding the forend to the front.

As for your concern that the round laying on the elevator can fall out of the ejection port if the 870 is canted on its left side, it really isn't a problem if you leave the forend slid forward just so it clears the loading port. Then the front so the shell is held in place by the extractor and the curved side of the elevator. Play with it, using snap caps for safety and you will see what I mean.

Here are a couple of pictures of what I mean. Both were taken with the action slide in the same place. If you don't recognize something to the rear of the loading portit is the factory trigger lock.

zippy13
April 24, 2011, 02:33 AM
K-Law, my friend, what's that on your R-870, a trigger lock, or what?

Edit
Never mind, I didn't read you last line, and went directly to the pics. I shouldn't be allowed to post after midnight. :rolleyes:

TheKlawMan
April 24, 2011, 03:27 AM
Hi Zippy! I am just turning in myself and am half dingy.

I would add to what I posted about loading the 870 with a full magazine plus one on the elevator, what I described may not be the safest thing since the firing pin may be alilghed with the primer and the safety of the 870 doesn't block the pin from striking the primer if, for instance, the gun was dropped. Similar to the same risk of keeping a round chambered. If that is a concern, after topping off the magazine, slide the forearm back all the way to the rear and remove the round from the receiver.

If bad stuff comes down, drop that shell into the receiver, slide the forend to the front and you have a full mag with one in the chamber.

Got to turn in and get ready for the Easter Bunny. Happy Easter!

Sport45
April 24, 2011, 08:34 AM
As for your concern that the round laying on the elevator can fall out of the ejection port if the 870 is canted on its left side, it really isn't a problem if you leave the forend slid forward just so it clears the loading port. Then the front so the shell is held in place by the extractor and the curved side of the elevator. Play with it, using snap caps for safety and you will see what I mean.

I like leaving the thing closed on a live shell with the magazine tube full. If the action isn't closed it's not locked. If you leave it in the condition you describe and grab it up by the barrel the action slides open ejecting the live shell.

Bucks Gun Shop
April 24, 2011, 12:04 PM
Gang:

For all of you with tricks on how you leave your shotgun in a "ready" state, you might look into the Shot Lock (www.shotlock.com). I don't sell them, but have purchased one for my own home. From my perspective, they allow me to have my shotgun loaded, but not have to worry about an "accident". They also are easy to operate. I can go from fully a sleep to armed and ready in 5 seconds.

Just something to think about.

Webleymkv
April 24, 2011, 12:24 PM
There are really just a couple of reasons that I can think of. A pump shotgun allows you to more quickly cycle the action manually if you have a misfire or prefer to keep your gun "cruiser ready" (full mag, empty chamber). A pump also allows you to shoot a wider variety of ammunition reliably without having to worry about adjusting anything. The biggest reason, however, is price. I paid a whopping $150 for my HD shotgun (a very lightly used Remington 870 Express Magnum) and I would be hard-pressed to find any halfway decent semi-auto for that even on the used market.

Honestly, it's really not something I'm all that worried about. I can shoot my pump pretty darn quick and it is not my only HD gun (I also keep a semi-auto rifle and at least one handgun loaded and ready for goblins in the wee hours of the morning). Truth be told, if the only shotgun I had for HD was my NEF single-shot 10ga, I wouldn't be all that worried.

mavracer
April 24, 2011, 12:45 PM
I haven't read all posts, but the big reason I use a pump as my HD shotgun is I shoot cowboy action and I shoot my 1897 more than any oother shotgun. I feel very confident with it. I am looking for a Rem modell 11 or Auto 5 to make a trench replica out of. Then I may switch them out.

TheKlawMan
April 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
Sport 45. I am not exactly sure what you mean, but I just check my 870, which spent the night just as depicted in those photographs. After taking the trigger lock off and checking that the safety was set, I picked it up by the barrel and even shook the 870. The action slide, the elevator, the shell, nothing budged. Lift it muzzle up by the forend and the gun is cocked with a round chambered.

publius
April 24, 2011, 05:41 PM
I am going to stick with my 870 that is fully loaded with a properly chambered #1 buck. As far as the pump being the best for HD? I have always thought so due to reliability and mag. capacity. I still think this is a very good choice for those who are very familiar with a pump. I have lately come to believe that an autoloader is a better choice for those who don't have thousands of rounds through a pump under their belts. today's auto's are very reliable and you only have to think about the safety and aiming. I have also that a handgun like a 1911 with a manual safety is not great for someone who is not completely comfortable with the design. DA revolver is much simpler. Botton line is that, under pressure, you don't want to have to conciously think about how to operate your weapon. I can sit here behind my keyboard and tell you honestly how fast I can clean a jam, load a mag, etc., but I cannot tell you for sure that I will remember to push the safety off on my 870 (or whatever) if I wake up in the middle of the night with some bad guys going through my closet b/c I've never been under that kind of pressure. Sorry if I turned this into Tactics&Training but that's what the pump vs. auto boils down to.

Stevie-Ray
April 24, 2011, 07:39 PM
I am going to stick with my 870 that is fully loaded with a properly chambered #1 buck. That's great, but where do you get #1 buck? Man, that stuff is hard to come by, here.:(

00 is my stand by, since #1 is unavailable.

Hawg Haggen
April 24, 2011, 08:33 PM
Short barreled Win. 97 pump. Fully loaded with 00 buck with one chambered and hammer on half cock. No light, no pistol grip, no fancy shmancy bells and tacticool bullcrap. All they hear is a soft click as the hammer goes to full cock and then a boom. No slide racking, no warning. If they're in the house they don't belong there.

10 Beers
April 26, 2011, 07:35 PM
What, like this?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x122/HoldinMcGroin/97.jpg

C0untZer0
April 27, 2011, 01:28 PM
Just Google:

Remington Express Buckshot 12B1 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).
Winchester Super-X XB121 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).


Also a decent HD load:

Remington Express Buckshot 12B0 (1275 fps, 12 pellets #0 Buck).

TheKlawMan
April 27, 2011, 05:52 PM
Wakeman says #0 0r #1 Buck: http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

publius
April 30, 2011, 11:34 PM
I've had a bunch of #1 for years now so I haven't checked current availability. It's the best balance between pellet size and number of pellets in my opinion. 0 is my second choice. Again, I think a modern design auto is probably a better HD weapon for most. I also think a handgun w/o a safety is better. Keep it simple.