View Full Version : Trained dogs -- can you defend yourself?
December 23, 1998, 12:04 AM
On another board, there has been a discussion about dogs, some trained in family protection, some attack trained, and just plain junk yard strays.
What is the best way to defend yourself?
Can you defend yourself from a trained attack dog? Stray dog packs?
December 23, 1998, 05:38 AM
The general concensus based on different threads I have gleamed suggests the following:
Against untrained/feral dogs:
1. Run away if possible.
2. If not, stand your ground.
3. Place your back against a wall or a tree if possible.
4. Wrap your offhand with your shirt/jacket/coat if time permits.
5. Be sure to have your defensive tools ready.
6. Pray that they back off.
Defense against a trained dog is essentially the same except that rather than praying, you scream for the owner, who is hopefully nearby, to command the dog to stop. Otherwise, don't bother waiting for the dog to get too close. Just attack at the first opportunity.
December 23, 1998, 10:08 AM
First of all I believe that you must attempt to determine whether the dog(s) in question are feral or trained. Feral dogs tend to run in packs. Many, but not all, trained dogs are recognized species quite often associated with these type duties. Most trained dogs will go for the arm. Training a dog to go for the jugular could carry severe legal liabilities, I would imagine. As posted above move to a backstop, wrap your leading arm (hopefully off or weak hand) then go for the throat when they latch on. If you can access your weapon use it. Feral dogs would be very different as many are rabid. If in doubt, beat feet. Most rural people I know shoot unknown dogs (and cats) on sight b/c city folk don't want that cute little puppy they got for Christmas that grew into a big dog. They think they are doing it a favor by putting it back in it's "natural" environment; the wild.
December 23, 1998, 12:45 PM
Grab the dog preferably from behind with both hands along the meaty skin on both sides of the neck. Grab alot and hard and be prepared for the dog to swing to one side, then wedge the body between your legs and push down to the ground and hold. You can maybe even guide the dog to a gate or something or to an avenue of escape.
This works for one dog only, obviously, and you still have to get away but this will buy you some time.
December 23, 1998, 02:33 PM
Dogs are bad little beasties. I would avoid HTH with any P.O.'d dog before just about any human. I seen what trained and wild dogs can do to humans when they decide they want to.
Azone gave good advice, if you have to mess with a dog... tie it up and pin it down. Use your advantage in wieght to pin it to the ground and stay away from the chompers.
btw- I have a Shepard that has had some Shutzhund training, she is my burglar alarm and home defense weapon all at once.
December 23, 1998, 08:21 PM
Fluency in German helps. Quite often a trained dog will not attack if you stand still.Do not turn and run.
A pack of dogs will kill you.
I know two people who have punched out attacking dogs with head shots.
I kicked one once with good results.
I dont like dogs.
Better days to be,
December 23, 1998, 11:46 PM
Some good replies and advice, what about using a knife or gun against an attack trained dog? We know that some dogs are in our society that have supposedly been deprogramed. How do we know one of the former attack dogs is not living next door?
There is an excellent article on the subject of dogs in Gung Ho, June 1982, written by Ayoob.
According to the experts that Ayoob interviewed for this article, an unarmed man has about a 25% chance of prevailing against a trained attack dog. George
December 23, 1998, 11:53 PM
I sorta took it for granted that it was an unarmed guy. If I have a gun, I would try to shoot the dog, yes.
I would only try to use a knife after having pinned the dog. Rather like wild hog hunting, but the animal has, IMHO, a much better thought process for killing and definitely is more dangerous.
December 24, 1998, 12:20 AM
Actually, I've always loved dogs. Of course, mine don't go for my jugular, unless I miss their feeding! ;)
Seriously, I always carry pepper spray now, so I have it out if I pass a suspicious dog. We also have packs (yes, they sometimes do run in packs) of coyotes around here from time to time. However, they generally seem smart enough to avoid us humans - they're out for cat and doggy hors d'oeuvres.
I also look for something I can climb up on if need be. At least with dogs, they don't climb worth a darn. It's mountain lions and bears that have always made me wonder what the heck I would do!
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited 12-24-98).]
December 24, 1998, 11:57 AM
I did two things to overcome a dog that the owner swears wouldn't bite.
He kept jumping up (the dog, not the owner)
like he was trying to grab my forearms or wrists. Everytime he jumped, I kneed him in the chest. This would flip him over and slow him down. I didn't try to run. I haven't seen too many people that can flat-out outrun a dog, especially if they're over 30 years old. If they can, they should be in the Olympics!
He finally did get my right hand, and, for whatever reason, I didn't try to pull away, I jammed my hand down his throat as hard as I could, and he started gagging and choking immediately. I guess I figured that if he wanted some of me, he was going to have to eat all of me at once. I got him in a sort of headlock and continued to "feed" him my hand and forearm until his life mission was to get away from me. I got two scars on my hand and a tetanus shot out of the deal, but the ole' hand down the throat trick changed his mind quickly.
Not pretty or graceful, but effective in that particular scenario. Oh, the dog was a 6 year old Doberman.
As far as packs of dogs, I can only recklessly speculate on that. The problem is maintaining any kind of offensive mindset while several dogs are chewing on you. The few times I have seen any kind of pack attack, it appeared there was a "lead" dog that was most agressive, with the other dogs being somewhat less agressive. Maybe if you could eye gouge the most agressive one, and work your way down the line??? I don't know. That's a tough one.
[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 12-24-98).]
December 24, 1998, 10:30 PM
If attacked by a single dog, let him go for your arm, then go for his throat. You can take him, but you WILL be bitten. A pack? As Jeff Thomas said, climb a tree, a fence, or shoot!
December 24, 1998, 11:07 PM
I would not wish to come across as bragadocious, but I believe I am meaner (and, thank god, smarter) than any dog I'll meet. I believe some of the better advice I've seen advocated shoving the "reaction" side forearm deeply into the dog's jaws when it attacks, placing the other arm behind the dog's head, and "rolling" the arms to break the neck. Of course, one gets fewer punctures if one has had time to wrap the forearm!
If I have a knife (and, I always do), I might feed the dog my left, and gut him w/ my right hand. If an option, I would prefer to keep dogs at distance, but I feel that I could take any single dog-or two, on a good day- regardless of weaponry.
In the martial art I train in, we often do shinai drills, where the student must face an instructor, who cuts at him with a bamboo training sword. The key to doing this well is waiting until just the right moment. I would tend to believe that most dogs will spring, unless they are ankle biters (which would place them in the "annoying but not really dangerous except for potential diseases" category). If one has an impact weapon, or even just knows how to deliver a good blow, I cannot see having trouble defeating a dog my weight (140 lbs) or less.
December 25, 1998, 10:11 PM
Spectre, I have the greatest respect for your training. Jim Arvanitis, world recoginized martial artist, was raising attack Dobes in the early eighties. He states that he would give the average black belt a 30% chance of defeating one of his Dobes, and even with his special knowledge, only would give himself a max of 70% of not being killed. Yes, weapons will make a difference. A side step with a strong kick to the ribs might work -- but Dobes can almost change direction in the air. Timing is everything. A kick in the genitals may work, but won't stop a trained attack dog. Another poster mentioned grabing by hide along side and under the ears, and lifting the dog off of the ground and throwing the dog. May work on untrained dogs. George
December 25, 1998, 10:50 PM
Spectre, my friend, you have all my confidence and support. But, for now, my money is on the attack dog. ;)
(I can't wait 'til we get together in February... Don't scare my friends ;))
December 25, 1998, 11:50 PM
You are the MAN! I think it possible to defeat a dog bare handed, but it is not something that I wish to do.
There are some good points made here!
In the series of books by John Ambrose Hunter there is a reference to a letter from his contemporary, the tiger shooter from India, Jim Corbett. Corbett writes that it has been sometime since he last wrote, and that he is sorry but that he has been recovering from a run in with a tiger.
A man eater was preying on a village, so he went up there and baited the tiger with a goat. Shooting from a machan in a tree he somehow wound up on the ground, with a wounded tiger who bounded in an acacia thicket. His gun bearer ran off, so he fired up a lantern and entered the thicket with a 12 gauge shotgun in search of the tiger.
He just realized that the tiger had doubled back on him and turned to be struck by the tiger as it leaped upon him. He was upon his back and the tiger was attempting to disembowel him while seeking the base of neck bite that that species kills with. Drawing his knees up, Corbett thrust his left arm into the tiger's mouth and every time the tiger released it to spit it out in order to get the killing bite he wanted Corbett thrust his arm in deeper.
Finally the tiger gagged and stepped back freeing Corbett's right arm and the Greener shotgun. Thrusting the barrels up under the tiger's chin he fired both barrels killing the tiger instantly. The shot also amputated his left hand above the wrist! The delay in writing was due to the fever and infection that he had as he recovered from this experience.
When I was a child, I watched the neighbor man deal with a dog that growled at him as he shagged it out of his garbage can. When the dog showed his teeth he reached towards the dog, and as the dog went to bite him he grabbed the dogs lower jaw and twisted it turning the animal over onto its back in one quick motion. This was a shepard of about 70-80 pounds. When the dog landed on his back the neighbor kicked him solidly in the ribs with a vicious kick. That dog left for parts unknown in one hell of a hurry.
Couple years later my brother was bitten by a large Irish Setter on his paper route. John quit delivering the lady's paper as she refused to pay his forty dollar doctor bill.
She then would call the newspaper up and complain that her paper was missing and they would deliver one and charge John about 2.50 for it. (In those days one deliveres 100 dailies for about 14.00 every two weeks).
My father spoke to the woman and she was adamant, her dog NEVER bit anyone, and she wanted her paper! On sunday Dad delivered her paper with a mattock handle under his arm. When the paper hit the screen door the dog attacked jumping from the porch to my dad's position on the steps. He had the mattock handle in the middle with his hands about 14 inches apart. He offered the dog the small end and as the dog lunged for it he smacked the cur with the big end, and then he lit into that dog with both ends of the handle alternately. He knocked out at least two teeth and the dog had had more than enough inside of 5 or 6 seconds.
Never had any problem with the dog again.
A brick in your paper sack makes on hell of a dog whacker. You hold the sack out in front of you fairly high, and as the animal goes to grab it you swing it violently in a loop back towards you, he moves in to discover the brick descending sqaurely on his head.
I like dogs, if yours bites me, or looks like he is going to bite me, he is going to be toast.
When I was wrenching for the City of Minneapolis, a burglar was holed up in a warehouse and the cops ordered him out. He did not respond, so they loudly announced that they were sending in the dog.
He responded that he was not coming out if there dog was present, and if they sent it in he would kill it as he was deathly afraid of dogs. They sent the dog in, the burglar was bitten terribly, the dog was stabbed, slashed and disemboweled. The burglar survived. The dog did not.
One dog, Spectre, like taking a knife from someone, you can figure on being injured. Two or more dogs, better have a good shotgun.
just my .02
Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!
Yours In Marksmanship
[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited 12-26-98).]
December 26, 1998, 12:05 AM
For every "I survived a vicous dog attack" story there has got to be 10 people who have visited the hospital, probably more.
Your last point is probably right on. A capable fighter can probably survive an encounter with any dog... but at what cost?
The only way I am tangling with a dog is if I absolutley have to, or if someone else is in danger of being lunch, should I scoot.
December 26, 1998, 03:06 AM
I`ve had a few bad experiences with dogs,in one a friends dobbie (who`d never met me at the time) attacked me. It ran at me and leaped off the ground aimed at my throat mouth agape. I reacted without really thinking,when it`s feet left the ground I nailed it in the chops with a hard right. It landed on the ground with a thud and went and hid in the corner,which is a good thing cuz I don`t have the foggiest what I would have done next if it hadn`t. In another notable encounter 4 mangy strays surrounded me on a suburban street one night. I backed up to a chainlink fence so they couldn`t get me from behind and pulled out my Sm.Kershaw DWO (although they weren`t called that then)and faced them,determined not to show them how scared I was. The biggest,a black lab,started to close in,snarling and such. I crouched down a little and faced him,staring right into his eyes while minding my peripheral vision for movement. He closed to just out of my range and stopped,I took half a step toward him and he stepped back. I did the same to the dog to my right,the smallest ,and it moved back too. I used this to give myself and opening and worked my way down the street away from them,never turning my back. In that case all the old standbys seemed to work. Boy am I glad I didn`t have to face 4 dogs with a 2.5" folder!!! Marcus
December 26, 1998, 02:00 PM
I hope I have not come across as swaggering and foolhardy. I don't want to fight anything. I do feel that everyone who has a chance should read Capstick's books. He has stories of hunters who used holding onto a lion's tongue to save them, another of someone who used kicks in the crotch to discourage a leopard who had him pinned down, among others. The idea I took from this is that the WILL to survive is by far the most important attribute. Also, as Eastwood said, "Every man's gotta know his limits." Anyone (presumbably) can be ambushed, but I feel that I can hit anything my weight or less hard enough to stop it. I would prefer to hit it with 00 buck.
December 26, 1998, 03:22 PM
Spectre, again, I have no doubt about your ability or resolve. I think we tend to look at dogs, junkyard dogs, even trained family defense dogs, not at the hard trained attack dogs. Hopefully none of us will ever run into one of these attack dogs, when master/owner is not there to call off the dog.
Ayoob says the best medicine is a .357 Mag with nuclear ammo.
If a handgun is used, try to shoot into the mouth and up into the brain pan. Shots to the sloping skull may deflect.
The hard trained attack dog will quit only when dead, and can do a lot of damage after taking a fatal shot. George
December 26, 1998, 09:44 PM
I had the chance to talk to a neighbor of Spartacus a few weeks ago. Years ago, this man had a "disagreement" with one of S's Dobermans. The neighbor shot the dog 5 times with #4 Buck...
December 27, 1998, 11:08 PM
I'll just throw out some knowledge and idea's n stuff.
Where I came from, if ever attacked by a dog, you treated it almost as you would a person. Punch it right in the face, if it bites your hand...ram it down the dog's throut, try to get the dog down with you in the power position, and if you must...try to break its neck.
Now I just wish to tell you that twice this year, Rotwielers went nuts in Atlanta, and went after children. Both had to be killed to make them stop. One of them took 4 bullets from a .44 mag to stop it. I do not recall what they did to stop the other one.
The type of dog would make a big diference in how I aproched the situation.
Mouse Assassins inc.
December 28, 1998, 09:36 AM
Good point, SD. A Rotty might have the weight advantage on me! I would prefer to use some tool that could keep the beast at distance, if possible. A cane might be a good choice. A good stroke from an ASP to the brow might be effective, as well. (followed by strangulation from behind while the dog is stunned?)
December 29, 1998, 03:16 PM
Let us not forget that a large dog's throat/neck area is massively surrounded by muscles. I wouldn't be so sure that strangulation is feasible.
However, dogs are usually pretty self-conscious in regard to their balance. My own Fila Brasileiro bitch gets quite frantic whenever she finds herself on unsure ground such as the kitchen tiles and I've seen other dogs do as much.
FWIW, she weights 175 lb and on her hind legs she's a bit taller than me, at 5'9"...
December 29, 1998, 06:14 PM
I see one flaw in all the comments up to now. Although it IS in line with the original post's question, what would we do if there were more than one dog attacking us?
If that were the case, I think the best solution would be shoot and keep shooting until all within range are incapacitated, or get inside a vehicle, phone booth, (anyone seen a phone booth lately?) or other enclosure.
If the above fails, I'd say the best option (only option?) would be put on your best war face, do your best war howl, attack and keep attacking in the best berserker tradition with whatever's at hand until one side wins, keeping in mind if/when one dog latches on, your mobility will suffer and the rest will probably pile on.
...ya suppose the sight of an overgrown Korean ("dog-eater!!!") charging while howling all out would make some dogs flee?
I wouldn't count on it, but might as well go down fighting.
December 29, 1998, 06:26 PM
I agree with Edmund - shoot the son of a bitch. I can't run faster than an attack dog, neither can my kids. I'd retreat if possible but treat it, or them, just like any other potentially lethal threat.
December 30, 1998, 04:15 PM
Very interesting thread. This is something I've thought about often. I'm a "dog person." I've been around dogs all my life. My first advice is *don't run*. Unless the dog/s are far away and you have a safe place close at hand you will be caught. I've ran with dogs alot and except for very small dogs they can out run me easily and I'm not slow. Also, running triggers thier chase instinct. They become more determined to hunt you down. Instead of running use whatever time you have to draw or look for a weapon and get your back up against something. Make yourself as big and threatening as possible. If there's more than one there'll be a lead dog who'll be the one likely to attack first. Yell and threaten him with whatever you have in your hands even if its just waving your shirt. Against untrained/feral dogs this *may* work to put them to flight. If not the previously mentioned technique of grabbing them with both hands by the loose flesh around the neck can work. Grabbing thusly and swinging them around into whatever backstop you've (hopefully) found could work. IMO, the technique of giving the dog your forearm and putting your other arm on his neck and rolling to snap his neck has very little chance of working. Dog's necks are strong and thier spines are too flexable. They'll just twist around while holding onto your arm doing tons of dammage. Better off going for an eye gouge/grab and hope it lets go and runs away. Personally, I carry pepper spray and a knife and would employ these in a dog attack.
I ran afoul of a dog pack once in Ensenada, Mexico. It was a pack of about 10 feral dogs. Me and two buddies were drinking on the beach when we saw this dog pack coming. Luckily we were next to a rock jetty. We climbed up and scrambled down to the end. The dogs circled around the beach end but couldn't get up the rocks. They ran around on the beach barking for awhile then left.
I was also attacked by a pack of coyotees while camping in the local mountains. I had my dog with me, a little terrier mutt. He chased all of them off except one that ran to attack me. I grabbed a tree branch that happened to be on the ground and as the coyote approached I raised it over my head and yelled. The coyote thought better of attacking me and turned and ran. Both times I was lucky but hey, I'd rather be lucky than good. ;)
[This message has been edited by MM (edited 12-30-98).]
December 31, 1998, 02:45 PM
MMN, some excellent comnments. Survival is mindset. Knowledge helps, but without the mindset " I will survive " knowledge may not be enough. George
December 31, 1998, 08:49 PM
The comments about yelling and making yourself look as big as possible sound right on - since dogs would seldom hear humans howling and carrying on like that, I imagine it would have significant shock effect.
SPEED is a big factor here as well - not only running, but also fighting. At least from my point of view, I have been absolutely amazed at how quickly dogs can fight / bite. I saw a dog fight once, between one 'bad boy' stray and four others. The 'bad boy' started it, and the four tried to finish it. The 'bad boy' got on his hind legs, put his back against a parked motorcycle, and took care of business - in about 5 - 10 seconds. All I could see was a blur of teeth and blood. The 'bad boy' won.
Unless I'm well armed and ready, I'll still climb the tree or otherwise escape. I'm sure a decent human can take one dog, but up against two attack dogs - that would be a real accomplishment. And, as I think Rob mentioned, perhaps an experience you'd have to relate to the other severely handicapped people in your hospital ward!
Let me ask another question, mentioned above in passing - stare or not stare? I was taught years ago to walk away from the dog, don't show fear, but keep the dog in your peripheral vision until you're out of its territory. I was taught that staring at the dog actually increased the chance of an attack. What do you all think?
December 31, 1998, 09:04 PM
In answer (supposition?) to your question, I believe eye lock with a dog has the same effect as with a human. The alpha will attack immediately, the "puffer" will make a tactical withdrawal.
Surely you've met dogs (especially little ones) who only attacked when you attempted to retreat.
As for me, perhaps I need to work a ribeye steak into my daily carry attire...it would certainly give one the opportunity to effect a leisurely pistol presentation. Heck, if you're quick enough, you might even be able to reuse the steak! ;)
January 2, 1999, 12:24 PM
Staring - I agree completely with Rich. To a canine, whether it is a dog, coyote, or wolf, a hard stare is a form of a challenge. This could be enough to scare your neighbor's wimp dog off but will harden the resolve of the combat vet stray. I've seen dogs be provoked to attack just from being stared at. Just as in any fight, a non-focused watchfulness is, IMO, the way to go.
Also, in addition to my previous comment about not running (unless you have a safe place *very* close) I would suggest not turning your back and keeping your eyes on the alpha dog at all times. Seems obvious but I just want to throw it out there.
As for the steak idea, hey, why not? :) Seriously, though, if your walking home from the store with that grocery bag throwing down some food could get you some extra time to back off to a safe place.
January 5, 1999, 03:54 AM
Spectre, weight classes don't count for much when comparing humans to animals. The structure of the muscle fibers and the connections are different. This makes a VERY LARGE DIFFERENCE!!
I have raised Dobermans and Rottweilers commercially. I have been involved in Schutzund training. I also used to check out the competition's rent a dogs.
I know how Dobermans move. One on one they are not a problem to me. But this is based on intimate knowledge of the breed. The post about the guy who raised them and only gave himself a 70% chance puzzles me. I wonder if he fought with his much?
Rottweilers are another story. Love them. Don't want to mess with even a small female. I once grabbed an eighty pound female in a bear hug and fell on top of her. She got up and walked off with me holding her (I weigh about 260).
Packs? Gimme shelter. Large capacity magazines. If all else fails...smash the alpha quickly with maximum brutality(best of all possible worlds in a very poor situation).
The various breeds have very different reaction patterns, reaction times, grit, and musculature. Studying at first hand helps a lot. A Schutzhund trained dog will release you once you are down and not resisting. However, some people have trained dogs to other standards. I once had a command trained Doberman that would all out attack a pine tree if you pointed and gave the command. (I rescued her from the people who did this to her) Downside of command training is that one of these dogs will often watch its master beat to death while waiting for the command. Schutzhund type situational training is best in my opinion.
Many of these dogs work every day with no reward from their handlers and are dying for human attention. I have taken old tennis balls up to the fearsome attack dogs' domain and in a few minutes have them fetching the ball back to the gate for more fun. Think the place was very secure? If you use a guard dog...play with it regularly and DON'T let it play with anyone else. Train it not to. Also, a word about gender. Males are usually heavier, more muscular, and more aggressive. They can all be neutralized with one little bitch in heat. Females can't and are also more easily trained in my experience.
It is easy to decoy guard dogs in a fenced area. Get the attention of one and the others come. While the bad guys go in the other side. An easy solution for this is to pen a small loud barker where he can't be seen from the fence. Then when all the guard dogs gather at the disturbance...there will be one dog out of sight and raising hell. Make the BG's pause and wonder.
January 6, 1999, 08:06 PM
Has anyone used OC on strays, protection trained dogs, or attack trained dogs? Ed Nowicki did a video in which a protection trained dog was sprayed with OC while dog was being aggravated. Dog put tail between his legs and hid his face.
OC is not anywhere near 100% on people and often does not work on EDPs, or people who are highly motivated and/or people that are very goal oriented. I wonder if the same is true of dogs? GLV
January 6, 1999, 08:38 PM
My insane younger brother (14 at the time) sprayed himself with Bodyguard OC. I no longer put much faith in it...(he began crying 8 minutes later. He was never in a condition to be taken out of a conflict.)
January 9, 1999, 11:44 PM
IMHO, a good stick or bat will be better protection against a dog than a handgun. First of all good luch hitting an attacking dog with a pistol (a shotgun would be another story). Second, the cance of a OSS with a dog is almost nil unless you blow it's head off. Someone already mentioned a dog that took 4 shots with a .44mag to go down. How many humans do you know that could take three shots from a .44mag and still attack you? Also I recall a show on discovery or one of those channels where they were interviewing criminals to find out what they look for in stores to rob after hours. One guy said basically 'If they have a dog, never try to rob the place. A dog will easilly take two bullets from a gun and still attack you and chances are you will only get one shot off before he is on you'. YMMV of course.
January 10, 1999, 12:41 AM
FWIW, I shot a nutso Neighborhood Dog that had been chased from my yard with a paintball gun many times. This time he had a hold of my wife's 3 pound Maltese. It was a Mutt with some Rott in him, probably about 60 lbs. I hit it with a .40 from about 5 feet and it dropped instantly. It was an original Black Talon bullet, they were still fresh enough to have in a carry gun at the time.
(Of course, I waited until any respectable dog would've been able to have shaken the life outta that little rat of dog that my wife had.... ;)) It survived, but sadly (yeah right) it was crushed by a large SUV tire a year later.
January 10, 1999, 12:23 PM
There was a big bulldog that kept wandering around in Spartacus' yard when I was there a little over a month ago. This dog appeared to be somewhat unstable, and inclined to stalk neighbors pulling into nearby yards. He probably was about 80 lbs. In any case, I considered popping him with Spartacus' .22 Browning, but was afraid I might not have the legal basis, since he had not actually attacked anyone yet (and, this was in the city, so it would not have been "discreet")...after having this canine fruitcake prowling the yard for an hour or two, I went out there w/ a katana, not a Taiwanese POS aluminum import, either. For some reason, the bastard would not let me close w/ him...
Raven, "OSS" are bs. I used to put faith in them too, when I was younger and more ignorant. If one looks at the methodology used, it's obviously flawed. I was fortunate enough to have my initial training under one of Taylor's Combat Masters (Don Busse). The doctrine was two to COM, evaluate, failure to stop if needed. Other schools teach firing until the threat goes down, but since duty handguns are horribly underpowered I am aware of cases where "bullet sponges" absorbed whole magazines of ammo until taken out by a rifle. That is why "OSS" is bs.
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