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Rich Lucibella
December 1, 1998, 10:27 AM
I noticed a thread regarding grappling techniques when wearing the Chalker or Giles sling on the Tactics List. It raises the question as to proper technique when the long gun is grabbed by the bad guy.

Does one lever the weapon to extract himself, slip out of the sling using a Fastex buckle and go to the sidearm or use some other method?

Rich

Harry Humphries
December 1, 1998, 01:53 PM
I'm back so don't pay the ransom!! I hope you all are aware that my schedule will sometimes cause long silent periods from my side, but that should not be construed as lack of interest - quite the contrary as I see this forum as a quality act and intend to be as active as I can.

With respect to RB's question on weapons retention techniques concerning single point and three point slings, let me offer the following:

Wether the primary is fitted with a carry strap, three point tactical sling or a single point, quick release, sling harness, the most important function of the shooter is to deny access to the weapon from the perpetrator. This is obviously done by putting your body or obstacle between the weapon and the un-rusher as best you can and still maintain controlled muzzle orientation towards the attacking opponent. Thus the desirability of short barreled shoulder fired weapons in dynamic room entry and other close distance tactical situations (I know very experienced entry people who prefer to enter with their secondary, or hand gun in the number one position, myself included). Even though shortened barreled weapons tend to be less efficient with respect to ballistic potential of the round, who cares if the target is two feet away.

Once the inevitable occurs, that is the weapon is captured in a manner that takes the opponent out of line of fire - the free- for- all is on! Make no mistake about it you will either win or lose if you allow a wrestling match or tug- o- war to occur. There are several break away techniques that can be offered but they need to be taught properly. Some rules of thumb:
• If barrel is grabbed from the top - drop to a knee and take the shot rapidly as he can drop too if given time to adjust. One can simply circle the barrel towards the opponents thumb if in a one hand grab situation.

• If barrel is grabbed from under or under and over, simply pull the weapon into your chest and step, stock side, into the opponent ducking under opponents arms and take the shoulder throw. The leverage created with this maneuver will probably cause the release before the throw.

• If you are working against an opponent that knows a few things - he will parry and grasp the weapon to his outside -stepping around your strong side and grasp the shoulder /neck mounted sling in a choking manner as he pulls you rearward taking your balance - good night! In fact if you are in a three point sling which is typically slung over neck and shoulder - either strong or weak side through and an opponent simply captures the weapon and falls while twisting - you are dead meat as the choke is on.

• The Chalker quick release system allows the shooter to disengage from the weapon while pushing away from the opponent and presenting the secondary before the captured weapon can be orientated for the shot. Further - the Chalker sling can never be used as a choking garrote as it is a shoulder harness and does not come into neck contact. It can also be used to shoot strong and weak side without having to be remounted and does not interfere with head mounted gear or break the seal on your gas mask - a very bad thing!

By the way, there are imformative photos on our web site that cover some of these CQB retention issues.

Spectre
December 1, 1998, 05:37 PM
HH,

Good answer! Damn. There's really not much left to say now, so about my hunting trip...just kidding! :D

The one thing Harry mentioned that I especially wanted to comment on, is a wrestling match. I have been fortunate enough to never have been in any real combat, but in training, I have found that, if you have to wrestle around, you (gg) are probably screwed, or at least a much higher percentile than one would like. Make it work fast.

As I have mentioned previously, one method that the perp does not usually anticipate at close quarters, is being punched or "speared" with the gun barrel. One very effective grappling/strike move the Bujinkan teaches is in response to a arm grab and pull attack, presumably to be followed by a strike. The perp/uke/attacker expects resistance, and generally puts a good bit of force into the pull. If the defender can just touch the opponent's grabbing hand with the back of their free hand, they will subtly lock it in place long enough to not only not resist the pull, but to step with it, driving the elbow of their "captured" arm into the sternum of the attacker. Ow. In the same manner, if the opponent viciously pulls your longarm towards him, go with it. Add some momentum. There are obvious targets in the upper body. If the opponent's arm is down during the pull, and the primary weapon is pulled at a downward angle, this spearing attack I am mentioning can be directed toward the pelvic area, above the pubic bone. A good strike anywhere in this area will tend to fold the attacker. If one manages to strike where the hips join the pelvis, it both produces an excruciating strike, and spins the attacker's upper body away.

Depending on the legal mores of your situation, and the stupidity of your attacker, one has another choice. Again, the circumstances will dictate if this is an option, but one has the option of letting your opponent shoot himself with your weapon, if the attacker has the muzzle in line with his body. Heck of a retention technique. (I used this one when I was 7 against a much older, and stupider, opponent. The BB hit him just above the eye.)

Rich Lucibella
December 1, 1998, 06:26 PM
Harry-
Thanks for the definitive post (it's becoming your trademark!).

It's clear that the sling requires some specialized practice, as do all tactical accessories. I wonder at the practical use of the Tactical Sling by civilians. Personally, I think the Chalker Sling is an outstanding device for those going into battle, whether they be military or LEO entry teams.

But I don't imagine that most civilians pick up a shotgun or carbine for self defense on a regular basis. Even then, there is little time to "harness up". While it might make sense to keep the CS by the bed, attached to your shotgun, this would presuppose the citizen intended to sally forth and clear the house. Other than the need to reach the kids, I know you'd advise against this technique.

Usually, when I see a non-operator working with such a device I assume he just wants to get some experience with it..sometimes he turns out to be a dyed-in-the-wool wannabe.

As I said, I think the tac sling (Chalker, in particular) is a great contribution to CQC tactics. Am I missing the utility to civilians?
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 12-01-98).]

fal308
December 2, 1998, 11:43 AM
Rich
The only civilian use I can envision is in hunting, especially in a stalk where one needs to glass frequently. Perhaps also in paintball?

SKN
December 2, 1998, 12:48 PM
I realize what follows goes without saying but it bears reviewing. The best retention tactic with any firearm is environmental and situational awareness: muzzle proximity to an adversary or blind obstacle; forceful verbalization to an adversary who's confronted of the consequences of failing to comply; and maintaining the ability to disengage or withdraw.

Should awareness fail then the next best tactic is that advocated by Spectre, using the firearm for its' intended purpose. There are two caveats here. First, that you're going to have to be able to articulate to investigating authorities the reason for that confrontation and that a fear of being disarmed caused a fear for your life so great that pressing the trigger was the only thing you could do. Second, you and yours must be prepared to deal with the potential ramifications, personal and legal, that may follow.

If a struggle over a shoulder weapon does occur then the primary usefulness of a sling is to keep the firearm attached to its' rightful possessor. Either a 2 or 3 point sling can work here but the advantages to the 3 point are more rigorous retention and the ability to bring the weapon on target again quickly.

Physical retention tactics must be simple, practiced, and effected reflexively and immediately with power. If the release technique is unsuccessful then the goals of the physical tactics must be to keep the weapon "wrapped" into your body and to control the muzzle. In a "team" confrontation in which 1 member becomes engaged in a struggle over a weapon, countermeasures should include instantaneous announcement of the disarming attempt to the other member(s) to permit them to attempt an intervention.

Early in my career when the issue weapon was the revolver, a last resort that was taught to avoid having to shoot someone was the "muzzle strike" to the center of the face. This was designed for use against an adversary from whom you were able to disengage after their first attempt to disarm you but who contiuned to close to continue the attempt and it presumed by this time that the weapon was now in your hand. The principle consideration using a muzzle strike with a fixed barrel weapon is proper indexing of the trigger finger outside of the trigger guard. It's been my experience that a sling properly mounted to the body, and used for retention, precludes an effective muzzle strike.

Finally (gee, it's about time you're probably saying to yourself), if the sling is meant to maintain control of a shoulder weapon during a disarming attempt then I'm not sure that it makes much sense to "cut away" this primary weapon into the hands of the adversary to try to access a secondary weapon, even if you do have one.

My thoughts.

Miratio, Incursio et Sestinato.

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited 12-02-98).]

Harry Humphries
December 6, 1998, 03:20 PM
Rich,

I am a proponent of carry straps on carbines, shotguns and will always set up in a hasty sling if firing my M1-14, 700, HK 91, etc. The "specialized slings are just that - specialized.

Miratio,

We need to be on the range or kill house together so we can work out the scenarios I mentioned in my first posting. In any case, if you are in the business, you should follow your convictions as you and you alone are going through the door.

Stay safe,

HH

Mikep
December 8, 1998, 03:22 AM
Whatever technique you choose to employ, remember that if someone grabs for your weapon - you should treat it as a deadly force situation, requiring (demanding) that you use whatever means at your disposal to neutralize the threat. Period.

Hilton
December 8, 1998, 06:35 PM
Some other techniques that I use for long gun retention:
-over/under grab: continue forward pressure and muzzle strike the subject in the sternum
-under grab: rotate the weapon, continuing forward pressure, and strike subject with receiver area of weapon
-over grab: continue forward pressure as you direct muzzle down and strike subject high with butt end of weapon

I favor the use of heavy forward momentum to increase the balance advantage in favor of the weapon bearer, decreasing the possibility for the attacking subject to establish a solid base.

A good exercise for any form of weapon retention is to get a partner to do a grab at reduced power/speed, then try to feel the energy he's giving you to find a way to redirect the weapon to your favor (either with a strike or by discharging the weapon). For those familiar with the Wing Chun kung fu exercise of Chi Sao (sticky hands), it's the same sensitivity/energy drill with a weapon.