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HS
October 25, 1998, 04:53 AM
Is kicking the bad guys testicles somewhere to the region of his larynx un-gentlemanly ? Or say, hitting him in his adam apple a no no ? These are the only guaranteed ways of Winning I know of. Any other (dirty) tricks worth considering ? I am really talking small person vs big person here....HS

Macoute
October 25, 1998, 07:20 AM
A quick rake to the eyes is usually startling to your opponent and will by you time for a follow up blow or time to beat feet.

Rich Lucibella
October 25, 1998, 08:54 AM
Right thumb thru right eye socket tends to get their attention.
Rich

fal308
October 25, 1998, 09:57 AM
Raking down the side of the leg with your foot works if already in contact. Can work if opponent is in front or behind you. Could also try kicking out the kneecap at an angle.

o1paw
October 25, 1998, 11:58 AM
HS,
If he's real, real close, a good head butt to the nose can buy you some time( followed of course with a strike to the adams apple and a front kick to the privates http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif) You can use the head butt is he's facing you, or if he's got you in a bear hug from behind. It usually results it the perp not being able to see clearly for a few seconds cause of the agony in his nose( dont forget the complimentary kick to the ribs, groin, or face while he's down http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif)
Take care,
01paw

Kodiac
October 25, 1998, 05:23 PM
This is why we all have a one hand opening knife clipped to a pocket... http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif

If we are talking less than leathal - The legs are the hardest part of the body to defend. Target knees for a quick and painfull take down. One that will leave them limping badly for a long time.
I also like strikes to the eyes... As Rich pointed out - They will have something other than YOU on thier minds after such a hit.

ShadedDude
October 25, 1998, 05:54 PM
If my life was depending on it, I would do do whatever nessisary to live. (I.E. kick groin, punch adams apple, bite, pull hair, dig in finger nails) When it comes to your life, I dont think fighting nasty is against the rules.

4V50
October 25, 1998, 10:06 PM
Each individual has a different threshold of tolerance for pain which may vary for that individual depending on their state of mind or narcotic influence. A kick to the balls does not guarentee dropping a man nor does a blow to the adam's apple (there may be enough O2 in the brain for him to continue fighting).

Shaded Dude is right. In a streetfight, there are no rules and the most important thing for you is to come out in one piece. Everything is fair game. Oh, don't pull hair when you can do a hair takedown instead.

chris in mo
October 26, 1998, 02:06 AM
Kodiac....I agree about the Knife clipped to the pocket. There was an article in a magazine a while back about Ernest Emmerson. They discussed the fact that he teaches a knife fighting course in addition to making the knives. Along with the article were a couple of pictures of various techniques that he teaches. The one that they showed to counter a rear bear hug type of attack made me cringe. After being grabbed from the back the victim removed a pocket folder from its position clipped to the front pocket of her jeans. She opened the knife one handed and reached behind the leg of the attacker slashing the tendons behind the knee. It was a staged demonstration, but just the thought of that shook me, I can just imagine how disabling that would be. I think it is a good one to keep in your bag of tricks. I have practiced this move many times since reading the article.

HS
October 26, 1998, 06:52 AM
Hmmm, thanks for ALL the suggestions guys. There were a few I didn't think of that would came in handy. Guess the best thing to do is be aware of your surroudings and don't get into the hole in the first place. But having a plan of what to do is helpfull...HS

Harry Humphries
October 26, 1998, 10:04 AM
All fights go to the ground if continued long enough. In our AFCQC fighting system we work with three disciplines: The gun, edged weapons and grappling.

If the encounter has closed to a point where presentation of the hand gun or availability of a hand gun is not a reality than one must be prepared to deal with the edged weapon, hopefully, legally carried. We espouse to the combat style folding knife which can be carried by men or women. The key feature of the folder must be that it has a liner lock, blade locking system that is not readily contacted in stressful situations. That is to say that any blade locking system that can be compressed by grip pressure should be avoided as the obvious potential outcome is not satisfactory. Blade shape, metal or polymer type, blade configuration - all of these things are more personal taste issues and not critical. Safe and sharp is where it's at.

If the edged weapon is not available or practical than one must be prepared to get inside of the kicking and punching distance- close and hang on to neck or chest area keeping the head down or protected.. Techniques easily taught all require this basic step. Kicks, limb locks, eye nose mouth attacks are all very effective once one has been properly exposed to their execution. Simply hanging or pulling / pushing to get the opponent off balance will work provided there is ferocity in the counter movement.

Make the opponent sorry he dealt with you it is a mind thing much more than a size issue. But avoidance is the real key keep aware of your surroundings and the confrontation will probably never happen.

HH

Spectre
October 26, 1998, 11:52 PM
HH and HS,
You are correct. Situational awareness is by far the important key to going home in one piece. HS, be aware that striking the throat will probably be considered lethal force (it is in GA), so be sure your life or health is on the line before taking such an action. My personal opinion would be that I DO NOT want to go to the ground with an attacker, unless (possibly) I've managed to get behind them. I have been actively training in a combat art for 4 years, but I believe in getting in, doing something nasty and traumatic, and getting out in a hurry. If they have to think about whether they want any more, it may be a good time to run.

Rich Lucibella
October 27, 1998, 09:44 AM
Harry-
I know you're close with Ernie Emerson, who makes some of the finest tactical folders going. Several of us are Emerson knife owners.

But I'm curious as to the recommedation of carrying a folder, without mention of fixed blades. I don't want to turn this into a "what's better?" thread, as the answer is obvious. But I am curious about the lack of reference to the fixed blade alternative.

With the alternatives available today, from neck knives (which I deplore) to acceptable exposed carry belt knives, I would think you'd see more and more of these in your classes, especially among civilian students.
Regards,
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-27-98).]

Kodiac
October 27, 1998, 10:11 AM
Sun Tzu had something to say about that, Spectre. He said (paraphrase) to strike first, and to strike hard enough that your enemy will not be able to strike back.
He was talking about large scale force on force battles... but you can see how this is easily applicable to a solitary man. Either on the street - or in business as a matter of fact.
The Art of War is the best book on the subject... seems like all other books just reiterate what he said ages ago - translating it in modern terms.
Kodiac's recomended reading list, number #7.

Mute
October 27, 1998, 01:58 PM
I can't speak for Mr. Humphries, but for me the folder is more likely to be with me, even though, given a choice, I'd prefer a large fixed blade.

The reason is, I live in CA and on a day to day basis, at work and in public, a folder in a pocket won't draw any attention. A fixed blade of any kind has to be carried in the open. I can see people just moving away with a stare everywhere I go. That would make me inclined to leave it at home.

With a folder I know it will ALWAYS be with me and I think that is something that is true for a majority of people who chooses to follow that path.

Rich Lucibella
October 27, 1998, 02:12 PM
Mute-
No argument from me. The knife that saves your life is the one that you have with you.

However, of late, I see fixed blades with increased frequency, both concealed and open. I now carry one daily, usually with the handle exposed, and people don't seem to give it a second glance. That's why I asked the question.

I recognize that you California residents are somewhat hobbled by the absurd gun/knife laws out there. You have my deepest sympathies.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-27-98).]

HS
October 28, 1998, 05:50 AM
About folders, just a quote fom an Aussie," That's not a knife, THIS is a KNIFE"..grin...HS

Kodiac
October 28, 1998, 09:17 AM
How come I knew he was going to say that? http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif

Harry Humphries
October 28, 1998, 11:28 AM
All good points with respect to the edged weapons discussion. Rich I too am a fixed blade aficionado, but if one considers the edged weapon as a defensive device, that device needs to be at hand at all times. It need be out of reach only that one time rendering all choices mute points.

While I will carry any one of my favorite Randall fixed blades in tactical or woodland gear, I certainly can't go to dinner or the office with a sheath hanging from my belt and it really causes havoc at the airport. So my folder of choice is one that is innoxious to the eye. Legal length and configuration is a must if you want to get it on an airplane. My personal choices are Emerson's custom knives, any one of them, as number one. From the production folders,(and there are many very good ones provided they are liner lock types), my first choice is Emerson's "Commander" which is designed to deploy as it is withdrawn from the scabbard or pocket, it is the fasted deploying folder I know of. Chris Carrachi's design that is or was made by Benchmade was also a very good folder, for my taste.

HH

Mr Black
October 28, 1998, 03:06 PM
Speaking of knives and airports, I was recently not permitted to take my folder past security because it was considered a "melicious knife". Do you want to know what made it qualify as melicious? The lady actually told me that it was the point on the end of the knife and the serrations on the blade. Unbelievable! Apparently this is a new policy because she showed me their little procedures manual and under the 'Knives' category, the word 'serrations' was penciled in as not being allowed. (I think she was making up the part about the point at the end of the blade). Come on now, almost all 'emergency knives' have serrations on them don't they?

Oh, I travel very frequently and I still take my knife past security. They just don't know it.

I feel my rights being chisled away every day...

longhair
October 28, 1998, 04:19 PM
"i know this isn't really the right thread for this, so please forgive me" mr. black, you're right. the government is taking more of our rights away everyday. it's
causing people who are normally law abiding
citizens to become outlaws, having to sneak a knife on a plane, etc.(glad i don't fly) it's a damn shame
that almost anything we do today can be against the law one way or another. it's begining to sound kinda like a police state.
i skirted the line of law and order in my day, that was by choice. now it's by necessity.

[This message has been edited by longhair (edited 10-28-98).]

Spectre
October 28, 1998, 07:36 PM
Kodiak, I would personally, after doing everything reasonably (per Sun Tzu, who advised that winning the battles without fighting was the mark of the great leaders) to avoid conflict, use lethal force immediately...except for the fact that our legal system is SO screwed, that I would rather take a little more risk initially-risking death or serious injury- and lessening my chance of dying a lingering death after downing my first three attackers and being raped by the other twelve in prison. The percentage of HIV-infected inmates is incredible, and those are only the ones who test positive. (FYI- the HIV virus cannot currently be detected in the body. The HIV test is actually testing for antibodies your body puts out to fight HIV. It can be up to 10 years before the HIV goes active and your body starts to combat it.)

Kodiac
October 28, 1998, 08:11 PM
WHOA Spectre - I wasn't advocating galloping straight off to the far end of the "Use of Force" spectrum...
That would be awfully messy if I killed every one I tusseld with... would have killed more people than the plague...

Spectre
October 28, 1998, 10:35 PM
Perhaps I overspoke, Kodiac. What I meant was, if I felt my life was in danger, (after doing my best to avoid dangerous situations, not escalate, etc) I would use lethal force immediately-EXCEPT for the current "PC" environment that may not take kindly to my having shot the individual who demanded my money in the alley. With the political situation as it stands, I am willing to face more immediate risk because I am SCARED TO DEATH of my skinny, boyish little white *ss going to jail.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 10-28-98).]

Rob Pincus
October 28, 1998, 11:38 PM
okay, I noticed this new Forum when I got back from Texas and managed to sit it out for 48 hours, BUT, kodiac.. The Plague?? that is bold my man.

CQC should be quick and brutal. I don't think any of us want to get into a greco-roman wrestling match with Bubba Badguy down at the honky-tonk. But Knives to me are one tiny baby step on the polite side of guns. Personally, I'd rather face the average punk with a gun than someone who knows how to use a knife. I know that a lot of you carry both a knife and a gun regularly, but I can't really think of a scenario where I would use the knife but not use the gun.
If I've got a knife and a gun, the knife is a tool, the gun is my defense. If a problem can be dealt with by the quick use of a grapple, push, pull, twist, or strike, great! Easier for everyone involved, but if it comes to weapon play, its the gun everytime. Knives are messy. Knife fighting is arguably harder to learn that unarmed techniques though. I'd rather spend the time training on gaining time/distance to draw and use a firearm.

Does anyone know cases where use of a knife has been considered less than lethal force?

If the situation is one where you can only carry a knife, then that is the situation.

As far as California goes, I was once pulled out of car at gunpoint during a routine traffice stop because the officer on the right side of the car noticed the clip of a SpyderCo on the outside of my jeans pocket. The knife had a 1.5" blade and I had specifically bought it *Because* I was going to be in southern California for an extended period of time. I still got hassled. It went from "why were you speeding" to.. "Get out of the car slowly, keep your hands where I can see them...". Then their search of my wallet turned up my valid CCW permits from other states, which made things worse instead of better. They became obsessed with the wherabouts of my handguns. They couldn't grasp that they could've been 1500 miles aways and I would still be carrying the permits.
Personally, I know that I never would've been
bothered if I'd've had a PPK in an IWB holster under my jacket. (or if I hadn't been speeding http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif

Rich Lucibella
October 29, 1998, 12:24 AM
Rob-
I used to carry a Seecamp (New York reload). At a knife class with one of our lurkers and Hilton, I was asked the circumstances and distances under which I'd use the Seecamp. By the end of the weekend, I'd replaced the Seecamp with a fixed blade, deeming it more effective for the required task(s). YMMV

In a crowded room, handgun rounds can be a real liability; even at conversational distances. Up close and personal, the handgun remains an anemic fight stopper compared to a good fighting knife, utility knife or kitchen knife, in the right hands.

You've alluded to it yourself. Who poses the greatest risk to you at arm's length? The guy with the .38 special or the guy with the fighting knife.
Rich

Kodiac
October 29, 1998, 12:34 AM
I was once stopped on the free way by VA state troopers. I was doing 5 MPH over and the troop was passing me. He must have read the "PEOPLE SUCK" sticker I had on the bumper and the HK logo on the rear window... He hit the breaks - got behind me and hit his party lights.
I had been out of LE for a month then...
He pulled me over, had me put my hands on the hood... and asked if I would consent to a search of my car.
I said "No"
He got bent out of shape and tried to explain to me how unpleasent it would be if I didn't reconsider letting him search.
I asked him to articulate his probable cause as to why he thinks an NRA instructor would have illegal guns or drugs in his car. I hadn't told him who I was, and that I helped this trooper on a search six months prior - he didn't recognize me. Then he saw on the floor of my passenger side... a Shotgun News. He asked if I was in a Militia. I said I WAS the Militia.
The poor guy about lost blood to his brain - it was all sticken out in his viens.
He called back up.
Two other units arrived... The saw me and told the first trooper who I was... Number 1 then got in his car and stewed. for awhile. I had words with the other troopers... and then the first gau came back "Sign this - you know where."
Sucker wrote me for the FIVE OVER...
Can't believe it - he wrote me... for +5... after branding me a threat to humanity.

It got thrown out because he had forgot to give me my pink copy... I didn't remind him either.

Rob Pincus
October 29, 1998, 12:45 AM
The crowded room deal is one reason that I mentioned the HTH training to get into a position to draw and use a weapon. I had to worry about this a lot during a period of time, I chose to carry a .380 with Blasers and train in CQC techniques, conciously focusing on the fact that the gun may not be an option, or require a change in position or closing of distance, even inside a room, before it could be safely employed.

All the good knife training I have recieved has been basically an extension of HTH skills. These same skills without the knife can be used to end a conflict or buy time to use a firearm. That is my preference, as long as I have the choice to carry and use the firearm.

I once got into an argument with a ticket counter employee over the fact that I could kill her with almost everything on her desk (long story.. I'll tell ya sometime... meanwhile, don't try this at your local airport..). That doesn't mean I want to carry a ball point pen or a telephone cord instead of my Glock.

HS
October 29, 1998, 04:41 AM
KODIAC, ha ha ha ha ha, GRIN ! Hey, can I get the video of your offense ? Or better yet, submit it to Americas Funniest Video. http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif Back to U.C.A.P (new acronym !) Has the use of a Kubuton been accepted as a QCQ tool ? The're all the rage in our club. An innocuous bit of wood on your key ring with the ability to cause great pain and suffering if used correctly and not a metal detector hazard ! Just a thought....HS

Kodiac
October 29, 1998, 10:39 AM
A mini mag lite works well as a kubuton, and in an officers weapon load he will have one or another thing like it, cuffs (yes you can use them as a weapon - if you dont know, I can't tell you), cheical spray (10% Pepper Foam is my favorite), a baton of some sort side handle, expanding ( ASP ), a full sized light - Mag or Stream etc., edged weapons, leather sap (If you don't - try one... they are fun), various backup guns, duty gun, and then the trunk-gun or what ever you call your patrols long gun - of whatever type it is.
There are a lot of weapons an officer has... and there are situations for ALL of them. And he should train with ALL of them.

A citizen on the other hand has his Spyderco Clipit and his Glock 19...

Rob Pincus
October 29, 1998, 11:32 AM
Cuffs are great... http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif

HS
October 30, 1998, 09:07 AM
Rob, cuffs? Beating someone senseless with the bottom part of your trousers would seem impractical !...grin http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif...HS

fal308
October 30, 1998, 10:02 AM
HS Maybe he uses a lot of starch http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif

Rob Pincus
October 30, 1998, 11:48 AM
The chinese guy who owns the cleaners told me it was an ancient secret. Lots of starch and hit them with your shin! (I recommend shin pads when you first start training..)

Kodiac
October 30, 1998, 01:18 PM
Rob! SSSHHH! You were not supposed to tell!

Kodiac
October 30, 1998, 01:29 PM
Some one E-mailed me a good idea to consider... they didnt want to post it - but I think it is a great idea, so I will post it - You can claim it if you want:

Big steel ball bearings. They can be thrown most effectively. And the always hit pointy side first. http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif
If your wearing a jacket open on a breazy day, you put them in your jacket pockets and it will keep the jacket weighted down - helping to conceal that Glock 10MM on your hip.

It is worth consideration.
Ever throw a big bearing? They hit hard... and against a human - would probably do more damage than throwing your Spyderco unless you grew up in a circus and can throw and stick knives at will. I sure can't.
I'ld rather take a guy at distance than up close. But up close - in your hand its as good as a roll of quarters.

Mark Cook
October 30, 1998, 01:30 PM
Regarding Kodiac's comment about a "citizen with his SpyderCo Clipit and Glock 19", that's pretty durn close but not enough.

My regular carry is the SpyderCo Endura clipped in my left front pocket (I'm ambi: I knife-fight with my left and shoot right eye/right hand), my Glock 23 in my beltpack, and...

...keep an ASP kubotan (w/ the concealed pepper sprayer built-in) on my keychain. This makes the keychain a *serious* non-lethal weapon. With the pepper spray for distance, and the kubotan and keys-as-flail for up close, I have more self-defense options than most. It makes the 7-11 parking lot at 3AM feel a lot less creepy! :^)

Regards,

- Mark C.
Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
Front Sight First Family member #1

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mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-753-2732 Fax: 541-753-2738 http://www.ssgfx.com
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HS
October 30, 1998, 05:27 PM
Kodiac et al. Imagine this scene: Big tough guy is sittin' in his prison cell, all the scum are talkin' 'bout how they come to be there. He has to relate how some guy " Balled" him to submission. Guess who's gonna be the "wife" in that cell ! ha ha ha ha ....HS http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif

Spectre
October 30, 1998, 05:54 PM
Even more explainable to interested LEO is a baseball...and, be careful where you throw your ball bearings. I can't find any of mine... http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif

Rob Pincus
October 31, 1998, 01:39 AM
True story:

I was pulled over in NJ (do you sense a recurring theme, yet?) and when I opened my glove compartment the "officer" (summer cop in a shore town...) asked my to remove the "metal object." It was the key to the lock-lug on my wheels. He claimed that becuase of its wieght it was consider a weapon in NJ and I should keep it locked in the trunk. Then a sergeant showed up and told him he was basically a complete freakin idiot and to tell me to have a good evening.

AND, if I was carrying around big steel balls my wife would definitely wonder what I was up to.

HS
October 31, 1998, 05:40 AM
OK, which one of you stole my RUBBER TREE? - Mr Queeg (clack..clack)

[This message has been edited by HS (edited 10-31-98).]

HS
October 31, 1998, 05:47 AM
Nothin' to do with CLOSE Q.C but worth mentioning. Ice Cubes launched from a SLINGSHOT. Hit real hard and don't leave a trace in summer. We have to be inventive in Aus. since they took 1/2 our toys away...grin http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/wink.gif...HS

Rich Lucibella
October 31, 1998, 09:14 AM
Rob-
I can see the headlines now: Third Vigilante Attack by the Ben Wa Killer.
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-31-98).]

Rob Pincus
October 31, 1998, 12:28 PM
Thank you, Rich! Now I can stop trying to figure out waht I am going to be for Halloween!

Ed Brunner
October 31, 1998, 07:50 PM
Why do you guys keep getting stopped by the police?????

Kodiac
October 31, 1998, 11:54 PM
Well, when your used to driving code 2 every place to go... It becomes a habit...
http://www.thefiringline.com/ubb/smile.gif

Rich Lucibella
November 1, 1998, 12:30 AM
Sorry, guys. Time too lock this one down. Some people have slow modems and the download is unusually long. I think this topic is done.
Thanks for the input. By all means start a new thread on the subject, if you wish.
Rich Lucibella