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View Full Version : Report of Worn Holster causing AD


beequick
March 29, 2011, 11:14 PM
This article certainly made me double check all my leather holsters

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

FrankenMauser
March 29, 2011, 11:43 PM
Failure to maintain or replace equipment is not the fault of the equipment that fails.

beequick
March 29, 2011, 11:44 PM
Very true. This was just a warning to make sure all your equipment is in good working order

45Gunner
March 30, 2011, 12:28 AM
I recently acquired a holster that fits outside the waistband but inside the belt. However, it is made of Kydex so I doubt that this would happen but it is good to know so I can keep an eye on it.

I have been wearing leather holsters for over 40 years. One in particular gets worn nearly every day for the past 15 years and is just a rigid as the day I purchased it. I have never put any leather treatment on it nor any type of oils. Once a year or so, I may put a very light touch of shoe polish on it to hide some of the scuffs.

Most leather holster manufacturers advise/warn against treating the holster like a baseball glove that recommends some type of oil treatment. I am curious if you used any type of oil, leather softener, or water proofing agent?

Wildalaska
March 30, 2011, 12:52 AM
Only with a Glock. Reading that and looking at the pics, a 1911 or revolver wouldnt have gone off.


WildgeewatchtheglockophilescomeoutAlaska ™©2002-2011

FTG-05
March 30, 2011, 07:43 AM
"A warning to those that are idiots" is more like it.

Rifleman1776
March 30, 2011, 08:18 AM
He should have known it wasn't in the holster properly. Don't blame the holster, the wearer is at fault. If I saw that area getting soft I would cut it away. It is obvious this wasn't the first time that area got creased. He was careless. Period.

CWKahrFan
March 30, 2011, 08:21 AM
Jeepers creepers... Another thing to know about... Thanks for the link!

Constantine
March 30, 2011, 11:39 AM
Yeah.....Floppy holsters get tossed out. My leather Don Hume has NO sign of ever even wanting to get floppy and saggy like that. Though if it does, to the trash it goes.

Rifleman1776
March 30, 2011, 12:24 PM
BTW, don't Glocks have a safety?

ChrisJ715
March 30, 2011, 12:43 PM
Not an external/manual safety

steve54
March 30, 2011, 06:33 PM
“What the hell was that?!?” she said. It took me a half a second to realize that my gun had just gone off…on my hip…in its holster. My wife and I had just finished breakfast at our favorite café and got into the car.

Me being the passenger, I rotated my torso to the left to fasten my seatbelt like I always do. When I straightened again, my Glock 19 discharged, blowing a 9mm hole through my pants, underwear, the leather seat and bottom of the car’s door frame.
...

This truly brings home the importance of taking care of your equipment and ensuring it’s in proper working order. Hopefully you can learn from my situation and prevent an accident like this from happening to you

http://www.flickr.com/photos/itstactical/5547242760/lightbox/

Don P
March 30, 2011, 06:54 PM
I'm curious as to why the holster softened up to the degree it did. All my carry holster are leather and to date none have softened from daily use. I'm here to tell you I sweat profusely in summer months here in FLA. Strange.

glock4epton
March 30, 2011, 06:57 PM
All the other firearm forums I have been on harp on the fact that there is NO such thing as "accidental discharge"...sounds like negligence was the culprit in this case....

AK103K
March 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
That type holster is just an accident waiting to happen anyway. I can pretty well see exactly how it happened too. If youve worn one, or someting similar, you know exactly what Im referring to.

The exposed muzzle is easily bumped upwards if it encounters something when you sit or squat, often to the point of dumping the gun. Get conditioned to constantly be pushing it back down, and you can see the result if things arent right when you do it.

AK103K
March 30, 2011, 07:06 PM
I'm curious as to why the holster softened up to the degree it did. All my carry holster are leather and to date none have softened from daily use. I'm here to tell you I sweat profusely in summer months here in FLA. Strange.
I quit wearing leather, but especially in the summer, once kydex showed up. I sweat a lot and work and play actively outdoors and I was going through two Galco Royal Guards a year, rotating them day to day in the summer. They got wet, "soft", and never dried out while being worn.


I think what happened with the one above was, it was used a lot, and the gun was improperly holstered/reholstered a couple of times, breaking and softening its form even more, and this last time, it caught up with him.

Jeremiah/Az
March 30, 2011, 07:12 PM
The photos look like he is right handed & the crease is on the left side of the holster & against his body. With the belt on the outside, I can see how a crease could be made. It doesn't look like the hoster is quite deep enough to fully cover the trigger or the gun not fully in it.

Glenn Bartley
March 30, 2011, 08:42 PM
All the other firearm forums I have been on harp on the fact that there is NO such thing as "accidental discharge"...sounds like negligence was the culprit in this case.... That is because people either do not know or want to admit that accidental is the opposite of purposeful and not the opposite of negligence. Negligence has to do with finding fault, in an accident you can either be negligent or not.

Any holster that might cause an accident as described is either defective, way too worn out, or a piece of junk.

After looking at the pics, and reading the story, I would say my personal opinion is that this was done accidentally but that the owner of the holster was negligent not to have replaced such a damaged/deformed holster. (Of course, under different circumstances, it may have just acutely deformed like that and thus that would change percentage of negligence markedly if so - maybe even negate it). The manufacturer also may have been negligent in the actual manufacture of a holster that would deform like that in such short time if under normal wear and use conditions. The holster does not seem to have a reinforced or doubled top back edge, no stitching, nothing to add strength to keep it from deforming. Lawyers could have a field day with that had someone been shot and tried to sue. With all those pics, I wonder was the photographer:rolleyes: a lawyer:rolleyes: or working for one?

Very lucky no one was hurt except for the small wound.

Thanks for sharing that one. There is a lot to learn about checking gear for wear and tear and so on.

All the best,
GB

BlueTrain
March 31, 2011, 05:47 AM
I can believe this sort of thing happening with certain trigger mechanisms, like the Glock and all similar. I suppose it could easily happen with a single action automatic whose safety was somehow flipped down. I've notice the very same thing happening with one of my own holsters, although this particular hoster was relatively soft to begin with. In the case reported in this thread, you would think that the gun would be more likely to accidentally discharge upon reholstering rather than while actually being worn normally.

Maybe that's why Ruger put that unnecessary safety on their LC9.

Another thing about reholstering an automatic pistol is the tendency for the slide to push back if it is a tight fit and the pistol does not have a locking safety like a Colt Government Model. I also think about the magazine being released accidentally, which would seem to be so easy with a typical thumb release, yet I have to admit that it has never happened to me.

AK103K
March 31, 2011, 06:16 AM
In the case reported in this thread, you would think that the gun would be more likely to accidentally discharge upon reholstering rather than while actually being worn normally
The problem with this type holster is, youre constantly reholstering/reseating the gun at some level with them, just wearing them. I spent some time with a similar holster early on, and I swear, I had more trouble with it than I ever did, just carrying the gun Mexican style. Youre constantly reseating the gun in the holster, and many times, catching it as it comes completely out.

From looking at the pics, Id be willing to bet, he sat down, the gun got pushed up, he reached back, shifting a little and pushed it back down, slightly off from the way it came out, and possibly even catching the edge with the muzzle, causing it to cave inwards.

A proper, fitted holster, with no straps, and a solid, fixed opening, that covers the whole gun below the grip, is your best bet safety wise.

Another thing about reholstering an automatic pistol is the tendency for the slide to push back if it is a tight fit and the pistol does not have a locking safety like a Colt Government Model.
That would have actually been a plus in this case, as the gun would not have fired if the slide was out of battery, and even if it was physically pushed forward after the fact, the trigger would have to be reset and pulled to fire the gun.

Seaman
March 31, 2011, 07:01 AM
"...a 1911 or revolver wouldnt have gone off."

Wildalaska is right, the Glock is already half-cocked, with a short light pull it goes boom. Guess thats why other manufacturers make their triggers a very l-o-n-g pull.

If I were carrying a Glock, it would be in a non-stretchable holster, made of plastic or kydex or similar.

Or install an after-market external frame safety.

Vt.birdhunter
March 31, 2011, 07:50 AM
Only with a Glock. Reading that and looking at the pics, a 1911 or revolver wouldnt have gone off.


How do you figure? If you inserted a DA revolver INCORRECTLY and IRRESPONSIBLY into a holster as this fella did, it could pull back the trigger the same way the glock was fired.

FTG-05
March 31, 2011, 07:52 AM
Or install an after-market external frame safety.

Does such a thing exist? Link?

Thanks,

madmo44mag
March 31, 2011, 08:11 AM
Just my 2 cnets.
1st it is a Glock with the saftey on the trigger.
2nd the wearer knew he had a worn holster and continued to use it.

Skadoosh
March 31, 2011, 08:26 AM
A holster with enough leather to FULLY cover the trigger would have prevented this.

Seaman
March 31, 2011, 10:21 AM
Ahoy FTG-05

Below is link to Midways listing (if I did it right), with user reviews.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=247176&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20Gun%20Parts%20-%20Pistol%20-%20(Aftermarket)-_-PriceCompListing-_-247176

Glock also produced frame safetys for special orders to a few countries, the Glock 17S, tho these are rare.

Don P
March 31, 2011, 10:22 AM
I finally looked at the photo. This falls right on the owner. We had a saying when I was much younger and it is, when you're dumb you suffer. I will classify this as a negligent discharge. The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.:eek:

BlueTrain
March 31, 2011, 10:29 AM
Some of the pre-Model 1911 .45 automatics did not have thumb safeties, though they did have grip safeties. Supposedly some of the holsters made form them had a feature to help prevent the grip safety from being depressed, the same way the later holster for the .45 had a little bump (for want of a better word) to prevent the magazine release from being depressed while the pistol was being carried in the holster. If that wasn't enough, some of the early magazines even had a lanyard ring.

I finally realized that under some situations, a gun will want to slip out of the holster. The old S&W Model 3913LS was rather bad for that because of the tapered frame. So in my case, I've decided that a thumbsnap type of strap maybe isn't such a bad idea. Now if I could just keep the leather from squeaking. I mentioned the thing about the slide being pushed back upon reholstering. If you thought that carrying chamber empty would be a good idea (but let's not re-open that issue otherwise) because of the reason as described as the subject of this thread, then it would be possible to chamber a round without your being aware of it, thereby creating an unsafe situation. Of course, it would have to be pushed back quite a bit and if you already had a round chambered (like this Glock), then I don't know what would happen.

dalegribble
March 31, 2011, 10:42 AM
so is this really a holster issue or a gun issue? could you reasonably expect the same results with say a 1911? i have read over time other ad's with glocks and always there seems to have been some outside force that "caused" the ad and "not" the guns fault.

209Man
March 31, 2011, 12:09 PM
Nice to know, being new to handguns, I would have never thought of this.

FTG-05
March 31, 2011, 01:15 PM
Seaman,

Thanks, I had no idea that aftermarket safeties for Glock existed. I knew about the very limited Glock versions, but not the aftermarket ones.

Too bad it's $75 each, that seems a bit high. Plus it's not clear how hard it is to install it. Looks likes some drilling is necessary.

Thanks,

Kreyzhorse
March 31, 2011, 01:17 PM
A good lesson, regardless of what you carry, that if your equipment is worn out, replace it.

TailGator
March 31, 2011, 01:34 PM
I can't blame the gun. Using a decent holster is just as basic for a Glock as using the thumb safety is for a 1911. There are several semis besides Glocks that lack thumb safeties, as do all revolvers of which I am aware, and that holster would have been a risk for any of them.

Vanya
March 31, 2011, 03:09 PM
I will classify this as a negligent discharge. The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.
Exactly. Another saying that comes to mind here is "penny-wise and pound-foolish." The OP was very lucky that neither he nor anyone else was seriously injured, or worse.

If you don't replace equipment that you know to be in an unsafe condition -- you're negligent.

Wildalaska
March 31, 2011, 03:16 PM
How do you figure? If you inserted a DA revolver INCORRECTLY and IRRESPONSIBLY into a holster as this fella did, it could pull back the trigger the same way the glock was fired.

You would need to be twice as stupid to pull that stunt with a revolver :)

Thats the downside of Glocks. Yes they always go bang, just like an AK. But like an AK, their design is for folks who don't know how to use a flush toilet, ie, the lowest common denominator.

In trained or experienced hands, all the no safety plastic fantastics are wonderful. But in the hands of the untrained, inexperienced or irresponsible, which is their primary market, they can be a problem.

Thats why the XD is superior

Me and and my bud had to cut our shooting session last weekend a bit short due to plastigun people banging away next to us. Not worth our time to correct them, especially since the one doing the training of his totally lost partner was acting like a know it all...especially as he got a solid 12 inch group with his Polymer wondergun at 7 yard.

Of course I was a jerk too... when they asked for a cease fire, I asked them to hold to fire my last shot and proceeded to pop a clay pigeon fragment at 50 yards with my High Standard, then gave 'em a wink

WildstresscityheretodayAlaska ™©2002-2011

BlueTrain
March 31, 2011, 03:26 PM
Overall, I'd have to call this a freak accident. It isn't something you hear about all that often, after all, though you do seem to hear more about Glock mishaps than about other guns. I have two automatics myself and one of them does not have a thumb safety by design, meaning it and a few others designed at the same time do not have them because they were designed to a certain specification that called for no safety switches (or words to that effect). But given that it was a German police specification, I can only assume they considered a pistol without one was still safe enough. My other one has a slide mounted safety that does not lock the slide. Both are hammer fired and do not have light triggers. Either way, it should tell you there is some risk to carrying around a loaded gun, though it is probably a lot less than driving back and forth to work.

AK103K
March 31, 2011, 06:21 PM
I see the issue here and that is you did not use a Glock holster.
Glocks dont need special holsters. In fact, they really dont need a holster anymore than anything else, if your reasonable in you handling.

Now we know why there is a thumb safety on the 1911.
I carried 1911's most of my adult life, and on many occasions, the thumb safety got knocked off while in the holster sometime during the day. Ive also had a few 1911's that had inoperable grip safeties, right out of the box. The 1911's are just as dangerous as anything else, and arent immune to troubles. I learned a long time ago, you dont want a holster with a safety strap. I learned that with a 1911, and luckily, I caught it before it got to problem status.

The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.
While I agree for the most part, to be fair, this could have been the first time, and he got to learn his lesson right off. Lucky him. :)

so is this really a holster issue or a gun issue? could you reasonably expect the same results with say a 1911? i have read over time other ad's with glocks and always there seems to have been some outside force that "caused" the ad and "not" the guns fault.
Other than a part failing, whether you like it or not, it all comes down to user error.

I'd have to call this a freak accident.
I wouldnt call it a freak accident, just one that that had a high probability of the inevitable. I'll bet he had plenty of warnings all along, whether he knew it or not, either way, he chose to ignore them.

Deerhunter25
March 31, 2011, 08:14 PM
Lol Wild.

BlueTrain
April 1, 2011, 05:56 AM
OK, why do you not want a holster with a safety strap?

Do you realize that the holster issued to German military police for the P7 has a thong type retaining strap, just like on Western style holsters from the 1950s. I was dumbfounded when I saw the photos, several, in fact, but apparently that's the setup they use. The rest of the army uses other pistols.

AK103K
April 1, 2011, 08:05 AM
Safety straps cause problems reholstering (that strap is like a trigger finger if you dont mind it), and many times, they require two hands to get the gun back in. The strap in the trigger guard was the main reason I started to cut them off, and buying holsters without them.

I had a couple of brand name holsters that had them, and they were almost always unsnapped at the end of the day anyway. A good, form fitted holster, or one with tension screws is much better and simple.

I'm not in the Bundeswehr or the Polizei, so I could care less what they, or any other outfit does. I had a P7M13 when they first came out, and they do require a decent holster, especially if worn IWB appendix fashion. The guns are butt heavy and dont have enough barrel to keep them in your pants.

Unfortunately, when I had mine, decent holsters for them were about non existent, so you had to deal with what there was. I was more worried about the mag release being hit and dumping the mag than I was about the gun coming out though. Even when wearing a "pistol pocket" with the strap removed, the gun stayed put when it flipped out and hung upside down on my belt when I would bend over. Needless to say, I quit carrying it that way.

hartlock
April 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
I think this was caused more by the type of gun the op was using then the
type of holster. I have been using a Galco slide holster for my Para 10-45
for over 5 years, and havent had anything like that happen to me. And, it
doesnt require me to "readjust" it all the time, either. Glocks are famous for
AD'S, and that why i wont buy another til they put a manual safety on them!

BlueTrain
April 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
There shouldn't be any reason to hurry when reholstering a handgun.

Will Beararms
April 1, 2011, 09:40 AM
This applies to me and me only and does not mean that I have animosity towards anyone who does not agree with me. I will not carry any handgun with a round in the chamber that does not have one or both of these: manual safety and/or grip safety.

Again it is no personal to anyone who carries a Glock or similar weapon. It is irrefutable that they are one of the finest and most reliable weapons out there. For the money, I think they are the most durable, well made weapon. I just cannot get past no grip or manual safety. I feel the same way about revolvers, S&W M&P's with no manual safety, Sigs with no manual safety,Kel Tecs, Rugers, etc.

Due to the Glocks great slide action, I would carry it Israeli style if I owned one. The time needed to rack the slide would also serve as time to determine shoot/no shoot.

Will Beararms
April 1, 2011, 09:55 AM
Steve: Hindsight is 20/20 but here goes: "One word----Kydex". Remember when Glock came out with their holsters? Ugly----yes sir they are but they work. I really like the concealment potential for the Glock 19 in relation to the capacity. I am not a 9mm fan but if I owned one, there is a good chance it would be a Glock 19. For the size, the firepower is excellent. Everyone I have been around has been reliable and very accurate.

I am a platform guy when it comes to pistols. My go-to is the 1911 platform. It is more than just the .45ACP cartridge, it is the total package. The G19 is to me, the best platform for the 9mm round when all things are considered.

I want you to know this lest you think I am a Glock basher. I have owned two and will probably own a G19 before it is all said and done. I will carry it Israeli style.

GuyM9
April 1, 2011, 09:55 AM
This is not meant as a slam against Glocks, I believe in "to each his own." But, this is the very reason I sold all my Glocks. They can and do go "boom" when the trigger is pulled, and there is no other mechanism to prevent it from happening. I still think Mr. Browning made one of the best designs ever which were carried thru to the High Power and to some extent the BDM.

Guy

Don P
April 1, 2011, 10:10 AM
They can and do go "boom" when the trigger is pulled, and there is no other mechanism to prevent it from happening.

What happened to the most important safety, the one between the ears?

Sarge
April 1, 2011, 10:30 AM
Stock trigger setup on your gun, Steve54?

AK103K
April 1, 2011, 10:49 AM
I can easily see what happened here happening with any gun with a DA trigger, and SA triggers where the safety has been knocked off, are even worse. This wasnt a gun issue.


I have been using a Galco slide holster for my Para 10-45
for over 5 years, and havent had anything like that happen to me. And, it
doesnt require me to "readjust" it all the time, either.
But you do/did have to readjust it "sometime", right?

Im also willing to bet, once you start doing it and get used to it, you do it more than you think too.

A lot of this too, has to do with what you do, and how you do it. Some holsters are totally inappropriate for certain lifestyles.

I know with what I do for a living, using that type holster, Id be picking the gun up off the ground all day long. I need a holster that covers the bulk of the gun (especially the side against my body), and holds the gun securely without straps or snaps. I cant wear leather in the summer, and that pic of the holster in question isnt, or hasnt even been damp from my standpoint. Kydex really is one of the best holster materials going, and for a number of reasons.

Realistically, once that gun goes on your belt in the morning, you really shouldnt have to touch it for any reason (other than use), the rest of the day. If you are, then you need to work on something.


There shouldn't be any reason to hurry when reholstering a handgun.
Very true, but there are times when you need to and/or are distracted while doing so.

Complacency is another problem, and probably the worst of the lot. You get to comfortable doing things and you get sloppy.

I will not carry any handgun with a round in the chamber that does not have one or both of these: manual safety and/or grip safety.
Safeties are kind of a trick question kind of thing. People put great (or maybe "blind" is a better choice of words) faith in them, and then they are surprised, because something happens when they "shoudnt" have.

As Ive said earlier, I often found the thumb safties on my 1911's had been knocked off at some point during the day, and I had no idea until the gun was pulled from its holster that night for a wipe down. Ive also had a number of 1911's where the grip safeties were inoperable, right out of the box (you have and continually check yours for function, right?).

Using a holster like the one in this case, its entirely feasible that a 1911 or anything else for that matter, could have given the same result.


I think the real solution here, is to choose a proper holster for your lifestyle, and make sure it really is the right choice (that means experimenting with it and proving it beforehand). I know someone who spent $2500 on a pistol, and bought a $5 Uncle Mikes holster out of the bargain bin for it. Some people are just oblivious when to come to common sense. Then again, if you dont actually carry much, it might seem fine. That too can be part of the problem.

You also have to constantly pay attention to your gear and stay on top of it. You take care of the gun (I hope), why arent you giving the holster the same attention, and at the same time?

BlueTrain
April 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
I still say it's a freak accident, which is not to say it isn't easy enough to understand. The thing is, I'm not about to bash the person so hard over the head about the things he has told us about. If I was him, I'd never make another post here about stupid things he's done. I've done my share of stupid things (only a few involving firearms or something dangerous) and I'd rather not subject myself to the kind of responses that could only be expected.

I for one am not able to maintain 100% attention 100% of the time. I am therefore an accident waiting to happen, or so I gather. But I would still be interesting to hear about the next holster the man picks out--or the next gun.

You know, I'm constantly having to readjust my belt, my pants, my tie. Are those hardware problems or software problems?

Will Beararms
April 1, 2011, 11:18 AM
I have to agree the biggest safety is the one between the ears. From there it is all about comfort to me. I am not comfortable without a manual or grip safety when carrying a handgun with one in the pipe and as AK103K has wisely pointed out, even then things go wrong. The one common denominator I see here that I like is the idea of a firm or rigid holster covering the trigger guard.

Eagle0711
April 1, 2011, 11:27 AM
This boils down to common sense, and knowing your gun. When carrying my Glock I'm always aware of anything touching the trigger. Even with the best holster your shirt can get wrapped up in the trigger guard and cause it to fire.

Practice is necessary for muscle memory, because if your stressed you will act as you've trainned.

I'm totally confident carrying a Glock with a chambered round. Just be aware.

BigBob3006
April 1, 2011, 07:22 PM
Steve,

There is nothing I or anyone else can say that you haven't already said to yourself. So I'll just let it go with, I'm very happy that you and your wife are both OK. :):):):)

BlueTrain
April 2, 2011, 07:45 AM
I just did some experimenting with the soft holster I referred to earlier. This forum often leads me to do experiments, if not to any new revelations.

My holster is made of real leather and is an inside the waistband style. It has an extra piece of leather around the edge and in the area where the clip is attached but there is no metal except for the clip itself. I prefer clips over loops so it can be used without a belt (while wearing suspenders). The clip holds it very securely, believe me, but holstering the gun is problematic. That is enough to make me want a different one, which would probably be more expensive.

I tried this using the two and only guns I have that would fit and I wasn't able to get any movement in the trigger at all. One gun is a Ruger P345, the other a Walther P5. My drill for holstering them is to put my thumb behind the hammer, so it is easy to feel any movement. However, the reason I do that is mainly to prevent the slide from moving. I wouldn't expect the hammer to move and not the slide, but obviously it could happen.

Now, the funny thing is that the leather is soft enough to fold and get in front of the trigger but only vertically, not horizontally. There isn't enough spare leather for there to be a vertical fold, if you follow me. But, on top of that, the leather is not stiff enough at that point to offer enough resistence to the trigger, enough to move the trigger. The leather isn't all that thick but probably not as thin as some of the suede leather holsters you can buy. The holster is quite comfortable to wear and the .45 Ruger is more comfortable than the 9mm Walther. How about that! And it doesn't squeak, either.

The entire problem and possibility could be prevented with a holster that entended up another two inches on the inside, even using soft leather, and it might even be more comfortable.

Rifleman1776
April 2, 2011, 07:56 AM
For me, this thread is an eye opener. And, for me, the evidence is strong. A Glock that is sans a manual safety it simply a dangerous firearm. I will never have one.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 08:30 AM
If that holster had the doubled up reinforcement at the mouth, which keeps it open for re holstering, this probably would never have happened.

Single layer leather holsters are pliable and tend to collapse even when they are dry and in perfect condition, add dampness, and catch an edge with the muzzle on holstering, and you can see where it might go. Look at that pic again, and think about what I just said.

If youre using a holster made like that, especially one thats made for IWB, or under the belt carry, you may want to think about moving up.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 08:34 AM
And, for me, the evidence is strong. A Glock that is sans a manual safety it simply a dangerous firearm.
The only thing that makes the Glock unsafe, is its user.

What happened here, could easily happened with a SIG, Beretta, S&W, or any gun with a DA trigger. Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.

Sarge
April 2, 2011, 08:49 AM
Not 'just as easily' AK103K. We'd need to know his trigger pull weight and that question has yet to be answered. If it was something like a 3.5 match trigger, it would require only half as much force as my issue G22, at 7.5 pounds.

Then there's the matter of travel. A full-length DA pull like the Beretta, Sig22X Series or the S&W Sigma simply requires a longer, more consistent (not to mention heavier) pressure stroke than a stock, Glock trigger.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 09:06 AM
If the gun and he did what I think happened, even a "heavy" trigger pull probably wouldnt have stopped this if the trigger were to be caught up in the holster like the pic.

Youre thinking of putting light pressure on a trigger, like with control with your finger, Im talking of shoving the gun into the holster with your body weight, or at the very least, the force of your whole arm behind it.

If he was accustomed to doing it, he most likely wouldnt have hesitated, and just pushed the gun home, as he'd done it on a regular basis before.

Sarge
April 2, 2011, 09:08 AM
Youre thinking of putting light pressure on a trigger, like with control with your finger, Im talking of shoving the gun into the holster with your body weight, or at the very least, the force of your whole arm behind it.

Nope, we're talking about the same thing.

mavracer
April 2, 2011, 09:17 AM
What happened here, could easily happened with a SIG, Beretta, S&W, or any gun with a DA trigger. Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.
It's also easily avoided with those designs by pushing the gun into the holster with your thumb behind the hammer on a DA or using your thumb to hold the safety up on the 1911 as you holster.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 09:44 AM
Thats true, and that is an advantage with those type guns.

The 1911's, only if youre aware the safety was off though. A proper 1911 holster usually protects the thumb safety from your body/clothing, and wont let you get your thumb on it, until its come clear. Still, they always seem to find a way to get knocked off, even in the good holsters.

I really think the problem here was a poor choice of holster, and complacency that comes with familiarity.

He obviously did "something" wrong in holstering the gun at some point, to get the side caved in like that. Having tried similar holsters early on, I know what they are like and what problems they generate, especially if you are the least bit active. I was always readjusting the gun (pushing it back down) throughout the day, as every time you sit or squat close to something, the muzzle can catch and force the gun up, and even out of the holster. Do it enough, and it becomes second nature, and done without thought. Not good with something that needs attention paid to it, and especially if youre constantly handling it.

Aguila Blanca
April 2, 2011, 11:36 AM
Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.

Mello2u
April 2, 2011, 11:52 AM
NEGLIGENCE

The failure to use reasonable care. The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances.

Was the fold in the holster noticeable?
Is it reasonable to notice the condition of your holster?
Would a prudent person who noticed the fold in the holster continue to use the holster?

If all the above answers are yes, then using the holster would be negligent.

As the OP said:
This truly brings home the importance of taking care of your equipment and ensuring it’s in proper working order. Hopefully you can learn from my situation and prevent an accident like this from happening to you

Regardless, this post is an opportunity for readers to learn that they should inspect their equipment, not just the firearm and ammunition; for proper condition and function on a regular basis.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 12:08 PM
Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.
If youre relying on them simply because they are there, and dont check them both for function on a regular basis, and dont use a proper holster as well, you very well may have the same issue as this boy did.

If you werent paying attention, and the thumb safety were off, the grip safety would be of no help here, as it would be disengaged if you were gripping the gun, and that light, SA trigger is even more unforgiving.


Regardless, this post is an opportunity for readers to learn that they should inspect their equipment, not just the firearm and ammunition; for proper condition and function on a regular basis.
There ya go.

JohnKSa
April 2, 2011, 01:00 PM
Threads merged.

There are many pistols on the market with either no external safety at all or some sort of trigger safety as the sole external safety of the firearm. When these guns are being carried, the holster is part of the safety system of the handgun and should be treated as such.

When carrying a pistol like the ones described above, the holster should be carefully chosen. It should completely cover the trigger and triggerguard. That will allow the edge of the holster around the trigger guard to be supported by the gun and will keep it from being pushed inward and folding/creasing. That will not only protect the trigger, it will also help the holster maintain its integrity over time.
It should be stiff enough in the region of the triggerguard to completely prevent the trigger from being manipulated by the holster or an outside influence. The edge should be reinforced or should be thick enough that it can't be folded or pushed inward enough to contact the trigger.
It should hold the gun securely enough that the pistol can't easily be bumped/pushed/squeezed up out of the holster far enough to expose the trigger/triggerguard.
As part of the safety system, it should be checked occasionally to make sure it is still "operational" in all the above respects.

Holsters WILL wear out and it's best to determine that a holster is at the end of its duty life during a regular inspection as opposed to by hearing an unexpected loud noise--either an unintentional discharge or the clatter of your gun hitting the floor after a fall from a worn holster.

AK103K
April 2, 2011, 03:48 PM
The holster in question here, is one of those "one size fits most" types, and that in itself, is part of the problem. Most things advertised as do all, or fits all, dont do, or fit, to many things, well.

Your best bet is to get a holster made and fitted for the gun.

Glocks arent the only gun to have accidental discharges, and if anything, its probably more of a numbers thing with them than anything else.

At this point, not even counting those in civilian hands, with all the police and other agencies that issue/authorize them, there are probably just more of them floating around, many of which are in the hands of people that arent "gun" people, and its just another tool on their belt.

To be perfectly honest, those people are probably better off with the Glock, than a 1911. I'd be willing to bet, you'd see a lot more unintended discharges with condition 1 1911's in the hands of the nations police forces, than you do with Glocks.

Regardless what the gun is, if you arent properly trained, assuming youre even trainable at all (its not just your basic lay people, Ive seen some pretty scary "trained" cops and military people with guns), its not going to matter what you have. Add to that, being cheap, and buying one holster, for all your handguns, and the race is on.

shortwave
April 3, 2011, 09:47 AM
Yes, its obvious the holster was badly worn/creased and should have not been in use.
It's also obvious that if it were to have been a style of pistol with an external safety, this probably wouldn't have happened since the safety would have had to not be set and the trigger also pulled.

BGutzman
April 3, 2011, 10:41 AM
Its plain that if this guy had paid the least bit of attention to his gear this wouldn't have happened. Im sure he crammed is pistol in the holster without a second look or though.

Stupid hurts and sometimes kills, its not the guns fault or the holsters the operator was clearly careless in checking his equipment and in verifying that he had placed the gun into the holster correctly.

Rogervzv
April 4, 2011, 10:48 AM
Incidents such as this remind me why I carry a 1911. I have two mechanical safety devices, either of which would have prevented this from occurring.

Absolutely right. Those Glocks without safetys do not seem safe to me. Stuff happens. The Army and Colt knew what they were doing when they designed the safety system on the 1911. A slide safety at a minimum.

markj
April 4, 2011, 03:38 PM
Could easily have happened to a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, which isnt all that uncommon.

Have to squeze the handle on mine it has 2 safeties.

Did he get a new holster? Anyone owns glocks recommend a good one for this person?

AK103K
April 4, 2011, 05:41 PM
A slide safety at a minimum.
Can you explain?

Have to squeze the handle on mine it has 2 safeties.
Gripping the gun disengages the grip safety.

Now youre down to one.

Pushing the gun into the holster takes the grip safety out of it, unless you do something out of the norm.

Anyone owns glocks recommend a good one for this person?
I would recommend that anyone not use that holster. This isnt a "Glock" issue, its a holster issue.

Madball6
April 4, 2011, 11:23 PM
I find it annoying that someone will buy a gun for conceal carry and then cheap out on a holster. Sure i could buy a $700 gun and a $16 holster. But i'd rather buy a $656 gun and a $60 holster. I mean its a very important part of your conceal carry combination, so it should be quality make and generally if you spend in the $60-80 range for a holster your going to get quality/comfort/long life out of it. Im a huge crossbreed fan, and while your not gonna find a 20 dollar holster from them, you know when you get a holster from them its going to last and its going to be comfortable. Not to mention great retention and its going to fit your gun like a glove.

markj
April 5, 2011, 02:23 PM
Pushing the gun into the holster takes the grip safety out of it, unless you do something out of the norm.

Dont have to push it down after it is in mine and the retention that goes over the gun is snapped, it dont ride free and move around.

I would recommend that anyone not use that holster. This isnt a "Glock" issue, its a holster issue.

Didnt say it was a glock issue, I asked if anyone recommended qa holster for his glock, the one I use wont work for him and I dont have any glocks but if I did I would get a holster made for that gun. Own a glock? ok with me, I dont have any plastic fantastics in my safe I prefer all metal. it is just me it dont mean they are inferior or unable to do the job. Just not my pref.

Heck you even said tha same thing:

Your best bet is to get a holster made and fitted for the gun


chill pill in order

Tom Servo
April 5, 2011, 03:15 PM
I find it annoying that someone will buy a gun for conceal carry and then cheap out on a holster.
I see it every day. Holster, belt, and ammunition are essential parts of the setup. If any of those elements is lacking, the whole setup is suspect.

So, when I hear someone saying they want to carry a gun, but they "don't want to spend a lot of money" on ammunition or the holster, it makes me worry.

Furthermore, as others have mentioned, it is the responsibility of the owner to verify that all those elements are in good working order on a regular basis.

sirsloop
April 5, 2011, 05:19 PM
lessons learned... carry a pistol that has a mechanical safety, preferably two like a 1911 :rolleyes:

I know tons of people carry "safe action" pistols like Glock's but this isnt the first time I've heard of them going off without direct intervention of mr finger or mr brain dead handling.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 5, 2011, 07:34 PM
Want to reference such incidents specifically? What else has pulled the trigger?

9mm
April 5, 2011, 08:52 PM
It's his holster, the gun can slip up, then a finger gets in there or a object and discharge, Glad hes ok.

sirsloop
April 5, 2011, 10:47 PM
Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death. While looking for that article (which I cannot find) I did come across this one...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/morris_county_cop_accidentally.html

I cannot say "sweatpants" are a great carry method for a Glock, but this one is on record as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress Mr. Finger was the ultimate cause of this one... well and a retarded carry method.

Its just not a forgiving design. Granted, you cannot treat a weapon with a safety on as "safe", but at least the damn thing won't go off if you get a little crease in your holster one day. In the case of a 1911, you would have to first disengage the thumb safety, then press the grip safety, then have something moving the trigger. Its just a lot less probable of happening. Lets say some day you get hung up accidentally while holstering. With a Glock if you get hung on the trigger the thing will go off. With somthing with a mechanical safety, you would have to forget/not engage it, or have a mechanical failure, AND make the mistake while holstering. We're only human after all.... a topic i'm sure that's been been to death many times over.

Ehh... Glocks trigger safety. Why would they put a safety on the trigger? Makes no sense! If you get hung on the trigger you want to safety to NOT be on the trigger! They say advantage, I say liability.

BlueTrain
April 6, 2011, 05:46 AM
I think the idea of the safety in the face of the trigger was to make the gun "drop safe," if you follow me. That's the same reason Colt put the firing pin safety in their guns. True, it makes it harder to take out the firing pin (already hard enough before) and it adds another moving part but it isn't a bad idea to have a gun that won't go off if you drop it. But that's the only reason.

Glock could have made the pistol a double-action-only to begin with but I suppose they had their reasons. DAO automatic pistols have been around since before my father was born but apparently a lot of people either don't see the point or simply don't like them. Come to think of it, there were double action revolvers (pepperboxes) before the Civil War.

Single action revolvers, which have been around for a very long time, were apparently quite accident prone, especially during the days of fast draw.

shortwave
April 6, 2011, 05:47 AM
Why would you put the safety on the trigger?... They say advantage,I say liability.

100 percent agree sirsloop.

Don't know for sure but I'd also think that it was cheaper, production wise, for Glock to put (what they refer to a safety) on the trigger rather than design a true external lever type(real) safety.

AK103K
April 6, 2011, 06:43 AM
Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death. While looking for that article (which I cannot find) I did come across this one...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...identally.html

I cannot say "sweatpants" are a great carry method for a Glock, but this one is on record as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress Mr. Finger was the ultimate cause of this one... well and a retarded carry method.

Anything mis, or improperly handled is prone to discharge. The gun has nothing to do with it.

In Burress's case, the gun worked exactly as it was designed, the trigger was pulled. In his case, like the one here in the original post, was purely user error.

A Glock slipped in the waistband isnt the big bad bogeyman many will tell you either, if you use a little common sense. As a test, Ive been carrying a second, unloaded Glock in mine, as well as pockets, and even picked up off the table by the trigger, basically doing everything Ive been told I cant, for over a year now. Been doing it pretty much every minute Im home, doing everything I normally do around the place, and so far, Ive yet to find one with the trigger dropped. That gun is continually drawn, and "reholstered" too, and not in any dainty fashion.

It seems to me, most of the "unsafe" stuff thrown around on the web, is just rehashed and repeated BS passed on by those who dont have a clue.

In the case of a 1911, you would have to first disengage the thumb safety, then press the grip safety, then have something moving the trigger. Its just a lot less probable of happening.
Youre making the assumption that your guns safeties are engaged and operable. Many times they arent.

Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

Ive also owned a few 1911's that had inoperable grip safeties, right out of the box, as well as over time. If you dont constantly check youre so called "safe" gun, it may well not be.

Have you ever reholstered your gun under stress or with distractions? Can you guarantee youll set that thumb safety every time?

Which gun would be scarier to you if it were being reholstered as above, and the safety was off?


Ehh... Glocks trigger safety. Why would they put a safety on the trigger? Makes no sense! If you get hung on the trigger you want to safety to NOT be on the trigger! They say advantage, I say liability.
The trigger safety on the Glock does keep the trigger from dropping, unless its directly pulled, something a 1911's (and others) trigger doesnt. Just like anything else, Glocks dont go off by themselves.

Ive seen plenty of guns go off unintended, and usually with surprised looks on the faces of those shooting them. Most of them have been on 1911's, because they werent expecting the "light" triggers the guns carried.

I almost always get unexpected "doubles'' when I shoot my buddys Nighthawks, that have a very light triggers, and I still shoot 1911's (with more reasonable triggers) on a regular basis.

If anything trigger related is a "liability", then these way to light 1911 triggers are way scarier than the one on a Glock.


Don't know for sure......
Is that sorta like, "I heard"? :rolleyes:

Other than a known malfunction, the "liability" lies with the guns owner.

sirsloop
April 6, 2011, 07:50 AM
With something with a mechanical safety, you would have to forget/not engage it, or have a mechanical failure, AND make the mistake while holstering. We're only human after all

Ifs its so great, then whats preventing AD on a Glock when you have a holster failure that pushes directly on the trigger? You can be as careful and well trained as you want... a long hot sweaty road trip without AC in your car could be enough to soften and bind that leather right up. Point I was making is at least with a mechanical safety designed pistol (thats not just on the trigger), there has to be a less probable set of circumstances that have to occur. In this specific case (this thread), the person mostly likely would NOT have AD if they were carrying a pistol with a mechanical safety other than a little tiny trigger lever.

BlueTrain
April 6, 2011, 08:12 AM
It certainly sounds like a good case for carrying a Glock chamber empty, instead of relying on the protection of the holster. I know, I've read most of the threads about how a pistol with fifteen rounds in the magazine is somehow unloaded but a Glock is one of the easiest automatics to get into action with an empty chamber. If you are going to carry chamber empty, obviously it still has to be easy to use that way and not all pistols are. I don't care for Glocks for other reasons, however, the trigger being one of them, though not because of the way it works but the way it feels. I expect others don't notice a thing. I am the same way about most other guns and double actions are generally perfectly fine.

Old school handgunnery generally including getting your finger inside the trigger guard right away as part of the draw and I suspect that's a bad idea with a Glock, although any other DA auto or revolver will tolerate it pretty well. That's why old fashioned Jordan style holster look the way they did. But that's out of the question with an inside-waistband holster in the first place, so it's a moot point carried that way. But with more contemporary holster designs, it is usually covered with little practical difference in speed, unless you're an exceptionally fast draw, which I am not.

And while we're talking about Glocks and similiar things, one could be forgiven for thinking that anyone who would go for a Glock in the first place wouldn't mind having a plastic holster to go along with it.

sirsloop
April 6, 2011, 08:34 AM
I draw my 686 the same way I draw my autos... finger outta the trigger guard. Revolvers are also capable of going off in this fashion, but it would be much much more difficult to pull off between the heavy trigger pull, the friction against the cylinder rotating, and the resistance from the strap under your hammer would provide.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 6, 2011, 09:00 AM
OH, yawn - don't carry a Glock. Like I thought - a vague accident, blah, blah.

Jimmy10mm
April 6, 2011, 09:03 AM
The easy DA trigger pull on a Glock and on my Kahrs are two edged swords. Nice shooting them but we've got to be careful. When I got my G-23 second hand from a friend he had a 3 1/2 pound disconnect in it. I had it changed back to the standard 5 pound or whatever it is. My Kahr MK40 and P380 have smooth triggers. Not hair or light triggers but I too keep my finger out when I draw.

I remember seeing a youtube video of a Swat team guy giving a demonstration in front of a classroom full of kids. He shot himself in the leg with his Glock either drawing or maybe it was reholstering. Even expert gun handlers can have a miscue when the finger is in there. Sorry the OP had the mishap but glad he is alright and that this thread was started. I'll be more careful than I have been and that is very careful. :)

sirsloop
April 6, 2011, 09:16 AM
The DEA agent that shot himself was being an idiot, playing with the gun. After saying he was the only one qualified to handle it, he racked the slide back, held it up and pronounced it was "an unloaded gun", then racked the slide forward while apparently there was a mag in there (and chambered a round), then pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger. After things calmed down he tried to grab another unloaded gun that looked like an AR15 :D

Glenn Bartley
April 6, 2011, 09:16 AM
Ifs its so great, then whats preventing AD on a Glock when you have a holster failure that pushes directly on the trigger? You can be as careful and well trained as you want... a long hot sweaty road trip without AC in your car could be enough to soften and bind that leather right up.

To have happen what you just described is either due to fantasy or due to the worst piece of junk holster imaginable or due to it being overly worn out or having been tampered with purposefully. The failure in this instance, I think, was not with the pistol but was with the person and possibly the holster manufacturer. I have worn leather holsters for years and never had that happen once even with fairly poor quality holsters. That includes 4 years of wearing leather holsters while I was in the Border Patrol in Calexico, CA, weeks of work in Florida on marine patrol with a wet holster at almost all times, hiking in the mountains of AZ with a holster soaking wet from sweat repeatedly, and years of hot, humid, summers in NYC with sweat penetrating my holster. So, don't for a moment try to convince me that a few hours in a car without AC and with sweat all over the holster will cause that to happen with even just a fair quality holster when such has never even come close with the many holsters I have worn in much worse conditions, nor has ever been reported to me during the 14 years I was a firearms instructor for my agency. I think it just will not happen unless, in my opinion, the holster is worn out beyond use, or there is a defect, or the holster is absolute junk, or it purposefully is tampered with to cause the condition. In any of those cases the holster wearer or any other person who effected the holster's condition would be at fault as far as I can see. The person wearing it would also be at fault simply for continued use of it, in that condition, even if the person wearing it did not cause the damage.

Would pistol design have anything to do with the reported event happening. If it happened as described, yes it would but through no fault of the pistol design. The fault was due to, in my opinion, what I think amounts to a less than reasonably careful person wearing a faulty piece of leather gear and then not holstering the pistol into it properly. I think, there is no way that said holster should have come to that condition without it having been noticed, by a reasonably attentive person, from what I can tell. To me it appears to be long term damage or a major defect or tampering that should have been obvious to the holster user had he examined and cared for his leather properly.

All the best,
Glenn B

LouCap
April 6, 2011, 09:24 AM
I've got to agree with Glen here. The weapon (or firearm if you prefer) was either not seated properly in the holster, or was jammed into a holster not made for that gun. The holster should cover the entire trigger guard, but somehow this managed to work it's way into the front of it? True, the holster looks well worn, but there seems to be an issue with fit or retention. The gun did what it was designed to do.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

Glenn Bartley
April 6, 2011, 09:26 AM
The thing is, I'm not about to bash the person so hard over the head about the things he has told us about. If I was him, I'd never make another post here about stupid things he's done. I've done my share of stupid things (only a few involving firearms or something dangerous) and I'd rather not subject myself to the kind of responses that could only be expected. Did the person, who was involved in the actual incident, create this thread. It sure did not read like that to me. The person who was shot wrote an anonymous article and had it published on another site if I understand correctly. I kind of admire the person at least for his having done that, publishing his experience as a sort of warning to others.

All the best,
GB

markj
April 6, 2011, 11:13 AM
NDs can happen with any firearm thats for sure.

I dont see it as a glock is a killer type thing. Anyone buys any gun needs to read the manual and see what is required to handle it safely. And have a good holster. :) in this case.


Instructor had a holster went inside the waistband using clips to hold it in place, couldnt even tell he had it on. Now I forgot the name.....crossbreed? maybe

BGutzman
April 6, 2011, 11:48 AM
Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death.

Probably realized what he was carrying and in a fit decided to end it all... ;)

Jimmy10mm
April 6, 2011, 12:17 PM
I was a union ironworker in my younger days, mostly doing structural steel erection. When I was an apprentice I was told to keep your eyes open for potentially unsafe situations or actions. The journeyman who told me this said,"Be vigilant, if we knew an accident was going to happen we would correct the circumstances beforehand and not allow it to occur."

Reminds me of a fellow 40 years ago. He was riding in the bed of a pickup with some other hunters. They got to their destination and hopped out of the bed. He jumped out with a loaded double barreled shotgun in one hand. The butt of the shotgun hit the step bumper hard enough to trip the sear and the fellow was killed by the accidental discharge. Anyone might have done the same thing without even thinking that it could be unsafe. Be careful out there guys and gals.

AK103K
April 6, 2011, 04:27 PM
Probably realized what he was carrying and in a fit decided to end it all...
Naaaa, he just finally realized he was in NJ, and saw his life was hopeless. Of course, since a Glock was in the neighborhood, its the Glocks fault. :rolleyes:

Since were talking about PRNJ, how about all those holster/gun malfunctions the NJSP had when they first switched to the P7's back in the 80's? The P7 is about the safest gun out there, and yet....... :)

AK103K
April 6, 2011, 07:10 PM
Theres a very simple solution there, dont carry one.

If youre not comfortable with it, then you probably wont be much good with it, at least in a realistic way.

As far as self inflicted stats, the only way to know there, is do the math with the percentages. Numbers dont lie, but like anything else, they do need to be in context.

shortwave
April 7, 2011, 10:07 AM
shortwave wrote:

Don't know for sure.....

AK103K responded:

Is that sorta like,"I heard"? :rolleyes:

No, just an educated guess that it would be less expensive to apply a "so called trigger safety" to a pistol rather than re-making all your production machinery or remaking all your pouring molds to accomodate either a slide or frame mounted, real external safety. Which is what Glock would have to do. Pretty much basic economical/business common sense don't you think.:rolleyes:

A different opinion is always welcomed;).

At any rate,IMO, yes the holster in the vid. probably should have not been used(with any pistol) and the fault lies on the guy that shot himself but I don't see how anyone could argue that if there would have been an external safety that was applied, this probably wouldn't have happened as already has been explained in various earlier posts.

BlueTrain
April 7, 2011, 11:45 AM
Ruger re-makes things all the time; why couldn't Glock?

Wildalaska
April 7, 2011, 12:50 PM
Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

Woa woa wee woa, I've never had that happen, and I carry Mexico lots of the time.

Then again, fat rolls act as safety padding.

WildspiffchimeinAlaska ™©2002-2011

mavracer
April 7, 2011, 01:22 PM
In Burress's case, the gun worked exactly as it was designed, the trigger was pulled. In his case, like the one here in the original post, was purely user error.

A Glock slipped in the waistband isnt the big bad bogeyman many will tell you either, if you use a little common sense. As a test, Ive been carrying a second, unloaded Glock in mine, as well as pockets, and even picked up off the table by the trigger, basically doing everything Ive been told I cant, for over a year now. Been doing it pretty much every minute Im home, doing everything I normally do around the place, and so far, Ive yet to find one with the trigger dropped. That gun is continually drawn, and "reholstered" too, and not in any dainty fashion.

Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

I've carried a 1911 off and on for 20 years, holsters with straps and without. I check the safety all the time and have never found it to be off safe.
so does it make you inability to keep your safety engaged user error or the fault of the machine.:rolleyes:

shortwave
April 7, 2011, 01:23 PM
Woa woa wee woa, never had that happen...

Me either and I've cc'd a 1911 for 30+ yrs. If at the end of every day, I found my safety off, I think I'd find a different mode of carry.

BGutzman
April 7, 2011, 02:32 PM
Im sure it was something in the coolaid... :eek:

AK103K
April 7, 2011, 02:34 PM
I've carried a 1911 off and on for 20 years, holsters with straps and without. I check the safety all the time and have never found it to be off safe.
so does it make you inability to keep your safety engaged user error or the fault of the machine.

Me either and I've cc'd a 1911 for 30+ yrs. If at the end of every day, I found my safety off, I think I'd find a different mode of carry.
What for you boys do for a living, and how active are you while wearing your gun? Are you a desk or car jockey, living in a controlled environment, or do you "work" for a living?

Some of us are a lot more active than others and live in a very differrent world. I dont sit in an office or ride around in a car. My day is usually pretty active, outdoors, all day, in all weather, and no matter what holster Ive used, I often found the safety on my 1911's off at some point during the day. Kydex (Blade Tech IWB) with a sweat shield always worked best, and what I used for the last ten years or so of carrying a 1911, but even then, Id still find it off.

Now my buddy, who carries when it suits him (and hes carried 30+ years too), still has the original leather holster he got with the gun, and both look new. He says his safety never comes off too, but then again, he doesnt do anything but sit behind a desk, is about 60 pounds overweight, and sweats like a pig from the air to the car and then from the car to the house. Come to think of it, he looks a lot like the boy in the first post with the hole in his butt. :)


These days, I carry a Glock same way as this. (Sorry, I dont have a Dunlop, so maybe thats the problem, eh? :))

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f0086198400000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The old Commander here was at the end of its career here, and both it and the holster were together just over 10 years at that point. I still have both, and both, though well worn, are still very serviceable. Before that Blade Tech holster though, I used to go through two good leather holsters a year, and I know what a wet leather holster is like and why you dont want one. The one in the link in the first post, aint even damp. ;)

AK103K
April 7, 2011, 02:45 PM
Im sure it was something in the coolaid...
Which coolaide? :rolleyes:

"Hand wringing" lemon, or "Aint Skeerd" cherry? ;)


Maybe if some who are such ardent 1911 fans were to actually spend some time with a Glock, they'd know that so much of the BS that gets passed around, is just that BS. The again, it just reinforces the lack of knowledge on the part of those who choose to "baffle'em".

This is just like the AR vs AK thing. Maybe if the drinkers on both sides were to mix things up a little, they'd have a whole different outlook on things.

Some of us understand that its not the gun thats the problem in most of these cases. If you cant shoot it, or cant operate it, thats not the guns fault. Thats just a short coming on the weakest link in the equation.

BGutzman
April 7, 2011, 03:16 PM
The bottom line for me is you can sing the praise of the Glock tell the cows come home and I would never even consider carrying it the places I have been for the military nor the places I may go in the future for myself. Claim perfection all you like but a simple google and looking around various forums shows pretty quickly that they have problems just like any other gun.

The coolade makes em grumpy too... :)

AK103K
April 7, 2011, 03:26 PM
I couldnt care less what you carry or use. But dont try to tell me they are "bad", only because "you" dont like them. Thats simply your opinion.

Ive actually used both (as well as a few others), and know whats what with them. Koolaide has nothing to do with it. Its purely about what works. These days for me, it just happens to be a Glock. The only reason its no longer SIG or HK, is because they priced themselves out of my market. 1911's, well, if it aint a Colt, whats the point?

If you look at any of them critically, youre going to find that they all have had their issues. As I said earlier, the math only adds up if you take everything in context. Internet posts based on opinion, dont count.

BGutzman
April 7, 2011, 03:37 PM
When Glock Gets to be 100 and the same basic model is still in production and use, well then you will have me over a barrel, until then not so much.

I guess your opinion has as much value as mine, so were stuck and might as well move on....

By the way I did like your MK II you posted....

AK103K
April 7, 2011, 03:54 PM
Hey, what ever floats your boat. As long as they work and work for you. This whole thing here was a holster issue that everyone seems to want to turn into a gun issue, thats all.

Yea, the old MKII is pretty much my favorite, and that one and I spent a lot of time together. You can blame Mike Echanis for my addiction to them. I was just way to impressionable back then and never got over it. :)

For that type of knife, theyre pretty hard to beat. To bad they dont make them like they once did. The new ones flat out suck, and I told them so when I got one. They didnt seem to mind either. :(

Oh well, I got mine! (and a spare) :D

TailGator
April 7, 2011, 03:55 PM
The discussion about Glock retooling to add a thumb safety presupposes both that Glock wants to add a safety and that their customers demand it. Without meaning to offend any individuals who have posted, I don't see how you can participate in handgun forums for any length of time and not realize that there is a significant number of buyers who want the simplicity of a handgun without a thumb safety, or that an enormous number people purchase, use, and carry them on a regular basis with sufficient attention to handling, including holster selection and use, to avoid untoward incidents.

Don't you think the Brady Bunch would love us to help them mandate thumb safeties? What other "safeties" do you think would be mandated next?

markj
April 7, 2011, 03:56 PM
some who are such ardent 1911 fans were to actually spend some time with a Glock

Had one for 2 years, went back to my 1911. just isnt for me, not gonna bash it, just isnt for me same as a XD just dont fit right nor feel right to me.

I also sold off them taurus semis I had awful long travel on the trigger, didnt feel right went to a high power for the 9mm or went back to it Ishould say.

Glocks, like a 1973 Volkswagon beetle are not for everyone :)

AK103K
April 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
See that! I had a 1973 VW! Paid $2800 for it brand new too. :D

BGutzman
April 7, 2011, 04:03 PM
I am not blaming the gun for this incident... External safety's may have helped but the bottom line is the user didn't holster the gun correctly and didn't check himself.

For any gun to be safe it has to be handled in a safe manner and the photo makes it clear (or at least it is to me) that this gun wasnt holstered safely, this never should have happened..

Soft leather or weapon type is an excuse for user error..... in this specific case...

Capt Charlie
April 7, 2011, 04:53 PM
This whole thing here was a holster issue that everyone seems to want to turn into a gun issue, thats all.

Yep, that happens when a thread hits over 100 posts. We've pretty much run out of new things to say about the OP's problem, and the thread's wandered around like a drunken ballerina :D.

Besides, I think the OP's been thrashed soundly enough ;).

Closed.