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Overhill
March 28, 2011, 08:49 AM
http://beta.app.com/article/BZ/20110328/NEWS06/103280323/1401/NEWS05
We are trained to lay down our firearms whenever police arrive and follow their orders while we explain the stiuation, This could catch you off guard very easilly. You could easilly think is was real cops who targeted the wrong house. how do we prepare for this?

Double Naught Spy
March 28, 2011, 09:05 AM
This comes up from time to time. With that said, I am not trained to lay down my gun ever. I have never had surrender training.

Our local street cops and deputies don't do dynamic entries, generally speaking. They get their SWAT guys to do it. If folks are doing a dynamic entry and aren't SWAT, then they likely aren't cops, regardless of what they say. They won't be coming with just 2 guys either. I realize that this isn't a perfect criterion, but then again, there is no reason for cops to be coming into my home either.

Onward Allusion
March 28, 2011, 10:41 AM
This is why a door brace is an essential item for every outside facing door in one's home.

http://www.amazon.com/Mace-80115-MACE-Jammer-Brace/dp/B0009V2LU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301326721&sr=8-1

It will buy you the extra seconds needed to get level headed and draw. This is also why it is really important to carry 24x7. It doesn't have to be a cannon. Even a little 22LR on your person will allow you to fire a couple of shots to let you get to the heavy iron.

Don P
March 28, 2011, 11:29 AM
Unless you are living where you have Andy and Barney for police protection I would have to agree with Double Naught Spy's assessment.

Double Naught Spy
March 28, 2011, 11:39 AM
This is why a door brace is an essential item for every outside facing door in one's home.

There are a couple of problems with it. It only works for doors that open inwards and does nothing for windows.

Vanya
March 28, 2011, 12:14 PM
Home invasion by cops?
I presume you mean, "Home invasion by armed criminals pretending to be cops..." and not, "Forced entry by police officers with criminal intent..." The latter is even more improbable than the former, and is something I'm just not gonna worry about.

This comes up from time to time way too often.
There, fixed it for you... :)

For a long discussion of this topic, this very month, see this thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442950).

:rolleyes:

Onward Allusion
March 28, 2011, 01:09 PM
There are a couple of problems with it. It only works for doors that open inwards and does nothing for windows.

Absolutely. However, doors are the key entry points. Windows should be locked. Yes, they can be broken and a BG climbs through, but it makes a racket and it takes a little longer to climb into a window. Being armed 24x7 or at least during all waking hours is a good preventative.

There are a host of other preventative measures, but this isn't the thread for it. You made a good point that police entries are generally made by SWAT. A good clue is when the "police" is wearing hoodies.

Edward429451
March 28, 2011, 03:34 PM
Quit watching the training videos which tell you to surrender. (COPS, MOST SHOCKING, police chases, etc..)

ATW525
March 28, 2011, 04:02 PM
how do we prepare for this?

If you don't sell drugs then it's highly unlikely that fake cops (or real ones, for that matter) will be kicking down your door to get your stash.

AK103K
March 28, 2011, 04:06 PM
If you don't sell drugs then it's highly unlikely that fake cops (or real ones, for that matter) will be kicking down your door to get your stash.
There ya go. :)

Oh, wait, the real address was to your neighbors house, nevermind. :D

Skadoosh
March 28, 2011, 04:13 PM
Here's a wrinkle: how about the police executing a no-notice on the wrong home...specifically, YOUR home .... based on faulty intel?

Usertag
March 28, 2011, 04:15 PM
I was always told to make sure the warrant is signed. Because cops will try to bust in your house, and show you a unsigned warrant.

aarondhgraham
March 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
Here's a wrinkle: how about the police executing a no-notice on the wrong home...specifically, YOUR home .... based on faulty intel?

So how do you think those heavily armed cops are going to react when you (that's a generic you) starts firing at them?

My friend, there ain't no way to prepare for that type of random event,,,
But I'm fairly certain that the last thing I am going to do is start blasting away.

I have my bedroom pistol in a rail holster,,,
When they make it to my bedroom all they will find is,,,
A fat middle-aged man cowering against the wall under his covers,,,
With a 16 round magazine inserted into a CZ-75B ready to shoot through the sheets.

If they are cops I will drop the pistol on the mattress and surrender,,,
If they are bad guys I'll probably go out in a big blaze of glory,,,
But the point is I ain't shooting until I know who they are.

The last thing I want to do (as a man who wants to survive) is shoot at cops,,,
Them boys will kill you in a heartbeat and get away with it as well.

Aarond

5whiskey
March 28, 2011, 05:00 PM
Our local street cops and deputies don't do dynamic entries, generally speaking. They get their SWAT guys to do it. If folks are doing a dynamic entry and aren't SWAT, then they likely aren't cops, regardless of what they say. They won't be coming with just 2 guys either. I realize that this isn't a perfect criterion, but then again, there is no reason for cops to be coming into my home either.

This is not always the case. I work on a smaller department, but certainly not Mayberry sized. We have around 50 sworn personel, but we hardly ever do dynamic entries with our entry team unless it's part of a pre-planned raid. If I happen to see Jo-blow with 8 felony warrants on him enter a house (which at times would even give PC for warrantless entry, depending), we're not going to call in the entry team to come take it down. The officers on the squad working will go in. Our entry or SWAT team is a volunteer team that performs that function on top of their normal duties. Some of them are on patrol, some are investigators, and other are Narcotics. It would take several hours to gather that crowd in. If it were a hostage situation, then yes. Serving a spur of the moment search or arrest warrant, no.

Just clarifying that it's probably a good idea to listen to the ordinary, plain janed, uniformed police unless you determine they are posers. Don't pay as much attention to the uniform as their actions. If the door of your house has been kicked in and people are in your house, but they've not announced themselves as Police, then you've probably got serious problems.

HorseSoldier
March 28, 2011, 05:34 PM
+1 what 5Whiskey said. Exigent circumstances can and do happen, though that's not that common and most places that kind of response is the realm of uniformed patrol officers, not detectives or other folks in plain clothes.

If you don't sell drugs then it's highly unlikely that fake cops (or real ones, for that matter) will be kicking down your door to get your stash.

+1. Most home invasions are targeted and drug related. The article the OP quoted sounds sort of suspicious to me -- tortured by the invaders to find out where their "stuff" was, $4000 in cash on hand, all three working what sound like pretty menial jobs. Perhaps they're immigrants who don't use banks, perhaps they have a cash intensive secondary source of income. Either way, it seems likely they were targeted by people who knew enough about them to know they had portable wealth on hand (+/- drugs as well perhaps).

Which suggests some broader ideas on how not to be the victim of this sort of thing beyond just not working in the drug trade. There was another thread recently about the Florida beauty queen who shot a home invasion robber -- good on her for the shooting, but she and her fiance pretty much painted a huge target on themselves.


They live in a big house in a wealthy neighborhood, kind of hard to fault them for that, but . . .
She answers a knock at the front door at 3 AM?
She sports a $60K engagement ring, apparently all the time?
They pay their pizza delivery guy with $100 bills?


All of which doesn't just say "I am wealthy" but "I have cash and serious jewelry on hand in my residence." The former doesn't really jazz up home invasion robbers, I wouldn't think -- you're not likely to commit go to jail forever level felonies on a fishing expedition that might pay off. The latter, apparently, does attract the attention of such folks.

So people should ask themselves what can the pizza delivery guy tell about you when you come to the door to pay? If you've got teenage kids -- what do their friends know about what you have and where you keep it? Does anyone else have routine access to the inside of your house for legitimate reasons who might see things that might attract burglars or robbers? (Guns accessible outside a safe? Prescription narcotics or other pharmaceuticals? Evidence of other valuables?)

Oh, wait, the real address was to your neighbors house, nevermind.

Realistically, this is a remote issue in any case, but with real deal criminals I think it is incredibly remote -- if only because the guys doing the close-in recce on the target house are probably part of the group doing the actual hit. With law enforcement, if the department is big enough, you get that risk that vice/narcotics/whoever developed the info about the target house and then unrelated SWAT types do the raid -- or whatever other variation of that story plays out.

It's a tough scene anyway you slice it though -- and lots of room for very bad decisions to be made in a few split seconds on both sides. Thankfully it happens very rarely, and when it does the people doing the raid are almost always unmistakably police.

2cooltoolz
March 28, 2011, 05:37 PM
This is why a door brace is an essential item for every outside facing door in one's home.

There are a couple of problems with it. It only works for doors that open inwards and does nothing for windows.


I have them on all my doors to the exterior. And screw type locks on every window (and some home-made battering rams to knock the windows out, in case of fire). And dogs. And shrubbery. They don't solve every problem, but every little obstacle helps. If I can't stop 'em, I'll slow 'em down and make 'em noisy, while I go hide under the covers with aarondgraham. :D

The Real Wyatt
March 28, 2011, 05:44 PM
Here's a wrinkle: how about the police executing a no-notice on the wrong home...specifically, YOUR home .... based on faulty intel?

------------------

It happens far too often ...
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

AK103K
March 28, 2011, 06:03 PM
Realistically, this is a remote issue in any case, but with real deal criminals I think it is incredibly remote
Actually, I think it could/would be more likely. We used to live on a dead end road where the former residents of the last house on the road were apparently selling drugs at a pretty good clip (and we all just thought they were popular :) ).They moved/left, somebody new moved in, and for a couple of months, they were constantly running people off wanting to buy drugs.

The police end of it happening, well, you dont hear it "all" the time, but you hear it enough to know whats being referred to without to much surprise.

A quick call to 911 (if you have it) should settle things pretty quick, if theres time.

A good reason to have an early warning system either way.

HorseSoldier
March 28, 2011, 06:09 PM
One thing you can do in circumstances where you have people representing themselves as police pounding on your door or forcing their way in is to call 911, tell them you think you might be the victim of a home invasion robbery, leave the line open and comply with the officers or maybe officers demands.

If it is a legitimate raid, the open line to 911 would create at least a limited additional recording of what occurred above and beyond whatever audio the officers on scene are running. That might be beneficial if it's a case of mistaken addresses or whatever.

If it's not a legitimate raid you'll get a police response. The one vaguely similar call I was on our dispatchers had patrol officers en route as soon as they got a report of something that might be law enforcement activity or maybe not, while they double checked with our cool kids (drug unit, gang unit, etc) and called federal agencies, other local LE agencies, etc., to make sure there wasn't some sort of miscommunication.

So at least in that one case, reaction time wasn't even altered from what it normally would be.

sirsloop
March 28, 2011, 06:39 PM
Police accidentally doing a no-knock raid on your house is a terrible situation to be in. For one you probably aren't expecting police to be busting down your door. At least if you are dealin dope you can expect the police bust in. Two you won't know what the hell is going on and will probably be diving for the closest firearm. Three you won't know its the real police, unless you really believe someone kicking in your door yelling "police". They don't usually kick in innocent peoples doors.

The hot setup is to have your exterior doors fortified, and potentially your bedroom door fortified and locked while you sleep. Cops gotta tear down the outside door which will wake you, then they gotta tear down the bedroom door which will take much longer. Hopefully by then you realize what the hell is going on, but still do you surrender?

Start screaming that you have a firearm and to back the hell off! Chances are if they start hammering on a bedroom door, can't get it open cause the damn thing is solid has a deadbolt and a metal frame, then are hearing someone screaming about loaded guns they will stop.

Innocent people have shot police during erroneous no-knock raids, then later been convicted with their murders. Police have shot and killed innocent people during erroneous no knock raids. It happens... wrong address. "oops!"

ZeSpectre
March 28, 2011, 07:31 PM
Law enforcement in my area won't do a dynamic entry but they are very good at waiting for the suspect(s) to leave the residence and then handling them.

TUNNUG
March 28, 2011, 09:22 PM
What about this situation,

Happened to a co-worker/friend.

He's working off a cold and had taken some over the counter medicine that helped him sleep, after midnight he hears pounding on his bedroom door (door's locked) and sees lights shining through the gap at the bottom, he lives alone and no one should have been in his house.

In his stupor he walks to the door not fully comprehending what's going on and he hears "Police, Open the door", he opens the door and standing in his hallway with weapons drawn and lights on him are three cops, he's standing there in his underwear when they make him go prone and cuff him, when they cleared the house and found out he's the owner they asked him why did he call 911 and hung up? He tells them he didn't call.
He finds out that when they called back all they got was the noise of a fax line, he tells them the only land line to the house is the fax and he uses his cell phone for all other calls.

He told me that in his condition he completely forgot about his gun on the bedside and thinks that they would have shot him if he'd opened the bedroom door with a gun in his hand.

The police said they knocked on the front door and when they didn't get a response they walked around the house and forced the back door open to gain entry.

He decided not to pursue the actions of the police that night, he felt lucky enough not to have been shot.

TXAZ
March 28, 2011, 11:04 PM
We've worked with SWAT, and one of their commanders offered the following about real vs. fake cops crashing your front door. This is something that has happened in Arizona lately. (either way, real cop or not, you have to decide what are the consequences if you 'chose wrong' with how you're going to respond)

In many jurisdictions, warrants can't be served late at night, which can be a big hint if they show up at 3 AM.
Real cops should have matching gear that looks high quality (vs. a $5 POLICE T-shirt) and a cheesy .25 cal saturday night special.
He noted he was not aware of any instances where real US cops carried AK-47's, a weapon some fake cops have used.
The SWAT guys will be virtually identically dressed with Kevlar helmets and $5K Motorola radios. Real cops serving a warrant will likely have sporadic traffic on their radio.
Additionally, real cops typically arrive in real cop cars, either themselves, or just in front of a traffic cop in a cruiser to dissuade onlookers from getting too close.
For non-high risk warrants that don't require the full SWAT team, you might have 2 or 3 SWAT guys serving it in something short of full battle gear.
Warrant servers have on occasion allowed the subject, often barricaded, to call 911 to verify they were real, generally in drug / kidnapping situations.

The challenge / potential downside is that unless you're really sure, I'd be very careful trying to kinetically challenge the intruders on very short notice. I would expect most TFL'ers could shoot better than the average street cop and certainly the average thug, but I expect few could out shoot the SWAT guys in a tactical situation of their choosing. May each of you never have to find out.

DRBoyle
March 29, 2011, 03:55 AM
Some of the things you've listed TXAZ might be be so easy to verify in a dynamic situation. Especially where taking a peek outside might work counter to the idea behind a cautionary glance.


The full tactical SWAT scenario is another moot point for reasons regarding when it's applicable. Few here would voice a concern for violent drug dealers accidentally getting shot when answering their door armed because they failed to realise it was a real police force knocking.

Now this main point might sound like a flame comment but the belief should always be, the police are on the backfoot.

If at times it means sometimes a police officer cannot mirror a citizens right to defend themselves in time (get off a shot despite being drawn) then that should be part of the job.

Yes, that is a very terrible thing to say. It does however stand to reason as reason (and the paper work that follows) distinguishes a vigilante from a police force. As do the greater numbers as the term force implies.
All of that should be part of the job. In turn it should mean that for the officers involved they should receive a greater amount of respect from the public for their service.

The point of this little sanctimonious sermon is simply that some police and the law makers behind them, have conveniently forgotten that. They have also forgotten the countless police officers that haven't forgotten this (some paying the ultimate price).

Getting to the point and it's this: Sometimes an officer might startle someone in their own home who is armed and then suffers an injury or death. That might be a tragedy if the address wasn't the right one, but that should be the risk of the job. That should be the direction events flow in.

As the saying goes citizens shouldn't be afraid of their governments etc. The little addition to that would be citizens should also become grateful for governments.

All imho.

Erik
March 30, 2011, 11:09 PM
Shoot the cops? Great plan of action. Thanks for sharing. Next time be sure to compete the circle by including the expected response to that.

--

As for what to do should the police make a dynamic entry into your home, presumably because they believe they should be doing so, mistaken or not? Remember, we're talking about people that you believe to be the police. There's really no good advice to offer other than to comply at that point.

BigBob3006
March 31, 2011, 12:16 AM
Overhill,

I know the answer to one problem. If you keep a sidearm for defence, it's not worth a dime sitting on top of a closet shelf. I can't give you an answer that might fit you states laws. I'm pretty much confined to a power chair or my recliner. As such any child with a wet noodle could get away with any thing they wanted to. The only thing that would prevent it is my young spirit, my poor sleeping hours and my Colt Combat Commander in a .45 ACP. The one in the spout and seven in an eight magazine that reside in the butt of the grip might offer some punctuation as well. Home invasion is becoming a quickly climbing crime statistic. You ignore that fact at your peril.

I have decided on a course of action for myself.

At the first hint of trouble Mr. Colt comes to hand. If I don't hear someone outside yelling police, I shoot at the first thing through the door. If I do hear the word police, I yell back I have a gun. During this time my wife, Kathy, has been calling 911. When they answer we tell them what is happening and ask if the people at the door are police and if not send help, if they are police I notify those outside that they have been vouched for, and to come on in, and place the Colt on the floor. This may not be the best way to handle the problem, but it is the best that I can come up with

As I said this may or may not work by your law. I'm not 100% sure it will work by New Mexico law, but it's the best I can think of where everyone goes home at night.

blakdawg
March 31, 2011, 12:31 AM
I was always told to make sure the warrant is signed. Because cops will try to bust in your house, and show you a unsigned warrant.

If your residence is the target of a search/arrest warrant, you don't get a chance to inspect the paperwork and decide whether or not it meets your standards and you want to cooperate.

You'll be handcuffed and sitting or lying down while they do what they're going to do and afterwards if you think it wasn't right you can file a complaint/civil rights suit/motion to suppress.

DRBoyle
March 31, 2011, 04:15 AM
Wondering if Erik's response is directed at mine? Or was the order the message contribution appeared of no significance. If it isn't, then obviously ignore the following.

In case it was was, simply put better to get a shot off at someone you don't believe to be police than (as others here noted) to find out too late it isn't. The part concerning how police need to be reactive should extend to the system behind them. Namely the courts, which means they should investigate as thoroughly as they can as to whether correct procedure was observed. If the police identified themselves correctly etc.

Few videos out there which even show people with weaponary like sports equipment, getting shot. For a couple of those videos it just appears the police didn't take the due care identifying themselves given the condition of the householder. Certainly under the conditions (drowsy householder at a distance to police) the police over-reacted.


Yes, some innocent people might get shot or even die as the police then return fire on a householder thinking they're armed invaders. That should be everyone's personal decision to return fire or not.

Intersting story regarding the L.A riots, when National Guard soldiers fired on a homeowner who thought it was rioters pretending to police. Suffice to say, when an m-60 fires on your house, you know who it is and surrender.

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2011, 07:04 AM
Shoot the cops? Great plan of action. Thanks for sharing. Next time be sure to compete the circle by including the expected response to that.

--

As for what to do should the police make a dynamic entry into your home, presumably because they believe they should be doing so, mistaken or not? Remember, we're talking about people that you believe to be the police. There's really no good advice to offer other than to comply at that point.

No, we are not talking about people I believe to be the police. The talk would be about shooting intruders.

Now if you are going up against the folks like TXAZ describes, it might be a losing proposition either way. If you are going against the OP's setup, that is another story.

Police have been shot during mistaken home invasions and homeowners have been cleared of wrong doing as a result, though nobody is happy.

I would expect most TFL'ers could shoot better than the average street cop and certainly the average thug, but I expect few could out shoot the SWAT guys in a tactical situation of their choosing. May each of you never have to find out.

SWAT may be good shots, but when they screw up, they often screw up on a very grand scale.

Original incorrect report from right after the event...
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/072101/loc_0721010012.shtml

Apparently 369 rounds were fired.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75603
Good shots? Great shots, usually. Here, less than 1% hit human targets and none of the human targets were intentional hits. The barricaded guy was apparently hit while hiding in a closet, totally unseen. One officer killed, one wounded.

So fighting SWAT could result in fighting heavy intentional fire or heavy confused fire. Both would be bad.

m&p45acp10+1
March 31, 2011, 03:28 PM
I have been awakened by my door flying in, and several shotgun barrels in my face literaly. Police task force raided the wrong apartment complex. They were apologetic, and had a city handyman fix my door. It did scare the crap out of me. I had no time to react when they came in. I lived in a small studio apartment of a 4 plex. They did get the suapect they were after in the 4 plex across the street. I was not too happy. My apartment number was on the door.

Yes it does happen. Cops make mistakes about adresses. The thing is they are trying to use speed to keep the element of surprise, and usualy the officer, or informant that the info came from are not with the inital entry team so it is not that difficult in the heat of the moment to force entry into the wrong house, especialy if it is an aparment, duplex, or 4plex.

Wildalaska
March 31, 2011, 03:30 PM
I'd be better off wearing a lightning rod on my head than worrying about stuff like this.

WilddynamicentryindeedAlaska ™©2002-2011

BikerRN
March 31, 2011, 03:43 PM
there is no reason for cops to be coming into my home

Exactly.

I have no reasonable expectation of such happening to me in my home.

Therefore I will respond as if it's a lethal threat, which if it is an actual law enforcement entry in to my home, it will get very bad for me in very short order. In short, I will probably be dead.

As they say, that's life. My family may be able to pick up the pieces and move on, with a nice compensation check, but I will be dead and buried. I only hope that, law enforcement or not, if you attack my home through error, I take a few illegal entrants, or what I presume to be illegal entrants in to my home, with me to the gates of Hell.

Biker

AK103K
March 31, 2011, 06:28 PM
I'd be better off wearing a lightning rod on my head than worrying about stuff like this.
Oh, I dont know..... Ive been watching that Alska State Trooper show on National Geo, and they way they show it, all yall up there in Alaska are just a bunch of drunks wandering around in the wilderness in their unides.

Put your beer down and get some trousers on, your hair is looking like the static electricity is powering up! :D

Wildalaska
April 1, 2011, 02:00 AM
all yall up there in Alaska are just a bunch of drunks wandering around in the wilderness in their unides.

Real men wear thongs in bear country...look at the rest of ya, what do you have, enraged chipmunks and groundhogs:p

WildsirgruntsalotAlaska ™©2002-2011

AK103K
April 1, 2011, 07:31 AM
Hey! Those chipmunks are pretty scary when in a pack! Scarier yet, is being between a woodchuck and his hole when he wants back home. :)

A thong in bear country? Is that a purple "USDA Choice" tattoo on your butt cheek, or is it a real stamp? :)

45Gunner
April 1, 2011, 08:26 AM
About 12 or 15 years ago, my condo was broken into while I was in my home office. I heard some noise and started towards the front door. At first I thought it was maintenance coming to do some work until I saw two guys with guns. Because of circumstances that would take too long to explain here, they probably thought I was not at home and they were surprised as I was. The results of their surprise was a volley of bullets, some of which hit me while I was running down the hallway heading back for my home office. To make a long story short, I played dead while they quickly grabbed valuable art work and some electronics. I was bleeding profusely and struggling to maintain consciousness. When I heard them leave, I found the telephone and called 911. I had the telephone in my hand, made my way to the front door and locked it, hoping the police would arrive before the crooks came back for any more stuff. The dispatcher told me the police were at my front door so I opened it only to be looking down the barrels of six Glocks pointed at me. Not a good night but I'm here to tell the tale. What lessons did I learn. All the doors and windows stay locked with deadbolts engaged at all times. I have a super-duper alarm system installed in my house...I moved out of the condo. I have a four-legged early warning system. I have a gun on me 24/7 except when in the shower and when I sleep, its on the nightstand next to the bed. There is a gun hidden in every room of the house. I was not married at the time of the shooting but I am now. My wife knows never to open the door until we are 100% satisfied that we know who/what is on the other side.

Double Naught Spy
April 1, 2011, 09:40 AM
I'd be better off wearing a lightning rod on my head than worrying about stuff like this.

Given that Alaska has about the least number of lightning strikes of any state in the US despite its grand size, I think I would be comfortable wearing a lighting rod on my head there too instead of worrying about SWAT coming in my door. :D

Then again, I worry more about chickweed infesting my lawn more than I do about SWAT infesting my house.