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garryc
March 27, 2011, 10:56 AM
I live in a small northern Ohio city. To our north east there is a city that has fallen into ruin. To our south east is another well on that path. Gangs are running wild.

In my town there has never been problem. As of late I've been seeing more and more persons wearing gang style clothing. Recently I've seen some gang graffiti.

Yesterday I came out of a small store and ran into one of these types. He obviously knows me from the prison. He had some lip, but being alone he did nothing. I find myself wondering the what if's. What if he had his posse? What if my wife was with me?

I never bothered going armed in my town, that has now changed. I will pack always. I'm looking at my P63 and thinking that it's a little inadequate. The combat commanders are just too big, plus I don't like cocked and locked concealed on my hip IWB.

What say you to a KAHR CW9 or CW40?

MrDontPlay
March 27, 2011, 11:04 AM
Either one, or a 45. Personally I'd go with the 40

Hiker 1
March 27, 2011, 11:09 AM
Are you a corrections officer? I bet that could potentially lead to some problems with the local misguided yoots.

The Kahrs are good, but they have single-stack mags. Are you only interested in a Kahr? A Sig 229, Glock 23/19 or Springfield XD-series will give you a significant number of extra rounds in a similar sized gun.

armoredman
March 27, 2011, 11:10 AM
Over 9 years inside the wire, and I NEVER go unarmed outside. I have great difficulty understanding staff who do not carry off duty, considering the inmates we have inside are fewer than the inmates in training that are outside the gates. Sorry to see it come home like that, but you got a wake up call that didn't cost you anything, use it.

garryc
March 27, 2011, 11:12 AM
Yep, a C/O. I like the CW because its thin. That's the reason I don't carry a revolver.

BfloBill
March 27, 2011, 01:17 PM
I've been in corrections 17 years. It was only a matter of time before you had that problem, having something on your hip when it happens is very comforting.
Anything you carry will be better than nothing, but if you go single stack an extra mag would be nice.

garryc
March 27, 2011, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, unlike a cop, I have to follow all the restrictions. Fact is, off duty I'm in more danger than a cop. A lot more criminals know me by face.

WC145
March 27, 2011, 01:35 PM
The CW9 is a great gun for the money. Light, easily concealed, accurate, and easy to shoot. I carried one for a while before going to a 9mm 1911 CCO (I carry a 9mm 1911 on duty) and never had a bit of trouble with it. If I had a need I wouldn't hesitate to get another.

Personally I don't consider mag capacity much of an issue, as I said I carry 1911's. Still, I always carry a spare mag or two, as much because they're the thing most likely to fail in any auto pistol as for the spare ammo.

Redbeardsong
March 27, 2011, 01:39 PM
Skip the slim single stacks and go directly to a higher capacity gun. Chances are high that if you have a run-in with an ex-inmate, he will have gang ties and he will probably have others with him at the time. You want all the firepower available. I'd say carry a gun with a minimum of 10+1 rounds. Plus an extra mag. It's much easier to carry a gun like that than you might think.

smince
March 27, 2011, 01:47 PM
What if he had his posse?

What say you to a KAHR CW9 or CW40? I'd say skip the sub-compact single stack guns and carry something at least Glock 19 size.

Something easy to shoot and having good capacity.

osallent
March 27, 2011, 02:03 PM
I don't think the answer is to buy a large capacity gun. Perhaps you should invest in a better neighborhood? Neighborhoods change over time...

I live in a town of 12,000 and we've only had 2 murder in the past 3 years. The place is clean, low crime rate and great schools. So there is the solution, move to a nicer area with a lower crime rate. I feel perfectly safe in my town to only carry a 5 shot snub nose revolver, and have never had to use it or come anywhere near close to it despite my many midnight walks. Having a competent police department, competent local government, and an affluent community that won't tolerate disorder goes a long way towards giving you peace of mind, much more than a tactical high capacity gun ever will.

MLeake
March 27, 2011, 02:19 PM
... I think his primary concern is the fact that the <person> in question has gang ties, and is one of the prisoners the OP used to supervise at the prison in his work as a CO.

Additionally, while living in nicer neighborhoods is always preferable, it's not always affordable. I've had CO friends, but in general they can't afford to pack up and move at will. The pay isn't that high, and it's not so easy to sell a home in today's environment, even for those with higher pay levels.

(Then again, my cousin is a LT in the Massachusetts corrections system, and I don't know that he could afford to move at will, either.)

So, while moving might be a fantastic option, a CCW is much more affordable and might be the most practical measure.

Onward Allusion
March 27, 2011, 02:22 PM
I'm looking at my P63 and thinking that it's a little inadequate.

As a Corrections Officer, I would imagine a Glock 17/19 or 22/23 would be more appropriate as an off-duty weapon.

Stevie-Ray
March 27, 2011, 02:27 PM
And form a neighborhood watch.

Whirlwind06
March 27, 2011, 02:29 PM
Ruger and kimber also have new single stacks out. Only 9mm though. Pick something you will carry all the time. A high cap duty gun is useless if you don't have it when you need it.

Hiker 1
March 27, 2011, 02:39 PM
Sig P6/P225's are nice and slim. They're used, but only cost around $300. I have one and it shoots like a champ. 8+1 9mm

Sarge
March 27, 2011, 03:06 PM
SW40VE. Carries like a G23, gobbles any ammo, 15 rounds of substantial power and it's safe in any sane carry mode. Learn to shoot it; dress around it. Mine works great under a tail-out T-shirt in a Safariland 27.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x187/SargeMO/CarneMuerto.jpg

AK103K
March 27, 2011, 03:18 PM
I live a couple of miles outside a nice, little rural town of 450 and in the last three years, we had one murder, not to far from my house. Not to mention a few other things going on.

It really doesnt matter where you live. When trouble comes, you only get to deal with it with what you have on you when it arrives, and thats got to sustain you till its done.

Some of us also dont have the police protection that many seem to take for granted and expect. We have no local cops here (we only just got 911 a couple years ago, and some still dont have it), and have to rely on a few state police, who have to cover a large area. Our response time could be a couple of minutes to half an hour or more, depending on where people are when the call goes out, and assuming they can find the house when they get here.

I'll keep my Glock 17 with its double reload (and many times, its smaller sibling) with me and be happy. :)

dylan1116
March 27, 2011, 04:21 PM
I just got a stoager cougar 8000f. Fits my hand like a glove, and shoots really nice. A bit heavier than most peoples every day carry, but i have it tucked in a belly-band with a homemade kydex insert right now. No problems yet, about 1000 rounds through it. Havent had any ft-anything problems. a couple hundred of those various defense rounds.

osallent
March 27, 2011, 05:05 PM
Wow AK103K, that is rough. Reminds me of a place I used to live at in central Florida that refused to incorporate because people were too cheap to pay taxes. As a result we had no police or fire protection and the place became a gathering place for rapists, drug dealers and human traffickers. After a few bad incidents around my neighborhood I sold at a loss and got the hell out of there as fast as I could legally drive down the road.

Am pretty happy where I am living at now, but I understand not everyone can afford to pick up and relocate like that. Stay safe!

Eagle0711
March 27, 2011, 05:09 PM
Moving will do little good, the whole country is in decline, with all the jobs moved overseas.

I'd pick an XD, M&P, or a Glock in 45 ACP, then 40S&W, then a 9mm. pick something that feels good in your hand, and you can carry with confidence and comfort.

For Gods sake don't ever go unarmed, and be willing to use it.

AK103K
March 27, 2011, 05:20 PM
Wow AK103K, that is rough.
Not really, we chose to move here, and I dont regret it in the least. I'd rather be here, than around a lot of people. "Most" of the time, its a lot more peaceful and quiet, than it is a worry.

My point was, it doenst matter where you are, people are people, and anything can happen, at any time, no matter how safe things appear.

Sometimes though, more freedom just requires a little more work or caution on your part. Ill gladly take that over a constant police presence, and interfering local governments, and what usually comes with it.

Glenn Dee
March 27, 2011, 05:56 PM
I think the OP's problem is with the state, or municipality first. He's a corrections officer. IMO Corrections officers are not given the respect, or commitment they need and deserve. ALL corrections officers should be considered into some level of law enforcement. All corrections officers should be given the same consideration given to off duty police officers, or deputies.

Corrections officers should by statute be given the option to protect themselves when not at work.

Gary C... Does your department provide any firearms training?. If so what is the service pistol/revolver issued to armed officers? I'd recomend that if you just want a firearm and have no plans of a dedicated training/practice regimen go with what ever you qualify with at work. Other than that the world is your oyster. A good service size/style pistol would be a Glock 19, or a 2" round butt model 10 revolver.

Without knowing if you work in a prison or a jail I'd guess it's a jail if you run into former inmates in your community. What does your department recomend, or mandate you do when encountering a former inmate? You may want to take these questions into consideration when choosing a firearm.

Edward429451
March 27, 2011, 06:10 PM
I could have carried a compact all those years. I did not, and chose to carry a 5" 1911 IWB. The way I figure it, bigger guns are easier to shoot well than any compact or mousegun. If I ever ran into some gangbangers or something I would be stressed, so the big controls and sights would help me to give a more effective response over some diminutive gun that's hard enough to hit with even under relaxed conditions.

Yeah, it's heavy at 39 oz, but its slim and you get used to it. It is more comforting than a 38 snub for sure.

Constantine
March 27, 2011, 06:24 PM
Yeah...I feel the OP's pain.

I carry my XD45 with an extra mag.

Or my custom 1911 with 1 or 2 extra mags also.



Or if I'm feeling glocky cocky one of those little puppies with a spare.

ALWAYS on me. You won't ever catch me without a gun on me.

ltc444
March 27, 2011, 07:10 PM
First Thank you for your service. COs have a thankless, dangerous job and recieve little of the respect they deserve.

1st Allways carry at least one spare magazine. It is the simplest and fastest way to clear a malfunction. Drop the Mag, clear the jam, insert the new mag and get back into the fight.

2nd. Survival is 90% will to survive and training.

3rd. Use the weapon you are most comfortable with, have the most training with, and are confident with.

My preferred carry is a 1911 GI issue. I have fired thousands of rounds through rack grade 1911s. I have total confidence in the weapon, the round and my ability to hit whatever I aim at.

You must establish that same level of confidence in what ever you carry.

Good luck, God bless and once again thanks for your service.

garryc
March 27, 2011, 10:28 PM
Gary C... Does your department provide any firearms training?. If so what is the service pistol/revolver issued to armed officers? I'd recomend that if you just want a firearm and have no plans of a dedicated training/practice regimen go with what ever you qualify with at work. Other than that the world is your oyster. A good service size/style pistol would be a Glock 19, or a 2" round butt model 10 revolver.

We use a S+W 64, most 30 or more years old. Let me say I don't feel under gunned with a 9 and the right loads. The two I speak of are the CCI short barrel +p's and the Remington Saber. I've shot enough of those, and dug them out of clay, to be impressed.

Te training at the prison is not to be considered, it's a joke and no better than minimum training for a CCW. There are no tactical considerations in either. My experience is with auto's, and tactical movement add situational awareness. The dynamics of groups are a specialty of a C/O, or they better be.

I've watched these CCW classes, basically they make someone feel ready, right up until they get killed. I actually spoke at one, and went into use of obsticals, demeanor and awareness, ****** the instructor off. He said 'I teach the NRA way!" Well, if that's the NRA way, the NRA way sucks.

What he teaches is intro. Without tactical ability, combining UASD with the gun, and situatioal awareness, that person is lost with a gang banger. Guess what, gang bangers practice these days.

irish52084
March 28, 2011, 10:39 PM
From my own experience, I have pretty much given up on "small" carry guns. A good belt and holster take care of hiding and distributing the weight of a larger gun. I also carry 2 extra mags with me when possible. Mags at the ready make clearing malfunctions much easier.

My typical load out is a Springfield XD in 357SIG with 2 12 round mags on my weak or reaction hand side and the loaded XD on my strong, right for me, side. This allows me 37 rounds of 357SIG and doesn't really carry worse for me than just the pistol without the extra mags.

My secondary carry gun is a CZ SP-01 with 19 rounds of 9mm at the ready and a spare 18 round mag, soon to carry 2 spare mags for it as well. It's big, but my state laws on carry allow for open carry or concealed carry. So no big worries if my gun prints. Different states obviously have different laws, so be aware of them as they can impact your gun and gear choices.

More important than the gun is how much you train with the weapon and how well you handle it under stress. Just drawing a pistol from concealed can be a chore if you don't practice. Get the Magpul dvd set "art of the dynamic handgun" and practice all the drills till you can't stand it anymore, then practice them again the next day. Lots of dry fire practice really helped me and since I don't have the money to train under a professional the dvd's really were excellent for me.

jrothWA
March 29, 2011, 12:55 AM
Carry what you are comfortable with and PLACING rounds where needed.

Sound out other fellow CO's and determine what they are doing, maybe somebody from the field LEO's can be a coach for you.

For my personal carry, it varies from a J-frame with two speed-loaders to BHP, M39-2, or .45, all with two spare mags.

Good luck!

freenokia
March 29, 2011, 01:16 AM
I like the 9mm. If I felt like I needed more power than that I'd move up to a 357. A g26 with g17 mags for reload is a force to be reconed with :)

skifast
March 29, 2011, 09:03 AM
I live in the city to the South that Garry refers. I carry a FNX-9 with a backup mag in a AIWB holster. When I run or wearing clothes without a belt, I carry a Taurus 709.

My advice is to carry a high cap 9mm. The 9mm with modern HP ammo(Win ranger T-series 147gr is my choice) does everything a 45 does, if put in the same place. If you are faced with 4 gang members, a 1911 gives you 2 rounds per guy without reloading, a high cap 9, you have 4+ per assailant. Considering the potential ineffectiveness of any handgun round,more is better.

Learn to get off the X and make head shots.

COSteve
March 29, 2011, 09:43 AM
Small town, suburb, or city it really doesn't matter. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. You need to be prepared to protect yourself and your family. CCW is a state of mind as much as anything else.

BTW, a Glock G23 with TruGlo TFOs and 180grn Speer GDs sits on my hip ready.

tlm225
March 29, 2011, 09:54 AM
I tried the CW40. It didn't work for me due to reliability problems even after two trips back to the factory. After much thought I bought a Kahr K-40, so far it's been great. It seems that the CW9 has been far more reliable than the CW40, I just prefer the .40 cal.

You might consider the Glock 26/27 for carry. Good capacity, reliability, and accuracy. I have a G-23 that used to carry as my primary off-duty (after I got the Crossbreed Supertuck). I got the Kahr for off-duty because it fit my hand much better than any other auto I've tried.

Be safe.

BRE346
March 29, 2011, 10:22 AM
I don't envy the Corrections Officer, or any other peace officer for that matter.

There is lots of good advice in this thread.

IMO, they need the biggest gun they can carry, with all the ammo they can manage.

I'm old and growing feeble, so I must limit myself to a 9mm, but there 13 rounds in it and another dozen in a mag on my belt. I may carry my snubbie too, when I figure out how. The day may come when it is all I can manage.

threegun
March 29, 2011, 02:33 PM
Unfortunately, unlike a cop, I have to follow all the restrictions. Fact is, off duty I'm in more danger than a cop. A lot more criminals know me by face.

Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.

I've watched these CCW classes, basically they make someone feel ready, right up until they get killed. I actually spoke at one, and went into use of obsticals, demeanor and awareness, ****** the instructor off. He said 'I teach the NRA way!" Well, if that's the NRA way, the NRA way sucks.

What he teaches is intro. Without tactical ability, combining UASD with the gun, and situatioal awareness, that person is lost with a gang banger. Guess what, gang bangers practice these days.

NRA first steps or basic pistol course is just what it says basic. Its not designed to be anything more than that. In my first steps course we follow the book per NRA demands. After we are done in my class I ask if the student wish to stay for extra. Those who choose to stay get a crash course in the how to fight with a handgun from the importance of Situational Awareness to tactics like firing from the retention position, shooting your way to cover, maintaining distance, shooting on the move, weak hand shooting and much much more. Guess what? My students are no more ready for a shootout. Nope not until they begin to practice the tactics and live in condition yellow are they better ready to face an armed confrontation.

My point is take a course tailored to your needs rather than pooh poohing an instructor teaching a course properly.

MLeake
March 29, 2011, 02:43 PM
... I used to work out in a dojo with some CO's. They used to tell horror stories of the things over which inmates would get violent. One of the guys was supervising a road crew, and occasionally shooting the bull with a trustee, a guy he thought he got along with. However, when it came time to put the guys back on the bus, he made the trustee put out the cigarette the trustee was smoking.

Apparently the trustee thought the CO had made him look like a bitch, so he decided to attack the CO with a bush axe (one of the tools the road crew had been using). Luckily, the CO had been training at the dojo with bokken and staff take-aways; he was uninjured, the trustee ended up knocked out, and lost his trustee status.

My CO friend's point was that most of the inmates were not in there because they had good impulse control.

My cousin, a Massachusetts corrections Lieutenant, is on medical leave with a separated shoulder, because he got attacked by an inmate while he was supervising a change of cells.

A friend of mine who recently retired as a San Diego deputy sheriff told me that their department starts all new deputies in the jail, because they want the guys to recognize the bad guys when they are out on street patrol. SDSO seems to feel officer survival goes up when the deputies know many of the bad guy's faces. (Because a lot of the guys who were in jail, will do things to earn their way back to jail once they get out.)



Another

WC145
March 29, 2011, 05:16 PM
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.

Seriously? You don't think that any CO is at risk unless they've abused a prisoner that then recognizes them on the outside? That's incredibly ignorant. Do you think that guards get harmed on the inside only becaused they've done something to "deserve" it? Spare me.:mad:

garryc
March 29, 2011, 06:42 PM
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.


An attack on a C/O is generally an attack on the system. Kind of like "It ain't personal." Same as randomly shooting a cop.

adn258
March 29, 2011, 06:43 PM
I think my only advice to the gentleman who said his P63 is inadequate, how about a glock? A Glock 20 10mm to be exact. This has quite a bit of punch for an auto loading handgun that doesn't weigh too much. There is some great 10mm ammunition out there as well.

Also of course since it's a glock they are extremely reliable. The 20 if I've heard correctly HAS some of the best muzzle velocity of any of the other 10mm glocks. In any case 10mm is decent against anything with 2 legs. Do remember that even if youuDO have to defend yourself with a firearm that you are responsible for other people.

The bigger the gun the better chance it can go through walls etc.

garryc
March 29, 2011, 07:13 PM
I have no question as to the effectiveness of a 9mm with the right load. CCI short barrel HP's or Sabers.

Tactically, I'm shoot and scoot. My objective is to extract myself from the situation. If a perp pursues me and I shoot him, that show to my advantage in the scene invest.

threegun
March 29, 2011, 07:23 PM
Seriously? You don't think that any CO is at risk unless they've abused a prisoner that then recognizes them on the outside? That's incredibly ignorant.


To give you the courtesy of an answer......no I don't think that a former inmate while free in society would harm a CO without a reason. A CO cannot arrest them.

I think LE officers are much more at risk of attack than any CO.

Do you think that guards get harmed on the inside only becaused they've done something to "deserve" it? Spare me

We aren't talking about on the inside. Again my question was why would a former inmate want to harm a CO after he has been released?

Maybe produce some evidence suggesting you are correct instead of hurling insults. Heck a reasonable answer to my question would be better than name calling.

JN01
March 29, 2011, 08:25 PM
Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.

Short answer: because they are scumbags.

A CO may have a particular inmate in his cell block all day, every day, for years. Perhaps the CO enforces the rules, and because he does, the inmate develops a long simmering resentment. Maybe the inmate doesn't do anything about it inside because if he does, there is no where to run, and eyes are everywhere. Now, he gets out and sees the CO on the street and he feels its open season. And since he now has unrestricted access, perhaps he is under the influence of his drug of choice, inhibiting whatever trace of reservation he might have had.

Maybe he just hates COs as a general principle.

Why do these creeps go back to prison 5, 6 times? Because they feel entitled to do whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want. They don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.

armoredman
March 29, 2011, 11:21 PM
They do attack us, but the rate of COs off duty hurt by assault as cops on duty is much smaller - we don't go looking for them, and MOST of the time they don't go looking for us. Some do. If you've never been inside and seen some of the empty suits of skin walking around pretending to be human, you have no idea what you are talking about. I have worked maximum, close and medium custody, sex offenders and GP, plus a bit on Death Row. Some of the inmates in there believe killing a person is the same as turning off a light, and it doesn't matter who it is. I have seen inmates attack staff simply because they were the next person in brown to be walking by. Yes, that's inside, but when you couple this attitude with the fact that 95% of all inmates are released some day, it can get your attention. If you believe we are just making this up, fine, believe what you want, but walk inside the wire sometime - might change your mind.
My Dept issues the Glock 17, but I don't like it, even after qualifying Expert or Distinguished Expert every year with it, so I carry a CZ P-01 with two spares off duty, and may be moving to the CZ SP-01 Phantom with the 18 round mags, two spares. Yes, they run in packs, and many of them know me by face. I enforce the rules inside, and they don't like that. Too bad.
Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible.
Just goes along with being the red-headed step-children of LE.:p

BikerRN
March 30, 2011, 01:07 AM
To give you the courtesy of an answer......no I don't think that a former inmate while free in society would harm a CO without a reason. A CO cannot arrest them.

I think LE officers are much more at risk of attack than any CO.

Having been on the inside, I cannot begin to tell you how stupid your statement and belifs are.

Armored Man did a much better, and nicer, job of explaining it than I could. I will choose to ignore you, as you clearly are either very naive, intellectually challenged, or a substance abuser that has had one too many hits at the crack pipe.

Truth be told, after an arrest, street cops have less to worry about from someone they put away than those that keep them incarcerated.

Biker

garryc
March 30, 2011, 06:21 AM
Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible.
Just goes along with being the red-headed step-children of LE.

Bingo!!

Many times I've come on a former inmate trying to do right. I shake their hand and talk to them some. They call me Mr. C, I tell them it's Garry out here. The last guy I ran into at Giant Eagle I actually gave a recipe to, wrote it down for him. Running straight with a record is tough, real tough.


And I never said a C/O was in more danger off duty than when a cop is on duty. More danger off duty than a cop is OFF duty. It simply is based on recognition. A cop might deal with a hand full of felons in a weeks time, me, 1750 a day when I was a yard officer.

As far as the gun, I really don't need a High Cap. I simply don't go very many places. Round the corner stuff. Mostly I'm a home body. I really don't go anywhere at night. We haven't really been to a restaurant in several years. No clubbing, no theaters except for an early matinee.

ojibweindian
March 30, 2011, 06:39 AM
Gary

I'd most definitely think you'd need a "full cap" gun because, though you're not looking for trouble, someday trouble, and a butt-load of it, might come looking for you. It'd be a lot easier to fend off several attackers with 32 on tap or available out of a Glock 19 or an XD9. And, either one of those two are pretty easy to conceal and get up and running in a hurry. Also, with 16 or 17 round mags, you have a better chance of not going to slide lock while exposed in the middle of a gun fight.

I think the latest edition of American Handgunner has an "Ayoob Files" article that highlights the advantage of having more rounds in your gun than the opposition.

jkgruet
March 30, 2011, 06:39 AM
Good thread. Most importantly, I have come to have a much better appreciation for the correction officer job. I'd not really thought about it before very much. Thank you.

I've long been a believer that there really is such a thing as a stupid question. But I also think that puts a higher burden on the one answering the question, since, in most cases, the questioner doesn't realize that it's stupid -- but at least realizes that he may yet have something to learn. And that's a good thing.

Bernie Lomax
March 30, 2011, 07:20 AM
Moving will do little good, the whole country is in decline, with all the jobs moved overseas.

That's absolutely correct. Also, Section 8 programs have been used to transplant miniature ghettos into just about every (formerly) decent neighborhood in the country. Not even places like Westchester and Marin County are safe anymore:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/03/26/white.county.diversity.cnn?hpt=C2
http://issuesviews.blogspot.com/2009/11/westchester-and-latest-integration.html

I live in a neighborhood that's recently been "enriched" with Section 8 "diversity" and was considering moving, but then I realized that there's really nowhere left to run to. It's time to cowboy up and start fighting back.

threegun
March 30, 2011, 09:15 AM
Having been on the inside, I cannot begin to tell you how stupid your statement and belifs are.

Armored Man did a much better, and nicer, job of explaining it than I could. I will choose to ignore you, as you clearly are either very naive, intellectually challenged, or a substance abuser that has had one too many hits at the crack pipe.

Truth be told, after an arrest, street cops have less to worry about from someone they put away than those that keep them incarcerated.

Biker

Until I see statistics that show a CO at a higher level of danger while offduty from a former inmate now a free civilian I will disagree.

If you are correct then there would be stats and stories to prove such. Providing them would certainly prove me all the things you called me. Until then you have proved nothing with your tirade except that CO's job turns them into impolite humans.

Oddly enough, I have had several ex-inmates come up to me to brag about how they are staying clean and gainfully employed, and I always give them as much positive feedback as possible

Many times I've come on a former inmate trying to do right. I shake their hand and talk to them some. They call me Mr. C, I tell them it's Garry out here. The last guy I ran into at Giant Eagle I actually gave a recipe to, wrote it down for him. Running straight with a record is tough, real tough.



Seems the evidence provided so far is exacelty opposite.

BikerRN
March 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10408797

http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2009/03/28/off-duty-prison-guard-attacked-at-norcal-rest-stop/

http://www.marinij.com/ci_11734401?source=most_viewed

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/nyregion/metro-briefing-connecticut-hartford-prison-guard-killed.html?src=pm

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/01/25/news/doc4b5e171095f0b468583795.txt

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/gridley-ca/TNONQEIS45Q4IO8L4

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Prison-Guard-Killed-on-Way-to-Work-96785909.html

http://sxmislandtime.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13349:prison-guard-shot-close-to-mullet-bay-beach-friday&catid=31:general&Itemid=76

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=49175

http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2007/10/14/past%20stories/19998749.txt

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-11-01/news/1994305026_1_turman-mitchem-civil-lawsuit/2

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/bullets-fly-through-prison-guards-home

That should be enough to prove that CO's face danger on the outside.

Biker

threegun
March 30, 2011, 04:39 PM
An off-duty prison officer was assaulted yesterday after gang members tried to steal his Harley Davidson motorbike in Kaikohe.



When the men left the saloon, they exchanged words with four men outside the bar, said Fairfax police Sgt. Chris Morin. One of the guards was then punched in the face, sending him falling backward.



but said investigators didn�t believe the animosity had anything to do with his role as a prison guard.



Biker, Unfortunately not a single link you provided suggested that the bad guys were committing the act because of the CO job. Bar fights, robbery, cycle theft, and court testimony are some that come to mind.

In your mind how does ordinary crime that happens to a CO equal an increase in danger from former inmates?

That should be enough to prove that CO's face danger on the outside.



BTW I never said CO's don't face danger outside prison. We all do. Crime happens to everyone.

So please provide proof that the danger CO's face on the outside is higher due to their job. Try reading the linked articles next time.

JN01
March 30, 2011, 05:15 PM
Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?

garryc
March 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
Back to the subject at hand, what's the reports on the Ruger SR9c?

Glenn Dee
March 30, 2011, 07:14 PM
As I've stated in other posts...

I believe squairly that Corrections officers, and detention deputies are a level of law enforcement. Like off duty police officers, off duty corrections officers face similar if not greater personal danger as a result of their duties.

First off There are no good guys within the prison/jail population as there are in the community at large. Corrections officers are imersed in a society of people who have already served notice of their anti-social bend. Further corrections officers are outnumbered by the hundreds to one. In order to maintain a safe productive work envioronment for officers, staff, and inmates these officers must enforce rule's and laws and control violence without firearms for the most part.

Given the proliferation of gangs within the prison proper, and their reach and ability to effect peoples life outside the prison. I believe that Corrections officers should be allowed by law to be armed.

OK End of rant. As a corrections officer or detention deputy should make every effort to have the ability to protect himself and his family. I think the kind, calibre, or make of his weapon should be personal, and not taken lightly.

A poster mentioned that a corrections officer who had not abused anyone would have nothing to worry about. Thats just silly. As I mentioned a gang may want to send a message by harming a random or particular officer. Again I may have a better understanding of the criminal element based on my few years in law enforcement. Criminals DO NOT!!! follow the same linier logic that most of us would call normal. More than a few inmates suffer from various emotional, and or mental disorders and may be a danger to all law enforcement but particularly corrections officers. Remember... The only thing keeping these people in that big gray place and away from all of us is the corrections officers.

Keeping the post on track about firearms. I was fortunate to live in a state that recognized these issues, and corrections officers, local, county, and state were sworn peace officers. The local officers I knew and shot with mostly carried the same off duty .38 spl chiefs, det specials, and sp101' s as the local cops carried. (NYC department of Corrections) The Dept issued 4" HB model 10 revolvers to officers in transport, and I think 2" model 10's to investigators. But I believe all officers had the choice to use their own personal gun. They also had long arms, shot guns, and automatic weapons. Later when the NYPD transitioned to automatic pistols, so the the Department of corrections, and I saw Glock 19's as the replacements for the 4" model 10's. The State Dept of corrections I believe were also issued model 10's. Most of the guys I knew from State purchase their own model 10's. Not sure about the various counties.


Glenn D.

garryc
March 30, 2011, 07:26 PM
We are slated to transition to a Glock 23. Seems like an ok gun, little big for what I want and how I want to carry. I was thinking the Kahr, now I'm looking at the SR9c. I figure I'd carry the 10 round in the gun, and the 17 as a mag change. I figure the SR9c has a mag disconnect, one feature I do not like.

threegun
March 30, 2011, 07:45 PM
Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?

Don't have any. As I stated in my post it was just my thought. I'm curious as I can't recall a single time in my life of ever hearing of a released convict attacking a CO he recognized while off duty. Still waiting for the stats to support the claim.

Understand it doesn't matter to me which way this goes. If I'm wrong so be it. I will be enlightened. However when folks call me names for asking a question it becomes somewhat personal.

armoredman
March 31, 2011, 12:40 AM
There was a video of a NJ CO sitting on the front steps of his brownstone when an ex-inmate attacked him. CO was armed, killed ex inmate. No, I don't remember where the story was from except the state and I don't have a link. Was actually shown it in briefing once. I also knew a murderer who did 25 flat who would NEVER attack a female CO - he'd wait until the next male officer came by to attack. He's been out for a few years now, left the state, have no idea what he's done since then.
1700 inmates on one yard? I'll believe it - last yard I ran as a Sgt had 1200 with 32 staff, including me.
We have always had the same carry authority as any LEO in AZ, but the law changes makes that pretty meaningless except when I go to school for my son.:D
Carry what you are comfortable with and can shoot well. If a 38 revolver is what you do best with, then carry it. Better six well aimed shots than 32 randoms into a condo behind the BG. practice reloads with good speedloaders.
For those who haven't been inside the wire involuntarily, contact your local DOC for a tour - they can be arranged.
DOC, doing 20 years, 8 hours at a time.

garryc
March 31, 2011, 05:48 AM
Yep, all locks open, free movement. Often my yard 2 was pulled, leaving me alone. Responders available if called? Sure. Do you know how long two minutes can be?

JN01
March 31, 2011, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Where's your statistics to prove that ex-cons only attack COs who abuse them?

Don't have any. As I stated in my post it was just my thought. I'm curious as I can't recall a single time in my life of ever hearing of a released convict attacking a CO he recognized while off duty. Still waiting for the stats to support the claim.

Understand it doesn't matter to me which way this goes. If I'm wrong so be it. I will be enlightened. However when folks call me names for asking a question it becomes somewhat personal.

Yep, and when you imply that (potential) victims are somehow to blame for whatever trouble may find them, they take it personally as well.

I expect that there are no readily available statistics to prove the point one way or another. The folks that actually work in that situation probably have a better grasp of what really goes on than someone who never has, I suspect.

pro tc
April 1, 2011, 12:05 AM
morel of the story is we all need to be prepared.god bless anyone that works in any form of law enforcement.
pro

threegun
April 1, 2011, 07:04 AM
Yep, and when you imply that (potential) victims are somehow to blame for whatever trouble may find them, they take it personally as well

Sorry you took it like that. I was simply asking a question and giving the only reason I would have (if I was incarcerated) for wanting to get back at someone doing their job as an CO.

I suspect that the danger of an ex inmate seeking revenge on a recognized CO in public is very low. This is why we have only one account (and here-say at that) of this actually happening. We have many more (here-say) reports to the contrary, reports of released inmates being polite.

The evidence provided in fact does suggest that CO's are just as likely as regular civilians to be victims of crime. This alone is reason enough to justify carrying everywhere.

GarryC's encounter which ended his going to town unarmed seems more to do with the up tick in crime and gangs than it does with animosity due to the CO job as evidenced by the vast majority of former inmates who do nothing after release.

As to answer the OP's question.....What say you to a KAHR CW9 or CW40?


I owned a CW9 and it was a good little gun. I currently own a PM9 and it fits a good niche. That said if I was facing potential gang threat I would opt for a hi capacity firearm like my G19. Since gangs often hang out in numbers the higher capacity could come into play.

It would be unnecessary to change anything as far as preparation against an ex inmate who does wish to exact revenge as I would already be prepared for the gang risk. This provided that I already use excellent situational awareness and remain in condition yellow as often as possible.

BikerRN
April 1, 2011, 10:59 AM
Sorry you took it like that. I was simply asking a question and giving the only reason I would have (if I was incarcerated) for wanting to get back at someone doing their job as an CO.

Yes, but you are thinking like a straight person.

Someone that thinks like you is despised and seen only as a "mark", victim, or other terminology in the mind of a criminal. They really don't think like you and the non-criminal world. It's a very warped, self-centered, way of thinking that occupies the criminal mind.

Kindness is a weakness.

Biker

threegun
April 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
Biker, I understand what you are saying. Kinda like trying to understand why a serial killer does what they do. If your brain isn't disfunctional its hard to understand.

Someone that thinks like you is despised and seen only as a "mark", victim, or other terminology in the mind of a criminal.

Now this suggests that I don't fully understand what criminals are capable of. Remember my question of why, followed by my answer of abuse, in no way means I don't think that bad guys do crap for no reason. As I said in my entire life, much of which has been spent dealing with guns and less than stellar pawn clientel, I don't recall ever hearing of a CO being targeted by a released inmate simply because they remembered them from inside. No evidence to indicate otherwise has been presented. I'm left wondering why all the worry by off duty CO's about this particular threat?

BTW to date I have yet to be victimized by those you speak of.

BikerRN
April 1, 2011, 04:22 PM
Threegun,

It seems that you are a "thinker". Be careful, or they will promote you to warden.

I don't much care about the why, as it holds no interest to me. I would much rather deal with the here and now and then move on. There were a few cases of CO's being targeted on the outside, IIRC, in the links I posted. Not that there isn't a "bad apple" in the CO Barrel now and again, I just don't think abuse or being "dirty" is the reason for a lot of things inmates do to staff on the inside or the outside.

I've managed to make enemies on the inside. Thinking like a straight person, I don't think anyone is after me. That does not mean however that an ex-inmate won't take the time to settle the score on the outside if the opportunity presents itself.

All one can do LEO, CO, or John Q Public is to be prepared as best they can. Given the nature of the people CO's are around daily increases the danger and liklihood of something happening, even if it never comes to fruition.

Biker

Webleymkv
April 1, 2011, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Unfortunately, unlike a cop, I have to follow all the restrictions. Fact is, off duty I'm in more danger than a cop. A lot more criminals know me by face.

Why would any former jailbird want to harm the guards after they have been released? The only reason I can think of is to get paybacks for abuse.


Or perhaps paybacks for perceived "abuse". Perhaps Billy the ex-con has a grudge against Mr. CO becuase Mr. CO confiscated his Playboys or because Mr. CO is the one that caught him with the weapon that got another few years tacked on to his sentence. What you or I are willing to get violent about and what the average inmate is willing to get violent about are probably very different things. Remember, these are people who have already demonstrated that they have trouble being a productive member of society (hence the high percentage of repeat offenders). What you and I would probably perceive as Mr. CO just doing his job might very well be perceived by Billy the ex-con as having been "wronged". Whether you intended it that way or not, your initial statement did come off as a veiled accusation.

I suspect that you're thinking the same as I do: if I were an ex-con, the last thing I'd want to do is something that will get me sent back to prison. Indeed, this is how most normal people think, but then again most normal people don't get thrown in the slammer to begin with.

garryc
April 1, 2011, 05:31 PM
I don't recall ever hearing of a CO being targeted by a released inmate simply because they remembered them from inside.

Who said "targeted", target of opportunity maybe.


Back to the subject, I'm taking a shine to this:

http://www.ruger.com/products/sr9c/images/3314.jpg

BigBob3006
April 1, 2011, 06:40 PM
Garrry,

I carry a Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP. In it there are eight rounds counting the most important one that's up the snoot. The load is a 200gr Hornady HP-XTP, 6.1gr of Winchester-231 and a CCI LP primer. I've chronographed this load at 832 fps. I don't care how big the bad guy is, two of these just above the belt buckle and he will be a gut holding, quivering mass for a little while. Then he will be real quiet, just like a good boy should be.

There are three rules to follow. Your better judge by twelve than carried by six. Do it right and there will only be one liar in court. Your number one job is to go home at night.

Do it right. :):):)

garryc
April 1, 2011, 06:47 PM
I've carried the commander in a jackass rig, or my GP-100. That requires an outer garment, which I don't like to wear if I don't have to. I'm a T-shirt and jeans type. That and the jackass rig takes a minute to put on, I want to just tuck and go.


Likely I'll get it them Ruger will come out with an SR40c, the way it works

threegun
April 3, 2011, 06:45 AM
Who said "targeted", target of opportunity maybe.

Garryc, Never heard of a CO being attacked off duty by a former inmate they were charged with babysitting while the former inmate was free in public.

Hope thats better for you.


There were a few cases of CO's being targeted on the outside, IIRC, in the links I posted

Nope. There was a single case in which a former inmate did a drive by shooting. Problem here is officials were unsure whether is was due to the CO's job or the pending testimony someone else in the house was about to give.

Be careful, or they will promote you to warden.

Biker, I wouldn't do your job for anything in the world. I made a trip as a high school student to Raiford Penitentiary for a criminal justice field trip. It was the spookiest thing I have ever done. We witnessed the carnage via photos of the violence they do to each other (and I'm sure you guys as well). They showed us the improvised weapons used. We toured a cell block with guys whistling and wanting to have a piece of your angus.

Between this experience and some reality tv shows depicting prison life, I would never voluntarily place myself in that environment for any amount of pay.

While I suspect your concern over inmates coming after you (in society) is over rated I commend your courage and watermelon sized man jewels for being able to do a job so dangerous.

Remember I have no skin in this game. This started as a question I asked. Then I was attacked with name calling and such. What started as a simple question has become a quest to prove that I'm not the things posted and in fact am correct in my opinion. It was not intentional on my part to insult anyone.

Chainman
April 3, 2011, 07:55 AM
I live in the midwest so we have alot of variation in our clothes over the year. I need to carry deeply concealed for my specific scenario so my requirements may be different from your and I need different tools for the job.

Best way to break it down is get at least 3 pistols over time tailored to your needs.


1. Sub-Compact: For those summer days you want a muscle shirt and shorts.
Good Options - KelTec P380, Ruger LCP. Throw these in your back pocket in a Nemesis holster and you'll forget you have it (looks just like your wallet).

These things are smaller and lighter than most of our wallets and .380 with 7 shots is better than nothing. Revolvers would be in the 38 Spcl size here.

2. Compact: For fall and spring when I'm wearing pullovers throughout the day. Typically I'm going to carry IWB and not in a pocket so i can afford a little thickness. Good Options - Just about any Compact under the size of a full size combat pistol...Glock 23 etc, 1911 Officer Type. You can go full size here but I'm more about comfort so shave an inch off the barrel, mag, and lose 10 oz. Ruger SP 101 is an awesome revolver in here.

3. Full Size: For Late Fall through early spring. I know i'm going to have lots of layers to comfortably carry concealed OWB.

Full size Glock 22 etc, 1911 Full Size, you name it. These can be stowed away under T-shirts and the like during summer even, but for me this is just a break down of what I'm comfortable with. Break out that Anaconda and practice your best "that's not a gun, this is a gun" line.

Point is, if you have the right tool to fit different applications that fit YOUR needs, you will be more likely to use it day in and day out. You can't drive a nail with a screwdriver, you need a hammer for that...know what I mean?

Never got into the pocket pistols "shoot and run", 32's and 25's. I'd rather just run.

garryc
April 3, 2011, 04:20 PM
Re-evaluate

I have a 3" GP-100 stainless. It does seem to tuck well even without a holster. So, what about that gun in a Cross Breed Holster? Does that holster tend to flatten things out?


It has a black sight held on with a drive pin. I wonder if I can get orange for it. It's not a regular GP-100 sight.

threegun
April 4, 2011, 07:36 AM
Garry how about a fanny pack? Conceal whatever size gun you want.

garryc
April 4, 2011, 09:40 AM
Garry how about a fanny pack? Conceal whatever size gun you want.


Around here we call that a faggy pack. Stands out like a sore thumb, no men wear them, kind of like a purse.

threegun
April 4, 2011, 10:39 AM
At my age and with 2 kids and a pretty wife, I could care less what others say. My coworkers rib me also BTW. I have found that it is the most comfortable and convenient way to carry no matter the attire. Plus it holds all my money, coins, id, credit cards, so meds, checkbook, and the all to important spare mag. It takes literally 5 seconds to bring all the above with me. Access is both fast and discreet should you need to access without spooking someone.

Once I got past the ribbing its been wonderful. Plus I get to carry larger than normal guns given some attire.

BTW, I have only been "made" twice in over 15 years.

Bernie Lomax
April 4, 2011, 11:01 AM
Around here we call that a faggy pack. Stands out like a sore thumb, no men wear them, kind of like a purse.

Epic Beard Man wore a fanny pack.

Respect the fanny pack.

threegun
April 4, 2011, 11:25 AM
Respect the fanny pack.


Start the trend brother. Man purses rule LOL.

Stevie-Ray
April 4, 2011, 03:13 PM
Best way to break it down is get at least 3 pistols over time tailored to your needs. +1. I'd say that a majority eventually feel this way. Personally I have 4 in my rotation. Seems nothing is ever "best for everything," though my Kimber UCDP comes close.

And I even have a use for the fanny pack. Vacationing without one is a non-starter for me. My carry piece and wallet both go in it in front of me. Takes pickpockets out of the equation.

garryc
April 4, 2011, 05:08 PM
I'm figuring the 3" gp100 when I'm wearing a coat and so is he likely. The SR9c in spring and fall when jackets are worn. Then the P 64 in the heat of summer.

Being stuck with FMJ in the 9x18 concerns me a little. HP's expand at he cost of penetration, gang bangers tend to be real tight when they get out of prison. I was watching one work out awhile back and I was wondering how much of that bullet energy would be eaten up getting through that chest muscle.

BikerRN
April 4, 2011, 05:18 PM
I was watching one work out awhile back and I was wondering how much of that bullet energy would be eaten up getting through that chest muscle.

I had one like that.

Made me go back to the 125 grain JHP for a spell. The load puts out 624 foot pounds of energy out of a 4" barrel. I might lose a little energy with the 3" barrel, but it's still more energy than any other caliber I care to carry.

Biker

therewolf
April 4, 2011, 05:27 PM
CCW, check.

Nailclippers for backup, check.

(Hey, anything that can hijack a plane should be decent BU...)

kaylorinhi
April 4, 2011, 05:42 PM
Para 13-45, commander size, 13 rounds of .45! Whats not to like?

JohnKSa
April 4, 2011, 05:50 PM
Never heard of a CO being attacked off duty by a former inmate they were charged with babysitting while the former inmate was free in public. A couple of observations.

1. "Never heard of X" is evidence of the ignorance (in terms of the straight up definition of ignorance, not in an insulting sense of the word) of the person making the assertion. It is not evidence of the fact that "X" does not occur, is rare, has never occurred, is unlikely to occur, etc. The exception would be if the person making the comment is an established expert on the topic or is able to establish himself as an expert on the topic.

2. When one makes a statement it is incumbent on the person making the statement to provide evidence supporting it, not on others to provide evidence that it is false. Attempting to shift the burden of proof is considered a logical fallacy and also poor form in a debate.

Finally, it does appear that corrections officers are sometimes targeted by former inmates on the outside.

He says they must have been doing too good a job, because on March 5th a man Johnson recognized as a former inmate broke down the door of his home and shot him six times in the chest and abdomen.
http://www2.wspa.com/news/2010/sep/14/3/attack-sc-prison-guard-renews-phone-jam-debate-ar-827129/

COOKEVILLE -- A Putnam County jail corrections officer suffered bruises and other minor injuries Tuesday when a former jail inmate attacked him, officials said. Now that former inmate, Marcus Wright, 24, of Cookeville, is once again an inmate, charged with assault and resisting arrest. http://icsog.info/article/2009/3/14/former-jail-inmate-attacks-corrections-officer

WAYNE COUNTY — A former inmate has been charged with the murder of a prison guard. Chardan Whitehead, 24, assaulted corrections officer Edward Pounds during an anticipated use of force, Goldsboro Police said.
http://themunz.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/correctional-officer-edward-pounds-north-carolina-department-of-correction-division-of-prisons-north-carolina-end-of-watch-saturday-january-9-2010/

A State Correctional Officer in New York is shot at off duty in an attempted hit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UtvpULAo9E

Nitesites
April 4, 2011, 06:06 PM
Respect the fanny pack.

lol! That was epic!

garryc
April 4, 2011, 07:05 PM
Nailclippers for backup, check.


Nope, box cutter.

Glenn Dee
April 4, 2011, 07:50 PM
A .357 should handle any shape of human being... even one just out of the joint and all puffed up.

Nnobby45
April 4, 2011, 08:24 PM
The combat commanders are just too big, plus I don't like cocked and locked concealed on my hip IWB.



That's funny. Mine feels just heavy enough to let me know it's there and how comforting it is.:D

Have to admit, though, that my Kimber CDP2, with it's light weight, is starting to gain some favor----when I carry a 1911.

Most of the time I'll have a Sig. P220 or P229 .40. The weight feels just fine.;)

armoredman
April 4, 2011, 08:27 PM
Yes, but please carry at LEAST a Speed Strip for a reload.

garryc
April 5, 2011, 05:48 AM
I was considering that option. Simply Rugged makes a speed loader holder for concealment, that looks ok. Maybe two of them.

http://www.simplyrugged.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/speed_loader_pouch1.jpg


I have to wonder what good having a gun would have been at that moment. I had carpel tunnel surgery on the 24th and my hand was stitched and wrapped. Still isn't healing right.

threegun
April 5, 2011, 06:10 AM
JohnSK,

"Never heard of X" is evidence of the ignorance

Funny how I hear of murder, rape, car jacking, home invasion, etc pretty regularly yet never this. While it may not be evidence it certainly makes it less common.

When one makes a statement it is incumbent on the person making the statement to provide evidence supporting it, not on others to provide evidence that it is false. Attempting to shift the burden of proof is considered a logical fallacy and also poor form in a debate.


No it is incumbent upon the person making the initial claim to do so. In this case it was alleged that OC's are at a high risk of being attacked while offduty by former inmates now free while out in public. Until that is proven then your burden of proof has not yet shifted to me. We do agree that it is poor debate form. Remember I asked why and asked for proof. I was given links to CO's being attacked but not by former inmates.

The links you provided were somewhat unhelpful. One occured while the CO was on duty in the prison.

Correctional Officer Edwards Pounds succumbed to injuries sustained two months earlier when he was assaulted by an inmate at the Neuse Correctional Institution. He was struck several times by the inmate and sustained serious injuries on November 17, 2009.

another was a hit ordered by an active inmate via cell phone. The other seems to be a former inmate wanting the OC's gun while the OC was on duty escorting an inmate to the DR.

Look I'm not saying that it can't or doesn't happen. It does appear to be rare just by the diffuculty you guys are having in finding actual accounts of it happening. Sixteen links provided and still little or no proof.

Why haven't you asked the others to prove it? I believe it is because it is reasonable to ASSUME that this is the case. It sounds logical to be so concerned. Still until it is proved it is unnecessary to disprove.

garryc
April 5, 2011, 06:34 AM
One sentence threw this post way off topic and polarized it. Probably time to close the door on it.


LOCK DOWN!!

shortwave
April 5, 2011, 08:18 AM
garryc,

With two family members as CO's you have my respect and understanding.


You came on here with a very legitimate concern and there's been a few 'off topic' ignorant statements made. Consider them for what they are as unfortunately there are some that have zero concept of the character of many that float in and out of the penal system in which you work in daily.

You have every right to be concerned.

So, back on topic.

Are you locked into either a 9mm or 40cal. in a semi auto?

Also, what least capacity weapon would you feel comfortable with?

Lokpyrite
April 5, 2011, 08:31 AM
I used to wear a fanny pack often until I realized that it takes too darn long to present from the pack. You can carry IWB a G21, I know, I do it everyday.

threegun
April 5, 2011, 09:48 AM
You came on here with a very legitimate concern and there's been a few 'off topic' ignorant statements made. Consider them for what they are as unfortunately there are some that have zero concept of the character of many that float in and out of the penal system in which you work in daily.



Ignorant statements made? Again there has been virtually zero evidence to back up the OP's concerns and you call me ignorant. Thats real intelligent.

I also expressed my respect for the job CO's do. I don't have the testicular fortitude to do the job myself.

That said I will not be called ignorant and other names for simply asking a question. Especially when my question was valid.

You have every right to be concerned.



As does every American citizen. Seems we are far more likely to be victimized by a recidivist former inmate than the CO who watched over them in the prison.

That said CO's are citizens just like us and are just as likely to be victimized by a recidivist former inmate that they NEVER guarded.

threegun
April 5, 2011, 09:54 AM
Lokpyrite,

I used to wear a fanny pack often until I realized that it takes too darn long to present from the pack. You can carry IWB a G21, I know, I do it everyday.


I have carried my 21 in the small of my back IWB. I couldn't sit without pain though.....very uncomfortable.

My uncle mikes side kick pack is easy to get to the gun. Heck with good situational awareness its faster than most carry methods. I just pop open the gun compartment and slip my hand onto the gun without anyone the wiser.

Heck if not for my fanny pack I would probably carry a little gut popper with some of my Florida clothing.

Capt Charlie
April 5, 2011, 11:44 AM
One sentence threw this post way off topic and polarized it. Probably time to close the door on it.

LOCK DOWN!!

Yeah, after ninety-some posts, this one's about wound down anyhow.

Closed.